Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over


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Post Post #1475 (ISO) » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:54 am

Post by Nobody Special »

Votecount 4.01

L-1 :right: Lalendra - 2 - Nachomamma8, Riabi
Nachomamma8 - 1 - Drezi

Not Voting: TellTaleHeart, Lalendra

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-04-02 02:23:21)
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Post Post #1476 (ISO) » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:36 am

Post by Lalendra »

I am okay with a nacho lynch. Riabi doesn't seem convinced by my argument, maybe he'll be swayed by yours. I'd like to hear what TTH has to say before I put nacho at L-1 though.
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Post Post #1477 (ISO) » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:48 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

I also have quote a few things to say before any of that happens.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
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Post Post #1478 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:48 am

Post by Riabi »

In post 1476, Lalendra wrote:Riabi doesn't seem convinced by my argument...

A fair if somewhat mild assessment. Care to actually make an argument about nacho?

Nachomamma8 wrote:I also have quote a few things to say before any of that happens.

I'm looking forward to hearing these.
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Post Post #1479 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:34 am

Post by Lalendra »

You are conftown, and Drezi is unlikely as scum due to the reasons I outlined earlier when I unvoted him. That leaves TTH and nacho. Of the two, I think nacho is the more likely, due ABR's weird constant prodding, his hesitation with the ika hammer, and also the reasons Drezi mentioned. TTH, we are anxiously awaiting your input.
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Post Post #1480 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:40 am

Post by Lalendra »

Also nacho, if you have anything to say in your defense, now would be the time. Not participating at this crucial stage is scummy at worst and anti-town at best. Making a "I have a lot to say" post, and then not following it up with anything for a full day, is just active lurking.
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Post Post #1481 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:38 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1480, Lalendra wrote:Also nacho, if you have anything to say in your defense, now would be the time. Not participating at this crucial stage is scummy at worst and anti-town at best. Making a "I have a lot to say" post, and then not following it up with anything for a full day, is just active lurking.

I'm in North Carolina right now, on vacation. I likely won't be posting until tomorrow/the day after tomorrow. This has no reflection on my alignment, only a reflection of how much time I have available at this moment.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
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Post Post #1482 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:55 am

Post by Lalendra »

Hmm.
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Post Post #1483 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:02 am

Post by Riabi »

In post 1481, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1480, Lalendra wrote:Also nacho, if you have anything to say in your defense, now would be the time. Not participating at this crucial stage is scummy at worst and anti-town at best. Making a "I have a lot to say" post, and then not following it up with anything for a full day, is just active lurking.

I'm in North Carolina right now, on vacation. I likely won't be posting until tomorrow/the day after tomorrow. This has no reflection on my alignment, only a reflection of how much time I have available at this moment.

I can wait, if for no other reason than NC is a fine state. :)
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Post Post #1484 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:02 am

Post by Riabi »

In post 1482, Lalendra wrote:Hmm.

What does this mean?
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Post Post #1485 (ISO) » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:08 pm

Post by TellTaleHeart »

I'm here! Gathering thoughts.
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Post Post #1486 (ISO) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:55 am

Post by TellTaleHeart »

I also think it's Nacho mostly from ABR's approach to the game early yesterday.
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Post Post #1487 (ISO) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:15 am

Post by TellTaleHeart »

ABR's strategy early Day 2 involved a lot of effort on getting Lalendra lynched
and
shielding ika.
Spoiler:
In post 1088, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Unvote, vote Lalendra

In post 1112, Albert B. Rampage wrote:Lynch Lalendra or we might as well resign right here.

In post 1113, Albert B. Rampage wrote:This game has been letdown after letdown. I can't even imagine us winning this. Nobody listens. People rush to bandwagon without thinking. Just stop and think for a moment, how is Lalendra town? That vote on Riabi is scummy as hell. She's scum.

In post 1116, Albert B. Rampage wrote:Lynching ika today is like saying "Jesus take the wheel". I'm not about that plan.

ABR sticking his neck out for a scumbuddy in an undoubtedly weak position and then bussing the other one doesn't make much sense from a strategic standpoint.

I think the most likely strategy ABR was pursuing was going for broke and keeping his entire team intact.

