New York 180 (Endgame)

[Ozgin]

No, but it does mean you don't really have much of a case to begin with when apathy is prevalent which just means it's really convenient.

Right, so the general consensus/popularity of playing apathetically as town (which, hey look at that, hasn't been working), somehow nullifies my argument that apathy is bad?

I mean, hey, owning slaves was pretty popular back in the old days, so it must have meant that slavery was acceptable and should never have been stood up against.

[Shinobi]

Except that wasn't the point I was making.

Why FA_Q over any other apathetic player in the game, aside from the fact that he is at L-1?

[Shinobi]

How does someone even liken slavery to town apathy?

[Ozgin]

Except that wasn't the point I was making.

Why FA_Q over any other apathetic player in the game, aside from the fact that he is at L-1?

Because I was asked/prompted, very specifically, for my personal thoughts on FA_Q. I wasn't asked for my reads or thoughts on the current standing players, I was asked for my thoughts on FA_Q.

How does someone even liken slavery to town apathy?

It's a simple matter of using an extreme to test your logic. I'm not saying they're as bad, that's obviously not the point: The point is that

just because something is popular, doesn't mean it is justified.

[ika]

vc

FA_Q2: Cheetory6, T S O, Goodmorning, Nobody Special [L-3]
dragonspawn: Aeronaut
Marquis: FA_Q2, Silverwolf

13, 7 to lynch

(expired on 2015-03-26 00:00:00)

[Shinobi]

I'm probably just going to cut off this conversation right here because Ozgin is annoying me.

He's probably town though, fwiw.

[Ozgin]

I'm probably just going to cut off this conversation right here because Ozgin is annoying me.

He's probably town though, fwiw.

I promise I'm not trying to be annoying or disruptive, I just feel like our thought processes led us to butt heads.

But I can agree to call the conversation here and discuss more important things.

Stepping away from FA_Q for a minute here (considering his wagon is slowing down and his reaction read town to me), What players are really far UTR right now, and does anybody else think they should be pressured? I personally want to hear from Kitz, who only lightly weighed in on FA_Q once and has been generally disinterested in this game.

I even ISO'd Kitz and looked a little, and Kitz, if you really feel so 'meh-ish', why not replace out, or just try to move past the bullshit that had been stinking up the last few days and try to reap some good information like the rest of us?

[Shinobi]

I'm probably just going to cut off this conversation right here because Ozgin is annoying me.

He's probably town though, fwiw.

I promise I'm not trying to be annoying or disruptive, I just feel like our thought processes led us to butt heads.

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at I think. Cutting it off is probably best and will most likely be more productive.

But I can agree to call the conversation here and discuss more important things.

Stepping away from FA_Q for a minute here (considering his wagon is slowing down and his reaction read town to me), What players are really far UTR right now, and does anybody else think they should be pressured? I personally want to hear from Kitz, who only lightly weighed in on FA_Q once and has been generally disinterested in this game.

I even ISO'd Kitz and looked a little, and Kitz, if you really feel so 'meh-ish', why not replace out, or just try to move past the bullshit that had been stinking up the last few days and try to reap some good information like the rest of us?

I found it suspicious that Kitz kept coming up with 50 billion excuses to scumread me which gets tiring after a while. I have issues sorting newer players attacking me sometimes since it's hard for me to tell if them being wrong is a matter of newness or scumness.

[Shinobi]

@NS: Did my answer give you anything or are you just going to continue to votepark on me for funsies?

I was not impressed by your answer. I'm going to keep an eye on you, and for now, my vote.

Did nobody else have a problem with this?

[goodmorning]

TSO might have, but TSO and I aren't particularly interested in voting NS atm.

[Cheetory6]

Can someone talk to me about Cheetory? Because I've reached before when I've tunnelled as town, but my fucking god his latest stuff is like leaping a chasm.

Or you could talk to me about it instead of just trying to reach out to everyone else to discredit me here? Why are you asking everyone but me about it if you're legitimately interested in sorting me? Is the only point that you're calling a stretch my connection between you/FA? If so this post is a HUGEEEE exaggeration [which I'm almost positive it intentionally is -.-].
God I wish I could just fucking dayvig you. I'm baffled that nobody else is seeing how scummy you are right now.
If I'm somehow wrong and I just can't read you then I'll apologize postgame, but I'll honestly be fucking shocked if I'm wrong about this.

