13p Normal [TM2015]

[SleepyKrew]

ipso facto reductio ad absurdum!

[sthar8]

My point is, yesterday you told me that my actions were just not town motivated, and my reaction was to think you were nuts. I'm not gonna take that as a scumtell since I know that as of last day phase, it wasn't.

as I said, my reasoning for scum reading you on D1 was completely different than my reasoning for scum reading Mala here.

Right, that's not my point. I agree with a lot of that, but thing like being wrong about in-thread events and being defensive are not explicitly scummy. What I was responding to was your argument that mala's

response to your case

was inherently scummy.

pushing that Egg made a snap decision under pressure relies on the assumption that he didn't take any time at all when all this was happening to consider what he'd actually do. I'm mostly interested in why you think he wouldn't actually do this.

I'm sure he did have a plan. But he comes back into the thread to try to get Fen to hammer trojan and get his scumbuddy off the hook for the day and/or look like he was trying to prevent a no-lynch for towncred, Fen responds with a logical argument that he didn't anticipate, and then he's under pressure from me and Fen with very little time left on the clock, and he decides to hammer his scumbuddy to look like town. It's not a long logical leap.

On the other hand "you're biased because egg's day 1 is scummy; I'm ignoring that because he was the last second hammer" is blowing my mind. All I can say in response is that I don't think a lawnmower blade can generate enough lift to get the whole bookcase off the ground.

Sthar, you said at the beginning of the day that Delta was scum. You seemed very sure of it but haven't really commented on him since. Do you have a case against him? Are you still scum reading him. You also said you don't like the Mala wagon. Do you think she's town? Am I right in assuming you'd prefer a Delta lynch to a Mala lynch?

I have a stronger scumread.
I asked everyone how they felt about his ISO and nobody posted anything that pointed to him being town that I remember.
I would prefer Delta-lynch to mala-lynch if we decide to ignore the good lynch today.
I am not townreading mala. She's pretty null since she hasn't really done much, but also hasn't really been given room to do anything but react. But there's no reason to compromise on a null or lurker or proficiency lynch today when my scumreads are viable wagons.

[DeltaWave]

Delta, have you made an effort to sort your Mala read? I assume you'd vote her over no lynch or your own lynch, correct? How would you feel about a Boon flash wagon lol

Mala's case against me is bad, really bad, manufactured bad. I wanted to lynch my top scumread at deadline instead of the two PR claims. That's pretty much the case. I can't get it through my head that this takes precedence over boon's incessant self-meta manipulation when I did the only logical thing to do. There's still something that's nagging at me about Mala, like I'm missing something here. In any event I still think Boon is a better lynch and I'll roll with that wagon if there's support for it. Otherwise Mala's got to go.

[Egg]

Sthar, I feel like you decided to scum read me as soon as I questioned you at the beginning of day 1 and everything you see, you try to make fit that mold.

viable wagons

I'd like to know how you define this. I have one vote (yours) and we are five days from deadline. If mala and Delta both happen to claim power roles, we'll be in the same spot as yesterday where there is no other lynch option and the chances of that working out nicely on back to back days are pretty low. Do you honestly believe you can sway five people in five days?

[Trojan Horse]

TH, why's Tammy townreading Mala?

Okay, Tammy says she thinks Mala is town based on this post...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I can finally flesh out my townread more on Boons because the game I was carefully watching just ended.

So the reason why I was against the push in Jason's D1 play and why my townread on Boons strengthened was due to this game. If you read his ISO he was attacked early D1 because of his play. Lurking, not contributing much etc and then later on used for mislynch bait. His reactions that game reminded me of how he reacted here.

... and based on Mala's frustration in general. But again, she says she hasn't been reading this game as closely as she would like.

Trojan, you FoS'd Mala after Oversoul said she was scum. Now Tammy thinks Mala is town. Are you personally scum reading Mala? Do you trust your read more than Tammy's? What is your read on Delta, who you don't seem to have commented on today? Which of the two would you rather lynch?

Personally, I'm leaning scum on Mala. I would normally give top priority to my own reads, but the events of day 1 have shaken my confidence. (I was reading Thor as town at first. Tammy and Oversoul weren't fooled.) I have a null read on Delta. I have to consider him a suspect, since he jumped onto my bandwagon at the end of day 1. But his actions during day 1 seemed genuine. I would rather lynch Mala than Delta right now.

