New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Varsoon]

Dat OZ response.
I'm fine hanging out on it.
Did you think huge text in colors would diffuse the wagon?
:/

[Titus]

That's not the point though, or at least not my point. I'm not taking it as a VT claim. I'm wondering why we should believe it's a coincidence that you used the same uncommon phrase for it as the sample PM uses and then used it repeatedly.

This.

Also, Titus, I buy that Ozgin is scum. But we need to figure out associations while there's still time in the day.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bushes. By regaining Ozgin, we find his buddies. But even the culturally is not that simple, scum may not want to crossover for several reasons. You find scum. You lynch them.

Voting off Ozgin relieves the pressure to do something else

[Skybird]

Skybird seems... more serious... since Cheet's case was posted. Not sure how I feel about that.

Skybird, I assume you've played with House considering where you came from. Would you really expect House to come into this game any differently as scum? Really? Abrasive and not giving a shit is just House. It's not just town House. It's House.

Don't worry, I won't be serious for the rest of the game.

Yes, I've played House at another site as well as here. House prides himself in playing the same style as town or scum. As I mentioned earlier, he beat me in lylo because I thought he was town. That was my last completed game with him. I voted him in RVS just to let him know that I would be keeping my eye on him.

Now we are out of RVS and I am scum hunting.

[Skybird]

Guys, I'm sick. So I'm probably going to be out the rest of the day. Will see about getting back to this tomorrow. Just an FYI.

Feel better soon SW.

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: Varsoon

Ozgin:
Three votes in 6 minutes is fast for a smaller game. This is the first 10 pages in a 21 player game. Go look at other 21 player games, especially with multiball setups.
I agree that poor reasons for voting are poor.
However, my reasons for following Cheetory on the wagon were trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.
If you think there's better reasons for joining into a wagon on early D1, propose them.
No one's done anything incriminating enough to warrant an actual-factual town-whole wagon.
In fact, every wagon will likely be a bit scum-sided given our teams.
So calling out people on a 3-person wagon is derisive and hurts game momentum.
Furthermore, your post against me tries to scumpaint me over lack of your own understanding. Just because you don't comprehend a motive or a post does not make the poster scum--it only speaks to your own perception. This forces me into assuming one of two things; You lack perception or you are trying to leverage a lynch onto me. I'd rather assume you're a good player. So, I've got to figure that you're aligned differently than I am or you're bad at the game.
So, that's why I called you out. I wanna see your feathers get a bit ruffled here. I want to see if you'll either prove to have made a mistake in reading me or if you'll prove to be someone that town needs to lynch.

P-EDIT:
I'm down for an Ozgin wagon~
VOTE: Ozgin

So this was prompted by a vote and unvote on him from me, and I felt this was a huge and blow-uppy response to a very small event. He refutes me voting point about him blindly trusting Cheetory with some nonsense about how he "trusts Cheetory's approach of putting pressure on players on a wagon of a questionable player," which there was no indication of. In fact, he soft-buddies Cheetory later (I think he calls him things like, "my beloved Cheetory.").

Then he brings up a point about how every wagon is going to have scum on it, which wasn't a point I was arguing (as if he pulled a random topic out of his ass to discuss). He follows this with some backhanded dribble about how I'm either stupid/wrong or a scum, and he'd "rather believe that I'm a good player" so he assumes I'm scum.

He closes with something about ruffling my feathers, and he mentions how it's "why he came after me," like he's trying to spin this post like it's an attack rather than a defense, but he's really just defending himself almost without prompt. In fact, he only voted me in a P-Edit to hop on a wagon.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

Make note of how he starts the whole "citizen" speculation here. He makes it a point to say he thinks I "checked the OP to make sure I was calling myself the right thing," yes?

Also, you mention in 185 that this is the most excited game you've had to play as citizen in a normal, implying that you're referring to multiple plays as citizen, as if you're using citizen to just mean town. Does that make sense? It doesn't seem like you're referring to yourself as a citizen just here, and the inconsistency in use of citizen/town is weird.

And we can stop debating the citizen thing. We'll know when we know.

Now look how he says here (referring to the same post) that he's recognizing exactly what I did:

Referring to myself as a citizen and using it to just mean town.

If he's so skeptical of my usage of the word "citizen," then how did he perfectly recognize exactly what I was actually meaning? He's using the citizen point to argue against me to some audiences, but then here he's recognizing what I really meant.

Then he tried to sweep it away with "we can stop debating the citizen thing, we'll know when we know," but now it's the one and only prominent point against me for my wagon.

