Open 591: C9++, The Lunatic Ayslum (Game Over: Town Win!)

[curiouskarmadog]

unvote

vote Reubus

my spidey sense is tingling.

[Otolia]

@Reubus : Are you an alt ? If not, would you consider yourself newbie ? What are your experiences ?

[DarkLightA]

Otolia, that's a very good point. Reubus talks about "last time" he saw it:

I do agree with you though the last time I was in a similar situation it ended up being a noob townie but that's just one occasion.

VOTE: Collatz

But if he's only played in two games before that's a deceiving statement.

[curiouskarmadog]

It would have been nice to see him answer the question BEFORE quoting his previous statement, Dark...you know to see if he is consistent.

[Alchemist21]

I also want to know why Rubeus thinks it's scummy, particularly since he seems to be shrugging off his own personal experience in favor of voting Collatz.

[Collatz]

(...) at the early stages of a game where there isn't much info I treated it as more of a scum move than town move.

Turns out, this (#91) is the first and only place he references voting me to gather information. I find it suspicious how related to my own talk of information gathering in #70

Acutally, that is incorrect. In 81 I make a reference and in 91 and 105 I say exactly that:

used it as an oppurtunity to try and get some information early in the game.

As I said before it was early in the game and I voted for him to get more information so I could make a proper decision.

As for me copying what you said in 70 that is also not true.

I don't like Collatz' response to this though. I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell. What merit does vote hopping this early in the game have to scum that it doesn't have to town? What would make scum more inclined to vote hop than town? I don't know, and I don't think Collatz knows either. I think he's just looking for an easy way to seem pro-town.

Throughtout your entire ISO I can't find any mention of information gathering so could you link me to the post. Otherwise this argument here doesn't hold up.

Essentially, Collatz is admitting that—in hindsight—my play wasn't particularly alignment indicative. What I'm trying to think through is whether a newer player would pick up on this in the initial stages of the game. Of course my play could have been seen as suspicious at first glance, especially in the early stages where not much else is going on. I'm thinking that newer-player-Collatz is more likely to have tried to exploit it for its suspicious look than actually challenging me due to him viewing me as scum.

I freely admit there is nothing alignment indicative in your vote hopping but it was early in the game (still RVS) and it confused me as to why you would do it. As I've said before I din't find it to be either a town move or scum move and so I treated it as a scum move and voted for you to put you under pressure and to get more information so I could get a better read. on you.

Read through his iso and you'll find that he spent the beginning talking about how it was so scummy, bla bla bla.

If you read through my ISO you will find I didn't spend the beginning called you scum. I only actually said that you were really scummy at onence (68) and I did so because I voted for you in 29 and 39 posts later you still hadn't responded to my vote and I thought outright stating I believed you to be scum would make you more likely to respond (and I was right).

So by now we've established that Collatz doesn't know how my actions were scummy. Apparently his view is that town has a stronger desire to not stand out than scum. This is the opposite of what is actually (or should actually) be the case.

I'm gonna try and explain this but it probably wont come out right. Vote hopping is a suspicious and I believe town are more likely to want to avoid being suspicous than town are. Why? Because scum players only try to appear as town and if they are caught it doesn't matter to them as much because whilst they will be out the game they have not been unjustly lynched. If a town player was accused of being scum it would feel worse for them because they are being wrongly accused. Because a town player doesn't want to be wrongly accused I do believe they are less likely to do anything suspicous. Hopefully someone can follow my reasoning. If not I'll try again later. Or maybe my reasoning is completely wrong but it is still what I thought.

[Alchemist21]

^RE: the last paragraph

I can understand your reasoning of Town trying to not be suspicious, and it's probably true that most Townies think twice about something to make sure it's not taken the wrong way, but it's also more likely that Town will do something suspicious and not care than scum will because scum are the ones trying not to get caught, and are the ones who want to avoid attracting attention to themselves.

As far as Collatz goes, I think this is coming fro him being newer to online Mafia, and maybe even more specifically new to MS.

[DarkLightA]

@Collatz, you make some fair points. Re: gathering information I see you mentioned it in #105 too. I missed that. I don't see how you talk about information gathering in #81 though.

This is what I meant by my gathering information. It's between the lines, but pretty clear:

but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

I see what you're saying about the town vs scum divide on suspicious behavior, but you're wrong (you'll usually be wrong anyway). But that's okay, it's a learning process. You'll find that scum in almost all cases have more to lose from a lynch than town, and thus will be more hesitant to stand out.

I don't like the new "information gathering" explanation you've come up with, especially seeing as it was only something that came out after you were put under considerable pressure. It seems like this is something you've made up retroactively rather than the initial intentions in your actions. That's okay, but I'd like you to be honest if that's the case, because it's not looking too good the way you're portraying it now.

Your posts are increasing giving off a feeling of willingness to cooperate though, which I find pleasing.

[Lucky2u]

I think I have played with only 2 of you before- Red Coyote and

Lucky2u

. In ongoing games with two of the others.

I am in the process of catching up but I had to stop and hate on this post for the gross misspelling of my name...

~~~I see no fault. ~~~

[mnemonicdevice]

Many apologies to you good knight.

