Drawn on Arrival: The Movie: The Game (GAME OVER!)

[Bookitty]

Starting from the start of my suspicions of Estival:

In Frog Mafia WaffleGhost was confused about some of the most basic things, including what LOL meant. I, unsuspecting dupe that I was, was going along explaining things to him. He was trolling me and he was scum.

I got kind of a similar feel about the hydra questions here, but I was willing to wait and see.

I thought it was really odd that Estival claimed extensive experience with Titus tunnels and was still saying this:

can someone explain the site rules in regards to what it means to push the line or be worthy of a policy lynch? People drop the c**nt word left and right but others are banned for calling someone retarded. Is is it based on the mod and therefore dependent on the whims of the particular mod?

I don't understand the point of these questions other than to claim newb cred.

The early part of the ISO felt like alternation between claiming experience (or acting experienced) and then newbing it up with questions that didn't quite fit with that for me.

The shift in tone came for me between

eff, thats the third alt slip in less then two weeks. why did i even attempt to have an alt?

and this:

4nxi3ty also feel scummy to me as they asked me about bookitty and shaft, and the latter wasn't someone I mentioned so I wonder about guilty by association. Why did you ask me about shaft? Lack of follow through.

heartless, I think bookitty pointed out the dissonance pretty clearly. Why is honeybee a loser? I looked at her ISO and she had a couple of "will catch up" or "hard to get into this" posts which always ping me as off as well as the general lurkering.

I'd still like to look at Aristophanes and need to ISO it. I'm clearly not going to read the past of the game because I tried skimming it and its too much blah blah boring at this point. However, if you have any questions about today or specific people in ISO then shoot.

Also why don't you tell me what your reads of theamateur and aristophanes are?

Before that, there were a lot of cute things that I noticed that weren't really alignment relevant. Not understanding what was going on, not understanding the mechanics -- then suddenly scumhunter.

There are little slip-ups all along. I had said why I thought Psyche was conftown already; well, I commented that one.

1. Shaft cause I want more dicussion centered around him and 2. Bookitty to sorta gage what motivated your "these two are charming" comment

I read this completely differently than Estival from the start. To me they were clearly different and independent pushes. But Estival links them like they're the same question.

The same with Flubbernugget/Jackel. In a game this size, mistakes are bound to happen, I think. But Estival continues with them much longer than I think reasonable.

The Heartless-Mollie discussion is of especial interest to me since I had virtually the same discussion with BRO earlier in the thread.

[The Critic]

Votecount 2.13

estival (7) - Jackel98, Reina, Flubbernugget, Bookitty, Cheetory6, PeregrineV, Hostile Intent
shaft (6) - Heartless, BROseidon, Varsoon, Honey bee, estival, mastin2
Seraphim (2) - Boonskiies, Marquis
BROseidon (1) - Gilgamesh King Of Heroes
Flubbernugget (1) - Aristophanes
theamatuer (1) - Seraphim


Not Voting (5) - Shaft, Psyche, 4nxi3ty, pirate mollie, theamatuer

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(expired on 2015-03-17 18:00:00).

[Reina]

I don't have a ton of time to post today, so everyone's gonna get a thought summary instead of individual questions answered until probably tomorrow sometime.

I am REALLY confident in estival being scum here. I understand that the site he came from has a lot of very catty players but this is NOT immediately calling the people attacking her scum. This is her immediately trying to discredit the people who are attacking her, ESPECIALLY a person who he thought had ROLE INFORMATION against him, without actually calling either of us scum.

In addition, I think I've done pretty well at explaining my read on estival, and his response is to attack me for "defending jackal", which is completely untrue when I'm just attacking estival for his behavior, and I agree with bookitty that his behavior change and remarking on it being scummy to "act nice" while doing that himself earlier is very likely to be coming from scum.

I really feel that this isn't just "playstyle behavior", and that the people he's chosen to attack at the times he has pretty clearly points to a scum mindset.

[Heartless]

>:|

mollie, are you townreading Bookitty? Why?

she is in the town pile for the time being. is it just her entrance on d1 or is there more to it than that.

There are things that are

just

off.

She's going to great lengths to talk about how much she believes us about farside's invention and that's making me paranoid. There's also the recent behavior around the swirling Shaft and estival wagons. She's been working with you this whole time with her votes, which would make sense if you were town reading each other and trying to work more efficiently at game solving. Given that, it's weird she didn't acknowledge the Shaft wagon you're championing and went straight for a policy lynch vote on estival (Post 1833). That's an anomaly.