My basic point is that the site-meta calls the green-aligned players town. It struck me as awkward that Ozgin would vary from talking about 'town' and 'citizen' (in contexts of multiple games and this one), calling himself Citizen when there was more direct pressure on his slot. There's also a bit of an issue over whether or not that was a VT claim, but I didn't really want to engage on that point because if it was--it's best to keep that from being made too public info. Ultimately, it read to me like Ozgin wanted to claim town, read the OP, and called himself 'citizen' instead of just town. It's not an amazing point, to be honest, but it is

something

. I also wanted to see how Ozgin would handle the pressure of a wagon building on him (I noticed he had a vote on him, which is a lot of the reason why I stopped sheeping my beloved Cheetory).

At this point, I want to see where this goes.
Ozgin seems to participate and 'get excited' as the game heats up in these ways, so regardless of his align, this also gets him posting a bit more (hopefully) which will make reading him easier (hopefully) for all of us (hopefully).

And right after he talks about how we can stop debating about it, and how I used it as if it meant town, he's using it to argue against me. (Also, here's the beloved Cheetory post I remember seeing). But then the

next fucking sentence

is about how he doesn't want to over publicize the point,

even though he's still bringing it up.

Then he reiterates the stupid argument that it's me checking the OP to make sure it's the right thing to say, and backpedaling yet again to call the point "not amazing, but something."

Then he talked about how he wanted to get me posting more "hopefully" (even though I was posting a lot) and then implies that everyone is having trouble reading me, which wasn't a thing at that time. He's like trying to gain a friendship with everyone and pull them all towards me.

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there. Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

@Bookitty

: You've grown to become a player who I put a lot of stock in. You've got very strong direction as town, and in this game, even if you're scum, you'd need to eliminate the SK and the other team. I want to know your reads and thoughts on the game. I'd like to see you be more vocal. I want your voice to be in this game. In all the 21 player games I've seen, Town only wins when there are dominant town voices. I want to hedge my bets on you, Boo. Get in here!

@RadiantCowbells

: Please don't phone this game in. You're an easy lynch and I'd like you to be more outspoken and here. I don't want to see you either skim by or get lynched based on path of least resistance.

So he makes another post that is internally flip-floppy here. He starts with this little thing about Lala just being and easy lynch, but then says he wouldn't mind it because Lala isn't providing enough.

He calls me abrasive and claims that I'm "wheeling back" when I was merely answering Cheetory's questions. He then goes on to agree with my points on Lala (kinda contradicting the whole, "Lala is just easy" concept), and asks me about my reads or whatever, so it's almost like he's agreeing with me and saying that I'm correct, but apparently still sticking to the vote on me. K.

The rest of this post is him stroking Bookitty and RadiantCowbells and saying, "Oh please, please please please friends, I want you to be vocal and active! I truly value your opinions, please come play!" (which Bookitty actually took the bait and said his reaching out to him was towny, lol). This is where his hard-buddying becomes really flamboyant.

Not callin' anyone lurkers--but I do want to call for some people to keep the game's pace in mind and make an effort to contribute from the onset.

@Ozgin:

I mainly wanted to sort out the motivations of people that I was skeptical about who are on the wagon (I'm still not excited about the LaLaDucks wagon's voters) and since your were vocal I decided giving attention your way could be a strong means of figuring some things out.
I feel like I have a stronger grasp on my read on your slot and the LalaDucks wagon. If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Ducks.
VOTE: LalaDucks
It needs to be made accountable.

@Egg:

Damn right I'm buddying Bookitty. Bookitty should be my buddy. If enough buddies get together, they can form a strong pact that'll destroy the scum. At this point, I don't care if my buddies are scum or third party. We need to eliminate an entire team or we lose. I've been in multiball before. If scum and third party double-down on their kills on town (and if town has killing abilities they mess up too), then we could easily lose several of our members after a mislynch. It's best to have everyone working together rather than against each other. I'll make friends and buddies for that cause.

@Bookitty:

<3 I know we've all got busy lives. I just wanna see you throw down in this game and bring the thunder! Take the game at your pace, of course. I just wanna see the quality of play I usually see from you, y'know? A call to arms, of sorts. So far, you've been awesome. I wanna see you keep being awesome.

Here he claims he targeted me because I'm vocal, which is stupid because there are plenty of other vocal players. Then, he keeps acting all apprehensive about the lala wagon

as he fucking climbs aboard it.

