Mini 1674: A Minimalist Text Adventure (Fire's Out)

[pieguyn]

FIRST

vote: notscience

[pieguyn]

VOTE: pieguyn

I like you. you can be town.

[pieguyn]

Y-YES! <3

[pieguyn]

i'm so happy ~ this is like a dream ~

[pieguyn]

How's everyone doing?

I am currently too overjoyed to answer this question. see: above post.

[pieguyn]

*stares into Soren's eyes*
*leans forward*

<3

[pieguyn]

blankface town, NM town, BBT maybe scum, AK scum

vote: AK

notsci PL is shit and I'll make sure it doesn't happen

[pieguyn]

notscience was my IC in my first newbie

he got replaced lol

also, I feel obligated to say: fuck that game. -.-

[pieguyn]

yes

[pieguyn]

also notsci isn't a lurker

I can 100% guarantee that any game where he winds up "lurking" is entirely a result of his RL going to shit and not his actual playstyle (in fact he's usually one of the more active players I know of). even if there weren't games where he *didn't* lurk - which, oh hey, there are - he factored this into account before joining this game

plus he's not going to flake on a Bins game

soooo

[pieguyn]

But you won

it was still probably the most traumatic game I think I've ever played. I can't believe I actually fucking got mislynched.

[pieguyn]

For now, the policy lynch is okay. But if that prevents BBT from scumhunting later on in day 1 then we have a problem.

the reason I dislike it is, put simply, it strikes me as the kind of thing BBT would do as scum and not the kind of thing he'd do as town

/meta'ing the player who hates meta

VOTE: Asher

interesting. what is the reasoning behind this?

[pieguyn]

and I'm one of the people who can 100%-read notsci, yes.

[pieguyn]

SO MANY POSTS HOLY FUCK

[pieguyn]

It's more to do with you making a soft defence of me when I don't think you have played enough with me to be able to say that.

AK needs to have played a fuckton of games with you to have a general idea of how you play? even if this was true (which it's not - I figured out how you generally play after so much as seeing one game where you were town and one where you were scum), you don't have to have experience with someone to defend them.

while I think AK might be scum (and probably not scum with you), it's not for that.

vote: BBT

[pieguyn]

Have I ever played with you?

also, to answer this more explicitly, I was in GotG2 as Walpurgisnacht even though I disappeared after D1. we have no completed games beyond that except I replaced you in the pokemon upick.

[pieguyn]

Forgive the new guy here, but what's the difference between meta and policy?

meta = how someone generally plays
policy = lynching someone based entirely on playstyle reasons, or being a liability when town, as opposed to how they're actually playing in the game

now, for you. you ask me if I think you're scum, but don't take any further interest beyond that in *why*?

[pieguyn]

He needs to have played more than one game, yes.

Especially a game where he was scum and would therefore not be paying much attention to working me out.

false. playing against someone's town game as scum is, in my experience, actually one of the best ways to figure them out - you know they're town and can better pick up on various patterns or idiosyncrasies in their town game as a result.

regardless of this, you don't have to have a *really* good idea of how someone plays to defend them. what exactly do you think is scummy there?

[pieguyn]

On the other reads: pie town, soren maybe town, everyone else is still null.

I'm glad to say I think you're town, too. why do you think Soren is town?

I think scum is voting me.

Discuss.

OK. then given AK isn't voting you, what are you doing to figure out who the scum on your wagon is?

@ASHER:

Forgive the new guy here, but what's the difference between meta and policy?

meta = how someone generally plays
policy = lynching someone based entirely on playstyle reasons, or being a liability when town, as opposed to how they're actually playing in the game

now, for you. you ask me if I think you're scum, but don't take any further interest beyond that in *why*?

[pieguyn]

His play asking questions about notty, seems to try to figure out where people's mindsets and motivations are.

I'm not quite as sure about it so far; I think most of what he's asked has been relatively fakeable (and there were some questions that actually reminded me of what he asked in his scum game that weren't about anything particularly relevant), but I agree that some of his questions look kinda town, if I squint.

I'm also kind of wondering about his jump on BBT, but that's for later.

him marrying me is quite clearly the better reason to town read him here

(also I know you're trying out a new play style here so if I'm doing anything to get in your way lmk and I'll attempt to drop it)

The buddying in this thread is making me feel sick.

you mad because town has been finding each other early game and you're left out of it?

[pieguyn]

@ASHER:

Forgive the new guy here, but what's the difference between meta and policy?

meta = how someone generally plays
policy = lynching someone based entirely on playstyle reasons, or being a liability when town, as opposed to how they're actually playing in the game

now, for you. you ask me if I think you're scum, but don't take any further interest beyond that in *why*?

Forgive the new guy here, but what's the difference between meta and policy?

meta = how someone generally plays
policy = lynching someone based entirely on playstyle reasons, or being a liability when town, as opposed to how they're actually playing in the game

now, for you. you ask me if I think you're scum, but don't take any further interest beyond that in *why*?

Forgive the new guy here, but what's the difference between meta and policy?

meta = how someone generally plays
policy = lynching someone based entirely on playstyle reasons, or being a liability when town, as opposed to how they're actually playing in the game

now, for you. you ask me if I think you're scum, but don't take any further interest beyond that in *why*?

Forgive the new guy here, but what's the difference between meta and policy?

meta = how someone generally plays
policy = lynching someone based entirely on playstyle reasons, or being a liability when town, as opposed to how they're actually playing in the game

now, for you. you ask me if I think you're scum, but don't take any further interest beyond that in *why*?

