Paradise Lost - [Game Over]

[lalaladucks]

I'm on my (screencracked) phone as my laptop isn't cooperating, so it's a little harder to read the stuff ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've gathered that Muffin dislikes Cupcake (Katsuki) for some reason I guess, other than rivalry...
And mollie replacing out was very strange, yes - I'd initially thought maybe because she got town and thought it was boring so left..? But the others seem to think more likely she was scum? Idk, I haven't completed any games with her so I'm not sure what she prefers.
Gaiden's lurking is annoying, the no lynch vote was kinda strange (was it a joke?)
But quite a few players haven't even joined us yet, so we can't make any hasty conclusions.

I dislike the "easyness" of this post, for lack of a better word. I hope to see something a little more substantial from lalala in her next post.

I refer to his general behaviour, not in this game especially.
It's RVS - what does a No Lynch vote achieve? Nobody is pressured, people are distracted by it and wonder why he did it..
Did you agree with the No Lynch vote? Did it seem completely ordinary and a good way to progress the game?

lalala, you need to get up to speed. I just spent ~30 minutes reading the game and I feel sufficiently caught up with what has been discussed so far. I was willing to cut you slack with your first couple of posts being kind of lame, but with this post I get the idea that this is as far as you're able to delve into SXTLH's plan. These questions are too shallow and come across as though you're just throwing out useless filler.

VOTE: lalaladucks

Ah, I see you joined in 2008. Did you see when I joined?
What kind of exceptionally significant things do you expect from me at this point?

You want me to delve into Gaiden's play?
Okay, then I'll surely be obliged

VOTE: No Lynch

idk what this is supposed to achieve...

cause no lynch is clearly superior

rightio, it achieves superiority, nice.

We no lynch until the Angel's kill doesn't go through.
Then the Angel claims and we are reduced to mountainous w/ a bulletproof IC who still has all the input of all the dead town.
We get no sin until then so the sin counter only goes up from that point.

Others have already responded to this, but here's my take; with this strategy the power of townies is minimised. Demons get to kill whichever innocent people they like each night. Town doesn't get to lynch who they think is a demon. To me, it seems like a better option to take the chance and lynch the most suspicious candidate - at least there's a chance we'll get the right one.

@Gaiden
If only 1 kill goes through and somebody claims angel with a CC, how do you know which is the angel?

this is another issue with gaiden's plan

Scenario 1: Angel claims angel, scum must counterclaim. we lynch one, then the other if needed.
Scenario 2: Demon Claims angel, angel does not counterclaim since it is a for sure demon kill.

am i really missing something here?

Hmmm.

@Gaiden
If only 1 kill goes through and somebody claims angel with a CC, how do you know which is the angel?

this is another issue with gaiden's plan

Scenario 1: Angel claims angel, scum must counterclaim. we lynch one, then the other if needed.
Scenario 2: Demon Claims angel, angel does not counterclaim since it is a for sure demon kill.

am i really missing something here?

(1) means potentially lynching the bulletproof vig
(2) is impossible with factional roleblock

I agree with pretty much everything the MuffinMan says. He's more eloquent at expressing his take than I am, currently. He also made a gameplan before the game started!? That's commitment. Do people usually do that ?

so we always just go back to case 1 then.
50% for conftown w/ scum kill

This doesn't make much sense imo.

look, gaiden, you're wrong

do any playtests with your idea and you'll see it's a largely scum-sided plan even without the possibility of basically outright losing because of the 50/50 chance

it's not good for town

like even assuming scum don't find the angel for 3 whole nights, you're looking at a 36% chance the vig hits no scum in that time and the numbers are 7:4 after that. if they block the angel the following night, 6:4 mylo

then you're gambling the game on a 50% chance of hitting only one scum

with 2 nights of being unblocked, it's a bit less than 50% chance of hitting scum with the angel shots and leaves us at 9:4. it's scum-sided here

even if the angel manages to hit one scum before they're blocked, it's still scum-sided by the time it goes into mountainous... the only way it wouldn't be scum-sided is if (a) scum players are incredibly bad / obvious, or (b) angel gets incredibly lucky

your plan is dumb. the game was designed around getting 2 town-controlled kills for every 1 scum-controlled kill

just... stop arguing it if you haven't even considered the numbers

sin is never going to be a way town loses if it's controlled properly (or if we hit scum with lynches) - like we can control it so that, assuming we lynch at least one scum by D3, the sin counter is only 2 by D4... sin is not an issue in this game unless the collective reads are just so bad that it becomes an issue, which is more a problem with the town being bad than the sin counter being an issue

This makes sense imo.

