Open 589: Duck Duck Goose (Game Over: Somebody Won)

[davesaz]

Ploben why am I scum?

I have a better question for you: why are you town? Can you point to legitimate scum hunting?

My goodness. I hope you have a good follow-up to this question.

Do you find anyone scummy apart from Kaboose, based on your re-evaluation?

I'm going to need to re-read and evaluate.

The question does have a point.

[davesaz]

Ploben why am I scum?

I have a better question for you: why are you town? Can you point to legitimate scum hunting?

I also want to point out now that davesez isn't asking me to point out scum hunting of mine in the sense that he thinks I'll be able to find some for him to look at. He's asking a rhetorical question to call me out on what he believes to be a lack of scum hunting. Which is funny that he wants to use that as a reason to push my lynch, when I'm less guilty of it than... Oh I don't know... NJAC? So davesez would rather lynch me for not scum hunting than NJAC for not scum hunting. Cute.

Either way I'd like to see what the replacement is like in that slot before I probably cast another vote.

Replying to this part first. I do have thoughts on the other parts of the post.

I actually hadn't made up my mind on your alignment. I wanted to see who attacks you, who defends you, and how you reply.

You're attributing a motive to my question without having any idea what my true motive is. I actually was asking you to point out your scum hunting, in case you had posted something that you thought was scum hunting but I didn't see it as such. So it was an invitation to identify your actions that have town motivation. If you do have some town posts and others are dismissing them it gives me a lead on those people. And if you don't then it tells me something about you. Attributing a motive like that instead of answering the question shows you're trying to discredit the question. Looks scummy to me.

I found it interesting that, given this opportunity, you chose to compare yourself to NJAC and not others. In particular, you could have pointed at me, but you didn't. This tells me that you don't want to take the risk of accusing someone who probably does have the ability to fight back. Instead you're still trying to keep the focus on NJAC who is being replaced. I think that's pretty scummy.

On the theory question of whether it is useful to lynch an inactive player... Town should generally do this as a last resort, when they have no good scumreads. Obviously you might catch scum by voting a scummy player. Second best, a scummy town player is a liability later in the game because they give scum a mislynch target; and if they survive to LYLO then it ups scum's chances a lot. A true inactive will invariably be replaced which will yield more information. A scum replacement is often uneasy with the situation, and a town replacement often goes gangbusters to telegraph their alignment. So lynching an inactive is only better than a no-lynch. In this game we won't have any no-lynches. The theory is scummy.

I think that's the trifecta of scummy posting all in one shot, but I'm going to do a little vote counting before I throw down. We can wait for a NJAC replacement and with the lynch mechanics a lead is all you need. I'd definitely be willing to vote.

[oddmusic]

Getting a town vibe off of davesaz's last two posts. Feels like genuine scum hunting to me

[Taly]

If you die as town you:
1) provide information to other townies;
2) still can win if the scum will get eliminated;
Thus, you should care more about catching the scum than about surviving if you're town.

Yeah but townies do tend to get a bit pissy if they find they are under adverse circumstances when it isn't necessary, and if people listen - it can avoid mislynching even though mislynching can help info-wise, I'd rather directly eliminate a scum and then find out info. leading to who is on their side. Versus lynching a townie, and towns survival rate logistically drops, while we're still looking for who could be scum candidates as we did before the mislynch. This is why I prioritize genuine and emotional thoughts in a persons posts as townie.

With this said, I haven't seen a lot of davesaz - but I do however believe daves recent posts have been helpful. I also don't think Kaboose is in a dangerous situation to start going a bit off the rails, seemingly that he is possibly another wagon on this relatively long D1 - which makes some of his recent statements a bit weird to me:

D1 is informationless until D2.

Not quite, you haven't really posted much unless it was either revolving around ChriVi, ploben, and/or NJAC - and now addressing the wagon forming on you. There should be at least something you can add other than an event having to happen to get you to open up.

