Mini 1651: One Flew Over The Monkey's Nest(Scum Wins!)

[pisskop]

TDA stated an opinion, not asked a question.

304 was my notes sans most of my own alignment reads. A list of potentially noteable interactions and associations that will be more useful after today. I believe in pre-flip alignmnets insofar as deciding who will provide the most information, and I don't like keeping notes with reads in them. When I'm inevitably wrong its harder to trace a real connection if I'm biased recording them.

[pisskop]

TDA stated an opinion, not asked a question.

304 was my notes sans most of my own alignment reads. A list of potentially noteable interactions and associations that will be more useful after today. I believe in pre-flip *associations* insofar as deciding who will provide the most information, and I don't like keeping notes with reads in them. When I'm inevitably wrong its harder to trace a real connection if I'm biased recording them.

ebwop.

[mykonian]

It means that your last set of posts are more there for aqua than they are there for the game. It's not particulary relevant otherwise.

[pisskop]

It means that your last set of posts are more there for aqua than they are there for the game. It's not particulary relevant otherwise.

Is that coaching?

[Aquanim]

I want an answer to the second part, too.

@Mykonian

: What is your read on me?

[mykonian]

It means that your last set of posts are more there for aqua than they are there for the game. It's not particulary relevant otherwise.

Is that coaching?

It's feigned polite annoyance.

[Taly]

429 - It's OK, Aqua. I keep responding even though I'm done trying to argue because as I've said in 416, I'm still going to keep revealing the flaws in peoples arguments because I'm still playing for my win condition. (Town, of course.)

Even when/if I'm mislynch, they'll see that I am a town power role... I wonder who they'll blame scum on then, seeing how they're the most active on my wagon.

Speaking of mislynches, 419 - RC, if you still think odd is a worthy vote, then I would hope you vote on him and get me back to L-3(And odd up to L-3). Not a demand or a request, just a thought, even though you probably still might want me lynched.

Back to you, Aqua - I find it rather funny how much they're willing to say that I am scum, but they're the ones asking you why you're defending me so much.

Why hasn't anyone questioned them?

Also, with 421 and 423 - I think anything that is emotional would come from a townie in distress,

townies should not feel like they need to sacrifice themselves

because that is playing directly for a scumwin. The fact that you think that is so acute in how everything goes here makes me question your alignment thoroughly now, Elyse.

I mean, Elyses case was official

250 posts ago

, and no lynch has been made, and we are STILL on this topic as the main drive in the progression of this game. Seem a little weird? Why is she the main person who has made a major case on anyone yet? Do you have something to say,

Miss Mafia?

You seem very inclined to say all of my behavior is noobscum but you've yet to say anything about the thoughts you "seemed to have had for me" earlier in the game that indicated noobtown. I mean, I thought that's what you meant in 365 - but you tripped up, and verified what you meant in 379. I like how you're quick to jump on those who misstep, and continue a case for as long as possible for your thinking of it - I'd be more cautious if I were in your position.

Either way, I have a good idea just hear me out:

> Elyse was the only person to intervene about me and Mykonian, and for quite a few pages later until someone asked, she was the only person driving the idea that I was scum on board.

Why did Mykonian no longer question or say anything to me until after

Elyse had kept insisting that I was lying and was being scummy, to get me to reveal the full truth?

It's a hunch, but like I said in a VERY early post - Elyse has very good win-ratios, especially with Mafia. I give her full props for manipulating the town, but if

her and a Mykonian team is true

, (like it is beginning to appear with me) - I wouldn't mind a few votes and cases on her.

Speaking of Mykonian

427 and 446 Cute reactions, Mykonian.

Especially since Aqua was speaking to ELYSE, and not YOU

. Are you always this provocative when you feel like

you're losing an edge?

Aqua and the 5 other people not on top of me right now have different reads than you, and you go off on Aqua(whos contributing to NEW ideas for the town) with these posts? You're way too critical and way too eager to lynch and assume the other person is wrong. I've seen that you're becoming a bit more defensive than I was. You're dismissal of Aqua and your emotions in 455 seem vague and not so justified.

Like I've said before, this is just a hunch - but something tells me Mykonian and Elyse are a possible scum team - they've been working and defending one another and they're both most active on my wagon. (I don't see Tools logic,

eektor should be lynched for his lack of help assuming he doesn't even know why he voted for me other than being a sheep on a wagon

, and assuming RC will revote for Odd again - that's all of everyone who thinks I'm really scum. Which, by he way, is not even half the people against me right now.)

But what I said to Aqua in my first few sentences in this post stand true, I'm just bringing to light that Mykonian and Elyse are scum. I do have valid reasons, and I have justified and explained myself in practically every post in this thread. Whether Mykonian has done almost none at all, and Elyse hasn't really said much else of what she's been saying indirectly the past 5 pages.

