In post 1997, Mina wrote:Why has NO ONE commented on what MS's posts say about his alignment?
Euuurgh. It's hard.
- I like them because there are a
lot
of them. Like, we just had a posting marathon. I'm not sure scum could put in such sustained effort.
- I like them because his thought process is clearly visible across all of them.
- I don't like them because a lot of the analysis seems simplistic or belaboured.
- I don't like them because he doesn't seem open to rereading the game or reconsidering his reads.
In post 1949, Quilford wrote:I remember a long long time ago, one of my first games here, there was a player called Internet Stranger who had flipped scum in a game I had replaced into. And there was only one scum left, so I was looking for partner connections. I looked at the ISOs of the two players I was going to have to choose from, and one player had not interacted with IS or vice versa at all, and the other had. And I voted the first player, and they flipped town. Lesson learned
Heh, so I went looking for this game and it turns out the first player was actually scum after all.
So that's awkward!
It was my first game with chamber tho <3 <3 chambs
In post 1997, Mina wrote:MS, why are you individually scumhunting the posts of dead people?
What are you talking about? Quilford highlighted to me the parts where he wanted me to analyse, which was the first 5 pages, and I did. Definitely it includes more dead players than live ones.
In post 1997, Mina wrote:Also, why are you coincidentally townreading all the flipped town players but scumreading or nullreading the reactinons of those who haven't flipped?
I'm not sure what you're looking for in this. I've mentioned earlier that I was townreading alchey and scumreading quil on Day 1 itself, but because I wasn't invested in the game so I didn't push hard on molla to change his reads. Also, I've only scum or nullread the reactions of ETL? That's only one.
In post 1997, Mina wrote:(On that note, Regfan has been pestering me to post all his thoughts in the thread for a couple of days--now I have to update the newbie queue before work, so I probably can't oblige him until tonight. Given he's a lot more sane and anchored than I am, I figure paraphrasing them might be valuable to someone.)
Can Zar provide some input into the game? He is in the game that I died in, so he saw my scumgame first-hand. I want to draw similarities between what Quilford is doing now.
In post 1997, Mina wrote:Also, why are you coincidentally townreading all the flipped town players but scumreading or nullreading the reactinons of those who haven't flipped?
Also...... poooosssibly because I cheated and saw the answers before I 'took the test'
Sorry, I'm late for work now, and my phone is dead! But quick answers: major reason that his thought process was a lot more consistent than I'd expect as scum (the activity and confidence I think are null tells). I started doubting this when I saw he was getting kind of nitpicky with you. But gtg, so can't really be more specific.
The questions I mean (I didn't really get where you were heading with them):
I prefer asking them one by one, so I'll just leave the next one.
BBmolla—your slot!—enters the game in #60. What do you make of the reactions to his entrance?
In post 1901, Quilford wrote:You get a B. Not enough talking about attitude outside of the second sentence.
Next question!
Sticking with ETL and Mara, another short discussion about scum play and meta between them spans #49, #50, #52, #57, #58, #59, #66, #70 and finishes with #76.
What do you think of this discussion? Does it contain any hidden ironies?
Up to post #32 there was a discussion going on between ETL and Mara about the merits of RVS. What do you think of ETL's attitude during this discussion?
Zar hasn't given input on your posts yet, MS, although I asked for it in the team Skype chat. He was pretty tunneled on BBmolla at the beginning of today, but then he and singer (who I don't think has read the entirety of my game) seemed to be leaning more on ETL-scum last I checked (before you replaced in).
And JF did something where he townread Alchemist to high heavens but called everyone else scummy, so that's why I'm looking out for that kind of behaviour.
UNVOTE: Metal Sonic, though.
p-edit: I did like Molla's replace out, too, but like I said, different burden of proof for unvotes!
In post 2008, Mina wrote:And JF did something where he townread Alchemist to high heavens but called everyone else scummy, so that's why I'm looking out for that kind of behaviour.
Exactly.
This is the quintessential reason why Molla's replace out was town.