Then he says that, after he's read me and lala both, he feels that lala is more worthwhile to lynch. I agree, then and now, but he goes back on that pretty easily.

Then he goes on to defend his buddying, and further perpetuate it by doing it some more with Bookitty. At this point, he's damn near flirting!

Oh shit Varsoon wants to work with other people early on in a large game!?
Must be scum!

Except I'm not.
I don't follow your reasoning here, House.
I can also provide you with a shitload of meta evidence where I've done this as town before and not done it as scum.
But meta's dumb so let's not go there.

He sarcastically defends his buddying as working with other people. Then he does this weird, "I can provide meta!" followed by "Meta's dumb, so let's just not." That implies he either doesn't have the meta to show, or he's trying to get people to stop asking questions.

So far House gives me town vibes. Comes in the game all abrasive and not giving a crap.

I fail to see how that gives you townvibes but I guess so?

@House:

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setup.
Follow me here, okay? Follow me.
That means that regardless of my alignment, I've got 3 other factions to defeat for my wincon.
Regardless of Cheetory and Bookitty's alignments, they've got 3 other factions to defeat for their wincon.
AS TOWN, it's more important than anything to defeat the other factions with a lynch because

that's the only fucking way they will be able to.

So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions.
Encouraging

focus

and

direction

in a large game is good this early on.
Encouraging

dialogue

and

interaction

in a large game is good this early on.
Your efforts to call that out as scummy are noted, but I will not have you dismantle my attempt to get this fucking game running, House.
Either get on the helping side of things or be derisive. But know that if you stand against me, you're already dead.

Make sure that when you read this post, you memorize this sentence, especially the underlined: "So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions."

He's still defending the idea that buddying = working together to catch scum. He's claiming to trying to be "getting this game running," which is bullshit and he knows it. He's just trying to make friends with everyone so nobody want's to lynch him.

Jesus, House.
I'm

NOT

working with people regardless of their alignment.
I'm saying that if it turns out my read is wrong, I don't care.
Furthermore, other people's read of me shouldn't matter as much this early in the game because direction, focus, dialogue, and interaction is more important.

Anyway.
We could bicker all damn page about this and we almost have.

I'm more interested in your reads, how you feel about the Lalaladucks wagon (both the slot and the people voting it) and if you'd be interested in being my friend.

Well, did you memorize that line? The line he perfectly contradicts with, "I'm not working with people regardless of their alignment," even though he said exactly that. Then he tries to just shuffle away this argument with, "Anyway, we bickered too much about this, what are your reads?" - Kinda what he did about the arguments against me using the word "citizen" in place of "town." And he tries to quickly go over to the topic of reads, exactly what he did with me.

VOTE: Ozgin

I felt like Lala was low-hanging fruit but the recent lala posts made me conflicted enough to swap votes.
On one hand, recent posts from laladucks were cogent, apologetic, and generally understandable.
On the other, that's a method of survivalism that SK would almost certainly -have- to employ.
I kinda wanted to put more pressure there but this seems to be all we'll get.

House and Sky are town, imo. I'd like to avoid that for now.

Back to me, and it's not even like his reads changed on me. There's no indication of that. He's just jumping on me because he wants to get on a new wagon.

He's saying he doesn't think lala is low-hanging fruit anymore. The next two lines are saying, "Yeah he's good, but he could also be bad." He concedes his own point with some dribble about him wanting to pressure lala more and failing, and that (I guess) is supposed to be the reason he switched to me? Blegh, icky votes are icky.

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setting. When I say SK, I refer to that 1.
Why mention it?
Because it exists.

"Oh I'm bringing up the SK because he exists! We have to worry about 1 of 7 scum, and the 1 who is alone and working by themselves as opposed to the two scumteams of 3 who are working together, solely because he exists!"

SK's going to worry about their survival the most in this setup, and is very likely bulletproof. They need to avoid being lynched. People who are overly defensive and self-preserving may fit this. In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK.
Any of the other scum teams can win even if they lose members, but the SK loses if he dies.
They have to play to survive.

@RadiantCowbells: Post! Become relevant! Get in the game. Also, uh, what Titus said.

Prepare for another one of his contradictions between posts: He says, "In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK." Remember this.

He's making light allegations towards lala being SK and making brazzen setup speculations in regards to the SK.

However, I kinda wanna just point out that the way SKs are successful are more or less by hard-buddying everyone and being the universal friend. If they're BP, they don't have to worry about NKs, so their only real scare is being lynched. That sounds awfully familiar... I was just reading someone's ISO who does this. But anyhow...

