Newbie 1572 - Chicken Parmigiana Mafia (Over)

[BRantz]

Hi everyone. Will also be around tomorrow afternoon with a post. (What have I gotten myself into, no lynch and no kill?!)

[BRantz]

Reads after reading/isos in alphabetical order:

Bitmap: Probably town. I really like 50, 70, and 255. I like the aggressive stance taken in his positions, and the way he attacks his concerns with other players.

DDD: Probably Town. 34 feels strange, its basically saying "look at all this content that someone else made that I was trying to make!". But I like the way 63 follows up on it, and his answer to Bit's question there. I really like 64, 110, and 262.

Diego: Null-scum. 62 hits hard in a good way. 125 seems decent as well. I don't understand his confusion about bitmap feeling Pramitz was being appeasy with saying "Am I scum?" vs him saying no. Though he seems to be confused as to what bitmap was responding too in the first place in 109 and 132. Still a weird thing to harp on. 133 is good. and 135 is awesome. His reads list in 147 is somewhat suspect. Don't like his seeming insistence that lurking is a scum only thing, nor his argument about fluff posting. 199 is awful. Also very weird that bitmap goes from a strong townread, to a scum read without being mentioned at all in between, but bitmap had voted Diego in the interim, and his post change reasons are bad. I don't like the buddying in 236 much either. His train of thought starting with the "These are the lynchable people today" statement is completely awful, and ends with him saying that the town should lynch a town read of his. 287 feels like posturing to me.

Drixx: Null-very slightly town. Not a fan of 48, it seems too forced. 57, and 72 are bad as well. Though he doesn't seem to be afraid of confrontation, which is mildly town. 74 is just one big fallacy. The whole argument around theory that happens in these posts is somewhat pointless, but Drixx comes out looking okay with 145. 176 seems to feel that the IC should do the work for him, and just give out reads and such whenever asked, it feels like a way to look like he is trying to be productive without adding anything. I like 183. I don't like him asking people for why letters is scum over and over, take the "many re-reads" you've done and tell people why you don't think he is scum, and why you think your candidate is a better lynch target. This feels like trying to look like contribution without doing anything again. I like 308.

ika: Scum. 170 seems to be actively trying to hinder discussion, which is awful. 181 is hilarious given what he had done up to that point. 271 seems awful, where did the pram suspicion come from? I also don't like ika's "I need to use kid gloves with newbies" thing, seems like an easy way for him to keep hiding in lurkville. 280 nice tu quoque fallacy you got here. I really hate 305 and 307.

VOTE: ika

kscope/numQ: Null-town. 32 don't like the self-deprecation here, but it feels kinda town. 87 I like. 163 feels like a town sub out to me. I like 209 from numQ, though partially because some of my feelings mirror his there (on the looking for something to latch on to).

Pramitz: Null-slight town. 117 feels forced/ he is trying to plant that he is somewhat sheeping in peoples minds. 131 How is a null read ever "solid"? Don't like that at all. 165 is really bad. So is 167. I like 214 though, it is the most he has really shown how his thought processes work all game. I like 222 as well. I like the beginning of 279, but what is with people in this game deciding they should lynch their townreads?!

Zombie: Null-very slight town. I like 80, 96, and 196. But there isn't a lot there in most of her posts. I like her questions though.

[BRantz]

oh my second quesiton has a lot of reason behind it. im waiting for people to legit answer it though

There are only 3 people that could possibly have a reason behind this question in a Matrix6 game:

1. Jailor
2. Doctor
3. Scum

These three players are the only players that could have any information as to the no kill last night. The jailor knows he either saved the townie or stopped the scum. The doctor knows he saved the townie. The scum knows he either was jailed or the target was healed.

I believe this is a scum slip to ask this question. The Jailor/Doctor needs to stay hidden from scum, so I see no way that either would ask this question. Scum would love to know the answers in hope to smoke out the Jailor/Doctor for the next night kill.

With this slip, your lurking and discussion-killing activity Day 1, I move my vote.

VOTE: ika

L-1

There is a lot wrong with your reasoning here, and you leave out a possibility that ruins your entire hypothesis. Feels like a weak bus to me.