In post 1479, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:The biggest issue with quilford is that I haven't been able to figure him out the entire game, and my whole team thinks he's scum, especially after Johnny's scum flip and the way that happened. I'm supposed to ignore all that in favor of a single player's one-game meta on him? I just can't do that anymore.
It's funny, cause this actually happened in my team pt too. vezok suddenly went gung ho after molla was like "halp guyz i dunno what to do" and bombed a case on quil, then shos posted a bit more points. my contribution to the discussion was merely "yeah okay, quil looks like scum"
so i can feel where ETL was coming from and the fact that it appeared simultaneously in my team PT too independently gives it a lot of weight
Anyways first five pages are about as useful as first give pages generally are.
Early thoughts include Mina seems like she's stretching, but whether that's scum trying too hard vs. town trying to end RVS remains to be seen.
BPC uses a lot of exclamation points and Quil is cutesy, and I want to look into their metas to see if these two things are as pronounced in their town games because psychology blah blah blah
Mara looked like she was trying to step on people's toes
I don't particularly like the way Espy switches from talking directly to people to talking in general at everyone here.
Not sure why Alch is getting votes for being useless, he's far from the only one and I don't see anything else really scummy
BB is either reaction testing or just no fun. Maybe both.
A couple people haven't posted yet -_-
... One of them is my slot -_-
Enter Patrick. He's a wet blanket. Hooray. His Alch attack looks bad to me, but that could just be coming from my knowledge that he's town.
Alch is broadcasting newbtells on all wavelengths and people are attacking him for it -_- his response to quil was really good too -_- HINDSIGHT
Mina gets kudos for actually looking up Alch's GTKAS, and also continued hunting throughout these pages. Not really alignment indicative, but I'd rather she continued living. Though the weird condescension here makes me think he was a little too willing to lynch a person who was clearly not all the way good at Mafia yet. Meh. I could be convinced to vote Mina.
BB with the same defense I would make. Does right mean town? Then makes a terrible argument. Does wrong mean scum? Basically my problem with this whole minimalistic "vote who I think is right and be difficult about everything else" playstyle is that it makes it really hard for me to think of you as anything but scum when you're so wrong. Hopefully you pick it up in the future.
I can't think of Quil as anything but town thanks to Mina's convincing.
(I should probably figure out what all this token nonsense is, and just read the TM rules in general)
Also the general "my scumreads are just PoE because everyone's SO TOWNY" is scary to me right now. Also the use of sheeping as a dirty word and the use of the word misrep at all makes me upset. Sheeping is fine and only bad players misrep.
BPC's unhappiness with Mina's townread on my slot seems weird to me, given that BPC wasn't particularly advocating for my scuminess. Simple disdain for others' townreads reads as scum to me.
Quil seems uncharacteristically hostilehere and I don't know what to think about it. Then he just flies off the deep end? What is happening?
Espy says (don't worry guys this absence has been site wide) and that irks me. Also makes it clear he's doing ISOs in alphabetical order. If small scumreads keep piling up I'm going to vote him just for the pleasure of not dealing with him in a potential lylo situation.
Cutting this short at page 14 because phone is dying. Bbl.
In post 869, JohnnyFarrar wrote:Quil is laying it on so thick. Reading day two is gonna be funny or sad. Angry catbug made me laugh though.
Patrick is sooooooo boooooooring. All of his reads are great and well thought out and logical in a way that tells me nothing about his alignment at all.
BB's deafness to those who disagree with him is annoying. Forget what I said about Espy sucking in lylo, BB would ruin lylo for town. His stance that my slot is scum regardless of Alch lynch given between pages 24 and 25 combined with his "I'm not voting anyone but Alch today" stance reeks to me of setting up future lynches, which I don't like.
BPC is so hard to read guys
Espy's vote on Mara is pretty damn confusing considering Alch was town. Can't figure out why it happened and the reasons stated are pretty bad.
WOAH NO REASON MARA CLAIM. THE FUCK?
