Paradise Lost - [Game Over]

[Glass]

I don't like glass post 30 I didn't see an issue with lul's response that warranted a vote.

That's probably because I didn't vote lufan (lul?) because of his response. I was fine voting either Elbirn or lufan, it just so happened that lufan was there chatting, and applying pressure to people who can actually respond to it is better than applying pressure to people who are absent.

Plus Equinox never explained his reasoning.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, so I'll just assume that this is the part which "may read as gibberish".

The main pingy thing I have right now is Elbirn's vote on the Glass wagon that was all gussied up at 20. That looked a little forced to me. Not enough to plop a vote down now.

Why not? Especially if you have nowhere better to place your vote.

Pingdar

I liked lala's point about AA's reaction to her vote.

Why is this in your "Pingdar" section? This is wild speculation on my part but it seems to me you were going to post something negative about lala but then said "Well... maybe I should actually read her town". I only bring this up because I agree with The Bulge in post 186, and I'm not sure the positive things you said about lala are at all genuine.

[Glass]

If the plan is to no lynch and create no sin for scum to kill why would voting no lynch not make sense.

Yay, we get to hear for the 100th time from Sakura how she thought no lynch idea was fine but uncharacteristic of Gaiden.

[FakeGod]

VoteCount 1.2

Glass [2] - farside22, lufan131
grapes [1] - ArcAngel9
ArcAngel9 [1] - Katsuki
farside22 [1] - massive
Elbirn [2] - Glass, Equinox
lufan131 [2] - Albert B. Rampage, RedCoyote
Sakura Hana [2] - grapes, zMuffinMan
zMuffinMan [1] - Sakura Hana

No Lynch [1] - SXTLHGaiden

Not Voting [4]

- The Bulge, Tere, Elbirn, lalaladucks,

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch

.

Deadline is April 24, 2015, at Noon PST.
Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2015-04-24 14:00:00)

[Sakura Hana]

Yay, we get to hear for the 100th time from Sakura how she thought no lynch idea was fine but uncharacteristic of Gaiden.

Or i can just quote you, seems like you've been paying attention at least.

[The Bulge]

Why are our votes so spread out :/
Our biggest wagon right now is 2? Now I'm not saying we should rush a lynch because the whole sin mechanic makes that riskier than usual. But it worries me that we haven't come close to any sort of consensus yet or even a pressure wagon. Is this because of the mechanic or are we just unable to get our shit together?

VOTE: Elbirn

[Elbirn]

Why are our votes so spread out :/
Our biggest wagon right now is 2? Now I'm not saying we should rush a lynch because the whole sin mechanic makes that riskier than usual. But it worries me that we haven't come close to any sort of consensus yet or even a pressure wagon. Is this because of the mechanic or are we just unable to get our shit together?

VOTE: Elbirn

So what took you so long? You pointed a finger at me in your first post, but it took you until now to place a vote. Can you explain your thought process? What changed between then and now?

------------------

VOTE: Lufan131

Pings me as scum, and I like what RedCoyote said in 214. Baaaahhhhhhh.
This probably sounds dumb but Lufan's tone seems really...Awkward. Like everything's worded awkwardly. Carefully, perhaps. Like someone who is being cautious. Add to that the fact that pretty much every post is fluff. I don't like it.

[Sakura Hana]

So what took you so long? You pointed a finger at me in your first post, but it took you until now to place a vote. Can you explain your thought process? What changed between then and now?

I can already see his thought process very clearly, however i'll just let him answer the question himself.

[lufan131]

UNVOTE: Glass
... If this vote causes me to say the same thing 9 times, I'm not gonna keep it.

[Sakura Hana]

Carefully, perhaps. Like someone who is being cautious.

Actually this might be something, im not really that good at spotting carefulness, unfortunately i can't elaborate further about it yet.
PEdit: What.

[lufan131]

Every hour someone says "Why'd u vote glass? What do you mean you checked?"
I'm sick of answering it.

[Equinox]

Quick heads-up: I'm on a strict deadline this weekend to finish data analysis, so my time is going to be limited for the next few days. I'll try to catch up later tonight.

[Sakura Hana]

Every hour someone says "Why'd u vote glass? What do you mean you checked?"
I'm sick of answering it.

But I dont understand why you having to answer caused you to unvote, did you having to answer it 9 times remove your scumread there? did you even have a scumread there at all? What are your current reads right now?