[BRantz]

First, it is possible for a doctor/jailor to ask this question to see if anyone says the same person they protected last night, and how many people say it. They can potentially narrow down the pool of potential scum by doing so. (I don't agree that it is a good question, but that isn't part of this discussion).

The main issue is that your theory completely omits the possibility that there is a 1-shot bulletproof in the game which makes your entire thought process fall apart.

To me your explanation looked like you didn't want to just join the ika wagon "naked" and felt you needed to find a different reason than the ones that have been talked about. Hence a weak bus.

[BRantz]

I didn't say they were your reasons. I said that is a potential reason those roles might ask.

[BRantz]

I think it is a loaded question, and it is mostly useless speculation. Hence why I have conscientiously chosen not to answer it.

[BRantz]

Wow Drixx, you're really laying into him. While I mostly agree with a lot of what you say, it's just a game man. You've made your point.

Drixx is being pretty nice actually. A hell of a lot nicer than most people are in arguments like that anyway.

@ika: You aren't even going to acknowledge anything I said about you? Oh wait, thats right, you think any reason people think you are scum is bullshit.

[BRantz]

311 Ika. Where I give all of my reads from my catch up.

[BRantz]

Reads:
Town: zombie, Brantz, drixx, number q, ddd.

Null: Pramitz

Scummy: bitmap

Scum: ika

Great! Why?

[BRantz]

This is interesting.

Lets go here instead.

VOTE: Diego1487

[BRantz]

This is interesting.

Lets go here instead.

VOTE: Diego1487

Why? With ika at L-1 and sitting there until he stopped playing BS games (first with the threats, now with the pretending to know things that he will of course never elaborate upon), the longer he sat there, the more suspicious it became for him to remain alive. There's more than ample reason at this point to pull the trigger, so only an over the top cautious scum team would just leave him sitting there at L-1 for days if he were actually town. I've never seen more blatant flailing in my life than ika this day phase, and so I gotta ask: why the vote swap to diego without reasoning? Was there some reason you felt the need to take that obvious "why is he still alive if he's town?" pressure away?

It would be one thing if you had presented some thoughts on why you didn't think ika is scum or why you think diego is ... but you just made some comments that mean nothing and swapped your vote. So when you said "This is interesting.", I take it you meant the post you were making at the time?

So first off, just because I didn't lay out the reasons I changed my vote doesn't mean there weren't any. Second, what happened to calm, civil drixx? I am not sure your freak out about me unvoting is even a little warranted. Third, I have talked about diego, in fact I even said that he was my second scum read when I gave my reads upon replacing in. So logically, when I decided ika shouldn't be on the block anymore, I switched.

Now, if I thought you might actually be interested in discussing it, instead of just yelling, I could be convinced to talk with you about why I don't think ika should be the lynch today. But for now, just calm the fuck down.

[BRantz]

@Drixx: You are right, I may have read more into your tone than intended. But no where in that post do I attack your character, so there is no ad hominem attack. Very strangely text tone is very important in this game drixx, so people read into it, I was obviously wrong about what you wrote, my bad.

@DDD: I do realize drixx isn't the only person in the game. At the time his post looked to me to be trying overly hard to throw a negative light on my change of vote, reading it again after I have slept it reads very differently. Also you cannot even possibly blame me for halting momentum on that wagon, ika had been at L-1 for like 5 days and nothing had happened. I am postulating that if he is scum (which I actually don't think he is) his buddy was already on the wagon. Also, he has not stated any roles (so no role guessing), just that he is pretty sure of what people's roles are, do you feel they are the same thing? Why?

@numQ: Drixx is pretty clearly town to me at this point. I changed my vote because I actually don't think ika is scum anymore. I have a little experience with his scum meta, and this doesn't seem to fit it, but also he actually gave us some game relevant information (in his reads). Yes speculating on roles is not worthwhile, which is why absolutely no one has asked him to elaborate on his reads I assume? But he actually seems to be at least trying to play again (which is very different than most of day 2 has been).