Holy shit the day turned into a disaster after that. Pursuing this and starting a new piece
Holy SHIT. his posts are ALL DESCRIPTION 0 ANALYSIS
It appears that in this game, you prize analysis and semantics. You prize deep thought process.
Somehow, you turn off the blinkers at Johnny and let him PASS with this BULL UTTER SHIT
Holy crap, this one of the most alignment-indicative hypocritical biases I've ever seen.
Not even a call out. Not even a point-by-point break-down on his lack of points. Nope, just lame questions about a few controversial reads when all of them actually warrant one.
Mina, how can you be so blind? Remember what you posted earlier 883
"Apparently, your one town read is Quilford. Can you restate why?" <------------- I think this is significant in the fact that both Quilford and Jf were mutually "townreading" each other during light amounts of pressure from ETL and a vote from Molla.
In post 883, Mina wrote:2) complaining about how the one person we've already lynched, Alchemist21, was apparently more town than every single other player in the game except for Quilford. (I've always thought the "chastising players for the lynch" scumtell was overrated, but you're so attuned to every piece of blinding innocence from our top suspect D1, and yet can't see similar signs coming from most living players?)
This was before BPC/Brian claimed watcher. Context fucking helps, friends.
See the absolute fucking problem here? Johnny was
necessary
for the scumteam to live because the Watcher was unknown; by getting the watch immune goon dead, it would've been suicidal. Ironically, it was only after Brian claimed watcher that Johnny was bussable; I mean, they're killing the watcher anyway that night, having the watch-immune dead was finally given the green light. Before the watcher was eliminated, however, the watch-immune goon had to be kept alive. Even if he was the scummiest thing ever to slither out of a truck shop toilet.
Quilford, if following his normal rules, principles, and trajectory, would have LATCHED ONTO JOHNNY LIKE A HAWK AND CRUSHED HIM. He has no problem sparring with me, ETL, mina, et al with logic attacks, but when faced with Johnny's jokes of 842 and beyond, we get these fail reasons to townread him:
In post 995, Quilford wrote:Also, therein lies the problem with BBmolla, which is that I get really suspicious of people who can't see him as anything but town because of the fakehammer:
Why not look at his actual fucking scumhunting, which is the number one alignment indicative thing in the entirety of mafia? Because it hasn't been very fucking good. Go back, look at his reasons for scumreading Alchemist, and tell me they even begin to approach good.
I have found various aspects of BB's play town, which is why I have him at null. But people (Patrick, ETL) who are just saying blah blah emotion blah fakehammer need to look a little bit closer, for Christ's sake.
Your lack of nuance in your read on him really concerns me (To Patrick)
, which is precisely not what I want, because it's destroying my previously held townreads on you and, I think, making me think
Johnny is townier than he actually is.
Holy shit, Quil was threatening Patrick to "destroy previously held townreads" because of something as high level as "a lack of nuance in read". Johnny was right next door giving useless sparknotes summaries of the game.
In post 888, JohnnyFarrar wrote:Thaaaat's a hard question to answer. I would probably sa logical because my gut is wrong more often than not, though I've been known to be bad at ignoring it.
As to your tonal argument, it makes a bit of sense, but I entered this game knowing my slot was in trouble and my lynch would mean lylo, and on top of that I saw everyone screaming things like "my scumreads are PoE" and such, so that may have something to do with me nitpicking everyone to death.
Alch is pretty easy to defend in hindsight, but I genuinely have no idea how that whole day went by without anyone even coming close to a counter wagon.
My town -> Scum order:
Quil
Patrick
Mina
BB
Esp
BPC
My problem with BPC is lurking in a sense but it's more for the opportunistic time he lurked toward the end of the last day phase. Showing up and being all "yeah I'm down for a Alch lynch" and then taking no initiative beyond that looks like "I'm here but want no accountability" to me.
My townread of Quil is probably bigger than I even originally stated. What I said was something along the lines of "Mina has convinced me that Quil is town," but the more I think about it the less scum Quil makes sense. I don't particularly see scum going so hard at a newb townie day one, when he cracks it looks like genuine anger, and that semantic argument with Espy day one looked like quality "scum wouldn't keep this going" work.
