Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Oversoul]

hello all

[Oversoul]

Just two things because I was having a shitattack in our PT

What was the point of booning Vezok?
Why is UT getting away with so much scummy shit?

[Oversoul]

I wasn't able to fully read this game since like page 50, but what happened with Espeonage?

More people should meander over to the TTH wagon. Singer should also put her vote on TTH if she wants me to legitimately believe she dislikes TTH. But seriously, why the hell are you voting Shadoweh?

[Oversoul]

Shadoweh scum read is based on a few things:

1.

Her interactions with our slot:

From "agreeing" with Tammy in Post 391, to the tone of mentioning Zar in Post 486 (Empire touched on that a bit). The way she voted Bulb in Post 658 and then called our slot town when Empire replaced in seemed unnatural because if she was really switching her vote due to a town read on Empire, it should've come at the same time or before she bothered changing her vote.

2.

Stance on Boon not being outed:

Post 1173 and Post 1192. Not specifically a scum-tell, but noting because it feels like it's only optimal play for her, which could go either way.

3.

Connection to TTH:

Because we're scumreading both of them, this point really only makes a difference if either flip scum, but Post 1466 and Post 1653 look like she's specifically avoiding bussing. Her comments about not having a say about the first lynch but jumping onto the second one in Post 1653 is not coming from a town-mindset. I also already brought this up, but asking why there are no votes on my slot suggests that she wants votes to fall on us, which directly contradicts her aforementioned apathy with the first lynch. It really reads as trying to get people to focus on our suspicion rather than TTH's (who was the largest wagon at the time), supporting our scum read of both of them. (adding in that this mindset of not pushing any reads doesn't make sense coming from a team with GI and basically looks like coasting)

Was this post prompted by my post?

[Oversoul]

I don't think Mastin has ever read me as town when I am town. Huzzah. The stars have aligned.

[Oversoul]

Why are you scum reading DV, Mastin?
Titus, you have over 400 posts. Please take a breather for a little bit.

[Oversoul]

I'm about to head into a very busy part of my life right now, so I'm just going to announce V/LA until Saturday.

VLA until April 18

Won't be very active until then but I will be around and may post occasionally.
In the mean time, what is the case on Espeonage?

[Oversoul]

No one ever answered my question of why Espeonage is leading wagon
Also why was Vezok booned. That seemed not very good play and very odd coming from Fferylt from what I remember

[Oversoul]

Also why was Vezok booned. That seemed not very good play and very odd coming from Fferylt from what I remember

vezok was booned because he's obvtown and making ABSOLUTELY sure we didn't give the boon to scum was a very high priority.

By that logic, fferylt should have gotten the boon.

[Oversoul]

No one ever answered my question of why Espeonage is leading wagon
Also why was Vezok booned. That seemed not very good play and very odd coming from Fferylt from what I remember

going to vote me for it?

uh... no?
I just thought it was odd coming from you given your intelligence/team.
(indirectly calling it a bad move)

[Oversoul]

Gamma/ffery or whoever asked, I am starting from my own reads
I have finals today through next week which is why I am being very absent

I do think Singer is town and wonder why so many people think otherwise given Empire and Singer's posts.

Still haven't read Espeonage but feel less inclined to go there over my initial gut scum reads

[Oversoul]

Fferylt, now that Thor and Llmarble are dead could you have them give their opinions on this game? Specifically, CDB, UT, TellTale, and Mastin?

[Oversoul]

Fferylt, now that Thor and Llmarble are dead could you have them give their opinions on this game? Specifically, CDB, UT, TellTale, and Mastin?

Odd choices given that Thor probably has only some snarky comment in regards to me that boiled down means "I have nothing" and I don't think I've ever played with Llmarble so I'd be pretty dang surprised if he gave some valuable insight on his first go-around.

Are you saying that only people who are familiar with your playstyle can analyze your posts?

Fferylt, why is it a weird place to have an existential crisis? I don't think people "plan" on having crises.
Also, get your teammates to comment on the people I singled out in this quoted post?

[Oversoul]

I kinda hate all 3 major wagons, but we get a second lynch today... hmmm decisions

[Oversoul]

You're speaking to my soul Llamarble.

What does he think about Mastin? Also literally the entire Gestalt team is gonna be dead after this day is over.
That's kinda sad.

I have been having conflict thoughts about Singer. I really though that slot was town but it is creeping into "desperate to stay alive" category.
Wagon compositions across all 3 lynch candidates tend to be the same in my mind.

[Oversoul]

I think Titus is town

[Oversoul]

* Concerned about Oversoul/Tammy because why would Tammy replace out over Esp but not Zar? And why is Oversoul trying to start out with completely fresh reads instead of taking into account Tammy's?

Going to nip this in the bud right here, but no.
I don't have time right now because of finals. But just stop while you're ahead, Westeros.

[Oversoul]

Singer, what is your read on Gamma?

[Oversoul]

Cab we get back to the espe wagon? It's the only wagon I kinda like right now and this game is fucking dragging. We need to do two lynches in 5 days and we don't even have wagons.

How about we compromise? You vote AD and we lynch him, then immediately after that we can lynch esp.

How about a flash aronis wagon?

Everyone wants this dead.

VOTE: aronis

Speak for yourself!

[Oversoul]

Only Gamma in particular. My take away from skimming your ISO with crtl F and "gamma" was a group scum read that you don't think is as strong anymore/personally have qualms about

[Oversoul]

I'll address your concerns tonight.

[Oversoul]

Like, no one on my team has actually called Gamma scum (except mildly from Mina but shhh), and the only reads list I actually provided put him definitively in the "don't know" pile which I then added a caveat to on my own saying that I only mildly agreed with the "don't know" because I had already very definitively stated I believed Gamma to be town, both at the beginning of my ISO and after our back and forth about his read on me.

I even skimmed my own ISO, to the best of my skimming abilities (gave it a good 30 seconds), just to see if anything stood out to me from your perspective (or what I imagine it would be), and came to that conclusion. Again, I can't figure out how exactly you got "team scum read that you might be disagreeing with at this point" and am totally baffled at what to do right now.

Please explain exactly how you came about this conclusion.

Sure. Part of how I like playing is to get specific reads from specific players, especially if I think that there could be some scum buddy interactions between those two players. As a way to try and get back into the game, I wanted a town read (you) help with reading someone who I can't really read at all (Gamma). I chose you specifically because I remember reading from when Tammy was in the game that Westeros had it out for Gamma. At the time when I read that, I thought the read was very odd since Gamma wasn't doing anything near as scummy as the weird was strong. Also, I felt that you could read Gamma the best since you're probably one of the only people who has had real life interaction with him.

I haphazardly skimmed your iso until I found this from Regfan

@Ffery...Regfan would like me to remind you to clarify your town read on Titus.

He would also like me to pass along his reads list...I'm not really sure how to do that without actually C/Ping it, so...

Let's just say that these reads more or less go in descending order of towniness:

Vezok ***
DV ***
Cheer ***
[Gap]
TSO ***
Tammy ***
[Gap]
Aronis
Bulb
GIF *
Marquis *
Esp.

Titus *
Mastin
UT *
CDB ***
Gamma *

AD
[Gap]
TTH
Shadoweh ***

[Gap] = a significant difference between the strength of those reads
bolded = conflicted/null reads of no particular order
* = how strongly I personally agree with both the read and the placement of the read

I thought this list was saying that Reg at least thinks Gamma is scummy. Is this not saying Gamma is fairly scummy? Maybe I am misinterpreting this list but this looks to me that Reg was at least considering Gamma to be the fourth most scummy person in the game at this time.

I think Crtl F'd the word Gamma in your iso and came up with several hits. The first of which was this gem...

With regards to Gamma...you're gunna have to be more specific at this point. Vezok was relevant with regards to the game state and information I'm working with, and as far as I can tell...Gamma sure is...a player...

You replied to Bulba asking about your read on Vezok and Gamma with this very non-committal answer about Gamma. I will admit this is probably why I said it was wishy washy, which isn't fair since it is only one instance. I just found it odd given Empire's 672 and how strong that read seemed to be when I first read it. In your defense, I should not have been as shortsighted and probably examined Empire's posts more to see that your team was diminishing that Gamma scum read.

I don't like that because I really don't think Gamma's scum despite not having a good reason to vote me.

@Titus...there's a difference between discrediting you and discrediting your argument which was wrong and hypocritical. I'm not sure why you've continued to overlook that. My predecessors don't really need to agree with my positions, nor I theirs and it's really weird that you're even calling on that as an issue. The only one you can even compare it to is Zar since he's still playing TM, but I won't/don't sheep my teammates unconditionally unless I have no choice.

Re: provoking me...can I make it easier for you to understand me? I'm not really sure how my communication has failed since I've been voted.

@GiF...that Gamma vote sucks only because you're using "proxy" as an excuse.

This is currently the 12th? or 11th? mention of Gamma in your iso and it is the only where you come close to having a read on him. Then you start to just get into a conversation with him that sounds like you're town reading him but you never explicitly state it.

Spoiler: quotes yo

no, i understand the answer, I just want you to say, without commenting on meta simultaneously, whether you think I am scum or town.

Right now, my only agenda is to discredit your argument, not to get you lynched. Unless your lynch is emimant, this is only my backhanded support for it (hey this means you moved from a town read to a neutrally scummy read!).

Question: why do you seem to need me to commit to a binary read on you?

okay. i know you given me a very good idea of the answer, but I want a very specific "town" or "scum" answer without it being hidden behind wording like 'could be scum' or 'neutrally scummy' or 'scummier'. Changing your mind on my alignment later will not cause the earth to collapse into a black hole.

if you had to bet the ENTIRE GAME on my flip, right now, what would it be.

you'll see once you answer the question.

Town.

This is the time that you give the hard read on him. I'm sorry for having missed this. The Crtl F skim didn't pick this up because well... Yeah, no mention of Gamma in these posts.

So yeah, that's that

[Oversoul]

I actually do want to talk to you about more pressure you, but I'm playing league right now. Will yo ube around for a little longer?

[Oversoul]

@Singer

[Oversoul]

@Oversoul...can you clarify Tammy's mistake with her actions one more time?

1. What is this referring to? I can't find anything in my ISO where I said mistake?

* Concerned about Oversoul/Tammy because why would Tammy replace out over Esp but not Zar? And why is Oversoul trying to start out with completely fresh reads instead of taking into account Tammy's?