[Elbirn]

Every hour someone says "Why'd u vote glass? What do you mean you checked?"
I'm sick of answering it.

The only thing that really happened between your unvote and your post before it was me voting for you. And I said nothing about you voting for Glass.

This is a poor reaction to pressure, and scum attempting to appease town on top of that.

[lufan131]

Every hour someone says "Why'd u vote glass? What do you mean you checked?"
I'm sick of answering it.

But I dont understand why you having to answer caused you to unvote, did you having to answer it 9 times remove your scumread there?

Yeah, pretty much. If I kept thinking "Why" I realized I was going no-where.

did you even have a scumread there at all?

Slight one. Those posts pointed out a trend, that I went to check, and that looked like it made sense in a logical manner.

What are your current reads right now?

Sakura is townread, as well as equinox. Glass is on the fence, as well as Elbrin. Lala is null. AA is leaning to scum.

I answered in

Bold.

[Sakura Hana]

Yeah, pretty much. If I kept thinking "Why" I realized I was going no-where.

How does having to answer 9 times remove your suspicion on a person? I kind of agree with Elbirn here about you trying to appease town.

Slight one. Those posts pointed out a trend, that I went to check, and that looked like it made sense in a logical manner.

So you went and meta dived mollie? Or did you just blindly trust what they said.

Sakura is townread, as well as equinox. Glass is on the fence, as well as Elbrin. Lala is null. AA is leaning to scum.

Can you explain Glass, Elbirn, lala and AA? Also if you have someone you're scumreading why aren't you voting anyone?

[Sakura Hana]

Also please dont answer within the same quote next time, it's annoying to follow, thanks.

[lufan131]

Yeah, pretty much. If I kept thinking "Why" I realized I was going no-where.

How does having to answer 9 times remove your suspicion on a person? I kind of agree with Elbirn here about you trying to appease town.

Slight one. Those posts pointed out a trend, that I went to check, and that looked like it made sense in a logical manner.

So you went and meta dived mollie? Or did you just blindly trust what they said.

Sakura is townread, as well as equinox. Glass is on the fence, as well as Elbrin. Lala is null. AA is leaning to scum.

Can you explain Glass, Elbirn, lala and AA? Also if you have someone you're scumreading why aren't you voting anyone?

Answering 9 times means I thought 9 times, so I changed my mind after realizing that's not why, anymore. I did both, I blindly followed to start. I didn't meta her, but checked the player list pre game and at start, because I wanted to be sure they had weight. I didn't like AA's adorable comment, because that made her sound like she wasn't sure herself. Glass I followed the town. Elbrin I wasn't fond of his posts, but didn't know why. Lala I just haven't gotten decicive. Good point, why aren't I voting?

Vote:AAngel

[massive]

You know what, nevermind, i don't want to turn this into Semantics War II: The return of Bulge vs Sakura

Is it important that you not interact with Bulge? Do you think semantics are something that shouldn't be discussed in general?

I'm still working on distinguishing people apart. Too many similar userpics.

[Sakura Hana]

Is it important that you not interact with Bulge? Do you think semantics are something that shouldn't be discussed in general?

No, i dont mind interacting with Bulge, i just dont want to get onto a war over who thought what word meant what, which is what happened in Hope+1 game.

[Sakura Hana]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6171737 Something around here.

[lalaladucks]

Too many similar userpics.

^

So "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" isn't what to look for?

lufan, could you please elaborate a little on your intended meaning here?

Hey all! I'm all caught up. Couple quick thoughts because I don't really do catchup posts.

Gaiden's no lynch plan is stupid, scum-sided, and over-cautious but I see nothing that makes me believe he is scum.

This may just be newbness, but lalala has made very long posts with lots of review and no actual analysis. This one in particular:

Spoiler: where is the analysis? it is a mystery

inexperience and some difficulty in early game stage ≠ sucks

Well probably sucks was the wrong definition, but i really dislike it when players use their inexperience as a defense when accused of not scumhunting/posting filler/lurking/etc. It always goes to the same thing, and it annoys me because more often than not, it gives scum tons of places to hide, which means while you could be legit be a newbie that really doesnt know what to do, you are as likely to be scum pretending that you dont know what to do.

You do have a point.
I'll try not to mention my newb-ness again.

And mollie replacing out was very strange, yes - I'd initially thought maybe because she got town and thought it was boring so left..? But the others seem to think more likely she was scum? Idk, I haven't completed any games with her so I'm not sure what she prefers.