Sthar, I feel like you decided to scum read me as soon as I questioned you at the beginning of day 1 and everything you see, you try to make fit that mold.

viable wagons

I'd like to know how you define this. I have one vote (yours) and we are five days from deadline. If mala and Delta both happen to claim power roles, we'll be in the same spot as yesterday where there is no other lynch option and the chances of that working out nicely on back to back days are pretty low. Do you honestly believe you can sway five people in five days?

He might be able to sway me. You're #3 on my list right now, after Vyse and Mala.

[pieguyn]

Right, that's not my point. I agree with a lot of that, but thing like being wrong about in-thread events and being defensive are not explicitly scummy. What I was responding to was your argument that mala's response to your case was inherently scummy.

you're missing the fucking point

Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, I just fucking told you mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "...... DERP DERP NOPE"

that is..... basically the gist of what happened. so, tell me what the fuck is town about that thought process. I literally told her she was wrong about this, and she blatantly ignored it and continued pushing it anyway. she doesn't actually fucking believe she's saying. she's just repeating that mastin's scum read on her comes entirely from her voting TH on D1 and hoping people accept it as truth without actually rereading the game. and the thing with this is, this is explicitly scum motivated: by downplaying mastin's read on her, she's hoping people find it less compelling than they would normally.

and she does it again:

Mala: "you're tunneling me, you're taking effort and using it as a scum tell"
me: "I'm not tunneling you, I don't think you're scum for your effort. I just will town read you for other reasons if I town read you here, since I think effort is fairly null."
Mala: "OMG nope, you're tunneling me, you don't consider that I might just fucking be town trying to read Boon correctly."
me: "I literally fucking said I don't think you're scum for your read on Boon - rather, what I said only applies *IF* you actually *ARE* scum."
Mala: "NOPE"

it's fucking intentional, and it's a fairly textbook scum tactic. that's not a fucking town method of thought, and how it's not obvious this is what she's doing here is beyond me. these are not the only two instances where she's done this, and if you read through my posts, you'll see that all of it does, indeed, have explicit scum motivation behind it. she absolutely has reasons to pull this shit as scum.

I'm sure he did have a plan. But he comes back into the thread to try to get Fen to hammer trojan and get his scumbuddy off the hook for the day and/or look like he was trying to prevent a no-lynch for towncred, Fen responds with a logical argument that he didn't anticipate, and then he's under pressure from me and Fen with very little time left on the clock, and he decides to hammer his scumbuddy to look like town. It's not a long logical leap.

On the other hand "you're biased because egg's day 1 is scummy; I'm ignoring that because he was the last second hammer" is blowing my mind. All I can say in response is that I don't think a lawnmower blade can generate enough lift to get the whole bookcase off the ground.

like, here

you're assuming Egg didn't stop to consider that people might actually make actual *arguments* in order to back up what lynch they want. why? how the fuck do you think he thinks mafia is played? and you're also assuming Egg "looking like town" is more important than outright saving his scum partner Thor, when he had basically no reason to hammer. again, why?

I generally feel your reasoning here relies on the assumption that Egg is a shit player as scum who doesn't think. /shrug

[pieguyn]

TH, why's Tammy townreading Mala?

Okay, Tammy says she thinks Mala is town based on this post...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I can finally flesh out my townread more on Boons because the game I was carefully watching just ended.

So the reason why I was against the push in Jason's D1 play and why my townread on Boons strengthened was due to this game. If you read his ISO he was attacked early D1 because of his play. Lurking, not contributing much etc and then later on used for mislynch bait. His reactions that game reminded me of how he reacted here.

... and based on Mala's frustration in general. But again, she says she hasn't been reading this game as closely as she would like.

please don't buy that shit. again - the last scum game I had, I deliberately went out of my way to meta dive someone who was being universally scum read and I came to a genuine conclusion that their town meta was a lot different from their scum meta, and thus that they were obviously town in that game bc they weren't playing in any way to their scum meta. and I spent the majority of the game defending a town player with arguments that were pretty fucking solid, and under normal circumstances (read: that town not being derp) should have outright derailed the lynch if anyone was so much as thinking about the game.

being genuine about town reads as scum isn't difficult to fake.

[Malakittens]

I haven't fully read up, but I will when I get home tonight. I'm about to go out to dinner.