2. What? Why are you concerned about Tammy and I switching? Indulge me for a bit, because it is about to get super self-metay.
Tammy and Oversoul both hate playing scum.
Tammy and Oversoul both spent tokens trying to get town.
Tammy and Oversoul both like playing town.
They like playing town because there is less stress and more freedom.
Tammy and Oversoul would *never* willingly jump into a slot that they *know* is scum.
It was almost a trust tell back when I still played a lot that I would never take a role I knew was scum.

But those aren't the only reasons why this concern is poor form coming from your team, Singer.
Why would Tammy chose to replace out against Espeonage *rather* than Zar? Someone who actually knows her scum game? And someone who has played extensively with Tammy? That makes no sense. Tammy replaced out because Tammy felt that Espeonage had a weird fixation on her, to the point that he would comment on almost every single post that Tammy made. Tammy didn't want to derail the game with that nonsense, so she asked if she could switch. I agreed because I was the most caught up with this game (lol still 60 pages behind) and I thought it would be fun.



So far the fun aspect has yet to show.
Your entire team should *know* how Tammy operates seeing as how often they play with her.

Just look at the situation from Tammy's perspective
- Zar is a scum read
- Zar is not hounding Tammy every post
- Zar is not purposefully misinterpreting posts trying to goad Tammy into a fight
- Tammy was mad at Empire for comments he made, yet still didn't feel personal. Your question/concern is skeevy, but I'm willing to chalk it up to paranoia that always rears its ugly head.

ALL of these things are opposites with Espeonage.

Tammy also says that you should not compare your scum game to Tammy's scum game since she feels that you two play very differently. She says she wouldn't be "worried" about fucking up and that Mina/Zar/Regfan should know that.

And last but not least, why the hell would Tammy switch out of a game where she almost universally town read?

Should send you all to Qyburn to realign your scumdars.

[Oversoul]

Do we have to get two lynches through in those 4 days before deadline?

[Oversoul]

Shadoweh's on her vanity wagon, just let her run with it.

Also, I'm on my phone so I can't quote very well...but! My team DOES know Tammy's town meta, and DID have a strong town read of her. The only moments of doubt was your replacing in, which is why we wanted you to clarify those points. I understand you getting defensive, but it seems like you think I've been unclear in my assertions, which were only that the circumstances were a little fuzzy and wanted you to endulge us a little to ease our minds.

At this point, you've explained the second point to my satisfaction since we're obviously biased we didn't know what to read into it. The first...it wasn't in your ISO, it was in Tammy's. I'll have to find it when I'm not on my phone.

Was there anything specific you needed me to answer because a lot of that post was a defense/assertion that we should know better, so I'm not sure where the questions/pressure lies...

Nah, I just said pressure to entice you to stay. I'm a little manipulative like that.

My team and I think you are town. I thought you were town even when Tammy wanted Zar's blood.

Can I get your opinion on Tso oversoul?

I was actually just about to place a vote down on TSO just to get this day over sooner rather than later, but I read through his ISO and I cannot in good faith place that vote. I don't find his play to be all that scummy. I don't see TSO placing fast and free like he did in the beginning of the game or like he did with the self-Boon talk. His reads seem to be developing organically and his posts all read to me as off the cuff without any ulterior motive/plan to fall back on. I think TSO is gonna flip town.

UT, what are your scum reads?

[Oversoul]

UT has been friendly but I need more. He's my weakest read though bc this doesn't really match Uncouth mafia.

uncouth is a terrible example of my scum game

Oh please

I play the same way every game

Which is it? An accurate example of your play in general? Or not?
While we're at it. Who are you scum reading?
What is the difference between your town play and your scum play if you are so aware of what is a "bad" example of your scum game? (which is also by your own admission your town game)

VOTE: UT

Mastin is also a good vote.

[Oversoul]

Defaulting to my initial gut scum reads which were surprisingly similar to Westeros's reads (minus Gamma).

The votes on Vezok make very little sense. The TSO lynch made very little sense. I wish rains of castamere upon that wagon.

[Oversoul]

I am a walking deadwoman.
I am town.
I will be dieing, and save for Tales level of incompetency, not by lynch.
This deathdate is going to be sooner rather than later.
Suspicion on me, therefore, just passes entirely over my head. I don't have reason to care. They'll be proven wrong without me needing to lift a finger.

Role related or ego related that you are have a deathdate?
This is actually very important.

[Oversoul]

Role related or ego related that you are have a deathdate?
This is actually very important.

Sure is important!

But tell me.

In

what

universe would it

ever

be a good idea to answer this question?

1. It is role related and people will still marginalize you
2. It is ego related and people will still marginalize you

So, I guess, those universes?

[Oversoul]

What is your opinion on TTH scum reading you, Mastin?

[Oversoul]

What is your opinion on TTH scum reading you, Mastin?

It means nothing. I'm both a bit surprised and disappointed that not only Anti but also ETL share that stance apparently, but it's irrelevant. TTH is town, period.

^

Why do you think they are scum reading you?

[Oversoul]

To made them fade you'll have to convince people to leave them.

Even myself. I will in the meantime look at Tso.

Breifly reading Oversouls iso, a gut acum read on espe turns into a hated wagon. Why?

Just saw this, what did you get from reading my ISO Dan? Why is the progression from gut scum to dislike necessarily bad?

[Oversoul]

VOTE: Aronis

There is an enormous pile of people I would murder at this point though, especially if pointed at by ffery

Is Fferylt your keeper now?

[Oversoul]

Before another lynch is achieved, I am requesting that people give me

24 hours from this post

before a lynch occurs.

Hammer will be met with extreme prejudice.

[Oversoul]

UT having me, Mastin, Titus, and Singer as scum reads is fine and dandy, but two of those people have viable wagons and you *still* arent voting. You're not thinking like a townie trying to actively suss out scum. And that is scummy as fuck.

More votes on the UT wagon please.

Why are you thinking I could be scum? Because I'm pushing you?

[Oversoul]

OH MY FUCKING GOD I HATE LAPTOP TRACK PADS

[Oversoul]

I was constructing a longer post, but this will just have to do because I am out of time right now.

We are NOT going to waste our second lynch on another person like TSO. This means that Aronis is off the table for lynch today.

The only people that we should be discussing for lynch are ActionDan, Espeonage, Singersigner, Titus, and Untrod Tripod.

This means that all vanity votes on individuals other than the ones listed above should be consolidated onto those lynch candidates. AD, Espeonage, and Singer all had substantial wagons on them during the course of the day. The way the TSO wagon formed makes me think that one of these people is scum given the quickness and ease compared to the resistance on these main three. Titus is on the list because she is currently the largest wagon and I think there is a healthy amount of discussion right now concerning her alignment. I personally have a town read on Titus, but I think her posts are approaching levels of negative utility. Plus, Titus has a certain quality of inscrutability that makes me feel that I can never accurately read her. UT is on this list because of selfish reasons. But seriously, UT is scum and everyone should be voting him.

---

bro I think I've more than proven that I'm willing to throw my vote around

your reasoning is bad and you should feel bad

whatevs though, time is short and etc.

vote singer

That is not what my post said. Did you ignore parts of my post? I do not understand how you came to this conclusion given what I actually said in the post. My scum read on you is not because at the time you were not voting. It is your passive, reactive play. You are not actively scumhunting or earnestly trying to figure out the game. When I called you out, you had scum reads on both Singer and Espeonage who had viable wagons, yet you were not voting either of them. You were not actually trying to get them lynched, you were talking and making reads for the sake of talking and having reads. There is a difference.

This post is a perfect example of your passive and reactive play. You did not actually vote a wagon on your scum read until I called you out.

Also, I think you are contradicting yourself.

Which is it? An accurate example of your play in general? Or not?
While we're at it. Who are you scum reading?
What is the difference between your town play and your scum play if you are so aware of what is a "bad" example of your scum game? (which is also by your own admission your town game)

a post-restriction game where I replaced into essentially a doomed scumslot late in the game is going to be pretty different from one where I actually got to shape the slot the way I ordinarily would?

is that not patently obvious to you?

You are saying "Uncouth is a bad example of my scumplay" and "I play every game the same way". This is contradictory. By your own admission, you play every game the same way, regardless of alignment. ANY example of ANY of your play would then reflect on play. Sure, you could say that this is null, but what you are saying right now appears to me that there IS a difference between 1) your scum play, or else why try to fight on this point and 2) your play across alignments, again, why else would you try to fight this point.

More votes on UT, please.

---

Gamma/ffery or whoever asked, I am starting from my own reads
I have finals today through next week which is why I am being very absent

I do think Singer is town and wonder why so many people think otherwise given Empire and Singer's posts.

Still haven't read Espeonage but feel less inclined to go there over my initial gut scum reads

ActionDan, is this the comment you're referring to? This is the comment that you are asking "Why"?

I didn't answer your why question because I don't think I ever said I had a gut scum read on Espeonage, or at least I can't remember it now and I can't find it in my ISO either. What I am trying to communicate with that bolded comment is that I don't have a read on Espeonage and I would rather go with a wagon where I at least have some basis for a read (my initial gut scum reads). Espeonage has lived comfortably in null land in my perspective of this game. He is a blind spot that I still have not been able to properly address.

I asked in general (from a theoretical perspective) if the move from gut scum read to disliking the wagon would *necessarily* be bad a thing because I don't think I actually did what you think I did in that post. Clearly something about that transition is causing you concern - what is it?

---

I'm working on a bigger post analyzing the components of the TSO wagon, but it is going to take a substantial amount of work and I probably should have allotted myself more than 24 hours to complete it because I don't actually think I am going to be able to finish it in time.

[Oversoul]

@Oversoul, how am I approaching negative utlity?

The sheer quantity of your posts is enough to drown town driven thought. It creates confusion and a smokescreen that the scum are better able to hide in. I don't mean to be offensive, but the content quality of your posts is not enough to offset the benefits given to scum.

pedit:

People went after TSO because he was an easy lynch. He was not really connected with the game and that made him vulnerable and an easy target. Plus, I think he was in the out-group. No one wants to lynch their friends on the first day. It is a subconcious action that seems to generally hold true, at least across the games I have played/observed. I don't think TSO had many friends in this game.

Aronis is in a similar position. I think Aronis is also in the out-group. I think Aronis is also disconnected from the game and that makes him a vulnerable/easy target. The information gained based on Aronis's interactions is negligible, just like the information gained from TSO's interactions was negligible. They both did not have connections because they were disconnected from the game. I think both TSO and Aronis are students and a lot of people seem to be forgetting that right now is finals season for American education.

