Mini 1651: One Flew Over The Monkey's Nest(Scum Wins!)

[Metalcyanide]

Aqua: why you switching from me to mykonian?

But I am going to VOTE: mykonian becasue I find his hard defense of me to be off and his defense of Boon is just dumb.

[Aquanim]

Aqua: why you switching from me to mykonian?

But I am going to VOTE: mykonian becasue I find his hard defense of me to be off and his defense of Boon is just dumb.

I'm marginally more sure about him than about you.

[pisskop]

myo is a fair move.
boons is perhaps better

[Aquanim]

myo is a fair move.
boons is perhaps better

meeeeh... I'd do it, but without the association with Mykonian the case for Boonskiies is a touch sketchy. Then again, there is a bunch more Boonskiies posts to analyse now.

Boonskiies' case on Toolenduso seems like something thrown together hurriedly, and I don't really buy it. He decided he wanted a case for why Tool was scum, then went through Tool's ISO picking out posts he could say something about. (The bad and paranoid player in me wants to say that Boonskiies split it up into so many posts and spammed the thread so that my post would no longer be on the last page, and would thus not be so visible. Bad and paranoid, though.)

Boonskiies' claim that Mykonian would have attacked him regardless of Boon's alignment if Mykonian were scum:

Spoiler:

...
Yeah metal might be scum. But only if tool's not. Again, ScumMykonian would have bussed ScumBoon hands down there. There was absolutely no reason to protect me. At all. And ScumMykonian would have pushed TownBoon. There's no possible way that Mykonian is scum.

does not go well with his claim that Mykonian has prior experience with Boon and would know not to lynch him:

Spoiler:

Also, I disagree with Mykonian being suspicious for saying not to lynch me. If anyone is pushing my lynch it is OBVIscum driven as absolutely no association flips will be told by me dying. It is only Day 2. I am a Day 4+ lynch kind of person; mykonian has some experience with me.

Does Boon seriously think that Mykonian's alignment would be solely and reliably determined by whether Mykonian tried to lynch Boonskiies? Does he seriously think Mykonian is that unaware of what he would do as town when he rolls scum? Even supposing that Boonskiies' opinion of what Mykonian would do as town is accurate, that doesn't add up.

[TheDudeAbides]

I never said we didn't agree on these things. I'm just kinda annoyed the conversation has come to stand still and was hoping for something new, sorry

It really makes more sense for you to try to work with me than to try to alienate me.

Aqua, you know I'm an alt. How come you haven't mentioned it in the thread?

It didn't seem relevant. I'd almost entirely forgotten finding out, for that matter. I don't know who you're an alt of.

You don't think that people would read me differently depending on what they perceive my experience to be?

If you thought being an alt was important, why didn't you mention it earlier? Who is your main?

I won't be answering who my main is.
As for the first question, I'm actually more interested in Aqua's response, which was fine, than anything.

1st part yes it does make more sense to work with you.
2nd part you using an alt makes 0 difference to me personally

1st part, well then why didn't you?
2nd part, it should.

I should have been more careful about the dude. I don't like him now I reread.

That's a shame.

Issue is that dude-IL scumteam doesn't make sense.

Well, since I'm town that is certainly true, but why do you think that it's a reasonable set of criteria to be using at all?

Where did this come from? Like, why ask this all of a sudden?

Aqua indicated awhile ago that he knew I was an alt - the post where he put something in spoilers. I planned to ask him about it at some point since then. This seemed like a good moment.

Am I the only one who finds this reaction weird? I mean, why get this mad at somebody you think is scum? For that matter, why get this mad at anyone simply for being inactive?

Myk is just lecturing his buddy.

Eelyse, could you bullet your case on metal?

Sure.

At first I townread metal for not knowing that the game wasn't open, but then he immediately believed that RC was an "adorable cop" or something ridiculous like that. I feel like scum are more likely to believe a townie's claim no matter what because they know the person is town and probably isn't lying. Him showing no skepticism whatsoever was very strange. So I think his ignorance wrt to general setup and roles is either a wash or leans scum.
Other things:
-votes RC for a "joke", but keeps vote there after realizing it was a joke
-calls tool, eektor, and myself lurkers, showing he's not actually that involved in the game
-wanted to lynch an un-CC'd cop Day 1
-willing to lynch anyone as a VT except for IL
-lots of complaining about there being no conversation, but not starting one himself
-misreps me by saying I am advocating we ignore Boon, then tries to pass it off as a reaction test

I agree that his arguments are nuts.

What you did was misrep me, get called out on it, and pretend it was a reaction test. It clearly wasn't one and anyone on a 1st grade reading level can see that.

