Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[BBmolla]

The only reason I'm voting you is cause I actually think you're scum and don't give much of a fuck how I look, if I did care that wouldn't be the best move.

Wifom idc

[Alchemist21]

Alche do you think I'm bad at this game?

TBH, yes.

A game filled with veterans and content and that's the post you muster? Telling us your mafia theory about rvs?

Are you serious?

It was page 2, or did you forget to check the post number?

[BipolarChemist]

I fell asleep last night writing it (READ MY POSTS ;_;).

I diiiiid and I sawwww I was giving you a nudge!

Actually, since it's not going to get a really interesting answer, I might as well give away serrapaladin is what I was driving at re: Quilford here, here, and here.

So you were looking for reads from Quilford and more specifically on Serra? (Excuse me if I'm reading this wrong!) I don't see how this has to do with much really. I don't think you got much of an answer either since Quilford kinda made his answer vague after his not wanting to make a readslist.

I was reading back in order to respond to you, went, "Huh, serrapaladin's big post is actually a lot less substantial than I remember. Maybe I should reevaluate." So then I had a moment of paranoia about Quilford for being all, "ilu Mina for your gorgeous reads!" (also, since I think that's the point where Empire started chiming in with, "Hey, Mina, watch out for Quilford, because Regfan and I have been TALKING about him" and I started getting paranoid).

As for why I initially townread him...I had a positive reaction to his big post because I agreed with virtually all his opinions, and I just liked the tone for some reason.

You put Serra as "probably town" with Quilford and ETL without much explanation. Serra had made two posts, one without much content. Even with agreeing with the points in one post, how can you call that town so quickly? I just don't understand that. Furthermore, I don't understand how you're now saying Serra could be scum. Serra has done nothing. I don't get how that's not null.

ETL I remember there were specific posts I townread (I forget what they are, but I'll look for them when I get home), but it's mostly gut and just that she looked like she was scumhunting in her interactions with Mara/Quilford. Quilford's actual case I thought was..eh, all right for an RVS case? ETL's first few posts were a bit iffy, although I don't know if "jumpy" is the word I'd use and I remember her looking a lot better at the point you jumped in. But your post felt very empty and felt more like it was subtly pushing the ETL-is-scummy-because-look-someone-made-a-case-on-it, but without joining the wagon or really coming across as though you sincerely believed it.

In the question I asked you to respond to, I even mentioned I had made a few posts before the one you're calling empty about some thing ETL had said. I was under the impression others were bothered by those posts too, which I pointed out. At that point ETL was probably the closest I'd be to calling someone scum. I also emphasized fairly heavily that I didn't have strong reads there too. I feel like you're slightly misrepresenting my post despite me pointing out that I had commented on a number of ETL's stuff beforehand.

(Speaking of which, where is ETL, I know she's been on today...?)

I buy the teammate argument--tbh, I was expecting someone to go, "Omigod, you're subtly casting doubt on Quilford by blaming Regfan." However, Empire and Regfan are both fantastic town players (not that Zar is bad by any means, either!), so their opinions have a lot of weight with me, and we're being very hands-on with each other's games so far. Expect their names to be mentioned a lot more.

My teammates are much better players than I am, but I feel as though if I were to just take their reads at face value and throw them out here, that's being kinda sketchy. Like I could see scum throwing out their partner's reads like you have and then having them easily glossed over, which I feel like even I have done (glossing over that is). For town, I feel like it's a bit lazy I guess? Like if you're saying a partner's read, but you are kindaish disagreeing or not seeing it, why are you not asking them and talking about it? When you're posting a read (like your partners thinking I'm townish, but you not), are they having more reasoning, are you actively discussing why or why not I or someone else is town or scum? I'm really bothered by these kinds of things you have been throwing out and hence my vote on you. And your response here feels very much so sloughing it off as "Oh they're better than me".

[BBmolla]

Alche do you think I'm bad at this game?

TBH, yes.

A game filled with veterans and content and that's the post you muster? Telling us your mafia theory about rvs?

Are you serious?

It was page 2, or did you forget to check the post number?

Least you're honest.

My point stands.

[BBmolla]

What makes me bad scum over bad town?

[BBmolla]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=60558

Before the inevitable "you can't read someone off so little" here's me catching scum page 1 so don't bother with that argument thanks.

[BBmolla]

Your first three posts are literally nothing

Like good luck deflecting onto me, not my fault you fucking obv scummed in the first two pages.

[Alchemist21]

What makes me bad scum over bad town?