Fferylt also endorsed the TSO wagon with a lot of force, so Fferylt supporting this wagon is not exactly the biggest vote of confidence. I actually really disagree with Fferylt on a lot of her reads/positions this game. I also think that she is doing a poor job of leading this town. I fear we are headed into a dark tunnel with no escape as long as Fferylt is at the helm. I think this is a function of the fact that Fferylt is an IC right now, which tends to skew perceptions of not only the IC itself, but also the other people in the game. No one really is trying to critically discuss the game with Fferylt so when shitty ideas like the TSO wagon are proposed no one is around to say "No, that is actually a shitty idea".

I actually find it disconcerting that we do not have much more interaction from Fferylt's teammates about this game given the fact that they are ALL DEAD. I would expect they would want to funnel all of their thoughts into the game through her given her confirmed town status. But that is a topic for another time. I know I have been neglecting my own teammates' games.

[Oversoul]

I'll address you later, UT

[Oversoul]

Uh, what, fferyllt?

[Oversoul]

oh ffs.

never mind.

GAMMA I think UT would be a better vote than CDB.

Agreed 100%.

And don't sweat it, Fferyllt. Happens to everyone.

You are saying "Uncouth is a bad example of my scumplay" and "I play every game the same way". This is contradictory. By your own admission, you play every game the same way, regardless of alignment. ANY example of ANY of your play would then reflect on play. Sure, you could say that this is null, but what you are saying right now appears to me that there IS a difference between 1) your scum play, or else why try to fight on this point and 2) your play across alignments, again, why else would you try to fight this point.

it can still be shitty when you replace into a more-or-less confirmed scum slot late in the game. it cuts of a lot of your options. yeah my tone and approach are pretty much the same, but if you want to know how I would approach something you should pick a game where I am more able to manipulate the gamestate to my faction's advantage. take a look at MS Fantasy Camp 2 if you're into the whole meta thing (which it kind of seems like you are). I'm saying if you want to do some kind of tonal analysis or whatever it gives you a *really* narrow view of my approach as scum because my course was more or less set before I replaced in

I must not be properly explaining why I view this as a contradiction. I'm not interested in your meta, UT. I am interested in you saying X, then saying Y, (which have two completely different conclusions on the same subject) and trying to assert that both opposite conclusions are true.

That said, the contradiction aspect of my post was only one part of it. I completely disproved your defense about moving your vote, and yet you don't address that?

also calling for votes on someone else when you've stated that you want to look at a 1-in-3 group of people of different is pretty ineffective planning and just looks like you're trying to say things you think people want to hear and give yourself license to plop down a vote on one of the big wagons and make it look like some kind of principled stance

and no it's not the list of players, it's that you're putting on airs about it and trying to paint yourself as some kind of leader

you're not

you're just someone saying what literally everyone wants to hear. you've expressed an interest in voting for at least one of everyone's scumreads.

I'm not impressed

1. I am trying to consolidate votes so that a lynch can be properly achieved.
2. I am simultaneously trying to consolidate information about the popular wagons that people

still

have grumblings about (AD, Esp, Singer).

I've already stated that I think Singer is town and I think have made it abundantly clear that I want your lynch above all else UT. It is a principled stance. There is a massive amount of malaise in this game and so many people are trying to do their own thing, all unsuccessfully. Sure, some are trying to form a townbloc but they are doing it with the wrong players and for the wrong reasons.

There are too many low impact players in this game and the few high impact players are not doing what they should be doing in cultivating discussion or useful wagons. I'm trying to bring life back into this game because clearly, judging by the TSO wagon, everyone just wants to be rid of this day.

UT, tell me where I expressed an interest in voting "for at least one of everyone's scumreads". Me telling everyone that these specific people should be the ones voted is not saying I think these people are scum. It is trying to get shit done in the face of people like you who just want complain about the length of the day and vote anything that comes close to lynch.

We are NOT going to waste our second lynch on another person like TSO. This means that Aronis is off the table for lynch today.
The only people that we should be discussing for lynch are ActionDan, Espeonage, Singersigner, Titus, and Untrod Tripod.

"We're only lynching between these people because

I'm

scumreading them."
Titus, and now you?

Excuse me, this goes out to everyone in this game: Who the fuck do you people think you are?

I think pretty much everyone is in need of some form of ego check here.

Again, that isn't what I am saying. I'm not scumreading all of those people. I literally called Singer town in one of my previous posts. Wagon analysis in the context of who votes for who, when, and against what sort competing counter wagons is one of the most useful pieces of information in Mafia.

And to answer your question, I am the hero this town needs.
What is your opinion of UT?

Yes that was the post. I didn't catch the "s" in "reads" I guess since I interpreted that as distancing yourself from a gut scum read on him. If that wasn't the case then I would be concerned because changing reads on a player without explanation is convenient for scum since usually it's not questioned. That said, I still am not sure why you'd hate a wagon on a null player. Most people would feel "whatever" about it.

I hated Espeonage's wagon because of who was on it, not because it was on Espeonage specifically. If it had been Singer with those same people voting I would have hated it just the same. At the time of that post, both UT and CDB were on the wagon and they were my first two main scumreads in this game.

So yeah I don't care if I'm annoying Oversoul by posting. I'm going to try to make this a quality post to explain to you why Mastina is obvious town from my perspective.

More posts like 3474! That was awesome and it is the only thing I'm looking for really.

[Oversoul]

given the quickness and ease compared to the resistance on these main three.

This isn't true for my wagon. I am absolutely sure I was realistically 1-off from a lynch before I started posting

Fair. This gives me an idea though...

[Oversoul]

Yes.

I didn't hate them for all the same reasons. Give me a little more credit than that.

[Oversoul]

I'm trying to get in good by shitting on their play? Ok.
I only want UT's lynch, Dan. When you put it that way, yeah it does look shitty and illogical.
i think I should clarify that I am only limiting the options because we are so close to deadline and this day has largely been inefficient. If a lynch does land on one of those five, at least that restores some efficiency to the game. Yes UT death makes the game less efficient but I think he is scum and don't want another "let's settle and vote some random dude" lynch. The list also forestalls that type of activity so in general I think it is pro-town to do at a time like this

[Oversoul]

1. you didn't disprove jack shit
2. I don't have to do anything you say
3. I answered the part that was wrong on an objective basis rather than just a misunderstanding of basic motivations and behaviors basis, since it seemed important to get that part cleared up for the rest of the audience

1. Yes. Yes, I did.

UT having me, Mastin, Titus, and Singer as scum reads is fine and dandy, but two of those people have viable wagons and you *still* arent voting. You're not thinking like a townie trying to actively suss out scum. And that is scummy as fuck.

More votes on the UT wagon please.

Why are you thinking I could be scum? Because I'm pushing you?

bro I think I've more than proven that I'm willing to throw my vote around

your reasoning is bad and you should feel bad

whatevs though, time is short and etc.

vote singer

That is not what my post said. Did you ignore parts of my post? I do not understand how you came to this conclusion given what I actually said in the post. My scum read on you is not because at the time you were not voting. It is your passive, reactive play. You are not actively scumhunting or earnestly trying to figure out the game. When I called you out, you had scum reads on both Singer and Espeonage who had viable wagons, yet you were not voting either of them. You were not actually trying to get them lynched, you were talking and making reads for the sake of talking and having reads. There is a difference.

This post is a perfect example of your passive and reactive play. You did not actually vote a wagon on your scum read until I called you out.

Read these three quotes and tell me that I didn't disprove what you were saying.

Your response to my suspicion on you was "Yes, I have been moving my vote around your point is wrong". I replied saying to you that your vote and your scum reads did not match up at all at a point in the game when they SHOULD have. You were complaining about this day dragging on so you voted TSO to end the day quicker. You have scumreads on not ONE but TWO viable wagons at a point that is now CLOSER TO DEADLINE and you still are not even voting LET ALONE the fact that you had scum reads.

2. Sure you don't. But that isn't what a townie thinks. A townie who wants to accomplish something and work with other towns people would at least be trying to engage me in discussion. You're just telling me wrong I am wrong, not going into ANY depth at all to explain that opinion.

3. I'm not following. What does this mean?

this is shitty and illogical and I am willing to admit that, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it anyway when we have actual options that aren't just a vanity wagon for me THAT I AM WILLING TO LYNCH is vote for a vanity wagon

I've explained this numerous times. I THINK YOU'RE SCUM. I think that of *all* the lynch candidates today that *you* are more scummy than any of them. I am going to fight for your lynch.
I gave everyone else parameters for a lynch because I knew it was going to be an uphill battle to get you lynched but I specifically DID NOT WANT a lynch on a person who was not already discussed today. I admitted you are an exception to the rule but the only reason is because *I* think you're scum. Yes, that is selfish and egotistical but no one else in this game has really given me any indication that they ACTUALLY CARE about who gets lynched today. Given that, I am MORE THAN OKAY to push people around/bruise some people to get you lynched or at least prevent another lurker lynch.

My parameters have LITERALLY NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU AS A SCUM READ OR MY BASIS FOR SCUM READING YOU. Yet here you are. Choosing to try and discredit me rather than talk about things.

I'm trying to get in good by shitting on their play? Ok.
I only want UT's lynch, Dan. When you put it that way, yeah it does look shitty and illogical.
i think I should clarify that I am only limiting the options because we are so close to deadline and this day has largely been inefficient. If a lynch does land on one of those five, at least that restores some efficiency to the game. Yes UT death makes the game less efficient but I think he is scum and don't want another "let's settle and vote some random dude" lynch. The list also forestalls that type of activity so in general I think it is pro-town to do at a time like this

I think a good thing to do would be at least take a look at Espe. (And also, like an opinion on me for completion)

Ok. I'll look into Espeonage later today.
I think you're town although I'm not entirely sure how strong I feel about that. I disliked your early game when I was reading it, but I never fancied your style of play even when I was more active. It always felt scummy to me. I didn't like your Espeonage case because it seemed more like "pay attention to me! I'm doing town things" rather than you wanting to analyze Espeonage's play.

That said, I thought your Singer analysis was a step in the right direction and that your conversations with me are fairly town. I do think that this is a bit of a recency issue though (recency is also why I think some people voted for TSO despite him having a fairly strong early town game).