D2 comes and NJAC will surely still be alive even if he's town because why would the scum NK someone who hasn't done anything?

You seem to be a bit concerned with explaining how a scum would outlook this - what makes you come to the conclusion that scum would eliminate inactive players?

I also want to point out now that davesez isn't asking me to point out scum hunting of mine in the sense that he thinks I'll be able to find some for him to look at.

What are your scum reads, Kaboose? What would you say you've done for the town that has involved scum-hunting?

>>> Kaboose has been a neutral read for me for awhile now - I'm beginning to question him a bit... Haven't found another reason voting out of the gate(since I'm still collecting my thoughts over the forming Kaboose wagon), but I'm curious of him.

[Kaboose]

I just want to point out that I said scum WOULD NOT eliminate inactive players.

NJAC is a scum read. ChriVi is a scum read. NJAC's scum read is pending once they're replaced.

[vettrock]

vote: Vett

Say something relevant that also takes a firm postiion.

I can see you point here, as I don't have a solid position on who is scum as I am still trying to figure that out. Of the first two wagons,

ChriVi

and

NJAC

, didn't seem particularly scummy to me. The first one was primarily because

ChriVi

was being rude in my opinion, and the second one was because

NJAC

was inactive. Neither one seems to be alignment indicative, so I wasn't ready to jump on them. I need to look more at

Kaboose

. So I will agree that I haven't taken much of a firm position. Finding scum on D1 is tough. I'm fine with my vote on Honey Bee at the moment, The problem is I didn't like the two main wagons so far. I'll commit to them both being terrible. I'm not ready to commit to something else yet. There is some more I have to read.

-.-

Kaboose: why did you think njac could be innactive town? and are you voting him strictly based on utility so that if he's replaced you're going to reevalutate the slot's usefulness, or are you scum reading that slot at this point?

I like the vote on vettrock and I'll probably move mine because I'm sure if I want this kaboose wagon.

You mean you are not sure if mean you don't like the

Kaboose

wagon? I find it a little OMGUSy, that I'm the only person voting you, and now you want to join Pisskop in voting me. Pisskop has a legitimate concern, your vote is either opportunistic, or sheep.

[vettrock]

Reviewing the case against

Kaboose

, it looks to me this is primarily build around him saying we should lynch

NJAC

as useless town/inactive. I'm not sure why his push on

NJAC

is any scummier that the others that voted

NJAC

. While his replacement out can certainly be for legitimate reasons, I don't think it is that uncommon for scum to see a wagon building on them, and then feel that its not worth the effort, and to bail on the game. Yes, I realize this goes somewhat against what I just said about how I didn't like the

NJAC

wagon. I think we will get a better idea when the replacement shows up.

[vettrock]

If you die as town you:
1) provide information to other townies;
2) still can win if the scum will get eliminated;
Thus, you should care more about catching the scum than about surviving if you're town.

If you die as scum you:
1) provide information to the town that helps catching your partners;
2) is way less likely to win;
Thus, you should care more about defending and looking townier and you don't really care about catching the scum. You, in fact, should care about the opposite.

These two motivations are very different and I personally see high defense as a slight scum tell.

[/quote]
I can agree with Taly here. Town can still win when mislynched, but you should be fine with getting mislynched only if it outs scum. Otherwise it is playing more to scum's wincon than yours. There is also the personal thing that people play here because they want to play. No body likes getting killed because then it eliminates them from the game. If I thought getting lynched would directly implicate scum, sure I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I'm going to try and stay alive as both town or scum.

[talah]

The question does have a point.

What was the point? Your next post 451 implies that the point was a reaction test, or to gauge a response. In which case, why not wait for the reaction from my own vote first?

Getting a town vibe off of davesaz's last two posts. Feels like genuine scum hunting to me

How do you feel about tacking on to the back of suspicion without actually voting the wagon? Pressure?
But then why does he immediately see my play and assist?
Tell me how it's good scumhunting.

The last time he posted before this:

Ploben why am I scum?

