Mini #1647: Eine Kleine Nacht-Mord, Game Over

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: LlamaFluff

:3

[TellTaleHeart]

I wasn't crazy about it. What exactly did you like?

What did

you

think about LlamaFluff's reaction?

Vote GIF

His response to Equinox putting him in the group that has played with CES and calling him scum was to question him being in there. Not trying to actually question the validity of it but concerned with being a part of it.

Would also vote UT

I wasn't crazy about it either. I got a bad gut feeling from it.

The little blurb on GIF was kind of

bleh

. GIF's Post 18 read to me more like a knee-jerk reaction to seeing himself in a list he wasn't expecting to see himself in and, in my opinion, was relatively innocuous. The core logic behind the vote is also pretty strained; I would actually expect scum to have a stick up his butt about the tell being brought up at all. There's also the matter of the UT read. Llama forgoes analysis of UT's posting or a vote for UT for a glib sentence about being willing to vote him. This is strange since UT has a lot more content to analyze and already has a vote on him. If you really did think UT was scum, that seems like it would be the logical place to start. I can more easily see a plausible reason why Llama, as scum, wouldn't vote UT: he wants to avoid being accused of OMGUS and the wagon possibly sticking.

My first impression is that LlamaFluff's opener is artificial because the action (the vote, analysis) doesn't seem to

quite

follow from the stated read (UT is scum). I'm alright with my vote.

[TellTaleHeart]

UT I would vote because he should know better than to do what he did

, but a lot of people just like to do reckless things because they apparently find doing reckless things fun or something like that. If it was someone that is super conservative as a player and takes little to no risks, I would have jumped on it hard.

UT is more of a "does whatever" type who will just do scummy things that they think is justified or thinks aren't scummy when a majority of the players will think it is.

I do think he is more likely scum than just about anyone else because of it, but at the same time GIF is scummier.

@_@
I'm a little lost now. The bolded sentences don't really mesh for me but maybe that's a consequence of me not knowing UT.

If UT is a "does whatever" player that tends to go against the grain, why would him putting you at L-1 be scummy?

[TellTaleHeart]

This all still doesn't make sense to me. :S

Maybe it will in the morning.

[TellTaleHeart]

Morning. I see I'm late to the party again.

Apologies. Am travelling today, will be back full time tomorrow.

UNVOTE:
Need to see this.

[TellTaleHeart]

why are you waiting of Futan? what are you waiting on him for?
do you think he's trying to wait it out so he didn't have to comment on or participate in the Llama wagon?

I have reads on everybody except him and his earlier post implies he'll be back very shortly. I'm willing to wait for the catch-up.
I doubt this is a ploy to wait out the Llama wagon.

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: onion
I was going to re-vote Llama, but I like this a lot better.

[TellTaleHeart]

do you think there's something inherently scummy about what he posted

Yes!
In a nutshell: what Equinox said.

The writing is painfully stilted to begin with: "They are being useful to the town, and helping us get good reads on them. This is Pro-town and should be encouraged. I really don't like Tripod's playstyle, and i believe he is hurting the town with his antics. This should be discouraged." For someone who has "notes" on what's been happening, it's shocking that he doesn't seem to have an opinion on LlamaFluff. At least not one that's clearly stated. For the calls for engagement from LlamaFluff, he hasn't shown any evidence of reading what Llama's already said. Most of the real-estate of the post is filled with summary that leads nowhere and it has a "look busy" feel to it.

So far, I'm working from townreads on: Equinox, UT, Bubs, Derangement, prawneater, and GuyInFreezer.

[TellTaleHeart]

I unvoted because Llama was at L-1 and the catch-up from Futan was promised in a short time frame. Otherwise I wouldn't have unvoted.

[TellTaleHeart]

24 hours is not an unreasonable time to suspend the vote. The "meantime" we're talking about is negligibly short.

[TellTaleHeart]

No, it's not. I didn't have any scum reads on anyone else, which is actually most of the reason why I was insistent on getting Futan's catch-up.

[TellTaleHeart]

I have reads on everybody except him

I didn't have any scum reads on anyone else

So you thought everyone else was town?

If that were the case, the following would be true:
a) You'd know that your own reads were wrong and wouldn't be so happy to go along with them
b) You'd damn well have kept your vote on the only person whom you weren't townreading

I call bullshit.

I respond to your "bullshit" with a "fuck that noise."

For one, I don't know how that would tell me my reads were wrong. And for another, I'm not voting someone I'm not scum reading for the sake of "having a vote out there," which I don't equate with being productive anyway. You're scumreading me for not having the same attitude towards the vote you do.