[Oversoul]

Your response to my suspicion on you was "Yes, I have been moving my vote around your point is wrong". I replied saying to you that your vote and your scum reads did not match up at all at a point in the game when they SHOULD have. You were complaining about this day dragging on so you voted TSO to end the day quicker. You have scumreads on not ONE but TWO viable wagons at a point that is now CLOSER TO DEADLINE and you still are not even voting LET ALONE the fact that you had scum reads.

Furthermore, UT, if you were truly uncaring about moving your vote around whichever way why were you ever not voting? Why did it take you 23 posts between your first post the day after TSO was lynched until you ACTUALLY placed your first vote for the second lynch on Singer?

That does not reconcile in my mind. If you say you don't care about where your vote is and that you move it around as much as you want (which you seem to be wanting to imply is townie?) why didn't you just vote anyone right out of the gate and move it around accordingly?

[Oversoul]

I hope for your sake that you're scum

because you should be embarrassed post-game if you aren't

Nope. Just stubborn.

[Oversoul]

Do your teammates have any opinions on this game by the way? You've said nothing on that front.

[Oversoul]

Ok. I am tired of all this babble about wanting Singer or Titus lynched. I'm ending this now.

First and foremost is the Empire switch into the slot. Empire hates scum. Empire's scum game is good to a point, but from what I remember it devolves into self-pity and lurking. The only scumgames I have seen where the massive Westeros game and another concurrent game. Both of the games featured Empire in a hydra. Both of those games featured Empire essentially leaving the game and just having his hydra partner post. There is absolutely no chance that Empire willingly switched into a scumslot, unless very unlikely extenuating circumstances*. I will only flesh out these circumstances once other games progress, but for now I will remain quiet about this caveat.

Now that we have that out of the way, let us look at the collection of posts from all three people who have been featured in that slot. Level of detail will be higher for Singer because I think people are seeing Singer's posts as naturally scummy.

Zar

I really dislike most of Zar's posts because they are just cheeky in general. The Tammy/Zar stuff I think started due to a dichotomy of seriousness between the two. Zar was not taking it as seriously as Tammy was and so he looks more defense because of that. I also don't like how he was, as he admitted, a telephone boy with his team and this game. That said, I do like Zar's ending, specifically his 318 and his 412. He displays self reflection in both of those posts that has a conciliatory, yet defeated tone that is unlikely to come from scum. I think Zar at this point would have dug in and remained indignant about everything.

Empire

Contrary to Zar, I LOVED Empire's early posts, especially post 672. His reads more or less aligned with what I was feeling as an observer looking over Tammy's soldier.

Not only do I know Empire has a penchant for hating scum, I know that Empire spent tokens on town in his game and also at the time of this game felt very distressed. In my mind, there is a less than 1% chance that Empire switched into a scum role. That chance is only if he also drew scum in the other game.

That said, I did not see the harsh Gamma scum read coming from him. I did not think Gamma was super scummy, but then again, I can't really read Gamma. I also find it a little weird that Zar never forwarded these reads into the game as it appeared Empire had spent a large amount of time developing those reads?

Uh, have you spoken to your team about me (#754 implies that you have)? Because I find it very hard to believe that a guy who (probably still) believes I have no scum game suspects me in this game.

I also really liked this response by Empire to CDB. It feels so town and "WTF how is he concluding that?"

In addition, Empire was willing to talk things out with Tammy and his scum reads, which I don't think a scum member who wants to display gusto would be doing.

That said, I did not like that he focused on relaying so much of his teammates' opinions, especially after Zar was complaining about having to do that himself. I also did not like his TTH vote because that it looked jejune and opportunistic.

Singer

I like that she addresses the TTH stuff early in her time in this game, but she actually never gives us what her team thought with that vote. I like the fact that she also sees Vezok as town for much the same reason that I see Vezok as town.

She quickly becomes familiar with the game despite not being in that team at all and she also quickly develops reads that seem independent of what was commonly felt by the town (at the time she made her reads).

I like her Shadoweh suspicions too because I had thoughts along the lines of "What is Shadoweh actually pushing for?". I think of Shadoweh as a big/high impact player. Her presence in this game has generally been weak thus far.

Her tone and approach the game is more let us work together and less like that she is being forced to provide/fake content. Specifically, post 1841 abundantly has this feeling.

That said, I did not like her treatment of Tammy when Tammy admitted to not reading the rules/roles in the first post of the game. It felt patronizing and more theoretical than anything at all, which is out of place for Singer.

Um...

@UT...when you said you forgot that Ffery was confirmed town, does that strike you as something one alignment would do over the other, or just a generic mistake? I'm going to explain my thoughts on that lest someone mistakes that for a trick question...

As town, my priorities are finding scum; however, in the absence of an ability to do so, town hunting could be considered equally important. In this particular instance, with the locked thread, the public mistake, the missed hours of game time...all kind of flashing red lights to what's going on, don't you think? Because of this, I have a

seriously

hard time believing it was just an oversight.

So let me explain why I think this is more likely to come from scum...

AS SCUM, you're trying to trick the town, or throw shit around, or blend in, or make enough noise that people get distracted, or whatever scum-playing tactic one might have, right? It's my theory that a scumUT was more concentrated on trying to pressure/find little indescrepencies with one of the most recent posts (probably didn't matter who the poster was) that could potentially thrust someone else into negative limelight.

His priority didn't read as "is this person scum" it reads "is this person scummy."

Preview Edit:
lol, it's k, yeah that was directed at Aronis, and should've said "so was" not "so what" but I digress...

These opinions about UT and Fferylt were almost identical to my own when I saw UT do that. I was clamoring for UT blood in the PT but Tammy didn't think he was scummy so she didn't follow through. UT forgetting about Fferyllt's status was the first indicator to me that he was not actually reading this game and was merely trying to phone in, like I would expect scum to do. That said, it says something that Singer is willing to bring this up after some time has passed with the initial incident. That shows she is digging into people to figure them out. This is not surface level of content, people. This is scumhunting.

I don't really like post 2041, but the general tone of it reads town to me. I don't know if she would want to antagonize someone in that manner unless she did not care about how much pressure was being applied to her. In general, a lack of concern about one's personal status (lynch candidacy, suspicion level) is a town tell.

Her discussions with Gamma also make me lean town for Singer because that was a substantial discussion that she had with him about his reasoning for suspecting her. She is working with people trying to help them understand her play while also coming to consensus. THAT IS TOWN PLAY.

The big posts about TTH and Shadoweh are nice and all but the seem really out of place/desperate. Plus, I would expect one about UT given her team's general feeling about him. That said, I agree 1000% with her first point against TTH. It only makes sense that TTH did that unless there is a caveat on her role, like there is on the nightkill, that she needs the sign of the player in order for her action to be successful.

I wasn't calling your meta post cheeky (nor did I even imply I was), I was calling our conversation cheeky. I didn't trust your line of questioning because I wasn't sure if it came from a town mindset or scum mindset and thought you were trying to set me up. I brought up people who knew my town meta because you had failed to convince me you weren't taking that into account when you brought it up in the first place.

Re biting sarcasm...once again, you're right! I'm going to use everything I know how to discredit the people who are wrong about me and appeal to the people who are right. Again, I fail to see how you think that's alignment indicative, much less leaning scum.

I'm not getting lynched today, Gamma, and I'm really fucking annoyed you're still pressing this. Does it tell you anything that not even my bigger supporters of singerscum have acknowledged your concerns about me? I really don't have the energy to fight you anymore on this so if you want to keep pushing my lynch I'll let you keep failing.

That being said, gun to your head, who're my scum buddies?

I'm fairly ambivalent about this post. I think the first paragraph is townie. Singer is displaying appropriate levels of paranoia/suspicion in her actions, which is good because a townie does not know anything for certain. The second paragraph hits a sour note with me. I don't like the comment about discrediting people and it plays into the third paragraph where she tries to undermine Gamma's legitimacy by saying no one agrees with him. That looked like scum caught for the wrong reasons. Her fourth paragraph, asking about her buddies, has pro's and con's. It is beneficial for scum to ask that sort of question to alert scum buddies to adjust their play accordingly, but that is also the sort of thing a cocky person would say in this situation. I feel that Singer is fairly cocky in this moment so the comment is not out of place.

Hate her TSO vote, but she gets town points for the way she interacted with me. I don't see scum Singer going through the trouble of casting doubt on my slot given the general approval that I am town and then saying at the end of the suspicion I am town again. Seems like a futile/useless exercise, unless she wanted to appear like she was contemplating everything. Generally, I do not think scum plan that far ahead or are acutely aware of the moment to make that type of move.

Sure, I can see the reasons why people think Singer is scum but I think there is more reason to think she is town given her play. She has a natural cadence/posting style that just seems suspicious on face value, but her actions look fairly town to me.

pedit:

Damn.

That slew of posts makes me feel really conflicted about you, UT.

UGH JUST ADMIT YOU ARE FUCKING SCUM IF YOU ARE

UT, but your teammates are reading and giving opinions on other games they are not in? They are just flat out ignoring this game?

[Oversoul]

I agree that my expectations of your play might be too high, maybe even completely out of line given your personality. I have opinions of "this is how a reasonable townie would act/play" and it is partly based off how I play. That might be the issue.

You and I have such vastly different playstyles, that when I see you playing and not doing "reasonable townie" things my mind goes red alert. But damn though, your play has never felt like you had conviction or desire to even root out the scum.

[Oversoul]

Singer, whatever happened to your team's read on UT by the way?

[Oversoul]

Oh god I hated that game

[Oversoul]

UT I see your personality as hilarious/jokester. Generally means you are more laid back and easy going which is why I think I am having such a hard time reconciling your play because mafia is srs. 24/7

[Oversoul]

Well Iguess hi wasn't the right word
Different would have been more appropriate

[Oversoul]

UNVOTE: UT

fuck
I feel so defeated after that

[Oversoul]

Ok. I am back from a pretty rough sickness over the last few days.

[Oversoul]

I really dislike the strength of CDB's role.

Tracker + Rolecop?

[Oversoul]

Gut scum read CDB is about to get lynched?
I can't resist.

I read Espeonag'es iso before I got sick and the things that stuck out to me were 1) how often he changed his vote, specifically to leading wagons which did not feature heavily in his iso, 2) his Tammy interactions, 3) I do not buy his Detect story.

If he really was a VT, what is the point of detecting really? Trace seems to at least grant a partial roleblock or forestall potential scum power role use.

That said, the CDB wagon looks good.

[Oversoul]

Eh actually, CDB wagon is ok. Not good.
His near death posts ring town to me though.