RedCoyote, maybe if you ask me a specific question I'll find it easier to contribute something you consider useful

[grapes]

hi

VOTE: sakura

having a difficult time resonating with their posts

[Katsuki]

i don't dislike cupcake

don't take it personally, cupcake, i tried to woto everyone but fakegod didn't consider me wise enough to allow that apparently

prick

too late

dick

[Katsuki]

@RC: I may have stuck my foot in your mouth but I fail to see how I stuck it in mine.

and he;s clearly scum

[lalaladucks]

hi

VOTE: sakura

having a difficult time resonating with their posts

Hey

Is there anything in particular that strikes you as odd or is it a general vibe?

@RC: I may have stuck my foot in your mouth but I fail to see how I stuck it in mine.

and he;s clearly scum

You're weird and it's hilarious

[Sakura Hana]

Not a fan of lalaladucks posting either, specially their "Hi im newbie, so i suck" kinda defense.
@muffin: There's a few QTs i never read, one of them was marketplace i think touhou in the land of fantasy was another, iirc it was because too many posts, so i was hoping you would inform me on that.
@RC: So do you agree that mollie is likely to have replaced out from a scum role PM? I don't really understand your stance there, I agree with your points about lalaladucks however.
@Grapes: What exactly about my posts dont resonate?
And Gaiden reacted in a way i didnt expect him to react to a read from me. Or rather a way i didnt expect town Gaiden to react to a read from me.

Unvote
Vote: Gaiden

[lalaladucks]

Not a fan of lalaladucks posting either, specially their "Hi im newbie, so i suck" kinda defense.

Did I say that I suck? I don't recall saying I suck

Although, I have been referred to as lalalasucks, not sure if it was intentional or a typo though.

We have slightly more than four pages. It's great if you guys can ascertain who's scum from that, but I can't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Sakura Hana]

Ah, I see you joined in 2008. Did you see when I joined?
What kind of exceptionally significant things do you expect from me at this point?

^
This is what im referring to.

[Sakura Hana]

We have slightly more than four pages. It's great if you guys can ascertain who's scum from that, but I can't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No one's saying that, you were accused of asking shallow questions, not of not finding scum.

[lalaladucks]

Ah, I see you joined in 2008. Did you see when I joined?
What kind of exceptionally significant things do you expect from me at this point?

^
This is what im referring to.

inexperience and some difficulty in early game stage ≠ sucks

We have slightly more than four pages. It's great if you guys can ascertain who's scum from that, but I can't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No one's saying that, you were accused of asking shallow questions, not of not finding scum.

Well, okay. I guess my initial question seemed shallow, but I try to ask a general question first, then from the answer if I don't think much has come to light, I will sometimes ask a more specific question, stemming from their answer. May not be a great strategy, it's just what I do. Unless there's something specific I've picked up on which seems off.
The one I asked wasn't the only question I'd thought of; other people had already asked about a lot of the things I was wondering.

[Equinox]

Unvote, Vote: Elbirn

Which reminds me
@Equinox: You were questioning lufan on his vote switch to Glass, while you are now voting Glass does this change your read on Glass from mollie's replace out? Do you think lufan's town/null/scum?

I questioned lufan131 on his vote switch to Glass because I saw the discrepancy between not voting when I presented my reason and using essentially the same reason when he switched. His explanation seems adequate, but I don't have much of a read on that slot yet.

As for your latter question, this one's going to be fun: I had a fairly good idea of why pirate mollie replaced out, and it was likely due to not this game but a recently completed game. I did not want to divulge the fact that such a reason existed so that I could read Glass and whomever decided to play bandwagon. Glass's behavior has seemed town.

And mollie replacing out was very strange, yes - I'd initially thought maybe because she got town and thought it was boring so left..? But the others seem to think more likely she was scum? Idk, I haven't completed any games with her so I'm not sure what she prefers.

What do you think of the people who pushed that wagon?

Scenario 1: Angel claims angel, scum must counterclaim. we lynch one, then the other if needed.
Scenario 2: Demon Claims angel, angel does not counterclaim since it is a for sure demon kill.

am i really missing something here?

Yes. The fact that you weren't seeing it is giving me pause. Scum are probably hyper-aware of the downfalls of this plan, so it's just a matter of figuring out how sincere you were.

the grapes i get here in my country are not sweet. So I am not big fan of grapes. A lame reason but still true...

That sounds like an RVS vote. What did you think of the Glass/pirate mollie votes? What made you choose to make an RVS vote over any other kind?

hi

VOTE: sakura

having a difficult time resonating with their posts

Why?

[Sakura Hana]

inexperience and some difficulty in early game stage ≠ sucks

Well probably sucks was the wrong definition, but i really dislike it when players use their inexperience as a defense when accused of not scumhunting/posting filler/lurking/etc. It always goes to the same thing, and it annoys me because more often than not, it gives scum tons of places to hide, which means while you could be legit be a newbie that really doesnt know what to do, you are as likely to be scum pretending that you dont know what to do.