[TellTaleHeart]

You don't even know what the reads are, so why are you acting like you do?

[TellTaleHeart]

Also, I'm operating under the assumption of two scum in the game.

[TellTaleHeart]

question where's the question? which questions are directed at me? I'm pretty sure i've stated my read, its that either llama or tripod is a scum, but not both. I don't think Bubs is scum, or Derangement. I don't have much of a read on much of the others, but that'll happen at some point i'm sure. I'll very probably vote for either Tripod or Llama after llama responds.

If you don't think Llama's already answered your question, I very much doubt you'll find anything he says at this point satisfactory.

[TellTaleHeart]

Also, I'm operating under the assumption of two scum in the game.

...why?

Before I signed up for the game, I stalked petroleumjelly's posting history in the Mafia Discussion section of the forum.
(I also stalked a few old games of some of the players.

I'm watching you.

)

I found this thread: Multiple Scum Groups
Specifically, this post:

The problem is, nowadays mods seem to think "more scum = better games." As has proven just fine by mountainous games, you don't need a lot of scum to make a game interesting and tight. In fact, I think sometimes

less

scum tends to be more interesting. I think the problem is Mods do not want to use a plethora of Townies, and so when they add lots of Town power roles, they figure that can balanced by giving scum more numbers and their own powers.

Since the "norm" for 13 player games is 3 scum, I'm roughly extrapolating that to 2 scum for 12 player (essentially 11 player due to the night start).

[TellTaleHeart]

You should tell us your reads on everyone were at the time and whether or not they've changed since then. At the moment, with the information available to me, it's hard not to conclude that you have lied somewhere.

At the time, I had townreads on everyone who I listed before in Post 143 for various reasons. I had a slight town read on you based on simple intuition: I didn't believe you would be so brazen to talk about the night kill like you did as scum in Post 13. onion was another slight townread because I thought the tone of his opening Post 37 sounded relaxed and unforced; that was another gut read. That left LlamaFluff's slot, who I was scumreading (and still am), and Futan. This was cause for me to remove the vote and await content from Futan, which I believed would be posted promptly. From there reads could be re-evaluated, but there was no one at the time I wanted to move my vote to.

[TellTaleHeart]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: LlamaFluff

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm saying it's an observation I see much more likely as coming from TOWN than SCUM

it affects my read of Llama, not necessarily my read of onion

do you get what I'm saying?

Not really. What if onion is scum?

[TellTaleHeart]

But you're not ignoring it. @_@

People in this game confuse me.

[TellTaleHeart]

You didn't think to put the explanation in with the vote at the time.

I sometimes don't, but it has to do with the writing process. Sometimes I just vote and write up an explanation when I get the chance. I'm slow.

For instance, I'm still working on a post about LlamaFluff.

[TellTaleHeart]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Marquis

[TellTaleHeart]

So I'm townreading everyone else other than
- prawnstar
- Futan/Marquis
- Onion Bulb

I'll give some time to think which to vote between these.

Same, except my three are: Marquis, CDB, and LlamaFluff.

[TellTaleHeart]

Quick and dirty:

I vacillate back and forth on the LlamaFluff read,

something

doesn't seem quite right though.
CDB's push on onion and me are rigid, forced, and scummy, especially the one on onion.
Marquis' catch-up apparently consists of a consensus town read Equinox on the night 0 kill speculation. That's an easy throw.

[TellTaleHeart]

Speaking of people posting on the site and lurking in this game, CDB's been posting on the site and lurking in this game. ^_^

[TellTaleHeart]

Does he prefer to play town or scum? (CDB, you can answer this if you see it first.)

[TellTaleHeart]

Lurkers annoy me greatly. day 1's are a great time to lynch all lurkers because it improves the rest of the game, and there's no information day 1 anyway, so they are just as likely to be scum as anyone else. I'm not sure our N0 start changes this. please don't lurk.

So what's your read on either Marquis or CDB?

[TellTaleHeart]

Alrighty!

[TellTaleHeart]

Does he prefer to play town or scum? (CDB, you can answer this if you see it first.)

Would it make a difference?

Yes!

People who prefer one alignment over another are generally going to put more effort into the one they prefer.

[TellTaleHeart]

Day One, Vote Count #11

LlamaFluff – 3 – prawneater, Untrod Tripod, onion
Marquis – 3 – TellTaleHeart, GuyInFreezer, Derangement
onion – 1 – ChannelDelibird
prawneater - 1 - Onion Bubs
Untrod Tripod – 1 – LlamaFluff

With

11 alive

it takes

6

to lynch and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is

March 5, 2015, at 6:45 AM PST

.