[BRantz]

Wait... What?

Been busier than expected this weekend. Will be around in a few hours assuming there wasn't actually a lynch.

[BRantz]

That is a conspiracy theory for the ages... and not one very well thought out.

VOTE: diego1487

Picking up where I left off yesterday.

[BRantz]

UNVOTE:

@zombie: While I agree that warning about L-1 probably should have been given (especially since this is a newbie game), you should get in the habit of counting the votes yourself before voting if it is close. There are plenty of times in the other types of games here that people will put someone at L-1 and say nothing, so it is worth getting used to. What is your suspicion of bitmap/ what caused the suspicion?

Why are people not using their votes? You would think we were in LyLo or MyLo.

VOTE: ForwhomtheJellyRolls

[BRantz]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: numberQ

Vote is largely because of what just happened in 526. (also sorry for being away everyone, weekends are tough for me)

For all of you not voting anyone, consider this, one of the best ways to get reactions out of people is to use your vote and create wagons. Discussion is all well and good, but by itself with nothing else going on you are very rarely going to find scum just because of it.

[BRantz]

Oh boy people voting me based on... oh thats right "gut" and "I can't put my finger on it". Really solid cases there boys.

[BRantz]

I am voting for who I think is scum right now.

I am not complaining about the lack of accompanying cases, I am complaining about how bad your cases are.

My counterpoint to you Jelly is look how well that turned out for the town.

I feel like Drixx is probably just going to tunnel for the rest of the day like he did against ika, and seraphim seems like an oddball to me, so I am not sure it is worth trying to argue anything with him. So would you like to talk about things Jelly? If so what do you have questions about?

[BRantz]

Not a lot considering I saw him as town before the flip. What about for you number?

[BRantz]

Naw, I am not saying you should have divined that ika was town, but you were unwilling to even talk about anything else yesterday. Even after ika calmed down and started to actually play again. I understand that ika had to die because we were approaching deadline and there was no other wagon. What I don't understand is that many days before that happened he calmed down from yelling at everyone and no one seemed to care at all.

[BRantz]

Your post reeks of the stench that is "I am scum caught for the 'wrong reasons'"

All you have proven is you have no idea how to read me at all.

@Jelly: I don't really understand Seraphim's playstyle, and he obviously doesn't understand mine. That is why I feel he is an oddball. I don't know why he feels the way he feels about anything, and as such it makes more sense for me not to try to convince him of anything. I realistically don't know how I would even try.

I am not saying I won't interact with them, I am just saying based on the information I have about the way they play (Drixx has already shown that my conception isn't true) I couldn't really interact with them in a meaningful way.

[BRantz]

That statement is valid I guess. Your point about reading someone incorrectly is still an idea of how to read them, even though it is wrong.

I retract that you have no idea how to read me. But you do read my play incorrectly.

[BRantz]

What you didn't like that Diego admitted his bias, and then voted you because of it?

[BRantz]

I've felt suspicious of you and Bitmap from the beginning. Not you individually, but y'alls interaction between each other bothered me. I felt Bitmap was scum on Day one, nothing changed. When I re-read the thread, I felt I found where you and Bitmap were talking within the game. I still feel I could be right about this, but we won't find out until after it's over.

Therefore, with early suspicion and what I feel I found, I realized I was trying really hard to make the puzzle pieces fit my grand scheme. That's wrong, and I'm not going to use that route anymore. I still have that you and Seraphim as my scum team, but I agree with the assertion that BRantz is acting very scummy today. With all that said, I believe lynching you today is the best play for our town. Of all of my scum reads, you are the most dangerous in the end game IMHO.

Let me ask you a few questions. If bitmap isn't scum, is DDD still scum in your opinion, or if DDD isn't scum is bitmap still scum? If the bitmap slot is your best scum read why are you voting DDD instead? If Seraphim is one of your top scum reads, how does that read affect your read of me/ what parts of the "cases" against my play do you agree with (and don't just say all of it, I want to know where your head is at)?

[BRantz]

No one in this game is even close to confirmed town. Your logic of, I have a strong town read on soneone, so someone else finding them scummy is scummy is just extremely bad.