Metal tell me about the test, what you found townie about the responses, what you were thinking when you did it.

Well I think I'm pretty much done here, if I'm lynched good game scum nice win because I don't see town figuring anything out.

eh, I think that this sort of frustration is coming from town.

As scum I would think his scum buddies would help him out.

Nah.

I don't really like aqua's push on Eeh p. 59.

Myk: this is mostly gut, I don't like a lot of his pushes.

Which ones? I mean he is voting me.

Metal: opinion seems divided on him, and I can tell why. Not sure what to make of this one.
Dude: not much content, can't get a handle on this slot.

Then why are these scum reads?

Mykonian why have you defended me so much? You seem to be the only one.

:_(

In short, I think that Mykonian's read of Boonskiies is extremely suspect.

ok, rereading.

I think it's stupid to lynch boon.
I should have been more careful about the dude. I don't like him now I reread.
Don't want to lynch cyanide, IL still looks shifty.

Issue is that dude-IL scumteam doesn't make sense. We are likely looking at 3 since this is a mini, tool or elyse is likely sitting in my blind spot. Curious game, not enough scum.

vote the dude.

other possible person sitting in a blind spot is aqua, I guess.

First, he states that it is stupid to lynch Boonskiies. There is an argument to be made for this, along the lines of "we are better off lynching a slot we can know is scum rather than a coinflip". That's a reasonable point to make, though I'm not sure I agree - but it is NOT a reason to TOWNREAD Boonskiies. I do not think a reason to strongly townread Boonskiies exists in this game. It also presumably only applies to today's lynch - if Boonskiies is scum, which is quite possible, we can't just never lynch him if we want to win.

In the final part of this post Mykonian applies process-of-elimination to determine that Toolenduso, Elyse or myself must be mafia.

But he has not actually eliminated Boonskiies

. I do not think there is any possible way for Mykonian, as town, to come to the conclusion that Boonskiies is certainly town and that therefore one of Tool, Elyse or myself must be mafia.

The most likely reason for this is that Boonskiies is Mykonian's scumbuddy, and that having come up with a reason to "eliminate" him from the pool (a reason which only applies to today's lynch, at best, in fact) Mykonian felt able to ignore him in his process-of-elimination, even though this does not actually make any sense from a town perspective.

It is also possible, though less likely, that Boonskiies is town and that Mykonian was just lazy. I do find it hard to believe that Mykonian would rule out so juicy a mislynch as Boonskiies though.

I see no way that Mykonian can have come to this conclusion as town. It simply doesn't make any sense for a townie to hard townread Boonskiies here.

---//---

I also think Metalcyanide is scum but there is the outside possibility that Mykonian is white-knighting him. One way or another, given the certainty which Mykonian has displayed towards the slot despite paltry evidence, Mykonian either knows certainly Metal is town or is pushing all-in to try to avoid a Metal lynch.

I think I would prefer to lynch Mykonian today

but given the trouble we've had actually putting together the votes for a lynch consolidation on Metal may be safer.

Spoiler: Regarding Metaltown and Lemonscum

Given the way the Metalcyanide and InsidiousLemons wagons formed at the end of day 1, with a Metal wagon remaining from before Taly's flip and then an Insidious wagon forming in response - I do not think that InsidiousLemons scum and Metalcyanide town is a feasible theory. This is a votecount representative of the end of day 1:

INSIDIOUSLEMONS [5]: eektor,

pisskop

, TheDudeAbides, mykonian, Metalcyanide
METALCYANIDE [4]: Aquanim, Boonskiies, Elyse, Toolenduso
MYKONIAN [1]:

RadiantCowbells

NOT VOTING [1]: InsidiousLemons

If InsidiousLemons is mafia and Metalcyanide is town, who are the scumbuddies of InsidiousLemons who are trying to save him?

Furthermore, knowing that I am town and my historical ability to force a lynch through, I do not believe that if InsidiousLemons is mafia and Metalcyanide is town I failed to achieve a Metalcyanide lynch. I almost have a hard time believing Metal can be town at all given that.

I also don't think Mykonian's reasons for townreading Metal are sufficient to explain how strongly he has defended Metal.

Town. On it's own, I find post 282 stood out as a very town post. After that, the way the wagons form and reasons why the votes on him appear are the way mislynches form.

Like, so

vt

claiming like that is just silly, not scummy. But it's good at getting you attention and votes. Despite it just being a game, it's easy to form a mob.