I have a better question for you: why are you town? Can you point to legitimate scum hunting?

is two and a half days before that.

Your assertion of good scumhunting seems underdeveloped to say the least.

[talah]

Pisskop has a legitimate concern, your vote is either opportunistic, or sheep.

I probably didn't spot it, but where does pisskop raise this as a concern against Honey Bee?

Reviewing the case against

Kaboose

, it looks to me this is primarily build around him saying we should lynch

NJAC

as useless town/inactive. I'm not sure why his push on

NJAC

is any scummier that the others that voted

NJAC

. While his replacement out can certainly be for legitimate reasons, I don't think it is that uncommon for scum to see a wagon building on them, and then feel that its not worth the effort, and to bail on the game. Yes, I realize this goes somewhat against what I just said about how I didn't like the

NJAC

wagon. I think we will get a better idea when the replacement shows up.

Mmmmm yeah actually I didn't like his attitude that we'll lynch someone anti-town rather than scummy and his lack of wanting to say x or y behaviour is scummy. It seems like a fallback position and I don't like the idea that lynching anti-town is town. It seems to me like it's more anti-town than the behaviour he wants to lynch.
I also think it's possibly marginal but better than me voting ChriVi, or NJAC right now. I think it's at least possible-scum.

I'll just quote myself here:

I'd think about vettrock. I have a town-twinge because of the PGO-claim post which occurred to me but the rest of what he's posted seems quite theoretical. Well even the PGO post, actually.

And then quote you:

I can agree with Taly here. Town can still win when mislynched, but you should be fine with getting mislynched only if it outs scum. Otherwise it is playing more to scum's wincon than yours. There is also the personal thing that people play here because they want to play. No body likes getting killed because then it eliminates them from the game. If I thought getting lynched would directly implicate scum, sure I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I'm going to try and stay alive as both town or scum.

I don't see how posts like this contribute to the discussion, or to scumhunting. It's just recapping what the actual post you're agreeing with, says. You're not adding anything.

Incidentally that was Netherspite, not Taly who you quoted in response there.

[ChriVi]

talah; Dying as both town or scum goes against your wincon. High defense isn't a tell.

If you die as town you:
1) provide information to other townies;
2) still can win if the scum will get eliminated;
Thus, you should care more about catching the scum than about surviving if you're town.

If you die as scum you:
1) provide information to the town that helps catching your partners;
2) is way less likely to win;
Thus, you should care more about defending and looking townier and you don't really care about catching the scum. You, in fact, should care about the opposite.

These two motivations are very different and I personally see high defense as a slight scum tell.

You're wrong.

vetrock and taly are right.

#dealwitit<3

[talah]

ChriVi - Opinion on oddmusic pl0x

[ChriVi]

ChriVi - Opinion on oddmusic pl0x

He's fucking useless. Did you see his last post? All fluff and forced-reads. He feels so fake it makes me puke.

Why?

[talah]

LOL no reason. Ta.

You and I either have a beautiful relationship, or a tragic ending written on these cards in this game.

[Netherspite]

You're wrong.

vetrock and taly are right.

#dealwitit<3

I'm wrong and town should care more about saving his hide than about catching scum? Please...

Are we playing the same game?

[Netherspite]

@vettrock

Do you have any strong scumreads?

[Kaboose]

Reviewing the case against

Kaboose

, it looks to me this is primarily build around him saying we should lynch

NJAC

as useless town/inactive. I'm not sure why his push on

NJAC

is any scummier that the others that voted

NJAC

. While his replacement out can certainly be for legitimate reasons, I don't think it is that uncommon for scum to see a wagon building on them, and then feel that its not worth the effort, and to bail on the game. Yes, I realize this goes somewhat against what I just said about how I didn't like the

NJAC

wagon. I think we will get a better idea when the replacement shows up.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical here... But I'm much more lethargic on D1 once I've made a decision on someone being scummy enough we should just get rid of them. It's not for a lack of wanting to find scum, but rather for a lack of a feeling that we'll ACTUALLY catch scum. It's probably developed from the site I originated playing this game because most D1s would be running wagons to L1 for a town PR to claim a role rinse repeat until the deadline forces us to make an even worse lynch.

