Open 589: Duck Duck Goose (Game Over: Somebody Won)

[talah]

davesaz (do i have to bold this?) you still avoided my question about why you voting me at ehn end of the day does not equal doing nothing. you anwered the other questions fairly methodically, if you could answer the ones you missed that would also be appreciated.

[Honey bee]

I'm not quite sure what to make of your first point. Maybe you're having trouble following along.

Grey makes a comment about fearful scum. I get painted as said fearful scum because I was "afraid to commit to a wagon". I point out that a) I'm anything but fearful today and b) no reason for scum to be fearful before the flip. How does that have anything to do with whether fearfulness is the correct diagnosis for the no-kill? How does the possibility that scum just screwed up and forgot to send a kill order have any relevance to a bogus case on me being fearful, or on my response that such a case is patently absurd?

Secondly, in that case, scum screws up sending the kill, and town assumes that scum were afk -- means that town got it right. Is there a subliminal message here, that town has it right this game too? How would you know that, unless you're scum? Or is the subliminal message that town has it wrong this time and it was a time issue? In which case, you're scum again?

Unless I am misunderstanding something, Talah is criticizing you for describing yourself as "not fearful" when the way you avoided both wagons could be described as "fearful". I don't think they're implying that scum are fearful but saying that defending yourself as "not fearful" therefore town doesn't make sense. The relevance is that you were the one to bring it up in 729, and your implication that fearful = scum is mostly on your part.

And no, town were wrong; scum were there during the night they just didn't make a decision before deadline. My point was nka is ass and basing reads on it is bad. Why is that statement implying I'm informed? I never said that scum no killing wasn't out of fear.

Next, your "point" against vettrock. Did you actually give reasoning which shows depth of thought and trying to figure out the game? I'm having a little problem with finding anything deep you have posted. TBH I had trouble reading your posts and in general. Care to explain where the depth is, in case I just missed it?

Spoiler:

In post 145, Netherspite wrote:
Please do me a favor and go through vettrock and davesaz posts and then give some read on them not based on your gut.
I'm curious.
?

Ok i didn't need a reminder 2 posts later. I guess at this point i would say they are sidelining but theres something more to it. Like how davesaz is asking for reads from someone who has made their position clear but he hasn't made an effort to clearly state his own. Vettrock just hasn't commented enough for my liking.

But now I want to talk about vettrock:
vettrock wrote:
The naked vote for ploben with just "discuss". I was looking at your vote for kaboose the same.

Ok:
1. You never called that scummy. So why are you trying to compare me to a wagon you didn't support?
2. Why is a naked vote starting a wagon scummy? I just said I had a reason and you weren't supporting any previous wagons anyway so how is a new wagon bad.
3. Chrivi has more content than me? So? I'm contributing, is me not having as much as chrivi alignment indicative? And I honestly question that you think chrivi has significantly more analysis than me.

Excuse me? Have you read my posts? You know you've been pinging me for a long time, and I've already stated my problems with your vote. Now you are just misrepping me now that someone else is getting pinged by you too.

VOTE: vettrock

In post 527, vettrock wrote:
I can see where dave and GREYICE are coming from with Taly. It is often a good strategy as scum to post a lot of wordy posts to give the appearance of scum hunting. Given that it is his first game, I'm not sure that is what he is doing, but he seems to have more knowledge of the dynamics of the game than most newbies.

I also see and agree with the whiteknighting that Nethersprite seems to be doing with Taly. I think it would be too obvious to be doing to your scum partner, so I would say at least one of the two is town, but I can see one scum possibly in there.

I'm still thinking town for Kaboose, just because the reasoning behind the wagon seemed weak (along with the other two previous wagons)

I'm bacpedaling on Honey Bee as my reasoning was flawed because I didn't go back far enough to see her posts on Kaboose, so it seemed more out of place that it actually was.

I mean this is the most go with the flow thing ever, not only echoing things said in the thread, but redacting his read on me even though he shifted it to me being opportunistic scum reading him. After I put a vote on him and accused him of misrepping me, he forgets about this and excuses his unvote for being wrong about his original reason in order to avoid backtracking through that.