[pieguyn]

for clarity, there's a question at the end of that post

p-edit: SO MANY P-EDITS

[pieguyn]

@pieguyn

It's D1, <2hours in. No one knows shit yet and I'm curious to see what you're thinking. Never played with you, have to learn about people somehow.

yes, but if you're curious to know about whether or not I'm scum reading you, you should naturally be curious as to *why*.

you ask if I'm scum reading you. I say "yes" and don't explain the reason. you proceed to drop said line of questioning at that point.

so what was the purpose of the line of questioning? what alignment-relevant information were you hoping to gain just from knowing *if* I was scum reading you or not without regard to my actual reasoning behind it?

I would expect a town player to not drop it so easily and without anything gained from it. what you did felt more like you were just asking throwaway questions for the sake of it without actually attempting to sort me.

[pieguyn]

ITT Bins is sitting here CTRL+F5'ing so that she can get a pagetop within ten seconds of the previous post.

(<3)

<3 ~ mod

[pieguyn]

is it weird that I didn't even know today was Saturday? ._.//

I'm not even making this up, I thought it was Friday this whole time for some reason. god, my sleep schedule is so fucked recently

[pieguyn]

For starters, one question is not a line of questioning. You're expecting follow-up. I am curious as to why, doesn't mean I plan on immediately asking it.

what is the point in deliberately withholding asking the question? why wouldn't it be better to go ahead and have that information put on the table?

what was the intent of your original question if it *wasn't* to sort me? bc I still say if you were wanted to sort me here, you wouldn't just drop this (and yes, one question is a line of questioning).

I don't think I've been dismissing anything, I think I've currently responded to everything, and I am still confused.

strictly speaking, you hadn't addressed my original post 149, but your other post suffices as a response for it. I still want to know exactly what you were hoping to get from knowing if I was scum reading you without knowing what my actual reasoning was.

[pieguyn]

hi RC :>

[pieguyn]

I think I had 9 messages before you scum read me, so it's not like there's much to go on. Similarly, I don't have much to defend myself with from what I had previously said. So in the end it's a lot of time and a lot of posts.

yes, that's exactly the point

there wasn't much to go on. so you didn't stop to think, "huh, this guy is scum reading me based on 9 posts? why exactly would someone be scum reading me here"?

this is even more so the case when you're already suspicious of my scum read on you (as indicated by you bringing it up) - in which case you should specifically want more information on where my scum read on you comes from. it feels like your mindset here is faked

if you didn't see any reason to sort me based on me scum reading you, what was the point in mentioning it?

[pieguyn]

Is there a reason you haven't voted Asher yet Pie?

I don't really know which of {you, Asher} I'd rather vote at this point. is there any specific reason you're asking me this?

Confirmation.

:/
what was the point of confirming whether I was scum reading you or not when it doesn't look like you've factored it in anywhere? and (again) what was there to be gained by me withholding that information at that point in the game if you were considering asking me about it later anyway?

meh.

[pieguyn]

@pieguyn

It's D1, <2hours in. No one knows shit yet and I'm curious to see what you're thinking. Never played with you, have to learn about people somehow.

and this is also inconsistent with this

you're curious to see what I'm thinking, asked me to confirm *if* I was scum reading you or not, then weren't curious as to why or didn't think you'd learn anything by asking why?

[pieguyn]

Something here doesn't add up.

Unvote
Vote: pieguyn

wat

[pieguyn]

the shit?

essentially, I think both Asher and BBT are scum, but don't think they're aligned. what don't you like about said statement?

[pieguyn]

For you, Pie.

see: above post

I still don't think anything you've done so far is town. while I haven't found your recent posts particularly scummy, either, suggesting a policy on notsci is still sufficient cause for a scum read - this is even more so the case when you immediately back off it and go to push Asher (who *if* town is the next easiest target here) when it becomes obvious you don't have any ground to stand on. it looked more like you thought suggesting to PL notsci was a good way to enter the thread in order to look town and then gave up when you realized how bad it was making you look - I wouldn't expect you'd give up on it so quickly if you were town and legitimately wanted notsci PL'ed

I think Asher is scum for reasons already explained, but based on the above paragraph, I don't really think both of you are scum with each other based on the way you shifted on to him.

See you omitted something like this before.
I figured if you thought both are scum the sheer ammount of numbers would indicate that it'd be easier to help BBT bus his partner.

do you disagree with my stated reasoning above?

In other regards, it's kinda silly to figure out who's aligned with who at this point, and you've been questioning AK a lot, yet kept your vote on BBT.

I'm pretty sure you remember this isn't a thing for me? I question people who I'm not voting without moving my vote relatively often.

I agree it doesn't really mean much to rule 2 people out as scum with each other this early in the game, but if I see smth that's indicative of that, I'm not going to ignore it.

[pieguyn]

What do you mean by they're not aligned?

not scum together

[pieguyn]

Suggesting a PL is one sure fire way of NOT getting town read. I find it strange you think suggesting PL's is a townie thing to do.

disagree. I consider it a fairly easy way to look town-ish in some people's eyes - as in, along the lines of "xxx is genuinely frustrated that yyy won't do shit and wants to get rid of them", "xxx is putting themselves out there early and trying to drive the game forward which is such a town thing to do", etc., without actually requiring any legitimate effort to do anything.

the latter part is where my issue lies.