Not Voting – 2 – Equinox, Marquis

I think Llama and CDB's votes, especially CDB's, are stale and are in need of some refreshing (either refined reasoning or a new read). I'm still anxiously awaiting Marquis' catch-up.

[TellTaleHeart]

Hello, I'm here - an afternoon of board games turned into a full day unexpectedly. Full catch up tomorrow or lynch me

hi. it's snowing really hard. i'm cold. so i'm inside all day.

i have some business to take care of rn. then after that, i'll try my best to devote some time to mafia. thanks and maybe!cya later tonight.

Stood up. Twice.

[TellTaleHeart]

TellTale, in swapped your vote from Llama to Marquis in 248, but said that you suspected Marquis, CBD and Llama in the next post. why is Marquis a better vote than Llama? say something about CBD while you're at it.

You talk too much and you don't listen enough.

[TellTaleHeart]

think scum would at least have come in with a "hey I will do something" and actually do it or at least a fakeclaim to try and get a wagon off of them.

Right, what's this based on?

[TellTaleHeart]

not sure if this was in the post earlier but strongish town on ut and nullscum onion.

more tonight. the post is moving

*looks at watch*

Alright-y then...

[TellTaleHeart]

I liked your drunken rooster better, UT.

[TellTaleHeart]

Why are you voting prawn, UT?

[TellTaleHeart]

UT

Why are you voting prawn, UT?

This can now be an open question, by the way.

[TellTaleHeart]

wait

can we finally do this?

It's fine if you don't want to answer my question. Could you please just acknowledge my existence?

[TellTaleHeart]

What did you think of everything that Marquis (not NJAC) had posted on the things that he had read?

I think it's shrug-worthy. None of the reads look particularly legit.

[TellTaleHeart]

*shrug*

[TellTaleHeart]

*mrph* I've gotten so detached from this game.
It's mostly because I feel like I'm on a different wavelength than everyone else about what they think is scummy.

UT

Why are you voting prawn, UT?

This can now be an open question, by the way.

I don't like the way he's arguing with llama (nor the way he is ONLY arguing with llama)

Is that scummy?
In terms of the argument over the last umpteen pages, I actually think Llama's pedantic approach to his argument is kind of scummy. It's hard to see the core of the argument. Here's the closest I can get to it:

This guy is doing NOTHING and yet no one pays attention to him. When he does decide to actually do something, its scummy. Dismissing a case as OMGUS, changing reasoning behind votes afterwards, lurking, the whole onion thing which immediately changed to "reaction testing" when called on it. He needs to be dead here. The last thing game related thing he has said is "Marquis lurking is not indicative of alignment - I would lynch them for it". I mean, that's literally saying "I would lynch this player over something that my own meta says is a null tell" while having avoided raising a case on anyone for over a week.

Frankly, this isn't a good case. Apparently, it's left to the reader to make the connection from point A (this such-and-such behavior) to point B (the reason why prawn is more likely scum for it) and I can't make that connection for

anything

Llama brought up. Can anybody walk me through this?

[TellTaleHeart]

Spoiler:

[TellTaleHeart]

*Hey, What Do I Have to Do to Someone to Talk to Me Here?*

Most of what people are writing walls posts for right now are complete and total bullshit that is of use to fucking no one and, as a result, the game lacks focus. Like a cat chasing a laser beam, we're now on to our new

**~~shiny~~**

sns wagon when there's no cogent reason for it.

*

There's no reason for an onion wagon. The reasons for his read on LlamaFluff he gave after his initial wagon were very likely genuine.

You don't want to read onion's posts, UT? Don't! No one is making you.

Personally, I haven't read an onion post since page 7 and I'm getting along just fine!

*

There's no reason for an sns wagon right now. Onion Bubs was likely town and, though it contained a few lapses, sns's catch-up was acceptable.

*

The reasons behind the prawn wagon have yet to be established. Llama's case in Post 356 are cobbled together "tells" but it hardly establishes proof of guilt. Why were they scummy?

At this point, I would lynch either NJAC or LlamaFluff.

[TellTaleHeart]

Derangement, could you be a dear and vote NJAC or Llama, please?

[TellTaleHeart]

CDB, it would make me really happy if you could either vote NJAC or LlamaFluff

or

explain why they're town.

[TellTaleHeart]

There's 2 days. The time for wait-and-see has expired.

VOTE: LlamaFluff

[TellTaleHeart]

What do you think of the votes and cases against onion?