Problems with this post:
- I see no way in which #282 was a town post at all. This was the post in which Metal claimed (entirely without basis) that a RadiantCowbells lynch would provide the most information, and said some meandering stuff that didn't really accomplish anything to Taly.
- Nobody is lynching Metalcyanide because he claimed VT.
- No explanation of why the Metal wagon looked like a mislynch wagon, and I also believe this simply isn't true. I pushed it against the town-Taly wagon and met significant resistance. The way the InsidiousLemons wagon assembled in response seems to be to be quite likely to be at least partially a scum response, whether it is a town wagon or a bus on inactive scum.

I take back everything negative that I ever said about aqua.

Aquanim - yeah, scum scum. only twice, though. tool is 3 times.

Weird.
What am I missing?

[TheDudeAbides]

Vote: Myk

[pisskop]

vote: Myko

[TheDudeAbides]

My could you say a few words about your Boon/Aero read?
I'm also a bit curious about your RC read from day one.

[pisskop]

Boon? I'm no expert in reading boonz, which is why Im not voting him, but pressure will get him posting. Like others, I feel there is more to be gained going after other scum, and PoEing him.

[pisskop]

RC? She was a natural target for additional pressure. When it became clear she was town I tried to get her to come back and play.

[pisskop]

I hope you're not coming into her point of view. How much easier it would be for ScumKop to simply ignore her than talk with her.

[TheDudeAbides]

I meant that to be addressed to Myk.
Autocorrect dropped the k.

[mykonian]

@Town

: If you're not voting Mykonian with your next post I want to know why.

Curious thing, shifting the onus of proof. In real life it's obvious, here in practical nature it hides that the wagon is based on gut feeling and little else. But one votes and more follow. Case? There isn't any. It's a collection of things that don't "feel right", interactions that are strange to you. And the funniest part is that if you'll actually force people to come with reasons, everybody will have their personal ones.

I mean, for testing purposes you could give it a go and see if I actually got it right, but it's not really the point.


I think dude asked me about my interaction with RC. I've put enough words in boon and metal lately anyway. And it suits me in this light to talk about RC anyway.

Now at the start of the game I had some rememberance of RC, don't even know if I played with him or read games with him. Regardless, early on that memory got quite reinforced. RC is a detriment to his team and the game as a whole. He's not looking to work together and is quite aggressive in that. I don't believe pages filled with argumentation between two or three people get anywhere. Usually it just rehashes the same arguments anyway and people get more mad with each other, making the argument more about emotion than anything.

Then there's the issue that this annoys me. Now, just like with people arguing, that doesn't make me read the opposite party any better. I'd be inclined to call such a person scum. Don't want to though, for one, RC doesn't live long anyway because of his play, and for second, if he was scum, playing the way he did, he'd go over the top somewhere "leading the town to their doom". So I don't want to lynch him, on the other hand I know he's not helpful. Gotten that far, I stopped acknowledging him and only spoke about his person anymore, that part of the game could wait two or three days. I wasn't going to put a stamp on his allignment at that point, and reading him and arguing with him would likely make my chances worse than actually letting it go and playing with other people.

Not that it helped anything, in the end. Still think it was the proper course. I know I'm going into self meta here, but imagine I'd have taken the same vitriol and put it in actual arguments against RC, what do you think would have happened to the game?

[mykonian]

Does he seriously think Mykonian is that unaware of what he would do as town when he rolls scum?

That's one you can test on meta, 90% sure.

They don't match.

[Bellaphant]

And Mykonian wanders in to... throw crap at someone scumreading Metal! Suprise, suprise!

it's not even throwing crap in this case. It's a post with a couple of reads with short sentences accompanied.

Metal is under scum, it has the observation that bella doesn't understand how others aren't scumreading him, then she doesn't know what to make of him.

The only read of her own in there is the implied one that metal is obvious scum.

It's the one read I want to ask after, yes. The rest I get more or less even if I disagree.


I mean, I read the post after now, I am not surprised that people would be scumreading me. I'm dropping half thoughts and reads into the thread, some of my opinions run contrary to the town, I'm a stubborn guy by nature. That stuff gets gut scum reads. Which is what bella posts about, which is what a couple other people in the game have alluded to.

That happens every game. The difference per game is how people deal with it.

This seems ridiculously self aware, but also put the focus for his behaviour onto other people, leaving him with an easy out for any scum!behaviour, while also offering token support for my post.

Do know that you replaced IL...?


Did you miss the part about his claim?

Yes? Day 1 looks really messy for a bunch of people, who all ended up flipping town. Just saying, odd day 1 play in this context doesn't equal scum. Also, no, sorry, I was typing up my notes and forgot that bit.