[pieguyn]

Considering i've been pushing the interactions as busing, yes.

remind me why you think this? I couldn't find it anywhere.

I'm pretty sure i don't pay attention to your town games when i'm scum (which is pretty much the latest 2 games we've played together), and last thing i remember about you is that you scum used to be more laid back and town you more aggresive, and you've been trying to break that meta for months, while i dont find it unreasonable for you to do this.

either way, questioning the person I'm not voting is fairly typical for me when I don't have reason to stop thinking someone is scum but want to question someone else simultaneously. it is pointless to focus entirely on one person at a time

if you really don't remember, I'm fairly sure I can link a town game where I did this and you called me scum for it

You haven't not only questioned AK, but you've also been saying "Youre scum because X" without interacting much with BBT if at all, until your most recent posts, despite BBT asking you to move your vote to the person who you seemed to without a shadow of doubt, be scumreading. At least the tone in your posts indicated as such.

the obvious conclusion here is what I said: that I think both are scum but unsure which of them is more likely scum

I'm not (and never was) particularly sure of Asher scum - I can't tell if what I pointed out means anything or if I'm just reading way too much into it. and I don't really have a problem with his explanation, either.

I'm not sure where in my posts you're getting that I was confident on him being scum. and while my early posts towards BBT were only half-serious, I was serious when I said that him suggesting a PL was something I think he'd be more likely to do as scum.

[pieguyn]

Also i have another reason for my scumread on you but i'll save it up for later, since it's not something i can guarantee 100% town you wouldn't do.

if this is what I think it is, I did it in hope + 1

if not, meh. it doesn't matter either way

[pieguyn]

blankface is town as shit, Sakura is town as shit, Soren is town, Asher might also be town

the scum reads on Soren are misguided. people are correct that asking a bunch of pointless questions without committing to any firm stances is what he does as scum. however, this isn't what he is doing here. first off, he is taking stances and making pushes in this game (359 I think is the strongest one, but it is definitely not the only one, but there are several more) - and second, I disagree that the questions he's asking are pointless. for comparison, here are the types of questions he asked in his *scum* game (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=60450):

Spoiler:

How many games have you played in the other site?
Did you play as mafia in any of them?
Well for starters, after Blonde's post acknowledging me in the game, you immediately knew that we played together already? And you said you couldn't get the other site to load? I don't see Blonde linking you a site?
Did you win as mafia?
What do people mean by meta?
I thought it was always better to go for a lynch on day 1?

these are examples, but this is essentially what he did all game. there is, quite, literally, no attempt to extract information or divine alignments there, it was primarily about stuff unrelated to the game.

if you so much as read his ISO in this game, it's night and day to what he's doing here. none of the questions he's asked here have been 100% amazing, but they are relevant to the game.

I am somewhat paranoid of the way NM is claiming this game is likely multiball. in TS UPick (the game where he did this before), I town read him explicitly because I had never seen scum openly claim it was multiball and justify it with something like "I don't have any reads". I think he might have done this as an explicit attempt to draw parallels to that game and hopefully get ppl who had seen it before to town read him for it. this isn't particularly strong basis for a read, but regardless.

I dislike several things about BBT's most recent catchup. notsci's reads are weird as hell. he's scum reading both Soren and BBT, which doesn't really make sense and was done in a position where Soren and BBT are the main wagons. the Sakura scum read is also baffling. more elaboration on these/responses to questions incoming.

[pieguyn]

vote: notscience

[pieguyn]

83 - Just wanna expand on this further. Asher has played exactly one game with me, this game started way back in August.

For him to come out with a comment on 'that's just how he is' it just doesn't sit right with me. I don't feel like he can judge my personality from one game.

still disagree with this. as I said before, it's fairly easy to make judgements about someone's personality after playing with them even if you've only played with them once.

I don't think Asher saying this is out of the ordinary, and it's a really weak reason to push him as scum. does scum Asher have anything to gain by making that statement? if he supposedly doesn't know how you play, how would he have enough knowledge of your play to say that regardless of what his alignment is?

I also noticed Pie that you didn't actually explain why you were voting for me in this post. Can you do so now?

the same reasoning as I had before - the way you pushed the notsci PL. I switched bc you had a wagon on you and Asher didn't ~

PEdit - Almost everyone? 2 people disagreed - Pie and Mala. You also showed doubt about the PL when you stated if it prevented me from scum hunting you would have a problem with me. That was clear posturing on your part.

this isn't really what I would consider posturing, and even if it was, it's not scum motivated.

what Soren is saying here is that if you don't scum hunt, he would find it scummy. this is a perfectly natural thought to have: he thinks that you pushing a PL is null, but that it would be scummy if it was accompanied with a lack of scum hunting (as in this case, it would be coming from scum using it to hide).

what he's saying here essentially amounts to saying not scumhunting is scummy and that he'd be willing to vote for you if there was evidence that indicated you were doing that. what is incorrect about this? I don't particularly think it's correct to call something "posturing" unless there's a strategic advantage to be gained from it - aka scum attempting to lock people out of doing certain actions. writing it off as posturing feels more like an easy way to discredit his scum read on you.

168 - Noted that Bulge tried to continue RVS despite there being plenty of information/content to work with.

don't like this, either. calling people out for RVS voting after RVS is an easy excuse for scum to pull up in order to look like they're scum hunting.