Realistically, I think they're more out of policy and annoyance than anything. Reasons given for him being scum are pretty superficial.

[TellTaleHeart]

Don't be a drama queen.

[TellTaleHeart]

I think "PR-hunting" is overstating it and I think you're projecting something sinister onto it that's not really there.

[TellTaleHeart]

Please quote what onion said that has your panties in a bunch, UT.

[TellTaleHeart]

The rolefishing. The insults were the reason I've pretty much tuned him out at this point.

[TellTaleHeart]

Marquis claimed VT. How is that PR hunting?

[TellTaleHeart]

I'll give you that as a reaction test it fails on a hilarious number of levels since

he links NJAC to the post where Marquis claimed

.

But if onion were scum here trying to draw out a claim from presumably town-NJAC, the implication would have to be that onion thought Marquis was fakeclaiming town. This isn't a likely story given that Marquis was at L-1 and, as town, would have absolutely no reason to lie as a town special.

I think it's a lot more likely to be a castrated, feckless reaction test more than anything.

[TellTaleHeart]

...what part of this are you not getting?

What part of this are

you

not getting?

onion's story for why he did it (he was trying to catch NJAC in a lie) fits what happened a lot better than PR hunting.

[TellTaleHeart]

why the fuck would you even ask unless you thought you could find a power role?

You're playing by rational rules, though. Of course everything is going to seem off-kilter in the explanation.

no i don't trust marquis' claim. he lied to us about catching up, so now i don't trust a word he said. he's still a terrible lurker and lair and a good target for a policy lynch. NJAC could have done any of three things, and they would have replaced Marquis' claim because we can't trust it. he could have also claimed VT, which is what probably would have happened, and that would be null. he could have refused to claim, and that would totally mean something, and questions would ensue and i'd probably end up with a much better read on him than i do now, which is what i want. OR he could claim something else which would probably be really scummy and hey that's a good read on him too. good reads are good.

You're essentially scum reading the dog logic, which isn't necessarily scum indicative.

[TellTaleHeart]

Y'all need to let onion speak!

I'm the one who brought it up, though. :S

[TellTaleHeart]

ChannelDelibird's post 567 is the most convincing for me re: LlamaFluff, though, so my vote might go there.

I'm screaming like a maniac about the prawn wagon and CDB's off-the-cuff, vague comment is really what's doing it for you?!

>:(

[TellTaleHeart]

This game still feels like an out-of-body experience for me.

[TellTaleHeart]

No. o.O

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm in a weird mood right now.

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't buy it.

[TellTaleHeart]

That's fine because I don't think he would.

[TellTaleHeart]

Stretch

It's that I think you're scum and pushing a shit case.

There's your assurance.

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: NJAC

[TellTaleHeart]

I slept on it last night and I'm more doubtful today than I was last night.

My immediate reaction to the claim was that it was fake because there is already a flipped town information special. The convoluted reasoning around protecting Marquis' slot also didn't sound right to me.

Now that Llama's explained it a little more it

might

be possible and I'm not sure how solid the set-up speculation is.

[TellTaleHeart]

Did anyone say scum tracker? o.O

I'm thinking more along the lines of he's completely making it up.

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't understand you, UT.

[TellTaleHeart]

You can't use setup speculation to judge LlamaFluff's claim because he is on the Normal Review Group, and, as scum, he would have the know-how and experience to claim exactly what is going to fit.

There's only one flip. Even assuming he has scum-knowledge, I don't know how you can support this claim that Llama would somehow

know

what fits when so little of the set up is known.

[TellTaleHeart]

This is not a post. :S

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: LlamaFluff

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: LlamaFluff

If you were going to vote me regardless of what my result was why did you move to the mislynch yesterday?

This a question with an answer that would be obvious had you read yesterday and it's worded in the most slanderous way possible.

You're full of it.

[TellTaleHeart]

Exactly

[TellTaleHeart]

No, you are just now paying off your move of getting in a NJAC mislynch due to a deadline scramble. If you were going to vote me no matter what happened, moving off my wagon to a mislynch is incredibly scummy. Is your first instinct

Vote TTH

I'm not sure where you're getting "I was going to vote you no matter what." You're bringing that.

[TellTaleHeart]

Given that lack of anything else, im going to assume that is what you are thinking until you provide anything that could be remotely interpreted as anything else.

There's a track. Not that you care since you're admittedly making shit up.
Post 676 and Post 677

[TellTaleHeart]

I really don't like the day 1 duel between you and Prawn, but think that it's massively unlikely for you to be both scum.