We're -not- SK hunting, chill out.
I'm saying that it's legitimate to consider someone's survivalism and defensiveness as a part of perhaps being an SK.
Because we know there's one in the setup.
I'm saying that we should consider everything we have before us, rather than turn a blind eye to certain aspects of the setup when considering players and their play.

"We're -not- SK hunting, chill out." -> What a lovely thing to follow "We need to lynch the SK." Then the rest of the post is more dribble about how we need to consider all things, blah blah.


Overall, Varsoon is wishy-washy. I should have kept on him from the start. He contradicts himself every few posts and is generally wishy-washy on all of his points. I think he's a good person to lynch. Not just wagon for pressure, but I think he's a good D1 lynch.

VOTE: Varsoon

[Skybird]

RadiantCowbells' posts are really weird. How about telling us your case on Dragonspawn?

[dragonspawn]

CLAIM: JESTER

pls lyncherinoes me.

You want us to lynch you for being a jester yet you're voting for me cause I told you to knock out the nonsense. I will never understand how anyone finds this gameplay to be useful.

[dragonspawn]

Uh, letting other people fight about their nonsense, and sitting back and cruising by?

Gosh I just have to be upfront, don't I :c
Okay. So, what do you think House is going to look at first when he starts reading the game?
In my head, I imagine him first going "there is a wagon on me. Hm." and then looking at those votes. If lala and Kitz are afraid of House and they're scum, why wouldn't they be worried about him taking a closer look at them because of their votes on him? Why would they need to forge reasoning so hard for why they think someone is scum if they're capable of hunting for a second scumteam if they were scum?

I'll join in this game tomorrow. Had a busy past few days. Also, on the dragon spawn to Ozgin thing, Ozgin

always

has a stupid pointless wagon on him, regardless of alignment. He eventually obv towns it up when he is town, so just wait and see if that happens later...Ozgin is

not

a day 1 lynch sort of person. Day 3, by all means, lynch him.

Thanks for the info. You're the best.

I agree that ozgin is someone we should observe. Last time we played he was pinging me like crazy. I'm not getting that now. Granted, it's still the first 48 hours of the game.

Radiant, if you're not going to play like a normal player and play like a fucking troll, then replace out.

Otherwise, do something fucking productive, will ya?

Be careful. I told him that and now he is scum reading me. It's an obvious scum tell apparently to tell someone to play the game.

[dragonspawn]

I agree. Of scum was afraid of house the more obvious thing to do is just ignore him and nk. But maybe they aren't afraid of him. Maybe they think they mislynch him or think they can get the town afraid of him. Shrugs.

I'm just trying to figure out what side he is on. Game feels different but I'm not sure if that alignment indicative or not.

as for varsoon, I thought the SK comments are odd because ots usually scum interested in the SK this early. So they can look like the are scum hunting. Problem is this is multi all so they should be scum bunting regardless. And also little cautious of varsoon because of my upclose view of his recent scum game. He is really good at avoiding suspicion.

I'm also eading oz as more townish. I don't like how his wagon is already at L4 this early in the game. Obvious I'm willing to keep an eye on him. I should take a closer look at his wagon too.

I'm mass murdering everybody at your house so hard tonight.

Aww shucks. I guess ill call the neighborhood watch to keep an eye on you.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's ok guys I'm town.

[dragonspawn]

It's ok guys I'm town.

Then see a doc. Suicidal tendencies are not healthy

[Egg]

My jester claim was SO supernatural, superserious right?

Just as serious as anything else you've done...

That's not the point though, or at least not my point. I'm not taking it as a VT claim. I'm wondering why we should believe it's a coincidence that you used the same uncommon phrase for it as the sample PM uses and then used it repeatedly.

This.

Also, Titus, I buy that Ozgin is scum. But we need to figure out associations while there's still time in the day.

Usually you figure those out after a scum flip. But just for fun, what do you think about my Silverwolf and Anen points about avoiding the wagon (Titus gets most of the credit for the Silverwolf one, but it's more my elaboration I'm curious about your thoughts on)

I'm also eading oz as more townish. I don't like how his wagon is already at L4 this early in the game. Obvious I'm willing to keep an eye on him. I should take a closer look at his wagon too.

I'm sure the wagon is loaded with scum. Doesn't make him town in this setup. Where do you think he pulled the term "citizen" from?

Skybird, but didn't you say you were town reading him for the abrasive don't give a shit attitude? Or am I misremembering? Because if that's what you said, your meta on him (which matches mine by the way) contradicts that point.