What do you think of the people who pushed that wagon?

Well, it seems to me you started it with this:

Vote: Glass

What manner of role PM did you get that caused pirate mollie to replace out?

Then farside hopped on with this:

Vote: glass

Mollie in, Mollie out after role pm.

Which wasn't particularly strange, I don't think. Just a second vote for the same person.

@Equinox/Farside: What's the skinny on the Mollie replacement? Does she have a tendency to flake when she rolls scum, or what?

Here, in question form, Elbirn subtly propagates the idea that mollie could have recieved a scum role pm and thus replaced out.

Vote: Glass

What manner of role PM did you get that caused pirate mollie to replace out?

Also, RedCoyote, let's be masons together!

This is something i can get behind

Vote: Glass

Sakura merrily jumps on the wagon without explanation.

@Equinox/Farside: What's the skinny on the Mollie replacement? Does she have a tendency to flake when she rolls scum, or what?

Mollie hasn't replaced out pre game with me before.
I find it suspect that she replaced out when she did.
If we didn't like a player there was wotc.

If you look at her posting on ms she isn't busy or overwhelmed.

Those are my issue with Mollie.

Not sure exactly what farside is implying here, whether mollie more likely got scum or town. I guess scum would make the most sense from this comment.

And then,

I'm not a hundred percent up to speed on your fancy lingo. I get wotc = wisdom of the crowds = can pm mod to request someone not play. Didn't the signup thread said mod would use "Wisdom of the one", and if yes, what's the difference?

Either way Mollie replacement is a better case than grapes. I mean, I love grapes. They're probably my second favorite fruit. And have you tried eating glass? It's not a fun time, I assure you. You'll be picking tiny shards out of your gums for weeks.

UNVOTE: Grapes
VOTE: Glass

Still RVS? Hmmmm. Elbirn's reason seems like RVS but the vote is more serious since it's the fourth for one player, and this was only 20 posts in. Looks like Elbirn is readily casting suspicion on Glass.

VOTE: Glass
I like this idea, of what role

could

it be?

Wow, fifth on the Glass wagon and I hadn't even come to the party! Did lufan actually not know the set up..? Could be playing dumb, I guess.

VOTE: Glass
I like this idea, of what role

could

it be?

The first one was using a randomizer, now, you've piqued my intrest.

What specifically piqued your interest? The argument didn't change since before your randomized vote.

Reading a few other posts, and then I put 2 and 6 together. After waiting, I myself got curious, then.

This strikes me as a bit odd. It feels like Equinox had to ask lufan a few times why he switched to voting for Glass. Then, lufan's answer explains that he read "a few other posts" (I'm assuming that'd probably be some of the other ones I've quoted here - the votes/reasons for Glass wagon) and just joined the wagon because it "piqued [his] interest"

@Elbirn
Do you subscribe to the idea submitted by farside in post 18? (ie. you find it suspect that mollie replaced out when she did).

If so, why do you think it is more likely that mollie would replace out as scum than as town?
Do you think Farside knows enough about Mollie to accurately deduce what would make her feel busy/overwhelmed?

@lufan
If it was Farside's post that piqued your interest, I would like your answers as well.

It was. He laid it out in an easier to understand way, and if both had the same reason, I decided to look.

Glass' question here was logical, lufan's answer not so much. It's worded strangely and doesn't elaborate much on why lufan placed the fifth vote on Glass.

Then Glass asks another question and lufan answers. Blah blah blah...

Well, maybe she wasn't keeping a close eye on the signup thread and missed the chance to WOTC someone.

that or she doesn't like woto as a concept and would rather replace out than cause strife with a woto

she could be scum as well, but i doubt it's why she replaced out

MuffinMan strikes again. Rather than just hopping on the wagon he voices reasons/speculations.

Who knows. She recently replaced out of other games too so it may be a sitewide thing.

Lets lynch AA first, then I will discuss what our optimal strat this game is.

Kat chimes in with some gibberish
Doesn't join wagon, continues pushing to get ArcAngel lynch (not sure why).

After AA thanks.

We've got one lynch to burn.

Vendetta?

Okay, I've digressed a bit but that's my opinion of the wagon. It gained momentum very quickly, before Glass even posted at all. Some very interesting and noteable participation...

So, Equinox, your initial vote for Glass was a test to see who'd follow your lead and vote for Glass? Intriguing.