Actually, I can say that better in more words.

Aeronaut wasn't widely suspected. Boon is quickly moving to the position of default lynch. The only thing that changed to that slot is that a new player came in who doesn't post. The whole case is "he doesn't post". It's shortsighted to judge that slot on just boon, which I guess is a better word than "stupid", but then, language isn't my strongest side.

On top of that it doesn't smell like scum lurking. If that's what's going on, the dude, tool, lemons are players that come to mind as options.

Support of Boon, while implying that a 'default' lynch is bad. Then mentions my slot, who was being replaced, as lurkers. Don't like this.

Well, you've amused me a little, Boonskiies, but unless someone else in this game takes you seriously and I have to disillusion them, pointing out your fabrications is a waste of my time. Suffice it to say that Mykonian being scum is the only reason he could have to townread you. (As opposed to try to put off your lynch for a later day, which he could conceivably do as a townie.)

The replacement and I haven't talked much yet. That, and her read, will change.

This whole back and forth has raised my town-read of Aqua and made me re-think Boon's null read.

Boon? I'm no expert in reading boonz, which is why Im not voting him, but pressure will get him posting. Like others, I feel there is more to be gained going after other scum, and PoEing him.

Just an aside, but I really like this post.

Aqua: why you switching from me to mykonian?

But I am going to VOTE: mykonian becasue I find his hard defense of me to be off and his defense of Boon is just dumb.

I like this question, and his read on Boon seems consistent. Feeling a bit (but not much) better about Metal.

Dude's 1554 makes me suspicious.

Thanks for putting up with me catching up. Feel like I'm a bit more on top of things. I'd like a Vote Count before I put a vote anywhere.

[Aquanim]

@Town

: If you're not voting Mykonian with your next post I want to know why.

Curious thing, shifting the onus of proof. In real life it's obvious, here in practical nature it hides that the wagon is based on gut feeling and little else. But one votes and more follow. Case? There isn't any. It's a collection of things that don't "feel right", interactions that are strange to you. And the funniest part is that if you'll actually force people to come with reasons, everybody will have their personal ones.

I mean, for testing purposes you could give it a go and see if I actually got it right, but it's not really the point.

Well, that's an interesting attempt at misrepresenting the case against you as "gut feeling" but it won't fly.

For the record, the purpose of that question is twofold:
1) If somebody does not fully understand the case, hopefully their answer makes that clear and I can clear up any misunderstandings.
2) If somebody has an actually good reason to think the case is flawed, I certainly want to hear that.

"Shifting the onus of proof" doesn't come into it. I've done my share of the proving.

Not that it helped anything, in the end. Still think it was the proper course. I know I'm going into self meta here, but imagine I'd have taken the same vitriol and put it in actual arguments against RC, what do you think would have happened to the game?

I think you'd have had to argue with RC, and that you'd avoid that regardless of your alignment or whether you thought you would "win". I imagine the point you're trying to make is that as scum you would fill the thread with rubbish by arguing with RC... but since you obviously know you wouldn't do that as town, and arguing with RC is a pointless exercise that might make you look bad, I hardly find it a convincing argument.

[mykonian]

In short, I think that Mykonian's read of Boonskiies is extremely suspect.

ok, rereading.

I think it's stupid to lynch boon.
I should have been more careful about the dude. I don't like him now I reread.
Don't want to lynch cyanide, IL still looks shifty.

Issue is that dude-IL scumteam doesn't make sense. We are likely looking at 3 since this is a mini, tool or elyse is likely sitting in my blind spot. Curious game, not enough scum.

vote the dude.

other possible person sitting in a blind spot is aqua, I guess.

First, he states that it is stupid to lynch Boonskiies. There is an argument to be made for this, along the lines of "we are better off lynching a slot we can know is scum rather than a coinflip". That's a reasonable point to make, though I'm not sure I agree - but it is NOT a reason to TOWNREAD Boonskiies. I do not think a reason to strongly townread Boonskiies exists in this game. It also presumably only applies to today's lynch - if Boonskiies is scum, which is quite possible, we can't just never lynch him if we want to win.

In the final part of this post Mykonian applies process-of-elimination to determine that Toolenduso, Elyse or myself must be mafia.

But he has not actually eliminated Boonskiies

. I do not think there is any possible way for Mykonian, as town, to come to the conclusion that Boonskiies is certainly town and that therefore one of Tool, Elyse or myself must be mafia.

The most likely reason for this is that Boonskiies is Mykonian's scumbuddy, and that having come up with a reason to "eliminate" him from the pool (a reason which only applies to today's lynch, at best, in fact) Mykonian felt able to ignore him in his process-of-elimination, even though this does not actually make any sense from a town perspective.