~~~Thank you for being so kind to our resident hallucinant. These asylums house all sorts of strange people.~~~

[wgeurts]

Out of the kindness of my heart I've fixed that horrific spelling mistake. Am I not a generous God?

[Lucky2u]

I think I have played with only 2 of you before- Red Coyote and

Lucky2u

. In ongoing games with two of the others.

I am in the process of catching up but I had to stop and hate on this post for the gross misspelling of my name...

~~~I see no fault. ~~~

Many apologies to you good knight.

~~~Thank you for being so kind to our resident hallucinant. These asylums house all sorts of strange people.~~~

Out of the kindness of my heart I've fixed that horrific spelling mistake. Am I not a generous God?

This mod is truly a kind god...

[Lucky2u]

People who aren't voting right now, why ?

Those are just the latecomers+ Innocent child but your question is just as valid as ever, why haven't they got around to it? (minus IC that is)

Is the implication that as the IC I can decide to not vote but other players have to so that they show their motives? Clearly since the only confirmed town player is doing something, the behavior can't be seen as too suspicious.

[Lucky2u]

Spoiler:

(...) at the early stages of a game where there isn't much info I treated it as more of a scum move than town move.

Turns out, this (#91) is the first and only place he references voting me to gather information. I find it suspicious how related to my own talk of information gathering in #70

Acutally, that is incorrect. In 81 I make a reference and in 91 and 105 I say exactly that:

used it as an oppurtunity to try and get some information early in the game.

As I said before it was early in the game and I voted for him to get more information so I could make a proper decision.

As for me copying what you said in 70 that is also not true.

I don't like Collatz' response to this though. I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell. What merit does vote hopping this early in the game have to scum that it doesn't have to town? What would make scum more inclined to vote hop than town? I don't know, and I don't think Collatz knows either. I think he's just looking for an easy way to seem pro-town.

Throughtout your entire ISO I can't find any mention of information gathering so could you link me to the post. Otherwise this argument here doesn't hold up.

Essentially, Collatz is admitting that—in hindsight—my play wasn't particularly alignment indicative. What I'm trying to think through is whether a newer player would pick up on this in the initial stages of the game. Of course my play could have been seen as suspicious at first glance, especially in the early stages where not much else is going on. I'm thinking that newer-player-Collatz is more likely to have tried to exploit it for its suspicious look than actually challenging me due to him viewing me as scum.

I freely admit there is nothing alignment indicative in your vote hopping but it was early in the game (still RVS) and it confused me as to why you would do it. As I've said before I din't find it to be either a town move or scum move and so I treated it as a scum move and voted for you to put you under pressure and to get more information so I could get a better read. on you.

Read through his iso and you'll find that he spent the beginning talking about how it was so scummy, bla bla bla.

If you read through my ISO you will find I didn't spend the beginning called you scum. I only actually said that you were really scummy at onence (68) and I did so because I voted for you in 29 and 39 posts later you still hadn't responded to my vote and I thought outright stating I believed you to be scum would make you more likely to respond (and I was right).

So by now we've established that Collatz doesn't know how my actions were scummy. Apparently his view is that town has a stronger desire to not stand out than scum. This is the opposite of what is actually (or should actually) be the case.

I'm gonna try and explain this but it probably wont come out right. Vote hopping is a suspicious and I believe town are more likely to want to avoid being suspicous than town are. Why? Because scum players only try to appear as town and if they are caught it doesn't matter to them as much because whilst they will be out the game they have not been unjustly lynched. If a town player was accused of being scum it would feel worse for them because they are being wrongly accused. Because a town player doesn't want to be wrongly accused I do believe they are less likely to do anything suspicous. Hopefully someone can follow my reasoning. If not I'll try again later. Or maybe my reasoning is completely wrong but it is still what I thought.

I am for a town collatz. I think it's pretty clear that his behavior thus far has been growing pains of joining this SPECIFIC online mafia community. Those of you who have played off this site or IRL should know that this game can be very different depending on who and where you play it. (On a side note, playing it drunk at a Con is probably the best way to play it IRL)

[Lucky2u]

VOTE: Darklight

[DarkLightA]

Care to shed some light?

[Lucky2u]

That kind of goes against your name doesn't it?

[DarkLightA]

Fair point.

[Lucky2u]

I am voting you because I find you the most scummy of the players in the game so far. Does that better answer your question?

[Otolia]

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

[DarkLightA]

Otolia, why haven't you come up with anything productive so far? You've asked questions and made empty statements.

(...)one could argue (...) I've got nothing better to do with my vote (...)

Why the distancing from the vote? Do you not stand by your actions?

[Reubus Swagrid]

@Reubus : Are you an alt ? If not, would you consider yourself newbie ? What are your experiences ?

Unfornunately no, I'm new. I would definitely consider myself newbie, I've played a little outside MS. It would seem testing other people's reactions has earned me a few votes. *adding to reads ensue
UNVOTE: Collatz

Considering I haven't played all that many games my last game generally can't be a basis for how my next few games play out

[curiouskarmadog]

It would seem testing other people's reactions has earned me a few votes.

what post EXACTLY were you trying to gauge people's reactions?

I have voted you, thoughts on me, now?

[curiouskarmadog]

more tingle.

[curiouskarmadog]

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

what post do you feel like Dark is "grasping" at straws?