My vote on numq has nothing to do with playstyle and everything to do with content.

Also don't twist what I said. All I said is there is zero reason not to be using votes. I never said it was scummy not to be.

[BRantz]

So deadline is in three days and we've like what, three pages of posting? Come on, people. I only have one vote, this needs to be a TEAM effort.

numberQ: convince me of zombiekitty scum. ZK is definitely null for me, show me some aspect of the posting that I'm missing.

QFT, but I am going to add, convince me that you aren't.

[BRantz]

Feel better Drixx, your actual health will always be more important than this game.

[BRantz]

Color me not surprised dave.

[BRantz]

All of your reasons to vote me have an awful lot of conjecture added to what actually happened. Seems like you really just wanted my play to fit your case and not the other way around.

[BRantz]

Also, wasn't the only game we were in together one where I was scum? Or were you in my first newbie on site too?

[BRantz]

So point by point.

1. My read on Diego was a lot more than just he had a slightly scummy reads list. Here is the whole thing which dave seemed to "overlook":

Diego: Null-scum. 62 hits hard in a good way. 125 seems decent as well. I don't understand his confusion about bitmap feeling Pramitz was being appeasy with saying "Am I scum?" vs him saying no. Though he seems to be confused as to what bitmap was responding too in the first place in 109 and 132. Still a weird thing to harp on. 133 is good. and 135 is awesome. His reads list in 147 is somewhat suspect. Don't like his seeming insistence that lurking is a scum only thing, nor his argument about fluff posting. 199 is awful. Also very weird that bitmap goes from a strong townread, to a scum read without being mentioned at all in between, but bitmap had voted Diego in the interim, and his post change reasons are bad. I don't like the buddying in 236 much either. His train of thought starting with the "These are the lynchable people today" statement is completely awful, and ends with him saying that the town should lynch a town read of his. 287 feels like posturing to me.

2. So me voting 3 different people over the course of two weeks is "jumping around"? Diego became fairly obviously not scum today, so while reevaluating I put my vote on Jelly because I had a gut bad feeling about him. As soon as I saw something outright scummy from a player I changed my vote to numQ. Your whole point against me is conjecture anyway.

3. Are you talking about me refuting Diego's theories as possible role fishing? I actually laid out exactly why it was wrong as part of that argument.

4. This isn't even really a point against me as scum so I don't know why you included it in your case. My natural response is that you apparently don't actually know how to read me either.

[BRantz]

The more I think about it, the more I actually want to go here. I actually kind of liked numQ's response to me asking him to prove he isn't scum.

VOTE: davesaz

THIS IS L-1.

[BRantz]

My case is a lot based on what I see as your contrived case against me (I do admit this could be colored by OMGUS).

I will let Seraphim or someone else talk to you about what their case on DDD was specifically.

[BRantz]

Lol Tell me why it is scummy that I see a contrived case, but admit there might be bias in my view diego? I'm all ears.

[BRantz]

If I get lynched, when I flip town I am going to laugh and laugh and laugh. This town's only hope is that there continues to be no night kills.

[BRantz]

And potentially Seraphim might be able to solve this. Though this thought process is based on Dave scum.

[BRantz]

So no response for me then diego? That's what I thought.

[BRantz]

While diego has been "obv" town his desperation attempt to stop the lynch when it finally looked like it could happen could be an associative tell between him and dave. It looks more possible that his crazy case against ddd was staged. If Dave ends up being scum I would add him to the list of potential scum.

[BRantz]

It's very different. A better association would be me jumping off the ika wagon yesterday.

I asked you a question near the bottom of page 25. I wasn't being facetious, I really want an answer.

[BRantz]

In 542 he's implying that Ika should have been easy to see as town -- perhaps he left the ika wagon to set up this moment.

This in and of itself isn't the end of the world, but you're not actively pushing these wagons. You're just starting to start them, or trying to get momentum going on them.

So I am only quoting this portion of the post, but real quick... which is it? Do you think I believed ika to be town, or do you think I knew?