You came in when the wagons are tied, vote me for what Patrick said, and don't say anything about the rest of the game.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=60558

Before the inevitable "you can't read someone off so little" here's me catching scum page 1 so don't bother with that argument thanks.

You may be able to get serious reads based on the early game, but most people can't. Why don't you explain your Serra read?

I will say that your posts in that game are similar to this game, so I may be wrong about you.

[Alchemist21]

Overall, I like BPC's posts so far. He seems to be considering everything and trying to understand the players and the game thoroughly to form an opinion. I'd say he and Patrick are my top 2 Town reads.

[Mina]

@BPC, I don't want to do quote stripes, so general responses to this:

1) serrapaladin is now in my pool by PoE, since I have reasons to like most of the player list. He

could

be scum, basically.
2) Quilford saying his readslist wasn't identical to mine meant virtually all the mileage I'd get out of the "why did you sheep a flawed reads list" line of inquiry was gone.
3) Yep, I had an instinctive gut town read on him based on one post that I liked felt like trying. Why do you find that so out of the ordinary?
4) I was hoping to be lazy tonight and not reread all the early ETL stuff, but maybe I'll have to do it. The entire exchange was not all that interesting to me beyond "oh, hey, this post by BPC sounds like a scum post." It has less to do with what you argued and more to do with how.
5) The game started yesterday, and so far, our conflicting schedules, time zones, and sleep patterns mean we've rarely been online at the same time--and when we have, they'll go, "hang on, I want to focus on this game first." As a result, our conversations about Twin Trap haven't really become a dialogue yet. (E.g., Regfan's reads were messages on Skype I saw after he'd gone to bed). Actually, I like that you made the observation about lack of discussion, since it's true so far, but it'll probably change soon

if Empire ever gets back to me about why he town reads you instead of putting it off to watch

The Walking Dead

HEY EMPIRE THIS IS A TEST ARE YOU READING THIS GAME YOU LAZY FUCKER?

6) I don't know, I get why an outsider might dislike it, but I much prefer being transparent and sharing this kind of inter-team stuff, particularly since, e.g., I don't feel comfortable pushing a you-wagon when half my team is against it. (I mostly mentioned the Regfan reads as pressure on Quilford, though.) And frankly, I suspect that people value their opinions more than mine, so I feel compelled to share them.

However, that was at least an improvement, so I'd thank you if you weren't messing with my biases and making the game harder.

[Mina]

Mara, ETL, serra, I'd like to hear more from you, please.

[Quilford]

So Alchemist, define 'scumhunting' please.

[Alchemist21]

Examining pushes and opinions to see if you can understand the motivation and reasoning behind it, and pushing the players you think are scummy.

[Quilford]

And you would charge me with not doing that?

[Alchemist21]

From what I've seen, yes.

How would you define scumhunting?

[Quilford]

Similarly. I wonder if anyone else agrees with you that I haven't been scumhunting given your definition.

[Mina]

Quilford, as a fair warning I don't think you're going to get anything productive by continuing to argue with Alchemist at this point. I think the case has been made, and turning this into a back-and-forth might start to bog up the thread. Remember the adage about not convincing scum that they're scum?

Doing a reread, but I'm posting this here since my notes will be in spoiler tags and I want it visible.

Ok.. I'll have to check and see if this is how you always do things. I think it's weird.

Did you ever get around to checking up on this?

[Quilford]

Quilford, as a fair warning I don't think you're going to get anything productive by continuing to argue with Alchemist at this point. I think the case has been made, and turning this into a back-and-forth might start to bog up the thread. Remember the adage about not convincing scum that they're scum?

YES, MOOOOM

[Mina]

I think it's really weird that BPC is assigning his own reasons for

my

read.

Can you explain this?

[Mina]

(Hee hee, I was talking with some of my team but deliberately not mentioning this game just to see how long it takes Empire to notice my post. ^_^)

Spoiler: Early game thoughts that became a rambly, wishy-washy stream-of-consciousness wall, so I'm spoilering them

Rereading the early pages to get a better picture of the game. Posts like these I guess is scumhunting. However, it felt like a bit of a stretch (where'd he get the part about her yelling at him?) The wording bugged me because it's just all soft and trying to be nice and friendly...but I interact with BPC a lot, so the tone is probably more a personality than an alignment tell for him.

ETL's Mara vote is pretty bad. Quilford's vote there makes sense in context.