[eektor]

Like I've said before, this is just a hunch - but something tells me Mykonian and Elyse are a possible scum team - they've been working and defending one another and they're both most active on my wagon. (I don't see Tools logic,

eektor should be lynched for his lack of help assuming he doesn't even know why he voted for me other than being a sheep on a wagon

, and assuming RC will revote for Odd again - that's all of everyone who thinks I'm really scum. Which, by he way, is not even half the people against me right now.)

@Taly - Was going to ask you who you think are scum on your wagon, but you answered it here. Here's a question, do you really think the two biggest pushers for your lynch would be scum? That is pretty risky strategy for day one. Also, are you saying that I am voting for you and sheeped on your wagon? As far as I'm concerned my vote has been on oddmusic.

[Aquanim]

429...
Even when/if I'm mislynch, they'll see that I am a town power role... I wonder who they'll blame scum on then, seeing how they're the most active on my wagon.
...

Are you claiming that you are a power role beyond being a vanilla townie?


To be clear, if you are, this is not me asking you to to say what that role is, if you have deliberately not said exactly what it is.

[Taly]

457

Oh... Darn, I thought you were still on my wagon. Sorry about that - dismiss what I said about the sheeping then.

458

Indirectly, I'm at L-2 and I'm not linking any PMs from anyone, so I guess trying to honestly disclose what my role is through my own words is OK for the rules.

Though, yes, I am claiming I am a town power role. Whether you think that is true or not, I don't know. But I am being truthful about that.

[Taly]

457

Oh... Darn, I thought you were still on my wagon. Sorry about that - dismiss what I said about the sheeping then.

458

Indirectly, I'm at L-2 and I'm not linking any PMs from anyone, so I guess trying to honestly disclose what my role is through my own words is OK for the rules.

Though, yes, I am claiming I am a town power role. Whether you think that is true or not, I don't know. But I am being truthful about that.

I never explicitly said before that I was or wasn't a power role, just saying that I was a townie role. (Just putting this out there before people misrep or something.)

[InsidiousLemons]

I don't really like how Taly is needlessly insisting over and over again that he is town. It kind of looks like overcautious scum. Also, a vague PR claim after having been at L-2 for a fair while is a bit odd. However, I'll admit I have been skimming a bit, sorry for the lack of posts recently, I've been super busy, I'll try to catch up and post some more soon.

[Taly]

I don't really like how Taly is needlessly insisting over and over again that he is town. It kind of looks like overcautious scum. Also, a vague PR claim after having been at L-2 for a fair while is a bit odd. However, I'll admit I have been skimming a bit, sorry for the lack of posts recently, I've been super busy, I'll try to catch up and post some more soon.

IL, what do I have to gain for being cautious at this at this point?

Let's just say I was scum:

1)

I know claiming roles especially right now in this game is dangerous and risky for me - do you see a scum doing this? This is behavior that would continually assert the idea that they were scum. Because:

A)

Of course, people will be shifty about ANYBODY claiming a role, and would likely want to proceed to go for them(via vote, or questioning)

B)

This could also render the other scums' efforts in wanting to seem townie. (Scummies win a lot because people quickly assume that they are town for how they appear) Well, I'd be putting myself and my scum team in trouble for claiming a town role not only for suspicion, but it would damage and go against the very win condition of the scum team. (Indirectly and technically speaking.)

2)

People will naturally conclude that that person is scum - and that could lead to misreps provided their survival in the future, and can ultimately lead to a town win.

Now, let's say that I really am what I say(Town):

1)

Claiming roles would put be at a disadvantage because people would still be shifty on my true role and people could even misrep and count it as further reason that I am scum. Here is my argument to this and my reason/logic behind it:

A)

I'm at L-2, and I've really nothing else to defend myself over at this point, at least I'm still making analysis' about people and continuing to paly the game despite the adversity. Even though making a role claim at this point could lead to my lynch - I say I am being honest, (and you really don't have a lot to just take my word for it) - if my claim was

TRUE

, and it led to my

LYNCH

....

*It could give some seriously helpful data to townies in questioning who is truly and possibly scum in the game, based off all the info I have given in analysis and claims so far.* IF, I were to be mislynched with this claim holding true.

B)

It could alternatively make people see my genuine thoughts and help keep me in the game awhile longer. Which helps town in any case, provided that I am being honest. (Which all people can do is take what I said as a bluff, or the truth. And I already said what it was)

---- That's just my logic behind it. It's not like I'm in a good position to say something like this anyway in the first place

,(not discrediting myself anyhow)

so that's all there is to it.

[pisskop]

. Okay. So about tTaly being scum . . .

[Taly]

. Okay. So about tTaly being scum . . .