You should've bussed this loser immediately because it's what you would have done as town. holy shit. even if he's the watch immune goon without the dead watcher. because you would get townpoints and the tracker wouldnt guilty you yet (although he can perform some cop clears.... a catch 22)
Where was your rigorous analysis of JohnnyFarrer? Let's find out your reason for why Johnny was town as of 898:
In post 872, Quilford wrote:Not a super big fan of the Johnny lynch, especially not until BPC gives us something.
Can you explain why (to the first part, not the last part)?
I like his assertive responses to my questions.
lmfao!
let's see what you would have fixed it with if he wasn't your precious watch immune goon without a dead watcher
- I don't like them because a lot of the analysis is either shallow or nonexistent.
- I don't like them because he's mainly giving summaries of the game without analysis.
- I don't like them because he's calling everybody scummy without very convincing reasons.
- I don't like them because I can't see his thought process clearly.
- All of it reads as bluster.
I've established motivation: Why bussing the watch-immune goon was highly unlikely prior to the identification of the Watcher
I've provided evidence: Quilford defending Johnny unnaturally which he would never have done according to his principles of townreading (The importance of analysis and thought process, johnny had shit)
I've established why other suspects are not likely: ETL was responsible for beginning the push onto JF; Mina followed up; Molla was eager to vote scum as well. Patrick was "obvtown" and also interacted with JF strongly in 904. Way more insightful than Quilford had ever show for it #825 and #827
In post 1099, Patrick wrote:Though the fact that so many spectators seem to suspect him is something I mentioned in my skypechat earlier today as well.
Wake up. WAKE UP.
This is the lull of Quil's in-thread strong play. Replacements and/or 3rd party observers are able to pierce the veil because they won't be as emotionally affected by Quil's charms.
In post 916, Mina wrote:7) JF, read on BBmolla. Explanation for why it's not a town read on BBmolla. Go!
My read is "This man ain't said anything useful, and now that he was so wrong on day one everyone's ok with him barely posting anything on day 2 because he's sad or something." I've seen nothing even close to content come from him (much less anything townie), and unlike Patrick he doesn't even seem to be playing to win.
Why is he town?
This is hilariously bad.
Why didn't Quilford call this out for bad thought process and poor analysis?
Their interactions were sketchy as fuck until Brian claimed watcher.
Really, it isn't rocket science.
How about everyone go back to a re-reading spree on Day 2 until Brian claimed watcher? With the knowledge that JF was scum.
It's pretty hard to read him when he's so openly come into the thread with an agenda. I think alot of his comments attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole to suit his view of the game: he's attacked Quilford over alot of things done by others as well. He's painted bbmolla as someone who was on Johnny's case and gone after Quilford for deflecting from a Johnny lynch, whereas I think anyone with an even slightly open-mind would read back and see that bbmolla was the standout deflector of that lynch.
bbmolla's replace out looked mildly town, but like I said, serrapaladin managed that to an extent and I think it's well within scum-range. It's even possible Metal Sonic told him to do it before leaving, given that he's come in and immediately pointed to it as making bbmolla obvobvotown.
I think he looks OK in his entry to the game. I think his case against Quilford is more noise than substance, but it's easy to believe him believing it. I'd still favour lynching ETL over him, and still favour lynching Metal Sonic after if an ETL lynch doesn't end of the game.
Metal Sonic wrote:Here's a really lame reason for why I should be towntowntown @Mina
Do you really think that I would replace into a scum slot for Molla just after tilting a scumgame?
CDB's reaction to this was along the lines of "fuck this shit" and this is one of the few posts from MS that gives me the creeps. Because it's completely obvious that your replace in was to improve your slots chances of winning. I can tell right now what the thinking was for each alignment:
Town slot - Metal Sonic is probably yelling at bbmolla to string up Quilford, and bbmolla is conflicted and almost paralysed with fear about the idea of even looking at this game. Metal Sonic offers to relieve bbmolla of the game and show us all that Quilford is literally the worst thing in the entire world.
