The IC and SE System

[Zachrulez]

The whole IC thing gets over thought a lot in my opinion and because some people want it to be so much you have users who are in fact afraid to IC.

The point is more for newbies to be exposed to the site's style of play and an IC is only really someone who has experience playing this style of game.

There should never be a 'skill' requirement for ICs. Let people IC until they prove they can't handle it. I mean it's more important what an IC

doesn't do

than what they do.

Edit: If a more strict IC system is implemented, how will this effect people who already have IC status? Will they have to be approved as ICs again?

[Zachrulez]

An agenda isn't really a problem as long as the IC explains what was going through their mind at the end of the game, and what optimal play would have been for both sides if it went against what they suggested in game.

[Zachrulez]

Here's my thing: I think playing in a normal game gets you the same thing playing in a newbie game does.... except, the newbie game is limited in its setup variation, leading to long term "optimal strategies". "Okay, we have a ____, which means ____ can't be in the setup!" Why should that be a thing in the newbie queue?

I know that's not what this thread is for, but at least the first step to correcting that would be to get rid of outdated things like IC/SE. I can understand a newbie's frustration when they show up on the site, having played mafia elsewhere, and are expected to join a queue called the "Newbie Queue" (which insinuates lack of knowledge) and play a "newbie role" (which puts them in an inferior standing to other players) and play a "newbie setup" (which has limited options and low variance).

We really should acknowledge the fact that most people who come here actually have played mafia before and that the newbie queue is more to get people new to the site acclimated to our style of games more so than actually teaching them how to play mafia. It's actually quite rare that an IC needs to actually 'teach' beyond just playing the game with the newbies. I'm sure half of what intimidates people about ICing is that we've put it on such a pedastol that people are afraid of 'doing it wrong.' As far as I'm concerned as long as an IC doesn't fly off the rails with self voting, melting down and flipping out on the players, personal attacks, or chronically flaking, than they are fine to IC.

Maybe we could change the description of the newbie queue to NOT assume the newbies are new to mafia?

I like the idea of abolishing ICs and delegating their theory duties to the mod.

I think the newbie queue should prioritize getting newbs into a game fast. Ideally, a 2 day turnover from /in to game setup.

The IC queue slows down this turnover. We should just have SEs and newbs. Min 3 SEs and 6 newbies. I don't think game quality would suffer at all.

That would be disastrous because the mod could relay game advice that is damaging to either faction during play and that threatens to compromise their neutrality.

[Zachrulez]

See I'm not worried about an IC giving 'bad' advice in game because they can explain why it was bad and what the town really should have done at the end of the game if they were scum.

[Zachrulez]

Replacing out as an IC or SE should result in a ban from mafia games for 2 weeks (or whatever the community decides is a suitable amount of time).

If your replace-out reasons are legitimate, you probably need time off, anyway, so I don't think this would punish legitimate cases particularly unfairly.

Yes. Agreed. Thank you.

I disagree, but only because I find "SE" a somewhat laughable role and agree with the people who have noted that it seems a questionable distinction and not really having much point - just allow people to play in Newbies if they wish; done.
I would agree with it as far as IC goes - there is a certain core amount of responsibility that I think an IC accepts, and not replacing out barring extenuating circumstances is assuredly one of them.

As far as I remember, the only real reason for SEs is more or less to sanction experienced players playing in the game while still having it be a newbie game for the most part. I have no idea how or where the perception came from that they should actually be expected to do anything more.

[Zachrulez]

Why make the SE role hard to obtain? The reason it exists is so that people can keep playing newbie games without continuing to be classified as a newbie. After 2 completed games they aren't really a newbie anymore.

[Zachrulez]

If anything I'd get rid of the hard number for SEs and possibly do 2 ICs again with it being required for anyone that signs up past a set number of complete games. I don't really feel like it should be an option. We should just be saying "You have IC experience so you're an IC."

[Zachrulez]

See we are talking about change.. AT this point, SE's are acting just like other new players except they have knowledge on site meta. I am not saying we want to run game with all newbies.. I am absolutely fine with adding players to newbie games but SE job needs to be improved. Let's give value to that position.

Removing the SE slot entirely is preferable to this. Giving the SE slot a job to do like the IC slot would make it redundant to the IC slot and leave it with no reason to exist.

[Zachrulez]

I thought the point of the SEs wasn't so that they can give extra advice to newbies, but so that they don't steal slots from newbies.

There's a huge demand for "newish player playing their fourth game in the newbie queue". The reason you can't play your third game there was at least partly an attempt to reduce that demand, IIRC, but even so, there's a potential risk of the SEs crowding the newbies out. Maybe it isn't as bad as it was.

In turn, this means that SEs can't particularly be expected to act like anything but newbies, nor to have particular insights about the game.

If we had Backup IC's, maybe we could keep newbies as newbies for longer, rather than cutting them off as a newbie after two games. What if a newbie is not comfortable being a non-newbie after their second game? What is the argument (for and against) on keeping a newbie as a newbie for more than 2 games?

After two games, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.

[Zachrulez]

After two games, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.

After one game, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.
After ten games, you're not experienced enough to teach a group of newbies, whether or not you want to accept that fact.
Saying random bullshit is fun

Hey now, I did just fine as an IC after 5 games.

[Zachrulez]

Did we go away from 2 IC setup because we wanted to or because 2 IC was unsustainable due to the lack of people actually ICing?