He didn't come up with reasons until later.

I didn't 'come up with reasons later'. I voted because the game was stalling and needed momentum. My vote is still on you because I don't entirely believe the AtEish manner in which you're responding to this pressure on you.
Give me your reads on TSO/goodmorning.

Wasn't sure about FA earlier but the sheer lack of people opposing the lynch has me guessing he is town.

:/ This is pretty weak surface level analysis. Have you even read the case on him? What do you think of his actual reaction to the wagon?

considering his wagon is slowing down and his reaction read town to me

How? Are you joking?
How did his reaction read town to you? -.-

[Cheetory6]

Like, I'm not gonna lie, I probably was stretching a bit, and FA/TSO connection might actually be stupid because 4062 doesn't look like scum/scum level interactions, but holy shit the way TSO chose to engage that feels fucking gross.

[Marquis]

VOTE: tso

didn't finish reading but i like this right now. a lot.

[T S O]

Maybe because I fucking explained stuff to you the first time, and it didn't change your views? I first beat your argument, then sought to talk to you about it non-aggressively, and you basically said "oh thanks for that" and continued pushing it anyway? The exact same thing? Why would I then waste my time "talking" to you again when you're obviously convinced you've caught the mighty scum-TSO who is SO good at this game that just about everyone has gone after him at some stage for paranoia?

[T S O]

VOTE: tso

didn't finish reading but i like this right now. a lot.

Okay, you've made your mind, go justify it now. Off with you.

[T S O]

Like, I'm not gonna lie, I probably was stretching a bit, and FA/TSO connection might actually be stupid because 4062 doesn't look like scum/scum level interactions, but holy shit the way TSO chose to engage that feels fucking gross.

"I was stretching, but I hated how TSO said I was stretching."

What the fuck, Cheetory?

[T S O]

TSO might have, but TSO and I aren't particularly interested in voting NS atm.

TSO has all sorts of problems with NS this game, by the way, but yes - the sentiment is correct.

[T S O]

Okay, I'm back, and not-mad.

[T S O]

I feel my manner of dealing with Cheetory this game has been completely fair. To lay it out in a semi-chronological manner:

Cheetory opens the day with a big-ass case on me, which is basically saying I immediately wanted ABR dead when he claimed Tracker d3.
I respond by explaining why that makes no sense.
He says that I am also discrediting anyone attacking me.
I go on to then explain how the crux of his case, quite literally, makes no sense.
Cheetory ...dismisses me addressing the core of his case being wrong as semantics.
I call bullshit on that. - in essence, winning the argument.

[T S O]

I don't just dismiss him after that, I attempt to explain my reasons, which even -I- barely remember, to him. There's a big string of posts if you want to look at them.

[T S O]

Hopefully the tone of this game will get better from here -.-..

@TSO

, can you pitch me what you believe is the difference between your scumgame and your towngame?
Would you also mind linking me a towngame or two? I want to make sure I'm not just getting caught up on general metatells rather than scumtells from metadiving.

@All else

, can everyone give me their read on TSO and why?
I don't entirely believe some of the stuff he was saying in response to me, particularly that he believed that we could leash Mathblade. I think that's reasoning he's putting forward in hindsight to overjustify why he was doing what he was doing. I asked him for specific reasoning as to why he wanted to lynch ABR over Math before deadline and there was no indication as to that being a part of the reason:

Because either he dies from vig or lynch and the vig could do better than shooting him.

Like, I just feel like his explanation today as to what he was doing on D3 feels too elaborate and thought-out for someone who was apathetic and disinterested in what was going on. I think he's trying to adjust to look better after having played in a scummy/sloppy manner. Why wouldn't he immediately responded to me with "I just didn't care that much after all the shit that had happened" instead of "these are all of the actual reasons why an ABR lynch made a bunch of sense that I didn't actually say before voting for him"? It just feels dishonest.

Furthermore, I've started doing a bit of a metadive and I'm seeing a lot of things from NY 178 that seem somewhat familiar to this game (being able to get angry at things, getting into big fights with people he perceives as being unreasonable). Given that he generally eluded everyone's detection as scum in that game, I'm curious as to what exactly is making him seem like he isn't scum to everyone right now?
Can someone with more meta experience with him give some thoughts on what his towngame is like as well?