Scum slot - bbmolla is in trouble, his emotional appeals and offers to be lynched aren't really getting him off the hook. Metal Sonic replaces in to fill the thread with posts and try to muddy the waters.
I realise I haven't said alot beyond the obvious, but I don't think his alignment is easy to discern from what he's posted in here. I disagree that being consistent in thought process is a town-sign, he made it very obvious what he's trying to do and so I'd expect him to be consistent. I did like where he asked ETL a few questions and asked Quilford about his reads on Mina/me, even if the last bit was mainly to try and find ammo against Quilford.
Only just saw it again, but this is borked:
Metal Sonic wrote:
Mina wrote:And JF did something where he townread Alchemist to high heavens but called everyone else scummy, so that's why I'm looking out for that kind of behaviour.
Exactly.
This is the quintessential reason why Molla's replace out was town.
Scum would have called everyone else scummy
Mina is talking about your own behaviour of just calling Alchemist obvobvtown because he's a publicly flipped protown player - this is what Johnny did as well. It's more annoying than alignment telling imo, but annoying it is. Again I don't like how you're using that as a reason to plug how obvobvtown bbmolla was in replacing out. I've played games as scum where I've struggled to invent any reasons to suspect town players, and bbmollas reasons on day 3 weren't exactly stellar.
Mina wrote:Patrick, can you summarize the zillion messages Fenchurch sent you?
Tens of thousands rather than zillions, but sure. The ETL/Quilford exchange was driving her mad, mainly on ETL's end. She started off thinking bbmolla might be a bit more likely than ETL because she thinks ETL plays weirdly as town as well, but by the end of her own stream of messages she decided ETL was more likely. I think Fenchurch sees elements of what she's done as scum herself in the past; when challenged, just repeating and reasserting her own positions as though there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with them. ETL's offers to be lynched gave her pause, but again I think she convinced herself of the opposite because ETL's lynch wouldn't lead to a Quilford lynch the following day, which means offering to be lynched doesn't make sense. CES also popped in after to say that he would also be lynching ETL right now. CDB I think has had more of a town read on her and would favour a Metal Sonic lynch.
Mina: your team seems to prefer an ETL lynch. What lynch do you prefer personally?
Primpod 11:13 pm
chamber can you please come to ukmeet
i would love to finally touch your face
It appears that in this game, you prize analysis and semantics. You prize deep thought process.
Somehow, you turn off the blinkers at Johnny and let him PASS with this BULL UTTER SHIT
You know which player I was pushing super hard who posted two cases that were all description and zero analysis? The player we lynched on Day 1, who flipped town.
In post 2019, Patrick wrote:I'd still favour lynching ETL over him, and still favour lynching Metal Sonic after if an ETL lynch doesn't end of the game.
You are running through a forest with a blindfold on.
MS is super duper town.
I have no desire to discuss anything further. Everyone dancing around lynching me and not just doing it. Please. I'm done with this. This is the last game I have right now. I'm sorry for sucking so fucking terribly. It's really a shame. I could have done so well I think.
oh yeah and sthar wrote a letter to quil that i am supposed to paraphrase and i have no idea how. it's beautiful.
basically:
you aren't as hot as you think you are, go fuck yourself. he said that quil doesn't have the right to give him a time table for anything unless it involves a blow job, money or both, considering that my entire team's lack of free time is public and sitewide. he said he was actively reading the game in the beginning and was scumreading quil because he was being a useless sack of shit and pushing LHF wagon and arguing irrelevant semantics, and then sthar was unable to keep up with it. he caught up and now thinks patrick is scum and quil has his head stuck far up his own ass. he doesn't like Patrick because he is trying to set up multiple lynches and assuming the game goes another day rather than ending today with the lynch of his supposed scumread. he thinks everyone townreading mina means she is probably town. he says it looks like quil and ms are "trying to win the game". He also says for quil to go sit on something sharp.