Spoiler: Soren's pointless questions

That isn't even all of them. There's more.

it's been said, but this post is a huge exaggeration. a lot of the questions you point out here are actually game-relevant, ex 179 where Soren asks about the Bulge scum reads

do you disagree with my stated reasoning in my previous post? (don't say "lol meta" or I will fucking eat you; even if you ignore that he always gets scum read for this when in actuality his scum play is rather different, it's not hard to judge this based on his play in this particular game.)

[pieguyn]

why are you rvsing when youve given comments about game related things

same comment about RVS; what is the scum intent in trying to "prolong rvs" or whatever?

soren are you asking pointless questions that dont really advance the gamestate any

as said before, calling Soren scum for "weak questions" is a very weak stance to take. what do you think about my reasoning for town reading Soren?

actually, looking at it from the top, this post in general makes me look sideways at it every time I read it. I think most of the pushes here are somewhat weak - ex. calling Soren out for asking pointless questions without explaining why he thinks this, or making a weak push on BBT which amounted to "why is weak reasoning scummy" and "this reaction to his wagon is bad" (again without explaining why he thinks this). in general, most of the pushes here feel half-formed and not like they had a lot of thought put into them.

Vote: BBT

notty is one of the most easy to read players on the site, this policy is bollocks, You are scum.

I still don't understand this vote. The big thing for me is that she makes it a matter of reading me, but that was never an issue introduced in the policy lynch concept. She acts like this refutes the idea but ultimately it doesn't, which is mindboggling.

this is incredibly weak reasoning for scum reading Sakura.

you could probably imagine that Sakura's impression of your play is that you're generally very active. so, what would you expect her to do here?

this is her thinking that you're universally recognized as an active player and thus, since BBT is ignoring this, that he's BS'ing here. what doesn't make sense here? do you think Sakura would be aware of how your play has been a lot less active recently?

I find it somewhat difficult to believe you thought this about this post. this was, in fact, one of the reasons I was able to form a solid town read on her early in the game.

I don't really know why this matters yet, but I'm thinking about it.

I was only half-serious about that. as I alluded to before, most of my posts to BBT weren't fully serious.

p-edit:

Is RVSing after RVS not a valid thing to point out? As "eqsy" as it may be?

no, it isn't. there is usually as much town intent in it as scum intent. are you claiming you see it come from scum more often than town?

[pieguyn]

It's something on the tone of your posts.

you are misreading my tone, then

Also why is BBT calling out for a PL on notty during RVS more likely to make him scum, than him calling out that there's scum in his wagon and not doing anything to find it?, in your latest posts you've focused quite a bit on that PL, and you never mentioned this other issue again, also why is that more scummy than the reason for your scumread on AK?

I didn't mind his explanation for how he reacted to his wagon. I buy that he would have thought scum were capitalizing on the early shitstorm with him, and that he found it difficult to distinguish town vs. scum votes given it's a fucking RVS wagon.

it's really not? I don't really care. I thought AK was more likely scum at first, I just voted BBT bc he was being wagoned. after that I stopped being as sure on AK scum.

[pieguyn]

I'm kinda curious about why Pie's flat out ignoring me.

It's making me question ~stuff~

notty can Pie have actually rolled scum this game!?!?!

uh

where did I ignore you? what do you want to talk about?

[pieguyn]

oo, page top

[pieguyn]

I don't particularly recall off the top of my head but I'd still say pointing out and questioning uselss votes as scummy is valid. If anything pointing out people using wiki scumtells like that and calling it "easy" is just as "easy" as someone using them

usually I think nitpicking on votes is more likely to come from scum than town - this, of course, includes calling out "RVS" votes in "non-RVS"

it doesn't change the fact town does it, but from what I've seen, it's more likely than average (keep in mind average for scum is 25%) to come from scum

[pieguyn]

I'm not scumreading bbt, pie.

can you address my post? the part about the Soren/Sakura scum reads in particular.

Blank, you should join the Soren wagon.

^same. I think you're scum in a vacuum, but I don't feel sure about it and would like to hear your explanation for what I'm pointing out.

[pieguyn]

Trying to predict my behavior, also getting emotional about the policy lynch on NS. Maybe it works to expect behavior from an experienced town player, but again, second game here. Tunneled way too hard on my one question, and expected more. Not sure about her scum read on BBT but still tunnels on that too in 420. I think she was trying too hard to tunnel in on me or BBT which I have to agree with ns and blankface is going for the low-hanging fruit. She seems determined to go for someone at least, which seems off. In any case, I think she's the most likelyscum.

o geez. we're really not going to get along, are we

[pieguyn]

Nah, your conf bias is boring me and I'd rather not deal with it.

[pieguyn]

I literally just fucking told you I don't really feel strongly about you being scum and that I'd be open to alternate explanations if you provided them. what the fuck about that is "confbias"?

[pieguyn]

except I'm not?

if you say that's what I'm doing, then as I said, actually *show* me where I'm doing this and I'll reevaluate

and making long posts detailing why someone is scum is actually fairly standard for me. I play by making cases. just bc I make a case on someone does not mean that I'm "confbiasing" or that I'm not open to potential alternate explanations for what I'm pointing out. you brick-walling like this is, put simply, fucking annoying and gives me nothing to work with to figure it out *if* I'm wrong here.

[pieguyn]

:/

I honestly don't mind playing with you (the last game I was just insulting you all game bc I was scum and thought it'd be hilarious to endgame you as an IC), nor do I think you're a weak player per se (just that you tend not to be receptive of the possibility you're wrong, which is great if you have accurate reads but frustrating as hell when you don't - and to be fair, my memory of your town game before our last game was you correctly JK'ing scum who was widely town read putting town in a position to win). while I can't speak for everyone here, I'd be sad to see you leave the game.