Pie -- now you have said that Mastin is following/reading the game. Can I get an updated read on me? Mastin is probably one of the few on the site that can read me flawlessly without error. (Well maybe one or two games she's read me wrong) in regards to your team i would suggest getting her full read on me. That means she's should be reading my ISO/interactions and D1 play. I'm not sure if she's just reading the end of D1 or where she was read from and too. Between you, notty and Mara each of you hve had games that read me wrong full stop. Pie you seem to read me wrong, you ended up dayvigging last game and I think there's been another game that you were off base. Notty also misread me during that game and Mara used to be wrong at reading me. So what im saying is between your team, mastin should be the one with the moe influencal one with a read.

So what im saying is between your team, mastin should be the one with the moe influencal one with a read.

yeah, about that.

guess what mastin's read on you is? she feels preeeetty fucking strongly about it, and I agree.

What I was asking has she read the game fully or is she just reading off of my end game of D1?

Again I reached out twice to your prior because apparently you kept the need to misinterpret me before going full on attack.

I already proved that Mastin has not read the whole game. You kept saying she was reading me as scum from my play in general so I was asking you when/what post that was. Which you never answered. All you kept saying was general play in general which is non-specific answer.

I got frustrated with you so I was trying to narrow that down. you kept shoving she's scumreading you due to general play down my fucking throat. That's why I'm basically ignoring you because I'm just not wanting to be bothered to work with someone who doesn't want to take the bloody time to understand me.

~

Also to those who asked me to explain my DW connection I did, but I'll be willing to requote it for those who are apparently deciding to skim/overlook my post.

~

Maybe a reason right now I'm scumreading SK is due to his coasting, but the fact he keeps legitimately saying he's busy. (Which I get it maybe he's busy I'm not berating him for that), but apparently he's unbusy enough to post elsewhere and just skating here. It bothers me because he just comes in with posts to egg on my lynch without actually giving a fucking care in the world to push me.

Somehow everyone's focusing on my lynch, but ignoring other issues at hand.

We have SK who's lurking/coasting. Who thinks because he believes he's obv town (and busy) he has the right to do this. It's not right, it's not town behavior.

Then we have Vsye who I'm sorry, but his posts haven't swayed me either way to figure out his alignment. Micc was essentially a non-poster IMO, but someone who I early read as scum for a sheep.

It will probably that I'll end up lynched, I'll have scum on my wagon (which I think is one of SK/Egg) and they'll probably skate by because people will push to lynch those on the TH wagon because apparently "those" on the Thor wagon has reasons to be eliminated as scum partners. Egg's elimination is a horrible reason to not read someone as a scum partner. It's a bad read IMO. Not to mention there's been people "eliminated" as scum on the TH wagon for reasons that don't essentially make sense either.

~

STD I clearly gave reasons why I was townreading Boon, however, it had to wait until it was over before I could post it or I was in direct violation of site rules.

[Egg]

Mala, who are you saying I've "eliminated"? Just to clarify.

[Malakittens]

I'll just leave these two posts here that no one will give a flying fuck about anyways.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I can finally flesh out my townread more on Boons because the game I was carefully watching just ended.

So the reason why I was against the push in Jason's D1 play and why my townread on Boons strengthened was due to this game. If you read his ISO he was attacked early D1 because of his play. Lurking, not contributing much etc and then later on used for mislynch bait. His reactions that game reminded me of how he reacted here.

Pretty much. There's really no reason for town to go ahead and try to run up a

fourth

person and then shout from the rooftops how lynching a PR D1 is bad when if he managed to flashwagon/flashlynch Boon, Boon wouldn't have had a chance to claim.

Theoretically speaking had this scenario happened what was the likelihood of Boon being able to claim while being Vla? Very low. That was a risk that I don't think anyone in a town mindset would have especially when town would have had a safe way out which was to lynch the claimed VT (which happened to be you there TH).

But yes if scum-delta pushed for a town-Boon to derail a lynch on D1. Jason was off the books at that point, he could have easily hammered thor, but after shouting how he didn't agree with a PR lynch D1 it would have looked fishy as hell to hammer there so his only option would to go after a viable mislynch:re:boon.

So yes I would have thought you would be a great scum partner to DW if DW is to flip scum.

[Malakittens]

Mala, who are you saying I've "eliminated"? Just to clarify.

I'm not saying you. I'm talking about the people who "eliminated" you from the scumpool.

[Egg]

Oh.

So....

Pie?

[Malakittens]

Pie, STD(I think?).

I mean who fucks knows what SK is thinking right now besides me and boons.

(Also I'm kinda annoyed at RL stuff atm).

[Egg]

STD doesn't seem to have 100% made up his mind.