It is also possible, though less likely, that Boonskiies is town and that Mykonian was just lazy. I do find it hard to believe that Mykonian would rule out so juicy a mislynch as Boonskiies though.

I see no way that Mykonian can have come to this conclusion as town. It simply doesn't make any sense for a townie to hard townread Boonskiies here.

---//---

I also think Metalcyanide is scum but there is the outside possibility that Mykonian is white-knighting him. One way or another, given the certainty which Mykonian has displayed towards the slot despite paltry evidence, Mykonian either knows certainly Metal is town or is pushing all-in to try to avoid a Metal lynch.

I think I would prefer to lynch Mykonian today

but given the trouble we've had actually putting together the votes for a lynch consolidation on Metal may be safer.

Spoiler: Regarding Metaltown and Lemonscum

Given the way the Metalcyanide and InsidiousLemons wagons formed at the end of day 1, with a Metal wagon remaining from before Taly's flip and then an Insidious wagon forming in response - I do not think that InsidiousLemons scum and Metalcyanide town is a feasible theory. This is a votecount representative of the end of day 1:

INSIDIOUSLEMONS [5]: eektor,

pisskop

, TheDudeAbides, mykonian, Metalcyanide
METALCYANIDE [4]: Aquanim, Boonskiies, Elyse, Toolenduso
MYKONIAN [1]:

RadiantCowbells

NOT VOTING [1]: InsidiousLemons

If InsidiousLemons is mafia and Metalcyanide is town, who are the scumbuddies of InsidiousLemons who are trying to save him?

Furthermore, knowing that I am town and my historical ability to force a lynch through, I do not believe that if InsidiousLemons is mafia and Metalcyanide is town I failed to achieve a Metalcyanide lynch. I almost have a hard time believing Metal can be town at all given that.

I also don't think Mykonian's reasons for townreading Metal are sufficient to explain how strongly he has defended Metal.

Town. On it's own, I find post 282 stood out as a very town post. After that, the way the wagons form and reasons why the votes on him appear are the way mislynches form.

Like, so

vt

claiming like that is just silly, not scummy. But it's good at getting you attention and votes. Despite it just being a game, it's easy to form a mob.

Problems with this post:
- I see no way in which #282 was a town post at all. This was the post in which Metal claimed (entirely without basis) that a RadiantCowbells lynch would provide the most information, and said some meandering stuff that didn't really accomplish anything to Taly.
- Nobody is lynching Metalcyanide because he claimed VT.
- No explanation of why the Metal wagon looked like a mislynch wagon, and I also believe this simply isn't true. I pushed it against the town-Taly wagon and met significant resistance. The way the InsidiousLemons wagon assembled in response seems to be to be quite likely to be at least partially a scum response, whether it is a town wagon or a bus on inactive scum.

eh, your case currently is that I don't want to vote boon because I'm his buddy. I wish you good luck proving that one.

[mykonian]

aaand I didn't think I had quoted that whole post. Lovely.

"The most likely reason for this is that Boonskiies is Mykonian's scumbuddy, and that having come up with a reason to "eliminate" him from the pool (a reason which only applies to today's lynch, at best, in fact) Mykonian felt able to ignore him in his process-of-elimination, even though this does not actually make any sense from a town perspective."

was the key sentence I needed from it.

[Elyse]

I've been trying to read along but my eyes keep glazing over. I had a terribly busy day. Will be back tomorrow.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count 2.04 - up to post #1568.

Mykonian[4]: Aquanim, Metalcyanide, TheDudeAbides, pisskop[L-2]
Metalcyanide[1]: Elyse
TheDudeAbides[1]: mykonian
eektor[1]: toolenduso
Toolendoso[1]: Boonskiies

Not Voting[2]: Bellaphant, eektor

Mod Notes: Eektor, Mykonian and TheDudeAbides are V/LA.

With 10 alive, it requires 6 votes to lynch.
Day ends on Monday, April 6th at 7:00 PM USA Mountain Time, or when a lynch occurs

[TheDudeAbides]

Dude's 1554 makes me suspicious.

That's nice to know.
Why don't you read it, since I asked you something in there.

[TheDudeAbides]

I don't think that Myk thinks that I'm scum.

[mykonian]

don't think too much, it makes your head hurt.

[TheDudeAbides]

That was your invitation to say something about it

======[]
[]======

[mykonian]

so... you don't think I'm thinking that you are scum, despite that I do.

what response is there apart from me thinking you shouldn't be thinking so much?