[pieguyn]

Weak sauce.

AtE. Scummy.

no

it is null at absolute worst

[pieguyn]

bbt obvious scum cos scum love trolling rc

\o\ /o/

[pieguyn]

o also, I don't really see where the town reads on Huntress are coming from. can someone walk me through it?

[pieguyn]

Her points for Soren scum are pretty good.

don't really agree with this. the only point there I think potentially holds any water is this one:

81 and 84, I can't believe you really thought BBT was saying he could make the scum nk so these posts don't make sense and look like you were just trying to find things against him. I actually thought you were joking when I read 84 but the vote in 86 implies you weren't.

but that by itself really isn't strong enough to make me scum read him. the rest are points that I don't particularly think are scummy - for example, I think she is misinterpreting what Soren is saying about notsci having to be replaced. if you look at what actually happened in the game, Soren willfully replaced out bc he claimed his RL was busy (then came back later and said he would have been fine if he stayed in the game), whereas notsci had flaked for a large portion of D2. when Soren was in the game he was fairly active, and he was clearly mindful of how lurking would harm the game. so calling Soren out for hypocrisy there is incorrect

it's essentially the same as what I've been saying this whole time: Soren's questions/what he's been saying in general so far this game haven't actually been pointless. so, meh.

[pieguyn]

But this fluffposting is Soren's town-game as well. Nothing else has pinged me about him so far, so he's just a null at this point.

have you seen Soren's scum game?

bc his play here sure as hell isn't it

[pieguyn]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=60450

it's pretty much night and day to here, for reasons outlined in 418. I can elaborate further if it's necessary.

[pieguyn]

Re sakura- she's played with me recently and she saw my activity levels being low in 182 and corpse party. So yes, she should know. And you avoided my key point. If she knows I'm very active, why not just comment on it? She avoids it altogether and it reads as strange. The sudden dismissal bugged me.

except I don't think what she did was "avoiding it"

it's as I said. she addressed it when she told BBT you were one of the easiest ppl to read and claimed he was BS'ing there. it was essentially her saying BBT's assessment of you was incorrect, and that since everyone should know you're an active player him pushing it was BS

I don't really think she thought to specifically mention that you're an extremely active player when keeping this in mind. and I think we both agree that 182/corpse party were outliers in terms of your activity level - you usually don't play like that and only did so bc your RL went to shit (and I remember you being fairly active D1 of corpse party at the very least).

I'd also like if you could address my Soren read. cos I'm pretty fucking sure what you're pushing there is incorrect and I really don't know why you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact this isn't his scum game (this is even more so the case that now that I think about it, you were in the game I linked where he was scum).

[pieguyn]

The only one who looks town on it is Pie because unlike the rest of you, she's actually TRYING to get a read on me.

Pie's stance on me is curious because she leaves open the route for me to talk out of it whereas I feel like scum pie would try and trap me into whatever I was saying and make me condemn myself. That being said, I'm not sure I trust her+sakura suddenly misreading me

And what happens when pie comes in here and 180's her read on me? You going to stick to this read based on /her/ thoughts or are you going to act like you have an original thought regarding me? For someone insanely good at reading me it sure is interesting that you are just sheeping someone else's read on me.

also, while I'm aware I've never missed your town game in several games, this progression is weirding me the fuck out.

it almost feels like you're setting up to push me as scum in advance if I come in here and continue scum reading you - as in establishing a status quo that there is no possible way I'd miss your town game as town, and thus being able to pull this up to discredit me whenever I push you as scum. this is a fairly textbook scum play when attempting to make someone pushing you look worse than you.

[pieguyn]

@Mala:

walk me through why Huntress is town?

[pieguyn]

And more importantly having his vote still on me instead of pie or sakura doesn't really fit with what he's thinking.

to be fair, you are saying this while not having your vote on notsci

while I think notsci is scum, it's not for this

[pieguyn]

im on phone and what in the holy fuck just happened

[pieguyn]

Tell you what

Lets wait until pie and mala get in here

And lets see if they agree, that it was fucking impossible for me to not have an emotional response to that post as either alignment

/confirm

[pieguyn]

at the same time, @notsci, it should really be obvious Sakura is as conftown as an IC for this

ugh. will think about this more when I get back home

[pieguyn]

I'm here.

Sakura is never getting lynched this game. Her most recent posting, put simply, just does not come from scum her.

It all comes down to one principle:

Sakura is not emotionally manipulative as scum.

The extent of direct manipulation in her scum game does not come anywhere close to what it would have been if she is scum here - when scum, she usually relies on looking town via other means, such as feigning scum hunting well or playing to her town meta. The only real manipulation in her scum game is based on weak ATE (in the last scum game, she spent a lot of time upplaying the idea that she hadn't played town in a while and was lost as a result of that) and positionality (simple buddying).

Ergo, Sakura would not attempt to use "I'll never talk to you again if you're town here" as a reaction test as scum.

She just fucking wouldn't. She wouldn't so much as pretend to bring that much of an outside influence - her friendship with notsci - into the game. And yes, you can say "lol reaction test", but that doesn't change shit. She would not so much as pretend to hurt notsci in the way she did here as scum.