[sthar8]

Sthar, I feel like you decided to scum read me as soon as I questioned you at the beginning of day 1 and everything you see, you try to make fit that mold.

viable wagons

I'd like to know how you define this. I have one vote (yours) and we are five days from deadline. If mala and Delta both happen to claim power roles, we'll be in the same spot as yesterday where there is no other lynch option and the chances of that working out nicely on back to back days are pretty low. Do you honestly believe you can sway five people in five days?

Yes? Me, Vyse, Boon, TH. Mala will vote out of self preservation. That means I need... one vote, and skrew was willing to vote you at the beginning of the day.

you're missing the fucking point

You can fuck right off with this. I said I find your points unconvincing and that one point bad, and you're moving the goalposts on the point I made. Ask mastin how I feel about people trying to railroad me into shit.

Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, I just fucking told you mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "...... DERP DERP NOPE"

So, assuming you're town, I tell you that antihero is scumreading you because *your play.* What the fuck is the townie response to that? I would say "well antihero is fucking wrong." Antihero isn't as invested in the game as someone who's playing it, you can't interact with antihero, and there's no expectation that antihero has some magic fucking process that lets him solve the game from outside it.
Mala's response was "Well maybe this is why mastin is scumreading me." Which is not actually alignment indicative because if she's town she's trying to figure out what she's doing wrong and if she's scum she's trying to manipulate mastin. And what the fuck is she supposed to say to "NO THATS NOT WHY SHE THINKS YOU'RE SCUM!!!1!" Like, fucking of course she's going to continue to disagree. Either she KNOWS FOR A FACT THAT MASTIN IS FULL OF SHIT or SHE HAS TO PRETEND THAT SO SHE PLAYS TO HER WIN CONDITION. She does the same fucking thing regardless of her alignment, so it's not a fucking tell! What other response are you expecting? Should town-mala go "oh right my bad i'm scum?!?"

you're assuming Egg didn't stop to consider that people might actually make actual *arguments* in order to back up what lynch they want. why? how the fuck do you think he thinks mafia is played?

Are you just incapable of arguing in good faith? I'm assuming Egg didn't stop to consider EVERY POSSIBLE ARGUMENT THAT ANYONE COULD EVER MAKE, yeah.

and you're also assuming Egg "looking like town" is more important than outright saving his scum partner Thor, when he had basically no reason to hammer. again, why?

So Egg doesn't hammer. Thor has claimed hider, and gets lynched at massclaim or the first time one of his faked results fucks up. His death is inevitable, and when it happens, nobody is going to go back and see who prevented his day1 lynch for no reason?

I generally feel your reasoning here relies on the assumption that Egg is a shit player as scum who doesn't think. /shrug

I feel like your reasoning relies on the assumption that Egg is a great player as scum who would never make a mistake, but a shit player as town. One of those is a goofy fucking stretch.

[Malakittens]

Sthar -- I specifically asked Pie to give me Mastin's read on me. I asked a simple question and got a non-conclusive answer. So I kept repeating said question to get a direct response, still nothing.

[Egg]

So Egg doesn't hammer. Thor has claimed hider, and gets lynched at massclaim or the first time one of his faked results fucks up. His death is inevitable, and when it happens, nobody is going to go back and see who prevented his day1 lynch for no reason? 

Um. You just made my arguement for me. This is exactly why I would have never hard defended Thor as scum. And I said this at the beginning of Day 2.

I feel like your reasoning relies on the assumption that Egg is a great player as scum who would never make a mistake, but a shit player as town. One of those is a goofy fucking stretch

What part of having a wrong read, but hammering to avoid no lynch, is shit town play? Also, "make a mistake" is a hell of an understatement for hammering a buddy at the last minute instead of saving him for town points that probably won't happen.

[DeltaWave]

I have a null read on Delta. I have to consider him a suspect, since he jumped onto my bandwagon at the end of day 1.

Well that's thanks to Greyice, who also told me that Thor was town. Thanks GreyIce.

[Malakittens]

I have a null read on Delta. I have to consider him a suspect, since he jumped onto my bandwagon at the end of day 1.

Well that's thanks to Greyice, who also told me that Thor was town. Thanks GreyIce.

.....................

I thought you didn't want to lynch a D1 PR

[Trojan Horse]

I thought you didn't want to lynch a D1 PR

That's what I was about to say.

[Egg]

I thought you didn't want to lynch a D1 PR

That's what I was about to say.

Yeah.........

0__o

[pieguyn]

I already proved that Mastin has not read the whole game. You kept saying she was reading me as scum from my play in general so I was asking you when/what post that was. Which you never answered. All you kept saying was general play in general which is non-specific answer.