This was the point where I realised I was completely wasting my time, and didn't respond anymore.

As well as that, he's also read NY 178, and apparently sees parallels. We're never told what these parallels are. We're never told if he's seen my towngame (I doubt he meta'd it).

[goodmorning]

oh god

if this is going to turn into a shit show can we just stop it here???

[Cheetory6]

Maybe because I fucking explained stuff to you the first time, and it didn't change your views? I first beat your argument, then sought to talk to you about it non-aggressively, and you basically said "oh thanks for that" and continued pushing it anyway? The exact same thing? Why would I then waste my time "talking" to you again when you're obviously convinced you've caught the mighty scum-TSO who is SO good at this game that just about everyone has gone after him at some stage for paranoia?

"Why would you waste your time talking to me?"
So this is entirely about how people perceive you and not about trying to figure out whether I'm town or scum?
You're clearly talking like you're finding me unreasonable, but at the same time you're trying to frame it like "oh man maybe he's kind of suspicious guyz..."
If you had any kind of actual interest in sorting me you wouldn't be approaching this like this. You just want to make people calling you out look bad/stupid/scummy. That's entirely your goal right now and it's so fucking transparent.

As well as that, he's also read NY 178, and apparently sees parallels. We're never told what these parallels are. We're never told if he's seen my towngame (I doubt he meta'd it).

Lol. This is why you're full of shit. Here are the parallels I saw:

(being able to get angry at things, getting into big fights with people he perceives as being unreasonable)

If you actually gave a fuck about how I was perceiving you, you would have given me a towngame to look at or answering any of my questions, but instead you just kind of shrugged me off and said "do it yourself".

Cheetory opens the day with a big-ass case on me, which is basically saying I immediately wanted ABR dead when he claimed Tracker d3.
I respond by explaining why that makes no sense.
He says that I am also discrediting anyone attacking me.
I go on to then explain how the crux of his case, quite literally, makes no sense.
Cheetory ...dismisses me addressing the core of his case being wrong as semantics.
I call bullshit on that. - in essence, winning the argument.

Oh my fucking god this is hard misrep.
The core of my case is the CHANGE ITSELF AND NOT THE FACT THAT I CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY YOU WOULD CHANGE. God this is so fucking bullshit because I know you're framing this in a way to make it look like I have no case when I do.

He's tried a bunch of scummy ways to get me off his case, first he tried saying "oh man you're being real town about this" -buddying, then when I didn't stop there "oh mannnn more people are just getting on my case because of NY 178 blah blah blah" - AtE and now he's OMGUSing because he knows that if he keeps me around I'm going to start becoming more convincing and more people have expressed sentiment that we should off him. It's so clear to me. I was unsure for a bit, but now I'm 100% sold.

Fucking. Pleaseeee sheep this. If I'm wrong then lynch me. That's how fucking sure I am that he's full of shit right now.
VOTE: TSO
Lynch me or him. I don't care at this point. Just lynch him tomorrow.

[Kitz]

I even ISO'd Kitz and looked a little, and Kitz, if you really feel so 'meh-ish', why not replace out, or just try to move past the bullshit that had been stinking up the last few days and try to reap some good information like the rest of us?

I'll just wait. I'm sure half the other players are also "meh-ish".
It's because of the whole spectacle of those game throwers and every read you did are thrown into the fucking trash bin.

I have issues sorting newer players attacking me sometimes since it's hard for me to tell if them being wrong is a matter of newness or scumness.

Does this hint that you're a confirmed town? You're not.
You're doing the whole "She's a newbie, or she's scum" thing, while completely blocking out the possibility of scum.

That is duly noted to alignment read.

UTR

"Hmm. Mhm. What does this mean?"

PEDIT :

Lynch me

or him.

I don't care at this point

. Just lynch him tomorrow.

HERE WE GO AGAIN

[Cheetory6]

Like I may be wordy, unconvincing or wrong about details, but my gut is fucking roaring and it wants TSO blood and I won't fucking settle for less at this point.
So if you're prepared to find a wagon that won't exist on either myself or TSO then SHIT THAT SUCKS.
I'm not going to be a part of it anymore.