And yes, you can tell I'm serious about this when I'm using capital letters. We all know that's the best way to tell when I'm serious about a post. But anyway:

I probably know Sakura better than anyone else on this site - and I am fully expecting a certain person to walk in here and reference a certain Touhou game where I horribly misread scum-her and defended her all game, but the thing with that game is, I was not actually as confident with my read on her as I usually am when town reading her. Sakura is a player who is similar to fferyllt, as in, from time to time, she will make a post that can only possibly come from town-her and that scum-her would never be able to make. This allows people to be able to say, with >99% certainty, that she is town whenever this happens. In the large theme game, my read on her was not quite at that level - only about 90% or so, and she sure as hell did not make any strong "conf-town" posts over the course of that game. (And, quite honestly, you can see me calling her-scum in the mason QT in that game right before I died, so attempting to discredit me based on that game would be a load of shit.)

This game isn't that. She is, absolutely, town here. I would probably quite literally quit this game entirely if she wound up being scum* here. (*And just for posterity's sake, since we all know how dishonorable it is to make bets and not hold yourself to them, this only really applies towards her being group-scum in a single-scum setting, because fuck SKs/multiball.)

I have not yet determined if this means anything in terms of notsci's alignment - I just got back home - but regardless, I agree this situation needs a fucking emergency brake, and immediately.

[pieguyn]

vote: BBT

[pieguyn]

VOTE: SAKURA

This is a terrible vote. I understand that you're likely frustrated because of how she treated notsci here (or, if scum, you're pretending to be and likely using it to buddy notsci as a result), but for reasons explained in the previous post the way she did it is a town tell, not a scum tell.

Ask yourself: What does Sakura-scum explicitly have to gain by doing this? Why do you think this *wouldn't* come from Sakura-town, who likely has conviction that notsci as scum and would do anything to demonstrate he's full of shit here? Why do you think Sakura would pull something like this when she is an emotional player as town and distinctly not emotional as scum?

The key point here is that you shouldn't get caught up in emotional thinking in situations like this and instead analyze the situation objectively.

Please reconsider.

[pieguyn]

I'd also like to ask Sakura to please, please, just step back a bit.

I get that you think notsci is scum - and God knows I don't want to interfere too much here because I know you're trying out a new playstyle in response to several games where you correctly push scum and people derail it - but this situation is really, really out of the ordinary.

Even if notsci is scum, there are 2 other scum to find - and we don't have to lynch notsci right at this very second. So I don't really think continuing to push notsci here will be a very efficient course of action. I feel pretty strongly that, *if* notsci is scum here, it will show in his future play. And when that happens, I'm more than willing to push the fuck out of it *when* it does happen. He's not going to fall apart at the start of the game and then play an absolutely flawless scum game from there on out.

It's times like these when it is really worth thinking about alternate possibilities, regardless of your read on him. In my opinion - and I've learned this the hard way - it's always worth giving people room when they're clearly emotionally frustrated with the game.

As I said, I hate to say this in this situation, and feel free to just disregard this post entirely if you wish. It is not meant as an attack on you or the way you're playing this game. But I think - and this is just my opinion, and as I said don't feel like you're any obligation to follow it. I want to make this clear - that the better course of action here is to reconsider.

[pieguyn]

Because if notscience really thought i was scum he would have voted me.
Specially after he decided to carelessly continue pushing me as scum after the reaction test. He obviously had nothing to worry about.

Or he's careless because he's angry because you keep pushing him. This isn't some crazy strategy, this is him getting angry which is a normal reaction.

^ This.

I don't even think it's a normal *town* reaction; it's normal regardless of what his alignment here is.

I am 99% sure that, *if* notsci is scum here, he will continue to drop scum tells over the course of this game. As I said, he won't just start playing a flawless scum game in response to this.

I'm not even saying you're wrong here. I just think this is painful to even watch, let alone have happen to you, and think that it would be as easy to read him in a situation where he's not emotionally being pushed past his limit.

But, whatever. Last call I make for this for real this time before I stop posting about this.

[pieguyn]

Although, fwiw, I might agree with you on Mala. I don't really believe town-her actually scum reads you here or that she thinks this looks like your scum game. I also don't really like that she just dropped a vote and appeared not to have, or at least lay out, any reasoning behind it. It felt to me more like she was attempting to buddy up to/protect notsci here.

p-edit: @Sakura

[pieguyn]

This isn't a healthy gamestate.

We're going to have to lynch me today because if sakura nad I stick around for too long this game will head the way tales did.

I agree this isn't a healthy gamestate. I don't really support lynching you just so it stops, though - although this is more based on personal policy than anything game-related.

I don't really believe town-her actually scum reads you here or that she thinks this looks like your scum game. I also don't really like that she just dropped a vote and appeared not to have, or at least lay out, any reasoning behind it. It felt to me more like she was attempting to buddy up to/protect notsci here.

Yeah that's what i was thinking too, and found it odd that it happened right after you called me an IC.
At first i thought she wanted to go along and lynch me as I was asking, but I was asking notscience to lynch me (And fun fact is that notscience never dropped his scumread and is still going on about it after the fact, which is why i think he's scum).

I'm trying to figure out if it makes more sense with notsci/Mala as partners or notsci-town Mala-scum. While I suppose it could go either way, it's the kind of thing I'd generally expect more from scum buddying town as opposed to scum protecting a partner.

I'm assuming you think this would be with both notsci/Mala as scum?