Another thing that really pinged me was the way she responded to Antihero a while back in Post 1319. When Anti outlined vague gut suspicion of her, she went

straight

for Anti's weak spot: guilt. One way I've seen scum try to shake Anti off their trail is to play on his shame and make him feel like a dick for pushing them. Irritatingly he usually backs off, especially if the person is question happens to have two X chromosomes . The most recent example where I had this problem was with Anti and Titus in Open 581. That game made me go on an hour long tirade about which parts of his brain he was thinking with and why he was falling for Titus' stupid AtE. I thought he learned his lesson, but I guess old habits die hard.

If Bookitty has experience with Anti or his hydras, which she indicated she did in Post 1553, she knows which of his buttons to push. The paranoid part of me says it's a manipulative ploy.

well I am falling for shaft's aTe in the hood which is very mild but he sounds so defeatist it is making me feel bad. so i think it is more that anti genuinely doesn't want to be a dick to some1 as likeable as boo. can you point me to the posts where she did that tho?

I am looking at the 2 wagons on d1 and they are pretty interesting. ika was lynched with 13 votes while what comes closest to a competing wagon is shaft at 4. so i am guessing there was a bit of bussing going on? of the 4 on shaft far flipped town while on ika bulge flipped town. I find the lack of a proper cs to be very interesting.

ok

bottom line

do you think we should lynch one of bro or sera b/c of it?

y/n

i say n

not today.

I just checked back over estuvia's posts and i am kind of seeing what is talking about with the rapid shift in tone. tempted to sheep gamma cos it will firm up a read. thing is they are claiming vengeful in which no1 is really gonna wanna hammer that unless we are pretty convinced that he is scum and if he is town scum aren't going near it. so its ugh but I feel like his role that I don't mind pl-ing and I am back to waffling on the read just cos of that shift in mood in when it clearly wasn't serving him.

Spoiler:

There's a trail from the ika flip that leads straight back to Shaft. Early on in Post 462, Shaft asked for a case on ika and refused to vote him. His opinion changed in Post 629 without much explanation and he occupied a late position on the wagon (9/14). The push on Cheetory was never any good either. Now a scum-driven counterwagon on a relatively easy target crops up while Shaft disappears into this mist of a mysterious neighborhood thread.

If he's got time to post in a neighborhood, he can come out here and post. Let's hear it.

[Reina]

There's a trail from the ika flip that leads straight back to Shaft. Early on in Post 462, Shaft asked for a case on ika and refused to vote him. His opinion changed in Post 629 without much explanation and he occupied a late position on the wagon (9/14). The push on Cheetory was never any good either. Now a scum-driven counterwagon on a relatively easy target crops up while Shaft disappears into this mist of a mysterious neighborhood thread.

Heartless I don't mean any of this personally.

I despise that you're dismissing estival as a "scum-driven counterwagon" when I think he's very clearly showing scum motivation in his posting after being attacked by Jackal, especially given how flawed I view most early attempts of finding scum through "this person was bussing/not bussing/didn't fit my expectations for behaving around X wagon". I think you're basing too much on your early town and scum reads and how they're voting and not actually examining the case on estival beyond dismissing it because of his playstyle.

I also think that scumhunting that way is very manipulatable, very likely to be incorrect this early because of how it's the 'default' way of attacking people on this site and scum try very hard to play around it, and that trying to find scum through examining individual people's motivations and behavior is much much more likely to actually find scum.

Lastly, I don't push my normal reads with this much confidence. I save these gigantic pushes and tirades for when I am actually confident enough that my opinion is correct based on the behavior of the person I'm pushing that I'm willing to say that I think my opinion is actually worth more than anyone else's RIGHT NOW, and then on the off-chance that I'm not dead afterwards usually go back into the background and let other people push their big scum reads. (relatively background at least, I'm still a pretty active poster regardless.)

I'm not trying to do any bullshit "I'm better than you so lynch my scum read" nonsense and I hate that kind of dickwaving. But I am damn good at reading relatively new players based on their behavior (Gay Mafia II http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4546939, Persona 3 FES http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6586663) and I think that estival is hitting those same types of behaviors.

okay now seriously i need to go do shit and not spend more time on this game today.

[4nxi3ty]

Also also

@4nx

, can you walk me through why you feel that estival's wild theories are more likely to come from town?

When I was still newish to mafia I had all sorts of wrong beliefs about roles and slips and jumped on them like I found gold. estival reminds me of this. And I think newer scum players are less likely to throw wild ideas out there that they know are wrong. "But estival is not new?" I consider 5 forums games as still new, especially off-site where the dedication to mafia may or may not be the same as here.

Who do you think is scum 4nx?

VOTE: SHAFT

[Heartless]

Heartless I don't mean any of this personally.

I assure you, I don't. And as much as I fuss at people, I hope no one is taking anything I'm saying personally either.

[Hostile Intent]

Boon, Marq, Gil, Aristo, Sera -- make a better case or make a better vote.