Right, and where did that disappear into? He absolutely swore up and down prawn was scum and he couldn't die fast enough. Apparently it was claimed by the smokey haze of "wah wah, you were going to vote me regardless,

mislynch

."

[TellTaleHeart]

Oh,

now

you're going back over my ISO?

What did you think of everything that Marquis (not NJAC) had posted on the things that he had read?

I think it's shrug-worthy. None of the reads look particularly legit.

Speaking of reads that don't look legit, you are completely content to let go of your tirade against prawneater who hasn't showed up yet.

Also, the points about "I'm following the VT claim" is a bunch of crap and it's the only way you can rationalize keeping up the fake claim charade. You already talked about how you thought the scum who was more "expendable" was the one who was going to be sending in the kill. By that logic, UT would've definitely been in deeper cover than, I don't know, prawneater and wouldn't have sent in the kill. But you didn't track your suspects, you tracked someone who you thought was a VT claim and someone who wasn't getting lynched anyway. A strategy that would've helped would've been to target someone you thought was a special so you could

at least

confirm your role. You wouldn't have even needed to out the person or the action right away.

Or

you could've attempted to catch the night kill.

Either

of those make more sense from the perspective of a town tracker because it yields more useful information that wouldn't be apparent from the thread. What you claimed to do proves precisely nothing. It doesn't prove your role, and it doesn't even theoretically clear UT. The only thing you've proven thus far is that you can cold-read UT which isn't that great of a feat. It doesn't make sense from a real town tracker, but it makes perfect sense from someone faking it.

Your logic ties your own shoelaces together and now you're tripping.

[TellTaleHeart]

Now that Derangement doesn't buy the claim she's magically scum too. Isn't it funny how these things work out?

[TellTaleHeart]

I do love that you are trying to stop UT from being considered clear though. Are you that desperate to try and find mislynches already? What part of my arguing UT is town is wrong?

UT's likelihood of being town is effected by factors

way

beyond your claimed "action" which is valued somewhere around half a pig fart. That's the nature of the tracker negative though, and that all has to do with how

you

claimed your use of action. Now you're trying to turn it around on me.
I'm not the one who's trying to act like trackers can get a definitive innocent. They can't and I didn't make it that way.

[TellTaleHeart]

Ahoy. Reading through now.

Hi GC! ^_^

I have nothing more to add at this time.

[TellTaleHeart]

As for questions, ask em if you got em.

Would you vote Llama?

[TellTaleHeart]

It's basically I agree with CDB's early suspicions of TTH's play, and then her complete detachment from the game is not the TTH-town I know and love, and therefore I think it might be TTH-scum not wanting to play because it isn't nearly as fun as being town.

I feel like I have so little to say when most of the things in here get caught in my mental filter.

Also, Anti's not here to entertain me.

For instance, literally everything Llama is hammering on about NJAC, where everyone has the benefit of hindsight and he doesn't want to admit it.

[TellTaleHeart]

I think I might help with that, actually, if nothing changes with her next post.

Nothing's going to change. Go ahead.

I also have no intention of claiming.

[TellTaleHeart]

onion's Post 858 is actually

really

good. GC's case on Llama is solid as well.

I think Derangement's sudden willingness to lynch me is weird.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm fully expecting UT to go after Llama tomorrow. UT and GC, I think your onion case is bunk and you shouldn't push him. onion, keep voting Llama and you should be good to go. GC, you already suspect Llama and that is where your vote should go tomorrow.

The two votes for GC are really silly. prawn if you're town, and I think you are, you should go back to Llama.

[TellTaleHeart]

How is this a hard request?

It is not a hard request. It is a useless request. One that I will not allocate any more time to because I do not have it.

[TellTaleHeart]

On an unrelated note, TellTaleHeart not having any scum meta as a solo player is really quite annoying. Do you have any off-site games, TellTaleHeart? If yes, could you please link me any scum games?

Nope.
I have scum games as Heartless and Southern Gothic, but this implies you already knew about those.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm beginning to get paranoid about Derangement and GC

My best guess is Derangement and CDB. They're leaving you alive because your reads are off.

[TellTaleHeart]

Actually.

UNVOTE: CDB
VOTE: TTH

Disappointing.

GIF also voted for TTH. we have enough confirmed townies for vote analysis to maybe be useful. i'll do that.

How does the fact it was a random vote play into your analysis? o_O

[TellTaleHeart]

Was out for the weekend. Apologies, will post sometime.

[TellTaleHeart]

RL is absolutely kicking my ass right now. I may do a catchup over the weekend and I may not.