Then why did you attack me for this?
In post 468, vettrock wrote:
Pisskop is voting against me due to me being non-committal. This is a legitimate concern. Honey Bee then says that she was considering jumping on my wagon as well. I consider that comment by Honey Bee to be either opportunistic or sheep. My vote is staying there for now.

Even if I was sheeping or just joining on, how is that not applicable to your nether read just now?

And explain your reads a bit more. It's really unclear to me what you value as scummy and don't. You think theres scum between taly and nether, but you think taly is less scummy than kaboose (552 ???). and you're interested in the oddmusic wagon, is there a reason for odd over kaboose other than odd is the bigger wagon?

Oh you know, Not providing content early on, calling me scum for something that he never thought was scummy, misrepping how much content I provided and misrepping my suspicion of him as sheeping when I've stated he was scum from my first post, Backpedaling and completely avoiding those points, providing a shitty, contradictory and hypocritical reads list, the usual scum tells.

However, that's not my point. I get ignored all the time, I'm used to it. My point is that 5 people wanted to lynch vett and 5 people wanted to lynch odd. You excused yourself from both wagons, you never gave either slot a fair analysis. That makes me think you wanted to avoid the issue entirely.

Also good job avoiding the last part of my post which was what I wanted to focus on.

I'm sorry I've paid no where near enough attention to this game.

Does anyone have a reason Talah isn't scum?

I think the way they reacted to the vettrock lynch yesterday was pretty obviously from an uninformed position. Or at least I doubt scum berate a wagon they know will flip scum and avoid a chance to persuade someone off that wagon when asked for reasons to switch.

[davesaz]

davesaz (do i have to bold this?) you still avoided my question about why you voting me at ehn end of the day does not equal doing nothing. you anwered the other questions fairly methodically, if you could answer the ones you missed that would also be appreciated.

My vote: Post 592 Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:16 am
My last post of the day: Post 648 Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:03 pm
End of day: post 663 Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:29 pm

My previous vote was not at the end of the day. I had a choice between vote odd, vote vett, do nothing. I did nothing (in terms of voting) for about 36 hours, 8 of which was between my last post and end of day. I

explicitly chose not to change my vote

. Your question was not very smart, but I allowed you time to realize it yourself.

[davesaz]

Also good job avoiding the last part of my post which was what I wanted to focus on.

I'm not discussing my GreyICE read, for a very good reason which involves people not asking about it. I can say that most people, possibly all, are wrong about what my read is.

[ChriVi]

I'm here, sorry I've had a busy week. Gonna read later when I'm not super busy... If there's any questions for me I might miss on a skim please quote em here ;3;

[GreyICE]

Dave is towns, 90%

And no, I don't really do anything D1 because informationless days are boring as hell. D2 is when I pay attention and start doing shit... Not that I ever survive until D2 because I've been mislynched in 85% of my games (pretty sure that's a pretty accurate ratio)

YO HYDRA

WE WANT SOMETHING

I GET IT YOU HAVE FINALS AND ALL THIS ASSORTED STUFF AND I RESPECT THAT BUT GET YOUR ASS DOWN HERE AND GIMME SOME CONTENT.

[pisskop]

Yo're still voting for town.
. Fix that.

[pisskop]

Yo're still voting for town.
. Fix that.

@Chrivi

[davesaz]

Yo're still voting for town.
. Fix that.

Prove it by finding scum, and I'll think about it.

In the meantime, you're the one voting for town.

[pisskop]

Cute. You're about tied with me for eating rope.
. I found my scumz.

[oddmusic]

Ach…prod dodge. Having difficulty keeping keyed into this game.

Did my ISOs of pisskop and Talah. FWIW I thought pisskop looked very towny, between the way he's pushed me consistently since his arrival to what I think is the natural evolution of his reads. Still not sure about Talah. Will try again later.

[Honey bee]

Also good job avoiding the last part of my post which was what I wanted to focus on.

I'm not discussing my GreyICE read, for a very good reason which involves people not asking about it. I can say that most people, possibly all, are wrong about what my read is.