As for this. Not actively pushing wagons? Isn't trying to get momentum moving on them exactly that? Give me one example of a place that I started a wagon just to start it.

[BRantz]

I did explain my vote for Jelly, just not at the time. It happened when talking to dave in the last few pages.

Agreed, you can get momentum on a wagon by voting... thus "pushing" the wagon.

Yeah, I started today on you, you were my largest scum read at the end of yesterday. Why are you implying it can't be both picking up where I was yesterday and your ridiculous theory? In truth, that very same theory is the reason I (and others) ended up unvoting you because you truly seemed to believe it in your defense of it as time went on. Yes it was my next post that unvoted you, but you are misrepping me. Those two posts happened a day or two apart. It isn't like I voted you, and then immediately unvoted you.

I am consistently surprised by how bad your cases are logically Diego. But luckily for you that is generally more of a town tell than scum tell.

[BRantz]

@numQ: Did you not read any of the exchange between dave and I? I think my reasons for voting dave are very clearly stated there, and then I state them again when he asks for the case against him. Your post was incredibly scummy to me in general (the one I voted you for). When I asked for you to prove to me you weren't scum I was looking for a few different responses. You responded as a town player would in my mind. That is all.

@Diego: It matters because things happened in the interim. I may not have been involved in the happenings, but that doesn't mean nothing happened. If that is your case against me, and don't worry I already know you are just going to explain it away as trying to buy town cred, how do you explain my play toward the end of yesterday differing completely from what you suspect me of?

@Seraphim and dave: One of you is town and one of you is scum, I'm like 95% sure. Whichever of you is town please solve this game for this town, the rest of them have very little hope otherwise.

[BRantz]

It isn't meant as an insult numQ. Just that the town is fairly obviously fairly inexperienced, and it just takes time to develop (Diego is a prime example of this, at the moment I feel like he makes some really awkward cases, but he is applying the effort and so over time I think he will be a very good mafia player).

Also normally no, not enough reason to put someone at L-1. But two days before deadline, it certainly is. Though the deadline is being pushed back right now while a replacement is being found.

[BRantz]

Though I probably could have phrased it in a nicer way.

[BRantz]

Welcome sns!

[BRantz]

If we get close to deadline and nothing has changed someone please hammer me. The town needs as much info as it can get at this point.

[BRantz]

Cool. Do what you gotta do. I am not a power role.

[BRantz]

I just want to point out that around half of the people voting me/intending to vote me are voting me because of letters who's play I can't answer for. But we are close enough to deadline that its either me or dave, and sns thinks it should be me.

[BRantz]

Let me ask you Jelly, what does scum ever have to gain by antagonizing the town? What is scummy about me realizing that literally no matter what I do this town is going to lynch me, just like happened to ika? I put all the information I have to give out there.

I am not going to speculate on a scum partner combination without a scum flip. That is dumb. People who are individually scummy are you (though that is still mostly gut), Dave, and as I said before I would take a hard look at Diego if dave actually flips scum (though otherwise I would just leave him alone).

You cannot effectively scum hunt for pairs until you have a scum flip to look at. Trying to build a scum team before that is just bad and wrong.

[BRantz]

Sorry, not sorry if I hurt your feelings.

[BRantz]

I have literally laid out all of the cases I have in the last 5 or so pages. It isn't my fault you won't or haven't read them.

[BRantz]

Jelly's wanting to have me play the game for him is pinging my scumdar again though. So take a look at him and dave specifically tomorrow.

[BRantz]

My dying thoughts are Dave, and Jelly are probable scum. Look at diego closely if Dave is scum. If dave isn't I would look at Seraphim.

I've known I won't make it out of today for a like 4 days. Glad we are all on the same page.

[BRantz]

@sns: His post 621 followed by our exchage starting at 630 is why I would give diego a close look if dave is scum.

[BRantz]

BRantz comes across as intelligent and thoughtful, which makes me believe his play should be more intentional than not.

This may be the nicest compliment I have ever gotten from someone who is about to lynch me. lol

[BRantz]

good luck. Have fun. You're welcome. Oh and I am still town.