Why did I have to get sick after UT push. Ugh

[Oversoul]

I really dislike the strength of CDB's role.

Tracker + Rolecop?

I did talk about your claim CDB.
I don't buy it.

I'm not entirely sure how Hito thought this game should be played out, but it seems like a lot of neutered power roles, yet yours seems to be fairly strong.

[Oversoul]

I really dislike the strength of CDB's role.

Tracker + Rolecop?

Yeah, but the chances of that actually coming together are not that high

1) I have to correctly match sign on my target
2) My target has to be using an active ability
3) They have to be submitting the same sign as I am (i.e. their own)

Wait, what? I don't understand point 3.

Point 1 is not that difficult if you are scum seeing as how there's 4 people who can all get a sign. Not mention you can all target one individual one major night and pretty much guarantee their death, so... not that far fetched.

[Oversoul]

Bleh, that post made no sense. You can all detect one person on a minor night (guessing all 3 signs) and then guarantee their death the major night.
I don't understand the interaction for point 3?

[Oversoul]

Stupid means she is scum, Singer?

[Oversoul]

VOTE: Gamma

[Oversoul]

That was very clear, CDB. Thank you

Reading through the TSO wagon, Gamma's vote was quite possibly the worst one. My takeaway from Gamma's play is to try and push as many people as possible to get as much power role information and understanding of who finds what scummy for later lynches.

[Oversoul]

Also, to put something in perspective...

TSO was lynched from his first vote to death in 11 hours. The fact that no one tried to prevent that wagon is astounding.

[Oversoul]

Oh wow we only have 8 hours left. I thought we still had a day and half to lynch someone. Hmm...

[Oversoul]

My vote mainly stems from the way you completely discounted your read own town read on TSO in favor of his lynch.
TSO was someone you were willing to boon early in the game and up until his wagon, you thought was town.

[Oversoul]

I don't get the paranoia about people claiming because of banes.
They only last one night.

[Oversoul]

Sorry I wasn't around at deadline yesterday. :/ my roommates parents came into town and we all went out to dinner and my phone died so I had no access to Internet.

[Oversoul]

I'm indecisive on who I want to bane and who I want to lynch

[Oversoul]

Why would we waste the bane on someone you are going to lynch TTH?

[Oversoul]

I think with this particular Bane if the town chooses Mastin it presumably would be okay with lynching her.

[Oversoul]

Um, sure CDB.
Why isn't it safe to assume that multiple scum have non-factional abilities?

[Oversoul]

This Bane feels like it'd at least be less of a waste to use it on someone we're actively intending to lynch immediately, but since we know from Viktor that scum have at least one player with a non-factional ability, it seems strictly more efficient to try to use them separately.

I agree with the logic of this post, but not necessarily the premise.

I think it would be a waste of the Bane to choose the same person to lynch. I think the bane should probably be something like this...

Everyone has multiple lynch choices.

Lynch choice 1 is the first lynch
Lynch choice 2 is the second lynch
Lynch choice 3 is the bane.

But then again, this assumes a lot of things. Mainly that the town will be able to come to a consensus on several different players.

This Bane feels like it'd at least be less of a waste to use it on someone we're actively intending to lynch immediately, but since we know from Viktor that scum have at least one player with a non-factional ability, it seems strictly more efficient to try to use them separately.

I'm not sure if roleblocking someone we don't really feel like lynching is helpful. I mean it's a roleblock. The chance of hitting scum is small and it's also low impact. The boon should be cooler.

I think roleblocking a scum is very useful. There might be some caveats with it, but it limits scum potential greatly during this night. Hopefully, 1/4 of the scum team tonight will not be able to submit a kill/any ability.

You bring up a point that I had speculated. I think Banes + Boons are going to get progressively stronger as the game goes on.

Hito, does the Bane prohibit factional abilities AND active abilities? If so, would a strongman passive allow either factional/active abilities to go through, despite the bane?

I'm not entirely sure I want to bane Mastin mainly because I want to lynch her.

Mastin

, why do you think Fferyllt and Nacho would be okay with a bane on Singer?

pedit: Singer read my mind!

[Oversoul]

How many different signs are there in this game? 3?

[Oversoul]

GiF thought his role meant doctor.

Where did he say anything like this, because I don't remember it?

He crumbed it to me. He said he was Lichtmann. That's our way of saying doctor. So I drew a shitton of attention to myself to try and protect GiF and let GiF lurk.

This literally seems like a trust tell and is very disconcerting coming from a Listmod.

Why would the choice make a difference of who to bane?

Because if we choose locked, then any VTs will likely be VTs forever. This makes Esp a safe bane, as if he's town, nothing happens, and if he's scum, he can't use night actions. If we choose to unlock, then a random VT becomes a PR, and that makes baning Esp a little more risky.

Why would TTH's confirmed towniness happen before the end of the Minor Day?

Because she'll either be confirmed by the mod or another player. Either way, it's most likely to happen before the end of the minor day. Unless you're planning on ending the day before everyone chimes in...

Noting this.

I think I like the idea of being quick with this minor day.

I greatly disagree with this. We have a lot of powerful tools at our disposal now and a better head collectively about this game. I do not think we should let this day drag on, but I think we should try to avoid rushing through things.

*twitch*
Yes. There are three.

Why the twitch?

Ok. I think we should probably be trying to neuter the scum heavily during Minor nights, seeing as that is how most active/factional abilities seem to rely on?

Scum with all its members alive can definitely discern the signs of two players each minor night, as long as none of them are traced.

I felt like he and CDB were copout wagons to Titus and AD. That's how I would answer if I had to make up an answer. Otherwise, I really didn't feel like it at the time and then I was trying to hold out to see if there was anyone else willing to vote (I was literally hiding from Gamma and Reck in the kitchen) and there apparently wasn't.

What does this even mean? This seems extremely anti-town to purposefully withhold your vote from going to a lynch.

TTH

, do you think the scum had the knowledge that you did about the Lock mechanic coming up to a vote?

CDB

, can members of your team run an analysis to see how many actual days we have left? I'm worried that once another day or so has passed this game is going to thin out very quickly and we may be at death's doorstep quicker than we think.

[Oversoul]

Just bane espeonage. No one seems to actually want to lynch him anyway for some reason

I want to lynch him.

[Oversoul]

There's a difference between minor day and major day.
I'm also just kind of feeling impatient. I really want a scumflip. During minor day there's not much of a way to tangibly work towards that.

Yes. I realize there is a difference.
I think looking forward, minor days are going to be very important. Now scum will be able to build up a reservoir of known signs for players so they can start popping off two players a night.

What is your read on Gamma?
Why do you think that Espeonage is town?

[Oversoul]

Espeonage's attitude towards self-Baning Today feels pretty VT. I'm not sure I'd lynch him any more, despite my anger that he didn't die Yesterday.

Why does it feel VT? It felt forced to me. A self-bane appeases the town and says "look at how sacrificial I am being" when in reality it hurts the town a lot. Espeonage's self-bane is more survivalistic than it is pro-town. If he was town he would accept his fate and try to put the bane on someone where it might actually negatively affect that person. The self-bane looks to be entirely for the theatrics of it.

It literally accomplishes nothing on a VT. Sure you could make the argument that it is arguably less efficient for us to try and bane a goon who only has a nightkill, but we don't even know if Espeonage is a goon so why take that chance?

No one had an issue with his claim or suspects he might be a scum nefariously doing other things with his role. I think this bane should be reserved for people that we think have powers in addition to the nightkill.

[Oversoul]

Kind of leaning townish on Gamma?
My read on Espeonage is kind of hard to explain atm. A combination of a gut feeling that the lynch would have been more likely to go through if he was scum that I can't really put into words and the fact that I'm still alive atm.

*twitch*

Don't make this harder than it has to be Cheetory.

Why are you leaning town on Gamma?
Why does your continued existence point towards Espeonage as town?

[Oversoul]

I'm fairly happy that GiF died. I had a mild scum suspicion on him given his play yesterday.
I know this is probably too little, too late. But you all will have to deal.

Also, ffery, would you endorse a flashwagon on TSO?

Yes! Yes we do! Very much so.

Mastin

, how involved is your team with your reads/this game? Why did you want TSO lynched?

Ffery and Mastina agree on TSO.

VOTE: TSO

Seriously, this should take off.

Titus

- What was your opinion about TSO? Other than sycophantic attitude?

The big wigs think it is a good idea! It must be!

vote TSO

wheeeeeeeeeee!

wheeeeeeeee!

Untrod Tripod/UT

, I take it you just wanted to *any* lynch to happen?

gonna do this since his popping in and mentioning regfan's reads while not trying to push AD's lynch or explain why he isn't putting stock into regfan's AD read does seem actually pretty bad.

VOTE: TSO

Gamma

, this was enough to remove the town feelings that you felt about his early game?

Oh wow, ok, I just wanted to check the votecount first but apparently there are still only like three votes on him?

vote: T S O

So,

Singer

, no actual reasons for wanting TSO dead?

vote tso

This wagon feels very strange, but I think scum as at the end of the tunnel.

Vezok

, what specifically about TSO did you think was scummy?

Point on TSO ignoring his teammate's read on AD while voting for him does look a little bad.
He should at least respond to that instead of flailing about how his wagon is bad and singer's vote is bad.
VOTE: TSO

Cheetory

- Why is that bad? When he brought it up?

VOTE: Tso

Fine.

ActionDan

, so what was the reasoning for this vote? The fact that he felt scummy recently?

TSO I think you should claim soon.

Mostly because I want your blood at this point and think you're actually a scum lynch that can finally happen but I still feel that I should give a warning that I will totally endorse anyone and everyone hammering you even without a claim given how bad I think a lot of people are at quickly processing claims (in relation to alignments) correctly and that you just don't really have any strong towntells that are going to be making anyone slow down on this.

This read materialized fairly quickly... in the 5 pages? that the TSO wagon existed. No, in the

11 HOURS

the wagon existed.

This is just another random lynch that won't give much info if it's town. :/ TSO was v/la for a week, it's not weird that he dropped off, and I thought he was active and townie when he was posting. However since this seems to be Dan vs TSO I would rather vote TSO. I do not condone this. >:| He had best claim, we were suposed to have lynched by now. Setting the deadline later was stupid, we'd already had Fake Day 1 and we should have known we have special procrastination powers. I wish I had considered that sooner. At least we're learning when this presumably happens again tomorrow.

What is even going on in this post? Does this mean you find AD townier than TSO?
What deadline are talking about here?

GIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIF!

VOTE: TSO

GiF

, was the primary reason for this vote just to lynch someone?

Had a townread on him earlier, have almost no understanding of why this wagon exists, feel bad for doing it so uninformed but jesus christ we need a flip so badly

VOTE: T S O

Fuck's sake, can't believe I forgot to even consider whether or not he had claimed. Chalking it up to having gone beyond desperation in how long it has taken us to get this far

CDB

, is that how you are supposed to play as town? You just lynch people because it is convenient?

VOTE: Aronis

There is an enormous pile of people I would murder at this point though, especially if pointed at by ffery

Is Fferylt your keeper now? Especially after her brilliant TSO flashwagon?

---

I have an enormous issue with how the TSO wagon formed. It was ill-fated, clearly a frustration lynch, and entirely premature. It was not even a deadline lynch, people. How none of you saw the warning signs to the growth of the lynch is beyond me.
Half of these votes on his bloody wagon on the surface are baseless. I did not think any of the main wagons up to the TSO wagon could be on scum given the general attitude of those being wagoned and the reasons for the wagon did not seem entirely strong. Now, I'm not so sure. I think scum saw the TSO wagon as an easy way out.

So that is where I will begin with my analysis.
I will now be going through the ISOs of everyone on this wagon to see how this TSO read developed (other than the ones who are dead like fferylt and GiF).

---

Hm. Fair point about Espeonage, Cheetory. That is making me reconsider him. I do have major issues with his self-bane.
Singer, why were you hiding from Reck and Gamma though?

Pedit:

The point about VT's agreeing to their own lynch is what I mean. Espeonage CLEARLY thinks that he is going to die today, hence the self-bane. What he should realize, as a towns person, that the bane is better used to try and prevent power roles from using their power, not for VTs in the off chance they are going to night kill.

Sure, he might not want to risk outting further power roles and that is why he has chosen to be the bane today, but a town power role should not be claiming today, even if they are baned. It is ONE night. I doubt whoever IS BANED is going to be a nightkill target because the baned person presumably has a healthy amount of suspicion on them.

I agree with you that we probably are putting ourselves at more risk to try and bane a power role, but I think at this point we need to take that risk.

[Oversoul]

oops, forgot to remove the GiF quote when formulating that

[Oversoul]

Btw, Oversoul, haven't heard from CES yet but Patrick doesn't understand why you've reached out to us with a question that's relatively easy to figure out no matter who you are. But anyway, here's what the two of us have worked out:

As things stand, on the information available to us, scum could kill a maximum of twice per Major Night and we can lynch twice per Major Day. With four scum alive, we would be in LyLo by Major Day Four if we lynch town at every opportunity and scum kill as many people as possible (and none of the dead are Alquin).

If Alquin were to be lynched Today or killed Tonight, we could lose as early as Major Night 3 if scum get everyone's signs right.

Two reasons

1. I'm lazy
2. CES + Patrick seemed to be fairly math-y people from what I remembered, so I figured it would be easiest for them to quickly do the analysis

[Oversoul]

I feel bad about flat-out forgetting to wait for a claim, but I'm not sorry about finally securing a flip. After that many pages, the thread needed one badly. At the very least, I needed one badly. I was starting to lose my mind at that point. I'm a strong believer in the theory that excessively long Days are bad for town, something which I think bore out in the way that everything went Yesterday.

Fair. I probably would not have opposed a lynch like that on players who were harder to read (like Titus or Mastin). I just felt that TSO was fairly town given his play prior to his own wagon.

What is your opinion about UT forgetting about Fferyllt's confirmed town status? He commented on it, two days pass, and then started scum reading her for not explaining herself.

---

Holy crap, though.

I think I have a townbloc forming in my head.

[Oversoul]

But it makes me feel like if he ever flips town, all of the scum would've already been at his wagon considering no one else moved their vote to ensure a lynch.

I dunno. I can see a few different scenarios playing out.

1. Scum want any town lynch that they can get, less people to kill, less people to fool, quicker to the endgame
2. Scum figured they could count on a Espeonage lynch later in the game, so they didn't vote for him
3. Espeonage is scum, scum obviously don't want to lynch their own

[Oversoul]

It looked kinda bad to me that TSO was like "everyone hop on board the ADtrain!" while his teammate was telling him that he thought AD was town. It looked off that he at least wouldn't at least address that inconsistency and instead chose to focus on complaining about how bad his wagon was.

Why is it necessarily scummy that TSO went against his teammates' opinions?

I was actively going against Tammy's opinion about UT when I had that major push against him earlier in this game. Does that make me scummy?

[Oversoul]

CDB, you're baning someone you think is town?

VOTE: Bane: Mastin

[Oversoul]

I mean, I guess that makes sense? In one breath you're wasting the bane, and the other you're trying to not waste the bane.

Compromise with me then? How about we agree to settle the first lynch of the day during this current phase so we don't waste the bane on someone we are going to lynch. I didn't realistically see Mastin being as someone who would get lynched today.

Also I will repeat. Unclaimed power roles shouldn't be a concern, they SHOULD NOT CLAIM IF BANED.

[Oversoul]

That's fair, actually, I hadn't thought about that. It would suck, but yeah. Better to suck it up.

Then would you please bane Mastin?

Also,

Singer, Gamma, Reck (via UT)

, could you all please explain the "kitchen scene" or whatever it was that Singer was talking about earlier?

[Oversoul]

Also, could the people who are voting their first choice for lynch please move their bane votes? Thanks.

[Oversoul]

Yeah that. I was mostly just talking to AGar in the kitchen and checking my phone to see if anyone (Esp) had been lynched/voted but I didn't want them to know that's what I was doing. >_>

But, like, I don't understand this specific thought process, Singer.
This looks sketchy as shit. Why would you care if they saw you checking unless you felt you had something to hide from them?

[Oversoul]

No duh. I just had to rant and scream at you all day to get people to listen to it.

She's confirmed town now, Mastin. Had nothing to do with you ranting or screaming about it.

[Oversoul]

You mean a role as hard to get off as CDBs? One that probably never work?

[Oversoul]

I don't know what to do.

Part of me says spite her, part of me says believe her. Then another part of me says spite her in a way she never saw coming.

[Oversoul]

bane

: UT

Shadoweh, goons should still he detecting so their nightkills + other power roles can function properly

[Oversoul]

Bane: UT

In case that first one doesn't count
I think this is a better name than Espeonage.

[Oversoul]

TTH is confirmed town because of Hito. Hito said exactly 1 town player and 1 scum player have abilities that can be unlocked. Our choice today was to unlock said abilities. TTH claimed to be one of those abilities. She was not counter claimed.

Espeonage, why did you Detect the first minor night?

[Oversoul]

Why does that make Titus a good bane

[Oversoul]

Fuck it.

Bane: Titus

[Oversoul]

Former, if you are scumreading UT, save your bane for someone else

It doesn't make sense to Bane and lynch the same person

[Oversoul]

Fuck it.

Bane: Titus

also why do you want to bane Titus of all people?

Why not?

You never answered my question about the TSO wagon, by the way.

@Everyone relevant

, look at 4291
I asked the TSO wagon questions that I would like answered

[Oversoul]

Oversoul, your questions have already been answered.

By everyone on the wagon?

Did I miss that?

UT, well, I would bane you UT but I just saw Fferyllt and Nacho agreed with a scumread on you so I am going back to old habits

[Oversoul]

I think that interaction solidified my CDB town read.

[Oversoul]

I'm just going to go with the wind now.

Bane: Mastin

Mastin would be playing anti-town if she outted her own role.

[Oversoul]

I'm stuck in a quagmire right now. I need people to die so I can get a better grasp of this game. I don't actually think Mastin will reveal her role.

[Oversoul]

Should bane Mastin before she gets a chance to bitch. CDB Espeonage move your banes!

[Oversoul]

You as in Oversoul or you as in UT?

[Oversoul]

[Oversoul]

Bane: ActionDan

[Oversoul]

I'll accept a bane on condition of lynching espeonage.

I am so down for that

[Oversoul]

I never bluff.

When I say I mean it.

Fuucking yes I mean it.

Even when you're scum?

I think a solid town bloc is TTH, Vezok, Cheetory, Singer, Mastin, myself

[Oversoul]

Cheetory and Vezok seem pretty town.

[Oversoul]

Bane: UT

Someone please hammer the bane

[Oversoul]

The gods have spoken

It is time for Espeonage to die

[Oversoul]

Hmm... This one is much harder...

[Oversoul]

Or Aronis didn't use an action.

[Oversoul]

This pretty much guarantees an action to go through tonight unless roleblocked.

[Oversoul]

Boon: CDB

I have a town read on him and a track would be very useful

[Oversoul]

This pretty much guarantees an action to go through tonight

unless roleblocked.

That's the catch.

Yes but with CDB it would be confirmed he was roleblocked. A lot more uncertainty exists with Mastin's action.

[Oversoul]

Or Aronis didn't use an action.

Or Aronis didn't use an action.

Then CDB should have gotten notice your target went nowhere as that is the site meta yet I believe CDB claimed no result.

That's how his role functions I believe

[Oversoul]

*deep breath*
Aronis could be scum or town who didn't make an action Major N1.
That is the alternative situation that CDB and I are referencing.

Then CDB gets a target went nowhere.

In a non-hito game this is true. But in Hito's games he leaves more room for error. He doesn't give trackers the explicit knowledge to know they were roleblocked with a no result response.

Hito groups no result if you get roleblocked with no result if the target goes nowhere

[Oversoul]

Are we all on the same page now? Should probably link Titus to that post Cheetory.

[Oversoul]

But 2 of my teammates are dead already and we need something to read

[Oversoul]

DV you're being a little ego centric. But TTH thinking you're a high priority kill makes sense for her detect if she is a watcher.

[Oversoul]

@Shadoweh,
I absolutely agree with your analysis regarding successful night actions. I want to boon Mastina because it keeps her alive most likely. Neither are likely to be useful but Mastina being alive serves us, so if we force scum's hand to block her, they have to keep probable town alive. Probable town with a possible/probable bulletproof. I don't think it matters because I've lost this argument, but I'll bet dollars to donuts because CDB is not getting a useful investigate.

At least this way we force scum's hand to concentrate their power roles in specific areas (CDB and Mastin).

Anyway, I'm tired of this. I just want to get to lynching people, so can we please just boon CDB? I doubt anyone will follow you onto Mastin, Titus, so might as well make your vote useful.