Anx, Shaft - vote.

Theam - where are you? What are your reads?

Psyche - stay fly.

pirate mollie - what up nigga

[Varsoon]

Poking my head in to say:
Jackel98, Reina, Flubbernugget, Bookitty, Cheetory6, PeregrineV, Hostile Intent, Seraphim
such a shite wagon.

[Hostile Intent]

You'd know a lot about shite wagons, wouldn't you?

[Honey bee]

I'll think about it, this was supposed to be an alt that let me make a new meta but since I slipped its screwed anyway. You may ask the following people any questions you have {ika, Titus, MathBlade, Grib, Ellie, etc}. I guess none of them are in this game anymore but whatever.

Do you have a good reason to withhold that meta? because I can think of some reasons why reina is wrong but it would be a bit assuming of me and I don't mind sheeping him either.

[Varsoon]

You'd know a lot about shite wagons, wouldn't you?

Don't take it so personally,
sign of guilt and all~

[Flubbernugget]

Poking my head in to say:
Jackel98, Reina, Flubbernugget, Bookitty, Cheetory6, PeregrineV, Hostile Intent, Seraphim
such a shite wagon.

Poking in my head to say

such a worthless post

[estival]

Lol, jackel has no reads but he's voting me.

Bookitty, you worked backwards to justify your read and didn't give a read on jackel.

You didn't respond to my question regarding what you expect town to do when under attack? Hide? Meow and bat your eyelashes?

Reina can barely get genders right, but his case on why shaft is not scum means shafts flip should give town info on him and his possible associates.


Honey bee, I'm not sure what you mean? You may speculate.

[Cheetory6]

but his case on why shaft is not scum means shafts flip should give town info on him and his possible associates.

Where is his case on why shaft isn't scum?
What do you think of mastin calling your vote on shaft a busvote?

[Cheetory6]

such a shite wagon.

Are you just looking at the playernames or are you actually looking at the case on her?

[Reina]

Reina can barely get genders right, but his case on why shaft is not scum means shafts flip should give town info on him and his possible associates.

If you want to be called she then set it on your profile, it's not hard

and I haven't ever made anything even remotely resembling a case on shaft.

[estival]

No, you gave a passive aggressive post to why you think shaft isn't scum.

Also if you couldn't tell my gender that means you haven't read my posts. I wonder why? You don't have to, do you?

[Cheetory6]

Point at the specific passive aggressive post please.

What do you think of mastin calling your vote on shaft a busvote?

[estival]

Cheetory, mastin isn't reading either. Anxiety asked me to ISO shaft and I put him as suspicious then when there was no wagon on shaft. So mastin needs to read better, in addition to Reina.

Phone posting but I will give you a number for the post.

[Bookitty]

1. Bookitty, you worked backwards to justify your read and didn't give a read on jackel.

2. You didn't respond to my question regarding what you expect town to do when under attack? Hide? Meow and bat your eyelashes?

1. I did give a read on Jackel; I said I don't have a firm read on him at this point. I'm not going to fake a read just because you demand one. :p And as for working backwards to justify my read? Hell yes I did that. I didn't start with a scumread on you. Something you did prompted me to think, wow, scummy, and then I looked back at your posts and paid more attention to the points made against you and I developed a case on you which I've presented here in this very thread for everyone to oooh and ahhh and make admiring noises over.

2. Well, Heartless was attacking me both directly and backhandedly but I didn't start calling them scum and pointing out how scummy they were. I tried to address their points. So I guess that's what I expect town to do.

[Cheetory6]

@estival

, are you sure that's the reason that mastin is calling it a busvote?

[Hostile Intent]

You'd know a lot about shite wagons, wouldn't you?

Don't take it so personally,
sign of guilt and all~

Actually I was insulting you, but I can understand how you didn't get that.

Why is your wagon superior?

[estival]

Post number 1979 where Reina tries to tear down heartless reasons for seeing shaft as scum in a passive and carefully couched way.
Its a "let me tell you how to scumhunt because your doing it wrong and of ps I'm really good at catching newbie scum."

I find the assertion that he caught newbie scum in a game or two as a badge of honor to be hilarious. Like seriously thats your accolades or big.experience?

I've done better in 5 games and counting.

Cheetory look at the timing of it. I only ever played one scum game but I don't think bussing is my style. It seems bad, plus people were trying to kill seraphim and broseiden and why wouldn't I just vote one of them?

Bookitty, I do not have the time now to address your posts lack of logic, consistency and your willful negligence in applying your supposed scum signs to other players
The singular nature.of.your focus speaks volumes in itself.

[estival]

Bookitty what is your recommendation to town under attack by possible scum or town? I've asked now three times because it seems an answer is not forthcoming for some unknown reason.