[pieguyn]

O, about the Soren reads, I'm just going to pull the "100%-accuracy" card and say that this is his town game. I'll give specific responses to posts later, but I can say I've been through this exact same thing the last game I had with him where I also defended him as town.

[pieguyn]

If you think notscience could be town and mala could be buddying him in either scenario wouldn't it be better to just lynch mala?

Yes.

I still haven't reread any of the latest posts in depth, but at this point I'd support a Mala lynch.

[pieguyn]

@ Pieguyn:

Re: 418 - Are you saying that because Soren is playing better than he did in what was effectively his first game here, and not asking newbie questions, that he can't be scum?

no. I'm saying that the assessment that he's asking pointless questions here is incorrect, and thus that scum reads on him for it are misguided. the meta merely serves as an example of what I'm talking about here.

Soren wasn't one of the main wagons at the time. In fact it was NS that put the first vote on.

fair point.

[pieguyn]

How do you know that there's three scum?

And I think I asked you before as to how you know that this is multiball, I don't think you answered though.

3 scum is normal for a 13p setup

I don't believe I said it was multiball?

[pieguyn]

One of SAKURA/pie is scum. Learning on the former.

sakura still isn't scum

explain *why* you think she's scum

[pieguyn]

also, legit dunno why people are having issues with Asher's reaction to this whole thing

I thought it looked somewhat town. can someone walk me through it?

[pieguyn]

removed post meant for another game ~ mod

[pieguyn]

FUCK THAT WAS THE WRONG GAME

@MOD: HELP

[pieguyn]

420 - Pie, why did Soren not make their comment about making sure I scum hunt when I'm pushing for a PL before Mala/Pie contributed to the game? Why did they wait until someone had expressed discontent with my push on NS before stating these things?

to be fair, I think this was directly *in response* to people stating discontent with the NS PL

I'll wait until you finish catching up before responding to the rest.

[pieguyn]

PEdit - @Pie, so? If it was something Soren thought could be a problem, he should have mentioned it as soon as he sheeped me, no?

he probably didn't think about it until the subject came up

that's kind of the point of discussion. I don't think it's unreasonable.

[pieguyn]

you're aware that was about Mala and not Sakura, right

[pieguyn]

I've laid out a perfectly fine case thrice already, Blank went like "Oh yeah i'll look at it... over... time", BBT isnt even caught up, pie, notscience, you, everyone else have just flat out ignored it instead of going "Oh yeah you're right" or "Oh no, you're wrong because X". No one has said absolutely anything about it, and how do people expect me to find scum, if people dont even have the decency to at least address my cases. It has the bonus that the mala case doesn't even have any meta involved.

uh

I remember us talking about Mala and me saying I agreed with the scum read there? if you made another case since then, I likely haven't had any time/energy to look at it

[pieguyn]

I see. I took it that you were giving that game as an example of his scum meta. If you weren't then why bring it up at all? I agree with you that his questions weren't pointless by the way.

it was, but it's not my main point

it only served as an example of the kinds of questions he previously asked when scum. you could argue that he would play it differently to that game if he was scum here, but regardless, the point is that the questions he's asking *in this game* aren't pointless

[pieguyn]

Ok I lied, im not gonna lurk.
But mala's vote on me when i was attacking notty reeks of chainsaw.
Also specially after pie said i was as conftown as an IC.
And her read list says that only one of me/pie is scum.
If i'm scum shouldn't she be trying to respond to pie's town case on me to show him that he's wrong instead of saying "LOL IM NOT GETTING LYNCHED", She's defending from me more instead of trying to get me lynched.
Most likely she just plans on lynching pie after i flip town.

as I said, I don't really think it's more likely to be a chainsaw as opposed to Mala-scum buddying notsci-town

either way, yes, her blatantly ignoring me explaining why you're town here is a large part of why I hate her recent play. I don't get the impression she actually cares about sorting you here. the other thing I don't like is that she still hasn't explained *why*, specifically, she thinks you're scum despite me asking her like 2 or 3 times

Like i know for sure that pie would have a townread on me now, because of obvious stuff that i would never do as scum (or so he says), but the initial townread based on my first post is still kinda "wtf" after the last 2 scumgames i had (where in the first i snowed him, and in the second he showed lots of caution to declare a townread on me), this doesn't seem right.

it was a town post. /shrug

I also think you're overestimating the degree of town read I had on you by about 200%. I thought you were town, but I wasn't ridiculously sure about it at that point.

and yes, I'm open to a Mala lynch, but at this point I want to lynch BBT more

(also the last part is incorrect. you'll remember that I correctly scum read you almost immediately in that game and only backed off bc I had a really really big scum read on Sky and didn't think you were aligned. I was also the reason notsci vig'd you N1.)

[pieguyn]

I think that this post was town

there is literally nothing town about that post

there's this thing called ACTUALLY EXPLAINING WHY YOU THINK SOMEONE IS SCUM, or EXPLAINING WHY YOU DISAGREE WITH THE REASONING SOMEONE IS TOWN, that you actually do when you're town - especially when asked to on several occasions. but rather than doing that, she draws attention to the fact she was about to quit mafia and tries to make notsci feel like shit for wagoning her (while again avoiding giving an explanation on *why* notsci's reasons are actually shit here).

so tell me what is town about this thought process.