That's not really what I'm asking about and you explicitly said you were wary of him yesterday but ok my vote will stay here until you do.

[davesaz]

I'm not sure what you want.

I was, and still am, wary of GreyICE. He could be scum. I never like it when people appease me, and he's done it like 3 times already.

[davesaz]

There, I pissed away any chance to catch him trying to continue to appease me, if he's scum. Hope you're satisfied.

Now let's solve the game folks. At least one scum remaining on Odd's wagon.
The other scum could be on either wagon. If the 3rd scum is on Vettrock's wagon, it will likely be someone trying to look super townie, to make the most of the bus credit.
Another good place to look is someone attacking me. If you're town then you really should be recognizing that I'm driving here.
Specifically Pisskop, if you're town then the OMGUS is going to get you lynched.

[Honey bee]

Would you rather have him stubbornly defend his taly read?

When you question town, you should expect them to reevaluate their position. Changing your mind is a mark of town usually. you asked:

When I read Taly's posts, I see "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance then baffle them with your B.S." Are we on the same wavelength on that?
What I'm not sure of is how to make that alignment indicative. How do we know it's not just "loquacious newb"?
I think we get plenty of information anyway, and that's good for town, but weigh Taly vs Vettrock with that question in mind. Still like Taly better?

This question is coded with a doubt on the taly read. You cite his massive amount of words as potentially part of his personality, and ask him to compare to vett again. When he does this and switches back, you call it appeasement even though you asked him to reconsider. So I'm asking what was the point in that question. It feels loaded, especially since vett flipped scum, switching and defending his taly read could be interpreted as an opportunistic jump off. So I'm wondering what you were looking for in a town response, as your question was already leading to what he did and you read that as scummy.

Peedit: oh please. You already accused him of that. I don't think he has long term memory loss and if he was appealing scum he'd already avoid that behavior.

[davesaz]

I expected town to have a little discussion about the relative merits of the cases. Yes, I cast doubt on Taly because I had a legitimate doubt. I thought Vettrock was scummy and asked a question, compare how scummy these two players are. I didn't expect an immediate switch.

Repeating my previous question, how would it be good play for scum me redirect a forceful player like GreyICE onto my partner when it looked like lynching Taly would be easy? That, by itself, should clear me. Which is good since I am town.

Town should not be wasting energy on me. Let's catch scum together. For those town not wasting energy on me, pay attention to the people who continue this behavior.

[Honey bee]

And why was that switch scummy as oppose to town changing their mind? Why did you give taly the benefit of the doubt and not grey?

It's good play because scum like to attack town where their weak, and switching at that time would look bad assuming he kept on taly. I don't believe you expected him to change his mind either due to his absolutely assertive personality, which is why you attacked him after persuading him. I have a hard time being convinced that players have to disagree with you to be town.

[davesaz]

Where do you get the idea that I think town have to disagree to be town? I have specific meta on a specific player. That player's reaction to the meta could be totally sincere, or it could be manipulative. If he's scum but I buy it as sincere, there's a very good chance that town loses, because he'll take me to lylo and I'll help him win. If he's town and I take it as manipulative, worst case we end up in lylo and I help scum win by voting him. So I'm playing it soft right now, and trying to use other behavior and associatives to sort him while telling my fellow townies to be wary.

My vote is on Pisskop. I'm not even pursuing GreyICE as scum right now. He's a little bit scummy, which means I'm not convinced he's town.

Why is this even a question at this time?

If I were scum trying to paint town GreyICE as scummy, don't you think voting him would be a good idea?

Your vote, last I checked, was inexplicably on me. I'm as close as can be, without an actual flip, confirmed town.

• The whole point of your question is that I told GreyICE to switch to Vettrock. Scum would be absolutely crazy to do that when Taly would have been easy to lynch.
  
• Scum me could easily vote Odd and save Vettrock. Without Vettrock's lynch it might be suspicious but it's not the obvscum that people make it out to be.
  
• Scum me could easily vote Vettrock, point to my post telling Grey it was a better idea, and get mega town points on the flip.