I don't waste my energy or time on a game on D1 trying to solve it because if we could solve these games on D1 then none of us would probably play them as they wouldn't be as fun as they are now.

On D1 I like to find 1 or 2 people that stick out, call them scum, hope one of them is lynched and hope I am alive on D2 and beyond to help putting the puzzle together when we actually get some pieces to work with.

I just want to show you all where I'm coming from here, I'm not excusing myself from participating any further but I'm unlikely to switch from NJAC(although I'm definitely willing to give the replacement a clean sheet) and ChriVi on D1. If someone blatantly scum slips that will get my attention, of course. But please no I'm not holding my breath for that event to occur on D1.

If none of you like any of this, just lynch me.

[ChriVi]

LOL no reason. Ta.

You and I either have a beautiful relationship, or a tragic ending written on these cards in this game.

????

Is confsue

[vettrock]

@vettrock

Do you have any strong scumreads?

No, otherwise I wouldn't be taking the flack for being non-committal. It is hard to have strong scum-reads on D1 unless scum really screws up.

You're wrong.

vetrock and taly are right.

#dealwitit<3

I'm wrong and town should care more about saving his hide than about catching scum? Please...

Are we playing the same game?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Town should be trying to catch scum. They can't catch scum if people are pushing for their lynch instead of scum. As town, you know that lynching you will help the scum, so you should be against it. Its not a matter of saving your hide at the expense of scum-hunting, you should be doing both. The only reason you should not be fighting you own lynch is when your flip/lynch will draw out the scum. That is almost never the case D1. If anything, I think the accusation of someone is being too defensive is used by scum to mislynch more than it is ever an accurate scumtell.

Pisskop has a legitimate concern, your vote is either opportunistic, or sheep.

I probably didn't spot it, but where does pisskop raise this as a concern against Honey Bee?

Pisskop is voting against me due to me being non-committal. This is a legitimate concern. Honey Bee then says that she was considering jumping on my wagon as well. I consider that comment by Honey Bee to be either opportunistic or sheep. My vote is staying there for now.

Reviewing the case against

Kaboose

, it looks to me this is primarily build around him saying we should lynch

NJAC

as useless town/inactive. I'm not sure why his push on

NJAC

is any scummier that the others that voted

NJAC

. While his replacement out can certainly be for legitimate reasons, I don't think it is that uncommon for scum to see a wagon building on them, and then feel that its not worth the effort, and to bail on the game. Yes, I realize this goes somewhat against what I just said about how I didn't like the

NJAC

wagon. I think we will get a better idea when the replacement shows up.

Mmmmm yeah actually I didn't like his attitude that we'll lynch someone anti-town rather than scummy and his lack of wanting to say x or y behaviour is scummy. It seems like a fallback position and I don't like the idea that lynching anti-town is town. It seems to me like it's more anti-town than the behaviour he wants to lynch.
I also think it's possibly marginal but better than me voting ChriVi, or NJAC right now. I think it's at least possible-scum.

I don't like the lynch anti-town attitude either. That is the part I disagreed with. After looking at it some more, I'm just saying that the replace out when the wagon is building against me is something that scum do. Are there plenty of other reasons why this happens? Of course, but I do think the NJAC slot gets half a scum point for it. Considering my case against Honey is fairly weak as is and I'm not moving my vote should tell you about where to rank that. Now if the replacement comes in a starts scumming it up, it will be a factor. I agree with waiting to see the replacement's actions before passing judgement on the slot.

I'll just quote myself here:

I'd think about vettrock. I have a town-twinge because of the PGO-claim post which occurred to me but the rest of what he's posted seems quite theoretical. Well even the PGO post, actually.