[SXTLHGaiden]

even if we don't do all the no lynches, i still think we should no lynch D1
it minimizes the number of sinning townies.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn
Do you subscribe to the idea submitted by farside in post 18? (ie. you find it suspect that mollie replaced out when she did).

If so, why do you think it is more likely that mollie would replace out as scum than as town?
Do you think Farside knows enough about Mollie to accurately deduce what would make her feel busy/overwhelmed?

@lufan
If it was Farside's post that piqued your interest, I would like your answers as well.

Farsides post was an influence, yes. I suppose I don't know that Mollie would be more likely to replace out when rolling scum, but I like wagon rides and Equinox/Farside made sense. Farsides statement that Mollie isn't busy based on her posting habits on her made me wonder about Mollie; if she didn't replace out due to a lack of time, then it would make sense that her replace out was based on receiving a role she did not want...I suppose the gap in reasoning here is that we don't know that she wouldn't want to roll scum. (Though I'd like to note that Redcoyote asserts AFTER my vote, in 95, that Mollie hates playing as scum and is capable of playing lots of games and thus presumably can handle herself without being overwhelmed.)

As for your second question, I suppose I don't know enough about either of them to say that Farside would know what makes her feel overwhelmed...And I suppose the same could be said for RedCoyote's claim regarding Mollie as well. And in Katsukis post 33 (quoted next), s/he(?) states she replaced out of other games as well.

Hm.
UNVOTE:

Who knows. She recently replaced out of other games too so it may be a sitewide thing.

Lets lynch AA first, then I will discuss what our optimal strat this game is.

So is this a grudge vote or what? What's your beef with AA?

We no lynch until the Angel's kill doesn't go through.
Then the Angel claims and we are reduced to mountainous w/ a bulletproof IC who still has all the input of all the dead town.
We get no sin until then so the sin counter only goes up from that point.

As pointed out by everyone else, this isn't really the best idea. But I feel like this was put out there with good intentions, and on a surface level it makes sense; we lose if we get sin, so let's ensure that we can't get sin. Leaning town on Gaiden.

[Elbirn]

hi

VOTE: sakura

having a difficult time resonating with their posts

What even is this

[SXTLHGaiden]

hahaha, i found a rules loophole that FG had to fix.
LOL

[ArcAngel9]

Vote: AA

My vote is not moving for the rest of the game until he is lynched.

Get my gender correct first!!! Huh!!!!

p sure I have your gender correct.

Let's make a bet - if you're a dude, you get to chop off your dick.

you always this mean to otherS?

[zMuffinMan]

hahaha, i found a rules loophole that FG had to fix.
LOL

i don't think it really counts as a loophole since he was already aware of it, just fyi

[lalaladucks]

inexperience and some difficulty in early game stage ≠ sucks

Well probably sucks was the wrong definition, but i really dislike it when players use their inexperience as a defense when accused of not scumhunting/posting filler/lurking/etc. It always goes to the same thing, and it annoys me because more often than not, it gives scum tons of places to hide, which means while you could be legit be a newbie that really doesnt know what to do, you are as likely to be scum pretending that you dont know what to do.

You do have a point.
I'll try not to mention my newb-ness again.

And mollie replacing out was very strange, yes - I'd initially thought maybe because she got town and thought it was boring so left..? But the others seem to think more likely she was scum? Idk, I haven't completed any games with her so I'm not sure what she prefers.

What do you think of the people who pushed that wagon?

Well, it seems to me you started it with this:

Vote: Glass

What manner of role PM did you get that caused pirate mollie to replace out?

Then farside hopped on with this:

Vote: glass

Mollie in, Mollie out after role pm.

Which wasn't particularly strange, I don't think. Just a second vote for the same person.

@Equinox/Farside: What's the skinny on the Mollie replacement? Does she have a tendency to flake when she rolls scum, or what?

Here, in question form, Elbirn subtly propagates the idea that mollie could have recieved a scum role pm and thus replaced out.

Vote: Glass

What manner of role PM did you get that caused pirate mollie to replace out?

Also, RedCoyote, let's be masons together!

This is something i can get behind

Vote: Glass

Sakura merrily jumps on the wagon without explanation.

@Equinox/Farside: What's the skinny on the Mollie replacement? Does she have a tendency to flake when she rolls scum, or what?

Mollie hasn't replaced out pre game with me before.
I find it suspect that she replaced out when she did.
If we didn't like a player there was wotc.

If you look at her posting on ms she isn't busy or overwhelmed.

Those are my issue with Mollie.

Not sure exactly what farside is implying here, whether mollie more likely got scum or town. I guess scum would make the most sense from this comment.

And then,

I'm not a hundred percent up to speed on your fancy lingo. I get wotc = wisdom of the crowds = can pm mod to request someone not play. Didn't the signup thread said mod would use "Wisdom of the one", and if yes, what's the difference?