So about me being scum...? Do you have an opinion?

[pisskop]

I wasn't voting you, nor did I have you in my top 3.
What about it?

[Taly]

I wasn't voting you, nor did I have you in my top 3.
What about it?

Oh, I was just wondering where you thought I was on your charts, since I didn't know what to make of that post.

Well, that's all I needed to know.

[Elyse]

shut up aqua.

Are you complaining about my spamming? If so I'll try to tone it down a little. Does this mean you think I'm town?

I'm going out so I don't have time to post a full case right now. I haven't suspected you the entire game but that was a huge overreaction on your part after I simply mentioned that I think you are scum.

I take people saying that they think I am scum, particularly that they think I am scum over their current vote target that they've appeared quite confident about, rather seriously.

In particular, since it's their only read I know with certainty is wrong, I very much like to see their reasons for thinking it - it makes it much easier to read them, since the only possibilities are "they believe this and are mistaken" or "they don't believe this and are scum".

I don't think you're scum over Taly. My scumread on Taly is stronger, hence why my vote is on him. In the context of my scumread on you, I'm not sure if your interactions with Taly are scum-scum or scum-town. But I'm not confident enough in my read on you to switch to you.

I don't even have a huge case or anything.

- Your defense of Taly has been nonsensical at times. Taly admits to things, like my case on him being legit and his dishonesty at a certain point, yet you still act as if Taly has been acting town. I understand defending a townread, but you are going to more lengths than usual, unless your townread on Taly is THAT strong. And if it is, then lol.
- Your interaction with RC was bizarre. This particularly is horrible from both ends:

But if I was scum, wouldn't I do precisely that in order to get you to think that?

That would be why it's not a firm town read.

I suppose I should check your scum meta to see how well you can emulate it. Sometime. I have more pleasant uses for my time at present than reading your posts.

But worse from yours because you actually use RC's own WIFOM to make him less of a townread. It makes no sense.
- Your votes on mykonian and Boonskiies to get them to answer questions are pointless. As I already explained, it seems like your Boonskiies vote was done simply to make your mykonian vote look better.
- You completely overreacted to me mentioning a scumread on you.
- You were rolefishing with Taly. What is the point of pointing out that he was potentially softclaiming a PR? What if someone (scum perhaps) missed it amidst Taly's horribly formatted walls and only saw it because you pointed it out? There is nothing protown about it because now Taly must be run up to a claim or else we have to deal with a shitty softclaim we can't hold him accountable to down the road because he could claim any PR.


Now for Taly.

Back to you, Aqua - I find it rather funny how much they're willing to say that I am scum, but they're the ones asking you why you're defending me so much.

Why hasn't anyone questioned them?

Also, with 421 and 423 - I think anything that is emotional would come from a townie in distress,

townies should not feel like they need to sacrifice themselves

because that is playing directly for a scumwin. The fact that you think that is so acute in how everything goes here makes me question your alignment thoroughly now, Elyse.

I don't know what you are trying to stay here. Stop bolding, italicizing, capitalizing, and underlining random things.

I mean, Elyses case was official

250 posts ago

, and no lynch has been made, and we are STILL on this topic as the main drive in the progression of this game. Seem a little weird? Why is she the main person who has made a major case on anyone yet? Do you have something to say,

Miss Mafia?

It's my fault that my case on you has dominated discussion? Maybe it's because it's the only legit case out there - something you even acknowledged. I don't get why you're all in a huff about your wagon when you admit that my case has merit. I mean I get that you are going to defend yourself but you're acting as if everyone is crazy for voting you because you're being honest. Hint: No one can tell if you're being honest. Saying it does not help. And people are less likely to believe you when you've admitted to lying in the past.

You seem very inclined to say all of my behavior is noobscum but you've yet to say anything about the thoughts you "seemed to have had for me" earlier in the game that indicated noobtown. I mean, I thought that's what you meant in 365 - but you tripped up, and verified what you meant in 379.

I never thought you were noobtown. Your posts obviously indicated that you're a newbie, and the various contradictions and AtEs made me decide noobscum rather than noobtown.

I like how you're quick to jump on those who misstep, and continue a case for as long as possible for your thinking of it - I'd be more cautious if I were in your position.

The point of this game is to lynch your scumreads. That's what I'm doing.

Either way, I have a good idea just hear me out:

Here we go.

> Elyse was the only person to intervene about me and Mykonian, and for quite a few pages later until someone asked, she was the only person driving the idea that I was scum on board.

Why did Mykonian no longer question or say anything to me until after

Elyse had kept insisting that I was lying and was being scummy, to get me to reveal the full truth?

I think the real problem here is that you were lying and I pressed you to get the truth. I'll let mykonian address your question about why he didn't intervene but my guess it that I was doing a good enough job of pressuring you on my own.