And then quote you:

I can agree with Taly here. Town can still win when mislynched, but you should be fine with getting mislynched only if it outs scum. Otherwise it is playing more to scum's wincon than yours. There is also the personal thing that people play here because they want to play. No body likes getting killed because then it eliminates them from the game. If I thought getting lynched would directly implicate scum, sure I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I'm going to try and stay alive as both town or scum.

I don't see how posts like this contribute to the discussion, or to scumhunting. It's just recapping what the actual post you're agreeing with, says. You're not adding anything.

Incidentally that was Netherspite, not Taly who you quoted in response there.

It was Netherspite that I quoted, but Taly had a similar response to Netherspite that I agree with. It is agreeing and further explaining why I agree rather than just saying "I agree" which anyone can do.

[Netherspite]

@vettrock

I never said these things are mutually exclusive.
It is just a matter of priority.

When I'm being at the risk of being lynched I'm spending my time trying to figure out who's scum and will definitely try to analyze my wagon and post as much information as I can because in case I'll get lynched every bit of information will be useful for the town.
I don't see spending your time to defend yourself

only

when being at the risk of the lynch as the productive strategy for the town and I don't think town should do that.

Defense against specific arguments is okay. Doing

only

the defense is not.

[davesaz]

The question does have a point.

What was the point? Your next post 451 implies that the point was a reaction test, or to gauge a response. In which case, why not wait for the reaction from my own vote first?

I was replying while reading, so had not reached Kaboose's post to reply to when I posted 450.

[davesaz]

I don't like the lynch anti-town attitude either. That is the part I disagreed with. After looking at it some more, I'm just saying that the replace out when the wagon is building against me is something that scum do. Are there plenty of other reasons why this happens? Of course, but I do think the NJAC slot gets half a scum point for it. Considering my case against Honey is fairly weak as is and I'm not moving my vote should tell you about where to rank that. Now if the replacement comes in a starts scumming it up, it will be a factor. I agree with waiting to see the replacement's actions before passing judgement on the slot.

I don't put a lot of faith in the "replace out when the wagon's building" theory. I think NJAC's activity dropped site wide, after peeking in the "user's posts" view. Agree, we need to see actual posting from the replacement to be able to sort NJAC's slot better.

[Honey bee]

Pisskop is voting against me due to me being non-committal. This is a legitimate concern. Honey Bee then says that she was considering jumping on my wagon as well. I consider that comment by Honey Bee to be either opportunistic or sheep. My vote is staying there for now.

Excuse me? Have you read my posts? You know you've been pinging me for a long time, and I've already stated my problems with your vote. Now you are just misrepping me now that someone else is getting pinged by you too.

VOTE: vettrock

And yeah, I only voted kaboose for him to notice me. It didn't work, but the responses to the pressure he's getting now hasn't bothered me.

[oddmusic]

So ChriVi thinks I'm useless apparently. Opinion's mutual my double-headed friend.

@Pisskop: What do you think of vettrock now? H'es been posting more, but I could absolutely see the argument that he hasn't said much of substance yet.

Warming up to the vettrock lynch a little. Helps that vettrock completely got Honey Bee's play this game wrong.

[vettrock]

Looking back at Honey Bee's ISO there us a lot more behind the original naked vote that I didn't consider. So I can understand why she saw my reasoning as misrepresenting her.
UNVOTE: Honey Bee
This unfortunately leaves me with very little in the way of scum reads.

ChriVi, I was the reason behind the wagon as people not liking her rudeness, which I agree was not helping town, but not really an alignment thing.

NJAC appeared to be lynch the lurker. After my initial statement that I didn't agree, I thought that replacing ou tgat may be scum leaning, but as dave pointed out, NJAC is off the site w ith his only recent posting being a chess game.

Kaboose's wagon seems to be mistly due to the belief thst he was pushing the lurker wagon. I'm not sure why he is any scummier than the others on the wagon, but it appears to be mostly the "we should lynch useless town" theory. I think it is too early to tell who will be useless at this point.