Just noting that Alchemist's RVS post in context is perfectly vote-worthy, so no, BBmolla isn't confirmed scum for doing it. (I would have liked him to weigh in more on Alch's following posts, though, since that seems to be more of what triggered Patrick et al's reaction. I'd appreciate a bit less of a narrow focus.)

I'm not

really

fond of ETL's early posts to me, mostly because her response to me is a bit stretchy and exaggerating stuff. (Also, I didn't really get the impression from Mara that she's overreacting to serra's posts.) Actually, I definitely see what Quilford was going for there in the post numbers he mentioned, even if I'm not sure he's using the best adjective to describe it.

(TBH, I could see Alchemist's posts here as something player-dependent, but I get the not-scumhunting argument, since he's just dissecting other people's arguments/defending people without really contributing.)

Reading more closely, this BPC post makes really solid points, but the last one is wishy-washy and which is what pinged me at first, I think. That in tandem with his next post is probably what triggered my suspicion.

Come on, people, Quilford is town

It's hard to put it into words, but I do think Mara's side of the ETL-Mara exchange looks fairly town. I don't know if I can give a better explanation than "she looks genuine."

It's not really that weird or noteworthy at all?

Okay, Alchemist is probably scum. Kind of boring.

Don't like 58.

I guess ETL's BBmolla vote is somewhat convenient, but I did follow her on it, so it's definitely a plausible reaction.

I liked 68. I'm pretty sure I had a town read on ETL before she switched to BBmolla, though, so now I'm trying to retrace why--I think because her tone was confrontational and I liked that she was getting into the middle of things.

Okay, I guess 71 is good. The follow-up on Quilford is fluffy, but kind of null for BPC.

...wait, apparently, 71 was the post I suspected him for. Um...that's awkward.

Oh, phew! It's the next one I really suspected. (I'll admit that in hindsight, my impression of him posting only fluff was unfair, and probably influenced by his rather soft posting style that I tend to skim a bit--now I see there's an actual progression on how he chases after ETL's Mara argument.)

ETL's 76 is kind of town.

78 is still really wishy-washy (the stuff about Mara is kind of there), but I concede that the part about ETL is much better now that I see it reflected in his earlier posts. At the time, it came off as "there's a case on ETL, which EVERYONE knows is true"--something I see scum do a lot. Goddammit!

Dammit, I like Alchemist's 85, actually, since it's what I was thinking.

Okay, BPC has a tone I'm incapable of not reading as scummy. So many emoticons and exclamation marks. Except I don't think it has anything to do with his alignment.

Oh, I like 99 from ETL, actually.

Okay, Serra's post is fine, and he mirrored virtually everything I was thinking at that point--including ETL's kneejerk being town. Actually, I like his reaction in 108, because he states succinctly my problem with that post. He can still be scum until he gives more of a follow-up, though.

Now is where I'm stopping. However, as a little reward for anyone who opened this spoiler, I'm just noting here that someone on Patrick's team probably put down scum tokens, because I think he'd have claimed with an all-town token distribution. You're welcome.

The tl;dr version is that Mara and BPC (although I'm not fully ready to eliminate him from my suspect pool yet, since I don't think he's said anything unfakeable) look better, while I'm now more suspicious of ETL, because a lot of

her

posts are a bit off/fakeable...but her town play could just be kind of reactive...

.____.

Oh, and also, both Regfan and Empire think ETL is town!

._______________________.

I guess I'm baking Patrick waffles for breakfast.

That didn't take long.

[Mina]

(To be completely fair to Empire, he wasn't feeling well, but trolling is still fun.)

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

Could you answer this if you're still around, BBmolla?

[Quilford]

I think it's really weird that BPC is assigning his own reasons for

my

read.

Can you explain this?

I think I understand what was going on here, if you want me to explain.

[Patrick]

However, as a little reward for anyone who opened this spoiler, I'm just noting here that someone on Patrick's team probably put down scum tokens, because I think he'd have claimed with an all-town token distribution. You're welcome.

2 town on Fenchurch, 2 town on me, no scum. I'd have started this kind of thing if the game had been boring.

[BBmolla]

I find Alchemist's early posts (particularly the questions at quil) lack direction, as do BPC's, to a lesser extent.

^He's says this then doesn't vote you

typical scumbuddy shit

[BBmolla]

(To be completely fair to Empire, he wasn't feeling well, but trolling is still fun.)

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

Could you answer this if you're still around, BBmolla?

I'll be real, I get BPC confused with DV cause of the avatar. So I donno I'll go look.