[Oversoul]

@Shadoweh,
I absolutely agree with your analysis regarding successful night actions. I want to boon Mastina because it keeps her alive most likely. Neither are likely to be useful but Mastina being alive serves us, so if we force scum's hand to block her, they have to keep probable town alive. Probable town with a possible/probable bulletproof. I don't think it matters because I've lost this argument, but I'll bet dollars to donuts because CDB is not getting a useful investigate.

At least this way we force scum's hand to concentrate their power roles in specific areas (CDB and Mastin).

Anyway, I'm tired of this. I just want to get to lynching people, so can we please just boon CDB? I doubt anyone will follow you onto Mastin, Titus, so might as well make your vote useful.

[Oversoul]

given how hard i pushed to get actual LYNCHES through yesterday as opposed to this junk that's a pretty silly assumption.

i'll be on-site in 8 hours or so, if tth or someone else wants to tell me why they think cdb getting booned would be likely to be useful then i'd prob be willing to do it.

Mastin is likely to be bulletproof independent of any sign interaction, given that scum have built in TWO KILLS.
There are a lot of unanswered questions about CDB's track on Aronis. We don't know if Aronis just went nowhere or if he was blocked. CDB using his ability with a guaranteed track will draw attention of scum power to either kill CDB, block CDB, and in general for scum to adapt a plan.

I appreciate the healthy amount of skepticism and suspicion surrounding CDB, but his play seems fairly town. If he was a scum tracker, or a scum power role of any sort, no one is going to waste a Detect on Aronis. They are going to want to kill people as quick as possible and Detect protown players.

Either way, we should go into Major Day 2 so we can actually accomplish something anyway. This is one night. It is not the end of the world.

[Oversoul]

I think that "scum didn't detect scummy players" is a very, very bad assumption given that they know that they can be traced by anyone who suspects them and need to have decent reasons for doing that unless they think they won't be detected at all or are Viktor and don't have to care.

Give me details about cdb being town for his actual play and not night action garbage and i'll probably hammer the boon on him after I get off work.

Sure, I agree in principle.
But ARONIS? What scum in their collective right minds would choose ARONIS to either kill or use a power on? He is a wet noodle player.

Just Crtl + F Aronis in CDB's iso and you can see the organic evolution of CDB's suspicion of Aronis. He was also playing a very good game as a power role by not making a big stink about Aronis or how much he suspects Aronis.

He makes sure to try and comment on everything of value since the last time he posted and his reaction to his own wagon looked very town. Especially the second time around when he was forced to claim.

[Oversoul]

Probably scum's doing, TTH
VOTE: Espeonage

[Oversoul]

What do you mean a minor night action Gamma? UT could still detect/trace

[Oversoul]

Claim what you did Espeonage

[Oversoul]

Oh

NOW YOU PEOPLE WANT UT

Assholes

[Oversoul]

Oh

NOW YOU PEOPLE WANT UT

Assholes

We can lynch Espy with the second lynch.

Mhm yeah Ffery totally didn't expressly ask for me to not be lynched today.

I have half a mind to treat any votes on me today as scumclaims considering how much everyone was following the leader yesterday.

If there was a trace on me I'd like to know since it may have foiled my trace and I'd like to know if Titus can still be in my lynch pool because I would love that.

Can we please get over Fferyllt's reads? Or if you don't, let's go down this path of reasoning Espeonage...

You say that you should not be lynched because of Fferyllt
You say that anyone voting you is a scum claim
I am voting you
I was strongly townread by Fferyllt

What is it then?

espy's approach to the game I think is very likely coming from a town mindset. I could be wrong, but his attacks and actions make a lot more sense coming from town than scum.

vezok is also basically the most obvious town in the game. rereading bulba and marquis is probably something that should happen though.

No, it doesn't.
It makes no sense at all why Espeonage, as a VT, would detect someone.
There is almost ZERO reason for that to happen. He chose Cheetory who he barely mentioned at all in his iso. And there was discussion of the actual detect mechanic and he still somehow "thought it would give him a positive effect".

[Oversoul]

I don't get the Titus hate.

Gamma did you ever answer my TSO question about the wagon?

[Oversoul]

VOTE: UT

[Oversoul]

Can we get a prod on Formerfish and Mastin, please?
Maybe even a replacement for Mastin?

[Oversoul]

I would like that explained too, Vezok.

I have a town read on your slot, but I don't really see a substantial case in your iso for why Bulba is scum.
I had a lot of issues with UT's play and now that everyone has seemingly come to their senses they want to lynch him? I should analyze the people who said no to the UT wagon earlier (yesterday) and compare it to the people on it now.

Townbloc:
Vezok
Gamma
Cheetory
TTH
CDB


Almost townbloc:
Singer
Titus

Everything else can die and I would be a very happy man.

[Oversoul]

His read on Bulba from his iso seems to be organically made in so far as the suspicion has mounted over the course of several days. Trace on TTH was pretty town too.

[Oversoul]

Tracing doesn't prevent Detecting. It blocks other traces. TTH was a highly scumread player at the time, so tracing her is town motivated.

I think his Bulba read stems from Bulba's interactions. Still not entirely sure. But the common strand of suspecting Bulba is clearly present in Vezok's posts.

[Oversoul]

TTH was a highly scumread player at the time, so tracing her is town motivated.

You mean after she become ~confirmed town?

That didn't happen but good try, AD.

[Oversoul]

Oh, AD meant the second trace.
I was referring to the first trace.

[Oversoul]

Shut the fuck up with this townbLoc nonsense

That shit is not useful or townmotivated

Was meant to show my strongest town reads. Didn't realize that was scummy. But do continue to not scumhunt and butch about other people's play.

Full steam ahead with the UT lynch.

[Oversoul]

UT who the hell do you suspect

[Oversoul]

Someone should neighborize me

[Oversoul]

Ok. Mastin can be town too.

[Oversoul]

Oversoul I think you're confusing innattentiveness and tbf a general lack of care and thoroughness for actual scum motivation.

List out the assumptions you're making for Espeonage deciding to claim that, in that particular way, as scum.

-He's aware that people might think him detecting Cheet might look scummy (he says this in one of his posts)
-If he's scum, he chose to do that action for a particular reason. There are a rare few instances but going into a game and deciding "I'm going to do something that doesn't benefit OR harm me at all and then claim that as a gambit" isn't something that is ordinary for damn good reason.
-So why do it then- do you think that he thought he would be townread by claiming it? I don't see why, especially when he's saying that he knows other people could see it as scummy
-Do you think he claimed it to cover up an action that benefits scum? If he's worried enough to claim it in case people traced him, why do that action instead of trying to get traced visiting someone that looks scummy, and possibly influencing their read that way? What motivation would scum have to detect someone, then immediately claim that detect, making it look much worse for Esp-scum if Cheet dies soon, especially when Esp's already claimed VT and can't visit Cheet himself without worrying about being caught scum?

Like there are a few kind of outlandish ways that would make it possible for scum to benefit from it and make it worth it for Esp to claim it, but actually thinking that they're the most likely possibilities seems pretty wrong to me.

And I think we've all had games where we lunged after a lynch because someone was just too bad and was making too many poor decisions to be town and then had be wrong. It's a reasonable suspicion but I don't think he's trying to get away with anything here, I think he just made some stupid assumptions on how the detects would work and ran with it, and I still think his suspicions on Tammy and Titus were coming from town.

I'm trusting you on this, Gamma

ActionDan and Mastin, we will get to your options after we deal with UT, ok?

[Oversoul]

Again, this is borderline cheating.
Cryptography, trust tells - whatever IT is, stop it. You don't need to get mod killed Titus.

[Oversoul]

Shadoweh lurking is disconcerting too.

[Oversoul]

Singer read this game

Dr. Who

I had much the same issues with Titus in that game that you appear to be having in this game.
I have no other way of telling you, but this is literally how she plays.

She reads things in a completely different light from normal MS players. She is like a dog with a bone too. She won't give up on things easy even if you prove that she is wrong.
I admit that I have been mostly ignoring your posts and Titus's posts because your interaction with her reminds me of that game so much. Plus, I think if you guys took a breather from one another we could *actually* accomplish something in this game like lynching UT.

I'll take a look at 4662-4679, but I'm not promising anything will come from it.

Ok, I read through it and I find your Viktor stuff to be just a massive miscommunication between you and Titus. Before I even saw Titus explain why she said "who?" I thought "She probably wants Singer to point out who would actually be Viktor"

I don't actually think much of 4662 holds weight to Titus? You conceded the part about Gamma/CDB and the Viktor thing is logically explained (if butchered in the representation).

Titus reminds me of mollie.

[Oversoul]

Singer, how many of your teammates agree with your Titus read? They seemed to be super involved early but now not so much?

I don't have any more recent games with Titus. For reason, lol.

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

[Oversoul]

@Oversoul, if I was a neighborizer, I would so be neighborizing you, for the sole purpose of trying to convey to you how I think. I was frankly pretty bummed when Empire subbed out considering he's had similar training on how to approach problems and I haven't played many games with him. My play has evolved since Dr. Who, more of abandoning what I suck at unless I have nothing else to go off of.

So you think that your style of play is based on your training as a lawyer/law school?

[Oversoul]

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

As I said in my previous post, there's something really off about Vezok. Call it gut, call it whatever, but I'm really not seeing a town thought process from him and every fiber of my being is telling me that he's scum here. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm still not seeing it. Cheetory is due to the fact that I'm having a hard time sorting him. I'm not saying he's scum, but I don't think he's town bloc material. Singer is focusing on nitpicky things to push while not trying to figure out thought process or motivation. She's using it as a way to make it look like she's scumhunting, but you'll notice that everything about it is off. Like I said, it reminds me of what Nacho does as scum.

I'm just going to say this now...

I am using the same reasoning to scum read Espeonage and to town read Vezok. They both claimed to be Vanilla Townies, yet both of them took different actions the first minor night.

As a vanilla townie, almost *no* reason exists to Detect. Especially on the FIRST Minor night. Sure, Espeonage thought he would "gain" a special power for it, or whatever excuse he used, but I don't buy it.

Spoiler: Espeonage Detect-gate

fery is a VT so there's nothing she can do by detecting sign. Tammy is my next-in-line townread.

Ok that's interesting. I thought I was a VT. :/

Which is part of why I was cool with creating wifom about my sign.

So not everyone has the universal powers that were in the op?

Tammy is still a bad pick.

Why would I be a bad pick even if you were town reading.