Either way Mollie replacement is a better case than grapes. I mean, I love grapes. They're probably my second favorite fruit. And have you tried eating glass? It's not a fun time, I assure you. You'll be picking tiny shards out of your gums for weeks.

UNVOTE: Grapes
VOTE: Glass

Still RVS? Hmmmm. Elbirn's reason seems like RVS but the vote is more serious since it's the fourth for one player, and this was only 20 posts in. Looks like Elbirn is readily casting suspicion on Glass.

VOTE: Glass
I like this idea, of what role

could

it be?

Wow, fifth on the Glass wagon and I hadn't even come to the party! Did lufan actually not know the set up..? Could be playing dumb, I guess.

VOTE: Glass
I like this idea, of what role

could

it be?

The first one was using a randomizer, now, you've piqued my intrest.

What specifically piqued your interest? The argument didn't change since before your randomized vote.

Reading a few other posts, and then I put 2 and 6 together. After waiting, I myself got curious, then.

This strikes me as a bit odd. It feels like Equinox had to ask lufan a few times why he switched to voting for Glass. Then, lufan's answer explains that he read "a few other posts" (I'm assuming that'd probably be some of the other ones I've quoted here - the votes/reasons for Glass wagon) and just joined the wagon because it "piqued [his] interest"

@Elbirn
Do you subscribe to the idea submitted by farside in post 18? (ie. you find it suspect that mollie replaced out when she did).

If so, why do you think it is more likely that mollie would replace out as scum than as town?
Do you think Farside knows enough about Mollie to accurately deduce what would make her feel busy/overwhelmed?

@lufan
If it was Farside's post that piqued your interest, I would like your answers as well.

It was. He laid it out in an easier to understand way, and if both had the same reason, I decided to look.

Glass' question here was logical, lufan's answer not so much. It's worded strangely and doesn't elaborate much on why lufan placed the fifth vote on Glass.

Then Glass asks another question and lufan answers. Blah blah blah...

Well, maybe she wasn't keeping a close eye on the signup thread and missed the chance to WOTC someone.

that or she doesn't like woto as a concept and would rather replace out than cause strife with a woto

she could be scum as well, but i doubt it's why she replaced out

MuffinMan strikes again. Rather than just hopping on the wagon he voices reasons/speculations.

Who knows. She recently replaced out of other games too so it may be a sitewide thing.

Lets lynch AA first, then I will discuss what our optimal strat this game is.

Kat chimes in with some gibberish
Doesn't join wagon, continues pushing to get ArcAngel lynch (not sure why).

After AA thanks.

We've got one lynch to burn.

Vendetta?

Okay, I've digressed a bit but that's my opinion of the wagon. It gained momentum very quickly, before Glass even posted at all. Some very interesting and noteable participation...

So, Equinox, your initial vote for Glass was a test to see who'd follow your lead and vote for Glass? Intriguing.

Was that fluff or did it seem more substantial? I hope the latter cause it took me a while to write

UNVOTE: ArcAngel9

[SXTLHGaiden]

hahaha, i found a rules loophole that FG had to fix.
LOL

i don't think it really counts as a loophole since he was already aware of it, just fyi

lol, you saw it too
didn't notice it until i reread the rules.
quite funny

[SXTLHGaiden]

so who are you lynching, i feel the need to accelerate the fun!
More Sin for Everybody!

[Sakura Hana]

so who are you lynching, i feel the need to accelerate the fun!
More Sin for Everybody!

And now you're being the gaiden i know, this is awkward.

[grapes]

Is there anything in particular that strikes you as odd or is it a general vibe?

The latter mostly. But for instance I suppose.

This:

I'm actually thinking that Gaiden might be scum this game, but i'm not sure if he was just being honest with his plan or actually had ill intentions with it, i'll have to wait for him to post a bit more and see.

Felt wishy washy. Coupled with the fact they deemed no lynching interesting and admitted to having a similar idea as gaiden at first.

Why would that generate a scum read if they were more or less on the same wavelength at the start of the game?

And while I sorta agree with their lufan townread I don't think their reasoning in 55 feels very strong. Like why would that make them lean more one than than the other enough to call someone town so abruptly?

Lufan just felt excited to start and more off the cuff, I guess is the best way to put it into words but I realize that's admittedly weak and not something I'd bring up out of the blue myself.

What even is this

A scum read.

On that note do you happen to have any of your own? You seem content so far putting most of you energy into speculating why mollie replaced out. Which at the end of the day is wifom..

[ArcAngel9]

lalaladucks - Why i miss to read a reason for your vote on me?

[lalaladucks]

My vote on you, ArcAngel, was completely RVS. Did you see the reasons I paired with the vote