VOTE: Nacho
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Post Post #1488 (ISO) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:41 am

Post by Riabi »

Hmmmm. I still don't like this associative argument. I still would like to see come evidence of scummy behavior on Nacho's part. I'll admit, the fact that there are now two of you making similar arguments does help the cause, since there's no way you're both scum. But, I'm still not comfortable yet voting Nacho with out some direct evidence.
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Post Post #1489 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:30 am

Post by Nobody Special »

Votecount 4.02

L-1 :right: Lalendra - 2 - Nachomamma8, Riabi
L-1 :right: Nachomamma8 - 2 - Drezi, TellTaleHeart

Not Voting: Lalendra

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-04-02 02:23:21)
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Post Post #1490 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:32 am

Post by Nobody Special »

Drezi has been prodded.
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Post Post #1491 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:43 am

Post by Drezi »

why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.
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Post Post #1492 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:46 am

Post by Nobody Special »

You've not read the rules, I see.
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Post Post #1493 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:50 am

Post by Riabi »

In post 1491, Drezi wrote:why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.

What do you think about the case against him?
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Post Post #1494 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:25 am

Post by Drezi »

I've read the rules, and my not posting was not halting anything here, everyone is waiting for Nacho's reply before making a decision, or before we can ask more questions. While we had someone prod dodge and V/LA for the whole of D1 without much trouble and now we have that much less info on an important slot. Whatever. 48H have passed, I posted stuff, we're good.
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Post Post #1495 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:29 am

Post by Drezi »

In post 1493, Riabi wrote:
In post 1491, Drezi wrote:why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.

What do you think about the case against him?

What do I think about my own case? I think it makes sense, still, wanna see what he wanted to post, but couldn't get around to yet.
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Post Post #1496 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:54 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1471, Lalendra wrote:When I was in my first game as scum, and I wasn't talking as much as my scumbuddies wanted me to, they did this sort of soft-pushing to get me to talk.

My join date is in 2009, I've been actively playing mafia for close to 6 years and ABR knows as much. I don't think it makes sense for him to panic and prod me to talk more in thread, especially since it was decently obvious I wasn't in immediate danger of getting lynched (thus the risk not really being justified in any way whatsoever).

In post 1471, Lalendra wrote:Also, when confscum says they "guarantee" someone is town, it makes me raise an eyebrow.

Why is that?

In post 1472, Lalendra wrote:ABR was the most vocal about me being scum, and trying to lynch me. Given that he flipped scum, I don't see how anyone could believe that I am scum; why bus one of your scumbuddies when there is no pressure to do so? He was just trying to start a wagon on me because he was scum and I am town. Period.

Ika was almost certainly going to get lynched when he quickhammered and didn't say anything about it. ABR, in defending a shitty scumpartner as scum, knew that he would come under fire for defending his scumpartner in the way that he did. I don't think anyone legitimately would believe that they could actually save a scumpartner playing like that (or better yet, be willing to save a scumpartner playing like that) unless they had a backup plan for when said obvious scumpartner gets lynched. By defending me and tying himself to me, ABR didn't make it less likely that I would get lynched (because I wasn't really in any danger of getting lynched). He did make it riskier if ika got lynched since him and I would obviously be getting flak together, and he would get even more flak if I was lynched before him. So why didn't he worry about that in any way whatsoever? It makes more sense as an approach from ABR as scum to me as town: him calling me town and agreeing with me encourages me to keep protecting ika, and also ties us together in the event of his death which is a win-win all around for scum ABR.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
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Post Post #1497 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:08 pm

Post by Drezi »

In post 1493, Riabi wrote:
In post 1491, Drezi wrote:why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.

What do you think about the case against him?

@Riabi: Actually, just in case, I'm gonna point out that there's a post by me, the votecount shortly after pushed it to last page.

@Nacho: Your last paragraph doesn't really relate to the quote above and ABR wasn't exactly defending ika anyway, so the whole argument about that is pointless, I think he just tried to get town lynched which would be perfectly normal in this situation.

In post 1496, Nachomamma8 wrote:He did make it riskier if ika got lynched since him and I would obviously be getting flak together, and he would get even more flak if I was lynched before him. So why didn't he worry about that in any way whatsoever?