Was that fluff or did it seem more substantial? I hope the latter cause it took me a while to write

UNVOTE: ArcAngel9

I mean this post has absolutely nothing in it. And then Tere goes on to call it a "decent attempt at wagon analysis".

laladucks - while I hated her initial intro and the don't hurt me I'm a newbie routine, and while reading through I thought I'd place a vote for sure, I thought 118 was a decent attempt at wagon analysis and I liked her poke at AA at 126. The teasing looks relaxed too. Better.

Gurl that's not analysis. That's a tl;dr of the thread.

Well, Equinox asked me what I thought of the Glass wagon; I believe I conveyed what I was thinking with that post. I wasn't actually asked for analysis. Tere did say it was "a decent attempt at wagon analysis" - which actually implies it wasn't analysis, merely an attempt.

The Bulge has made very long posts with lots of review and no actual analysis. This one in particular:
post 188
I mean this post has absolutely nothing in it.

but lalala has made very long posts with lots of review and no actual analysis.

So what do you call this?

One post that stood out to me in my read-through and made me say "oh boy" and opened it in another tab.

Do you believe I intentionally conjured up a load of fluff or what?

Ah, I see you joined in 2008. Did you see when I joined?
What kind of exceptionally significant things do you expect from me at this point?

Gross. Come on, lalala, a newbie card?

I'll try not to mention my newb-ness again.

I'm not expecting anything of you except to honestly tell us what's going through your mind when you read these posts. If your best contribution to the game is "It's RVS... what does a No Lynch do???", then I argue you're not being very honest. Either you didn't take the time to actually read what Gaiden was doing with his vote, or you were giving me fake frustration.

I wasn't intentionally being dishonest. I was genuinely kinda frustrated cause the plan didn't seem very well thought out.

also why does this feel like an everyone try their best moi inpersonation game?

Who's trying to impersonate you?

UNVOTE: Glass
... If this vote causes me to say the same thing 9 times, I'm not gonna keep it.

This seems odd to me, just feels weird.

So I'm gonna vote for someone soon, but really not much else has happened lately.

[Sakura Hana]

Also could someone please explain to me what's the deal with Elbirn? i don't see why he's being wagonedm he asked what was the problem was with mollie's replace out and got his question answered so he decided to follow suit, am i missing something super obvious or what.

[farside22]

Let's see if I can finish this read today.

Leaning town on lala, didn't like the newb comment but the analysis and posting come across as free thinking and no inhibitation

Scum reading elb currently. Comes across as uncertain compared to the last game we played together he pushed what he felt.

Also AA is still reading like fluff scum to me. The point of the question to lala was to just push on an unnecessary reasoning and reads as trying too hard over nothing.

Tere: explain to me how figuring out the sin can be considered auto town to you and not just busy work without scum hunting.

I totally have no clue where Sakura is coming from. Grill gaiden to voting muffin.

Vote: arcangel

Abr: walk me throw AA read if true.

My expectation of muffin vs gaiden are 2 seperate things AA, no freeking comparison if you played with both.

Okay I feel better about Sakura again because I was thinking AA/muffin scum too. Or AA scum buddying muffin. Either way AA scum

Tere: is wasting time away still

Buldge: why are you holding back a vote and why is elb a scum read?

I feel my head going in circles with buldge post.

And my scum read one elb will stay and probably be my tunnel till dead.

Scum reads:
AA
elb

Highly questionable:
Muffin
BULDGE

No read and doing nothing:
Abr
Massive

[farside22]

Oh and tere is on my doing nothing list

[Sakura Hana]

I feel my head going in circles with buldge post.

Yeah that's how i felt about him in the other game i linked when we kept arguing semantics and i was pretty sure he was scum, in the end i was wrong, which is why i dont want to be distracted by a semantics war.

Grill gaiden to voting muffin.

I get better reads via interaction, after talking with Gaiden i felt a little better about his slot, and I haven't liked muffin's play this game so farm, but I know that if he's town he's most likely gonna be wrong on D1 anyway.

Scum reads:
AA
elb

Highly questionable:
Muffin
BULDGE

No read and doing nothing:
Abr
Massive

I agree on AA, Is the Elb read based entirely on meta?, also I was thinking ABR possible scum as well. (In fact my possible scumspects were muffin, AA, ABR, and a possible 4th that i still don't know who might be yet). What do you think of Grapes and Glass?