I got frustrated with you so I was trying to narrow that down. you kept shoving she's scumreading you due to general play down my fucking throat. That's why I'm basically ignoring you because I'm just not wanting to be bothered to work with someone who doesn't want to take the bloody time to understand me.

no, no this is not what you did

you asked me for mastin's read on you and then immediately assumed it came entirely from the fact you voted TH instead of Thor at the end of D1. and you didn't ask mastin exactly why she was scum reading you, either - rather, you used the fact that she didn't read the whole game as an excuse to get out of it.

like

this is everything you said about mastin's read on you:

Spoiler:

I haven't fully read up, but I will when I get home tonight. I'm about to go out to dinner.

Pie -- now you have said that Mastin is following/reading the game. Can I get an updated read on me? Mastin is probably one of the few on the site that can read me flawlessly without error. (Well maybe one or two games she's read me wrong) in regards to your team i would suggest getting her full read on me. That means she's should be reading my ISO/interactions and D1 play. I'm not sure if she's just reading the end of D1 or where she was read from and too. Between you, notty and Mara each of you hve had games that read me wrong full stop. Pie you seem to read me wrong, you ended up dayvigging last game and I think there's been another game that you were off base. Notty also misread me during that game and Mara used to be wrong at reading me. So what im saying is between your team, mastin should be the one with the moe influencal one with a read.

So what im saying is between your team, mastin should be the one with the moe influencal one with a read.

yeah, about that.

guess what mastin's read on you is? she feels preeeetty fucking strongly about it, and I agree.

What I was asking has she read the game fully or is she just reading off of my end game of D1?

Also Pie seriously your tunnel on me pretty much all game is crap. You didn't consult with mara or Mastin when I reached out to you before, but now it's pretty clear Mastin has a read that deciding to fit your bill to a T.

I want Mastin to read from The start of D1 and not just the end of D1 pie. That a way to gain a flawed read and not an accurate one.

I want Mastin to read from The start of D1 and not just the end of D1 pie. That a way to gain a flawed read and not an accurate one.

didn't you just say it was just her fitting her read to my read?

regardless, I'll ask her, but she feels you are "certainly scum" just based on your posts today/at the end of D1, so I don't particularly understand why you think her read on you would be different if she read the whole game.

(this is another post I don't see a town approach in, btw. you're essentially claiming that mastin's read is invalid bc she hasn't read the game - again, trying to discredit. /shrug)

I'm not trying to discredit her. I'm trying to get her to gain a more accurate read than she has currently. Her read is in fact wrong, but that's because she's scum reading me because of my unwillingness to hammer Thor, which it's unreasonable for her to believe that my beliefs got in the way to not wanting to hammer.

I'm trying to interact with you so I can engage you and try to help you where you are reading me wrong. I couldn't figure out why you were scum reading me in FakeGod's game nor did I have the time/enegery/willpower to care to that game after the attacks during it. That game state WASNT fun for me, however, this game I still have the opportunity to see where you are astray.

Whereas I would like Mastin to read from the start of D1. I think just basing off the fact my actions at the end of D1 is a way to get an incorrect read. So what I'm saying IS you need to reset and so does Mastin.

I didn't say her read is invalid. I want her to read from D1 start to now and see if it changes. She's wrong, you are wrong. You both need to stop and face the music.

there is no engagement here. you just kept claiming her scum read on you was based entirely around the end of D1 despite the fact I was telling you to the contrary - and you never did specifically ask her precisely where her scum read on you came from. I also see you trying to claim that her read was "biased" because I was reading you as scum, again not engaging her over it but searching for reasons to discredit it.

so.... yay?

[pieguyn]

like, in that entire series of posts, you NEVER attempted to actually ask her specifically where her read on you was coming from.

you just kept claiming it was based around the end of D1 and telling her to read the whole game. I don't see you asking her this or attempting to figure out exactly where her scum read on you came from, even after I explicitly told you you were wrong. like, I could maybe see this if you had asked her a bunch of stuff and you just happened not to specifically ask that question, but there really is no solid engagement at all there.

[pieguyn]

so tl;dr you're fucking lying

[pieguyn]

@sthar:

I really don't see the point in arguing any further over this, but if you're going to attempt to deconstruct my argument, and you completely miss what my argument actually is, don't fucking act surprised/indignated when I correct you on it. regardless, I still don't agree with what you're saying, and I don't see either of us convincing the other over this at this rate either.