And why would the town need to recover from correctly town reading me?

Don't understand you.

FFery should pick the boon person or the boon pool we vote in. We know scum cannot influence uf she picks directly.

Ok that's interesting. I thought I was a VT. :/

Which is part of why I was cool with creating wifom about my sign.

So not everyone has the universal powers that were in the op?

Tammy is still a bad pick.

Ffery was stripped of hers. She's a treestump with a finite lifespan, not a VT.

Whoever gets the boon is going to be a target for Mafia.

So I think everyone needs to unvote. And then everyone needs to vote if they are ok with being booned. It spreads confusion for mafia over who is a PR and it also gives mafia wifom over if it is actually a good idea to go after whoever gets booned.

I don't want to see any votes on someone that hasn't said they are ok with being booned.

This is ridiculous. It is to literally nobody's advantage to claim anything other than being OK with being booned. PRs want it, VTs want to help cover the PRs, scum want to look like one of the above.

I have a feeling I might need to actually read the thread.

All of these posts happened within a short time frame from one another and to any *reasonable* person should have cleared up the confusion that Espeonage had. Yet, he STILL chose to Detect a universal town read on the first Minor Night. That is suspicious as fuck.

Vezok, as a VT, TRACED someone who he thought was scummy (TTH) trying to figure them out. If Vezok thought TTH could make herself town, why would he trace her? Why wouldn't he try to detect her and then subsequently kill her?

That is why I think Vezok is town and I am suspicious of Espeonage.
I have a strong town read on Gamma after rereading his play. He is vying for Espeonage so I am willing to let that read go to the back burner for now. Realistically, no VTs should be detecting to begin with. They should ALL be trying to trace people, unless they are trying to catch someone in an outright lie about the sign during a claim.

[Oversoul]

Singer, literally no one thought that GiF was a doctor. Why would Titus volunteer that information? It makes no sense.
Scum, unless they are super cheeky fucks like Mastin, or Fate, or someone cheeky as scum, do not volunteer information like that.

It is like Bulba said. Scum keep their mouths shut. I think GiF died because the scum had his sign. Plain and simple.

[Oversoul]

Why does Titus town or scum do ANY of these things?

I have no good answer for that. It seems illogical from both alignments. Unless there is a puppeteer dictating her actions? I don't think that is how she plays as scum though.

[Oversoul]

Although I think Singer is being stubborn with the Titus read. Her own teammates really do not support her read on Titus and she is clearly in the minority here. We should just lynch Untrod "Does not Scumhunt" Tripod and then try to build connections from there.

[Oversoul]

I don't mean to be disparaging to you Singer. I am probably coming across as dismissive and I don't mean to be. I am just much more certain on UT being scum than Titus. Plus, UT is a practical option and Titus isn't at the moment. This game needs death. Not more discussion.

[Oversoul]

What reads of UT have been "constantly evolving" ?

[Oversoul]

That is fair.

VOTE: DV

[Oversoul]

Fail. Meant to vote Fish, not DV.
I greatly encourage the counterwagons between FF and UT.

VOTE: Formerfish

[Oversoul]

Only thing town from Marquis is the replace out.
I've done that as scum though.
I even tricked the person replacing in, thinking it was a town slot b

[Oversoul]

Is it because of the roosters?

[Oversoul]

I already supplied my Vezok town read, Bulba.

Curious why you went with the 50% of getting scum group rather than the 66% chance of getting scum group, especially since your VCA seems to align with the town's feelings at the moment (UT scum)?

[Oversoul]

Why is it so hard to make people give a shit about this game.

[Oversoul]

No. I don't want anymore fucking vanity wagons.

Too many people are pulling in too many directions. This was my main issue Day 1 and why I only wanted those select few people to get lynched so we could at least consolidate our abysmal effort into something salvageable.

UT is literally not scumhunting. Since I joined the game, all of his play has been reactive. No one is really putting in any true effort to get their suspects lynched other than Singer with Titus, which is unfortunately just a read I disagree with.
Sure, would I lynch DV for lurking and being a nonpresence, yeah. I don't understand why DV's nonpresence is somehow worse than UT's nonpresence when so much more support exists for a UT lynch than a DV lynch.

I wanted to appease Singer, for the sake of town unity, but it isn't worth it given how everyone else is playing. This game badly needs an injection of activity. Lynches/death is the solution.

Sorry Singer.

VOTE: UT

[Oversoul]

You could have voted someone. Good luck with life DV!

[Oversoul]

His vote could still be applying pressure while looking for a replacement. Would at least help move the game state forward.

[Oversoul]

Hey UT.
Can you start taking the game seriously so I can actually get a read on you?
Because like, jesus I'm feeling really tempted to sheep this wagon on you because of how garbage you're being at engaging literally anything in this game and if it weren't for the odds being so high that there are tryhard-as-fuck scum directing the game right now, I would be getting on board as well. [and I mean the fact that I don't want to be on another wagon without actually agreeing with it from here on out because holy fuck the VCAheads are probably just licking their chops at the idea of a UT townflip as an excuse to devour me whole]
So please, talk about why you think Gamma is apparently scummy. Or like, literally anything reads-wise.
Or replace out. Either would be appreciated.

I don't fuck around with false confidence bullshit like tons of people will with every read they push

Okay.
Tell me what is potentially different between here and with elusive in DoA then? How absolutely confident are you that UT isn't just being a shitter as town?

JUST VOTE HIM

You and Singer are trying to do everything you can not to vote UT

[Oversoul]

also, I'm Alquin

suck it

let's actually vote for some scums now

In order to do that

You would probably have to

umm

vote?

[Oversoul]

hmmmmm you claimed Alquin? Are you 100% sticking with that claim?

[Oversoul]

: ]

[Oversoul]

UT, if you're joking about this now is the time to back down.

[Oversoul]

the correct line of play today as Alquin wouldn't have been the fucking counterclaim, dipshit

get wrecked

What?

[Oversoul]

the correct line of play today as Alquin wouldn't have been the fucking counterclaim, dipshit

get wrecked

Let me get this straight. You are saying this from my point of view, that I shouldn't have counterclaimed as Alquin?

Caught yeah.

[Oversoul]

the correct line of play today as Alquin wouldn't have been the fucking counterclaim, dipshit

get wrecked

Let me get this straight. You are saying this from my point of view, that I shouldn't have counterclaimed as Alquin?

I'm waiting UT

[Oversoul]

Blades dull, Candles burn, Stones erode: UT

Die bitch

[Oversoul]

Wtf oversoul.

I used the boon to get your sign on the first day. And guess what. You aren't candle. So what's with the lying?

[Oversoul]

Fuck. I thought Hito went to bed and I would have the whole night with my shenanigans to let you all stew

[Oversoul]

If I had actually counterclaimed Alquin I would have said as much. I wouldn't have been cheeky

[Oversoul]

That said

if the real Alquin wants to stand up, a 1 for 1 would be great. I don't buy UT's claim for a second

[Oversoul]

Wtf oversoul.

I used the boon to get your sign on the first day. And guess what. You aren't candle. So what's with the lying?

But really

This is why you don't give people like Vezok the boon over people like Tammy

[Oversoul]

Can you stop spamming like a hyperactive candy kid for a minute Cheet? He faked a power, people do it all the time.
A better question would be if anyone has checked UT's sign and knows if he's Candle or not.

Empire did.

I give up

UT scum was my last bastion of sanity

[Oversoul]

Vote: DV

I don't want to vote for the guy who is V/LA because of his finacee

Sheep Mode engaged.

[Oversoul]

I mean, we would get 3 lynches + scumUT lynch if reAlquin claimed before shit goes down during the night.

I'm so defeated Gamma, so very defeated

[Oversoul]

Like Alquin dies tonight, then 3 unmakes happen the next night. But we get 4 lynches in before that. Meh, I dunno

[Oversoul]

We should come to a consensus on whether or not reAlquin claims or not. I can't decide if that is more antitown or not then to brave uncharted waters with a UT lynch. Let me sleep on it

[Oversoul]

I didn't counterclaim you UT
I fake counterclaimes you

How you bought it considering Tammy's posts when she had the slot is beyond me

[Oversoul]

If he is reAlquin then the scum get three kills tonight.

[Oversoul]

Pretty much we are fucked.

[Oversoul]

We do if we leave him alive today. He is already baned, we could get lucky and hit another scum with our two lynches today. :shrug:

As much as I want to lynch UT and follow Gamma, I think the best course of action is to search elsewhere.

Also, now that the game has ended, Empire replaced into this game FROM a scum slot. Interesting that he chose a scum slot initially.
Makes me les certain about his replacing in.

[Oversoul]

My post was responding to Titus

[Oversoul]

It's like 9% he gets scum. I don't actually think he put tokens on town there.

[Oversoul]

I really don't have anyone else as a scum read as strong as I have UT

[Oversoul]

I'm going to wait for more people to check in

[Oversoul]

Vezok, scum would not advocate for a UT lynch when they could kill him.

That's a shitty argument. If UT were actually Alquin, you bet scum would want him lynched.

Yeah. I agree with CDB. If I was scum I would probably try to force the lynch through too.

[Oversoul]

Oversoul, that dickery was needlessly water-muddying and I wish you hadn't done it.

In what way?

[Oversoul]

We do if we leave him alive today. He is already baned, we could get lucky and hit another scum with our two lynches today. :shrug:

As much as I want to lynch UT and follow Gamma, I think the best course of action is to search elsewhere.

Also, now that the game has ended, Empire replaced into this game FROM a scum slot. Interesting that he chose a scum slot initially.
Makes me les certain about his replacing in.

It's like 9% he gets scum. I don't actually think he put tokens on town there.

Singer, I don't know why you got so defensive over these two posts. I meant to say scum in the second one. That was a brain fart.

I really think that we should take UT off the table for lynch today. If he is Alquin, his death is too irresistible for scum. They will most likely kill him tonight. He is already Baned anyway, so letting him go for another night is not too horrible.

[Oversoul]

Yeah, and it's crap, because it's looking at the wrong stuff. For instance, why would Vezok think TTH is scum for detecting obv. townread DV when Vezok spent his guaranteed sign detect on obv. town Tammy? One of those things is not like the other...

Why are you saying my read is crap based on information that I did not have? When I made that read I did not know that he had Detected Tammy. It is that type of poor play making that should have prevented Vezok from ever getting that boon, but c'est la vie.

I would think Detecting Obvtown reads is in preparation to kill them at night.