I know people hate self meta, but check the very first game on my wiki page. It's a newbie where I had doubts on an assertive player, failed to act on those doubts, and lost as town.

[Honey bee]

No, my point is it backfired on you. You avoided looking at either of those wagons at deadline because of poor reasoning. It doesn't have to do with your piss vote or your read on grey now. I think scum were holding their breath for the momentum of the wagons to shift back and you fit that description. Scum off either wagon wouldn't want to stick their neck out either way to keep from either being known as the person who saved scum or giving vett absolutely no chance of recovering. I don't think its unlikely for scum to ask that either, since vett was at a whooping one vote at the time and it feels like a nice way to attack a stubborn player with low risk.

If you want me off your back, please stop with these wifomy assertions and justify why you avoided those wagons. I've made these statements against you a few times so its not "inexplicable" thanks.

[davesaz]

I've said truthfully what I did. I literally did exactly what I said -- looked at the situation and dared scum to try to change things.
If you don't believe me then so be it. A flip will prove you wrong.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I've posted a real case based on what someone actually posted, not based on 8 hours of silence. Where is everyone?

[Honey bee]

Do you have a reason for scum reading piss other than unjustly claiming credit for vett's lynch?

[davesaz]

Voted someone you didn't have a scumread on. Maybe goading a partner to be active?
Dropped it like a hot potato at 2 votes after a 3rd player acts like he's going to join in.
Vote that player, who was a scum read before but you didn't vote him then.

After the flip

, claim you started the Vettrock wagon, and by extension that you're somehow responsible for it.

There are 4 points to my case on Pisskop. The most important one is point 3, voting Odd only when the wagon on Vettrock got hot, when Odd was a scumread before and Vettrock was not. You're selectively focusing on point 4, which is the attempt at a coverup. Yes, that's an important part of the case, but it's icing compare to the sequence of points 1-3.

[Honey bee]

I was asking a question because I didn't understand your case and now your using that to call me scum with piss wow. You spent most of that post observing how quickly piss moved off vett so that's what I assumed you were emphasizing (plus you underlined and separated the last point).

Actually I still don't understand it. Jumping off of vett I can agree is of interest, but why is voting odd in particular any different than from just falling off?

[pisskop]

OMGUS is what Dave means to say.

We should lynch it.

[davesaz]

I was asking a question because I didn't understand your case and now your using that to call me scum with piss wow. You spent most of that post observing how quickly piss moved off vett so that's what I assumed you were emphasizing (plus you underlined and separated the last point).

Actually I still don't understand it. Jumping off of vett I can agree is of interest, but why is voting odd in particular any different than from just falling off?

You're misinterpreting part of that post, but it's a reasonable misunderstanding.

Voted someone you didn't have a scumread on. Maybe goading a partner to be active?
Dropped it like a hot potato at 2 votes after a 3rd player acts like he's going to join in.
Vote that player, who was a scum read before but you didn't vote him then.

After the flip

, claim you started the Vettrock wagon, and by extension that you're somehow responsible for it.

There are 4 points to my case on Pisskop. The most important one is point 3, voting Odd only when the wagon on Vettrock got hot, when Odd was a scumread before and Vettrock was not. You're selectively focusing on point 4, which is the attempt at a coverup. Yes, that's an important part of the case, but it's icing compare to the sequence of points 1-3.

Rephrasing last paragraph. The way it was written made it sound like I'm accusing you of the coverup because I left out a referant, but that's not what it actually means.

There are 4 points to my case on Pisskop. The most important one is point 3, voting Odd only when the wagon on Vettrock got hot, when Odd was a scumread before and Vettrock was not. Point 4 was Pisskop's attempt at a coverup today.

You're selectively focusing on point 4. Yes, that's an important part of the case, but it's icing compare to the sequence of points 1-3.

@Pisskop, your vote on me is the OMGUS. I did say that people attacking me are most likely to be scum. That has included Honey Bee along the way, but I'm feeling more town vibes from the attempt to work with me on this. You on the other hand are missing out on the opportunity to identify someone who actually has a nonzero chance of being scum as your new target.