[pieguyn]

Is this something Mala would do as scum?

yes

it's easy to be genuine about outside circumstances as scum. her wanting to quit isn't scummy - it's the fact she was specifically focusing on this without actually scum hunting

[pieguyn]

Kudos to pie for completely dodging my points against mala and going "AH well i'll still vote BBT despite me mentioning mala's scum for like the last few posts and deciding to ignore sakura's vote on her despite me mentioning that i'd wagon mala too".

WTF. I do not believe I have dodged any of your points. you wanted me to comment on what I agreed/disagreed with, and I did: I don't think Mala's vote looks like a chainsaw, but I agree with the rest of what you're saying about her.

and yes, I think Mala is scum.

I also think BBT is scum.

you don't have to vote whoever you're calling scum in the last few posts - you vote your strongest scum read, or use your vote for strategic reasons, etc. *IF* it gets to the point where I don't think BBT is scum anymore, or if the wagon on him dies down, I'm more than fine with voting Mala. (and to be honest, you calling me scum while simultaneously asking for my vote is and, while I suppose there's no logical reason for it, really does not do a good job of convincing me you're willing to work with me here.)

we still have what, 9 days left? you can't just assume people are ignoring you because they all haven't dropped what they're doing and voted whoever you're voting. there is still plenty of time for people to make up their minds and consolidate. and I think it's pretty obvious that Mala is a viable lynch right now: you have 2 votes - plus mine if BBT doesn't pan out - and no one else has more than 3 votes. and most of the people in the game are pretty obviously considering Mala-scum. and I'm sorry but blaming *me* for this is out of line.

I know it can be ridiculously frustrating to try and get someone lynched and not get anywhere with it. but all things considered, you're doing fine. the only thing to really do in situations like this is step back and analyze the situation objectively - calm down, and continue moving forward.

[pieguyn]

i have a bunch of thoughts that i want to just spill out all over the thread, but i can't find the right words for them

[pieguyn]

what i want to say isn't mean per se

i just think sakura has fallen victim to the same misconception that happened to me about a year ago - when i first started learning how to strong arm lynches - and have no idea how to explain it in words

[pieguyn]

........ :/

[pieguyn]

vote: Mala

I'm not around rn but I will be later.

[pieguyn]

in memory of sakura 2015

[pieguyn]

if Mala flips scum here, this will likely be the worst feeling scum lynch I think I've ever been - or will ever be - a part of

[pieguyn]

huh

when I get home I need to check some things. although I will say if this *is* multiball, I am going to be extremely mad at Bins for putting multiball in a fucking nornal game -.-

/phone

[pieguyn]

So who would want to kill cho?

this is what I'm trying to figure out

what has me really fucking worried is that it didn't look like anyone in this game was scum reading Cho, period. if you look at everyone's reads, not one person was expressing a significant amount of suspicion on Cho near the end of the day, which means it doesn't make sense for him to have been a vig shot

for entirely selfish reasons, I would want a potential vig to claim here to clear up any confusion about the setup. although this is entirely because multiball would drastically affect how I would want to be reading people, and confirming singleball would be useful so that we don't have to worry about this shit anymore

it's likely not the theoretically correct play, though

[pieguyn]

obviously if someone *was*, I'd keep silent about this- but nope

[pieguyn]

(LYNCH)

Malakittens

-

Sakura Hana

, RadiantCowbells, The Bulge, Asher Kendrell,

pieguyn

, Not_Mafia, BlueBloodedToffee

I'm coloring Sakura-slot green despite not being flipped bc fuck you there's no way in hell she could possibly be scum here even if it does turn out to be multiball. either way, I think lynching from someone on the Mala wagon would be a good lead for now. regardless of whether this is singleball or multiball, I would expect scum would capitalize on the shitstorm that was going on there.

notsci would be a potential candidate for this as well bc he was on the wagon in spirit, or at least thought Mala is scum, just wasn't voting her

notsci likely isn't on a team with Cho, though (that's the one thing I remember OTOH; should be able to go back and check again later)

one thing that has me somewhat paranoid is that BBT is saying the same thing I am, while pushing for a lynch on Soren who wasn't even on the wagon. which if this is singleball makes me think something along the lines of BBT/1 of {Asher, notsci}, although it might as well work with anyone else on the wagon. it might just be me, though. either way, it's scummy in it's own right.

[pieguyn]

vote: BBT

[pieguyn]

if BBT is scum with notsci he'd be on an entirely separate scum team, obv

multiball might also indicate he's just the other werewolf

[pieguyn]

yo notsci, did you still wanna talk?

[pieguyn]

welp

one question really quick: do you think there were any more scum on Mala? if so, who?

[pieguyn]

will post later. not in a good state of mind to post atm

[pieguyn]

I stand prodded. should be around tonight

[pieguyn]

nothing's going on to make me change my reads

I *think* NM might be town for tonal reasons. my impression of him from pokemon upick is that his posts generally just feel flat when he's scum, and I don't really get that here. (believe it or not him saying "you don't fuck this game, this game fucks you" is one post that makes me think this) the push on BBT isn't anything special, but I don't get scum vibes from it either.

also thinking Bulge might be scum but not really interested in pursuing it at this point

[pieguyn]

Not_Mafia

do you have any reads?

/support

[pieguyn]

I have nothing left that I want to do this day phase. I still disagree with the Soren scum reads, btw. might elaborate on it in-depth sometime later, if it becomes relevant

[pieguyn]

Huntress, you are amazing and I love you. <3

sorry I didn't signal that I was the traitor properly. after D1 I had (incorrectly) thought Cho knew it was me, and then yeah.

GG