It's a hunch, but like I said in a VERY early post - Elyse has very good win-ratios, especially with Mafia. I give her full props for manipulating the town, but if

her and a Mykonian team is true

, (like it is beginning to appear with me) - I wouldn't mind a few votes and cases on her.

So you're scumreading me for being a good player? Come on now.

Like I've said before, this is just a hunch - but something tells me Mykonian and Elyse are a possible scum team - they've been working and defending one another and they're both most active on my wagon.

Again, I don't understand how you can possibly scumread me for voting you and pushing your lynch when you have admitted my case on you is legitimate. And where am I defending mykonian?

(I don't see Tools logic,

eektor should be lynched for his lack of help assuming he doesn't even know why he voted for me other than being a sheep on a wagon

, and assuming RC will revote for Odd again - that's all of everyone who thinks I'm really scum. Which, by he way, is not even half the people against me right now.)

If eektor should be lynched then why aren't you voting for him?

But what I said to Aqua in my first few sentences in this post stand true, I'm just bringing to light that Mykonian and Elyse are scum. I do have valid reasons, and I have justified and explained myself in practically every post in this thread.

No you haven't considering this is the first time you've brought it up.

Whether Mykonian has done almost none at all, and Elyse hasn't really said much else of what she's been saying indirectly the past 5 pages.

I don't know what this means.

And then Taly insists he's being genuine. And he softclaims. Softclaiming is a pet peeve of mine and I hate it so so much. It's also a scumtell. A newbtown like Taly would be more likely to blurt out his entire role as a last minute defense. Instead, he's holding his cards close to his chest and leaving an option to claim whatever he wants, but also claiming PR to make people scared of lynching him. He clearly thought about using it as a defense rather than it being a gut reaction. He's scum.

@pisskop
Thoughts on Taly please. It seems like you're townreading him and I honestly can't fathom how after those posts.

[Aquanim]

- Your defense of Taly has been nonsensical at times. Taly admits to things, like my case on him being legit and his dishonesty at a certain point, yet you still act as if Taly has been acting town. I understand defending a townread, but you are going to more lengths than usual, unless your townread on Taly is THAT strong. And if it is, then lol.

I don't dig huge holes for myself defending another player unless I'm very confident they're town - and in this case, I am. My gut says he's town, and it's not often wrong.

- Your interaction with RC was bizarre. This particularly is horrible from both ends:

But if I was scum, wouldn't I do precisely that in order to get you to think that?

That would be why it's not a firm town read.

I suppose I should check your scum meta to see how well you can emulate it. Sometime. I have more pleasant uses for my time at present than reading your posts.

But worse from yours because you actually use RC's own WIFOM to make him less of a townread. It makes no sense.

That conversation didn't accomplish a whole lot, no. Not one of my finer moments, but I'm a sucker for pissing matches.

- Your votes on mykonian and Boonskiies to get them to answer questions are pointless. As I already explained, it seems like your Boonskiies vote was done simply to make your mykonian vote look better.

That is the conclusion that you'd come to, if you assumed I was scum. Each of those votes had a purpose, though perhaps not spectacularly good ones. Mykonian had not answered my question and I wanted to know whether he was still active in the thread or was no longer reading; I figured a vote on him was likely to shake him out of his tree. The vote for Boonskies is a serious vote, I'm scumreading the slot and will continue to do so until if and when I'm satisfied his reads are genuine.

- You completely overreacted to me mentioning a scumread on you.

I think my only answer to this one is "I did that as town. Deal with it." If you have a specific reason why you think that reaction was scummy then perhaps I can say something meaningful.

- You were rolefishing with Taly. What is the point of pointing out that he was potentially softclaiming a PR? What if someone (scum perhaps) missed it amidst Taly's horribly formatted walls and only saw it because you pointed it out? There is nothing protown about it because now Taly must be run up to a claim or else we have to deal with a shitty softclaim we can't hold him accountable to down the road because he could claim any PR.

I'm getting tired of debates going around and around because Taly said something vague. It had already been said, it might as well be clarified before we get into some mindbogglingly stupid argument about whether he intended to claim a role or not.

This reads like you're throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: {Music definable by N-1, N E R}

VOTE: Oddmusic

[RadiantCowbells]

Err.

That should be N E N.

Sorry friends.

[RadiantCowbells]

Really wasn't necessary to claim Taly, especially considering you knew I was gonna pull off.

[pisskop]

@Elyse
what do you think of odd?

of the hypothetical Odd/metal team? or odd/taly?

[pisskop]

I feel bad for wanting to push metal, but hes acting a lot like 585. scummetal

[Aquanim]

I feel bad for wanting to push metal, but hes acting a lot like 585. scummetal

In what way?