And this just doesn't sound like town mindset tbh, this whole using yourself as possible scum to show how you think his play wouldn't have been optimal in that case, therefore you're not scum thing. The whole "calling you town" stuff is pretty wifom and null to me in the first place and not something major, so I don't agree that it makes it unlikely that you're scum together.

Basically you commented on like the weakest possible points only in a rather elaborate and lengthy manner, why? I don't want to derail into talking about these minor weak points, and getting strawmanned in the process. That's like the very definition of it.
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Post Post #1498 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:08 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1474, Drezi wrote:My impression at the time was that he simply went ahead to save a scumbuddy, simply because he could afford to do so, so whynot? He also gave a soft townread to ABR along the way, because again, at that point in time, it was a perfectly safe and neutral thing to do.

This is a fine interpretation of events. I don't see how this is more likely than me taking these actions as town, though. The early wagon on ika was formed entirely because he quickhammered. I could pretty easily see ika as town quickhammering when replacing in because "LOL! :D", and absolutely hated a majority of the votes on him which seemed like scum jumping on town for thinly veiled reasoning because they knew he would get heat for doing so. I liked that ABR didn't try to dress up his vote as anything other than it was, as opposed to the weird punish/not punish approach that NJAC was saying which I couldn't really see a town side to.

In post 1474, Drezi wrote:after ABR introduced the Lalendra angle, Nacho was also asking around about Lalendra, if we thought she could be scum etc.

I'm not sure this is how that happened. From my memory, ABR introduced the Lalendra angle while we were in MyLo, you made a response to the effect of "I don't think she's scum, nobody's suspected her thus far" and I pointed out that this probably wasn't a good line of thought to take because of fast and tunnelvisioned days and all.

In post 1474, Drezi wrote:It was right after this, that ABR abandoned pushing Lal/me and voted ika, and afterwards Nacho made 1359 and started leaning towards and ika lynch too, him dropping the Lal angle aswell. This was where they decided that "well k, we bus". Nacho was also a bit too confident in my being town tbh, I think he wanted to have me as someone who'd vote someone else over him in the end.

I never took up an angle last day for lynch other than ika. I said I wasn't voting ika because it was important to slow down to day to make the vig shot better and to get back some of that lost time wasted because quickhammers. I didn't have the perspective you had that ika was town. I had a perspective that he shouldn't be lynched instantly.

In post 1474, Drezi wrote:Lalendra on the other hand voted ika D1, voted him D2, voted him D3 and kept the vote and scumread pretty consistently ending every day there. Also we had ABR pushing me/Lalendra at first, and he only decided to bus when that angle didn't prove fruitful. I think at first he tried to get town lynched, and only resorted to bussing after that didn't work out.

What weirds me out about the read on ika/Dooku is that it was a scumread that she held for the entire game and formed pretty much on the basis of one post, which seemed unnatural to me: I find strong reads that last the whole game to normally need a bit more than that and a lot of posting, but Lalendra had the read in mind almost like it was planned beforehand.
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-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
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Post Post #1499 (ISO) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:21 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1497, Drezi wrote:@Nacho: Your last paragraph doesn't really relate to the quote above and ABR wasn't exactly defending ika anyway, so the whole argument about that is pointless, I think he just tried to get town lynched which would be perfectly normal in this situation.

The quote above was that Lalendra thought she was town because ABR suspected her in thread and scum would try to lynch town. I pointed out that ABR was already defending ika (which he was, he argued against ika being lynched or killed), which means that he would need to be more careful about interactions with his other partner because otherwise it means there's nothing he can do when ika inevitably dies. It is an important point because interactions are the reasons you'e calling Lalendra town, which is why I'm confused you don't think arguing it is relevant.

In post 1497, Drezi wrote:And this just doesn't sound like town mindset tbh, this whole using yourself as possible scum to show how you think his play wouldn't have been optimal in that case, therefore you're not scum thing.

No, his play would have been absolutely horrible to the point where it's a bit suspicious that he would put himself in that situation in the first place since it's horrible in a very obvious way. He has no real scum motivation to call me town if all that does is decrease the scumteam's chances of victory, which it obviously does.
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