Aww shucks. I guess ill call the neighborhood watch to keep an eye on you.

Please do. That comment scared me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Dragon, you're scum.

Don't talk to me like that.

[dragonspawn]

Possibly because he read his pm or the rules multiple times as wake asked.

Who knows. Like I said it's a reason to keep an eye on him but I'm not sure it's a reason to push a lynch this early.

[Egg]

Couldn't he have just said that when I asked the first approximately three times, initially giving him the benefit of the doubt?

[Cheetory6]

I'm trying to decide whether Ozgin being this irritable is more likely to be coming from town. Someone from last game who I'd prefer to have not been on my scumteam with because that may be influencing my perception of him {though I wouldn't mind talking with Silver about it if she's interested} can you tell me whether you thought Ozgin was a lot more lax last game even under a lot of pressure with being lynched?

His citizen claim is bad but I don't really care to talk about it and I don't think it's necessarily as much of a smoking gun as people are making it out to be.

VOTE: dragonspawn
oo bb i wann get yoo.

That's what Cheet does as scum with another scum group. I've seen it.

Egg stop being paranoid about me.

[Egg]

To be fair, my read on you changed to null when you started explaining the skybird thing.

[dragonspawn]

I thought sky was the scum cheetory

[Cheetory6]

Yup.
She's the only scum in the game.
Still moving today so softposts for now.

[Bookitty]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bushes. By regaining Ozgin, we find his buddies. But even the culturally is not that simple, scum may not want to crossover for several reasons. You find scum. You lynch them.

Voting off Ozgin relieves the pressure to do something else

We are literally less than two days into this game.

Quicklynching someone Day One is not a good plan. We have time.

[dragonspawn]

game

I like this post. Feels townish.

now if only you'd share your theory

[Prolapsed Brain]

I am ten pages behind.

So far, Ozgin looks scummish, Egg looks townish, Titus looks nulltownish, and everyone else is not memorable.

[Aneninen]

Still don't like how we are barely into day 1 and people are seriously pushing hard to lynch him when we have ton of day to go. Yes the citizen comment is not a good thing for him but id like to see more.

Hmm-hmm.
Ozgin is only at L–6...

I haven't considered dragonspawn enough, probably because he's been following suit right under me. I'm going to read dragonspawn again, especially now that he's apparently a wagon.

Really?

LOl @ "Obvscum Ozgin" - I'm still like, 75% positive you're literally only attacking me because you didn't like my analogy. Boo fucking hoo. Get over yourself, and get over the damn analogy. You're literally tunneling me on the premise of me claiming "VT", which is the stupidest fucking wagon. Either you're scum, or you're trying to throw this game.

I don't think she's doing so.
Why are you flailing all the time?

The changing thing: I have myself on the excel sheet in row 13 on Google Docs. I can't delete a whole row to where the rows below it will move up, and I don't want an empty row because that fucks with my OCPD.

Whut?

For the Vanilla Townie thing, my point was that Titus keeps saying I called myself Vanilla Townie, when I called myself Citizen. I know they're

equivalent in a usage sense,

but me saying "Citizen" is just how I call myself regular town. And again, I'm back to arguing this stupid fucking point.

Scarecrow.

TSO is probably just trying to add pressure to me. I just don't get that there's a fucking wagon on me based on my "misuse" of terminology.

As if noone had reasons for voting you.

Anen feels like he doesn't want to be on wagons. He suspects Ozgin. He thinks dragonspawn is his buddy. There are wagons on both. And he votes Kitz on a "what if". What?

I think I'll have some time to join any of those wagons (and I'm willing to).
By the way, what do you think about Kitzy's reaction after I voted her? (Hint: there was ...nothing.)

Also, Egg, congratulations! You've been the first one who's noticed that I'm in this game. So, let's talk, shall we? You voted for Ozgin in your next post, right after telling us that you didn't like Titus's case.

CLAIM: JESTER

pls lyncherinoes me.

Daykill: RadiantCowbells

Spoiler:

Fake Vig kill.

Spoiler: Varsoon

I removed the spoiler because of its length.

[b?]vote: Varsoon[/b]

Such a detailed case which appeared without any signs of coming...
I wonder whether someone suggested Ozgin via scum-QT to stop being defensive and attack someone instead.

[Taly]

There is so much to process in the past 2 pages. I have read everyones posts, I'm saying this because this post isn't going to be a major reply to anything, just my shitload of current thoughts.

1)

493 Your vote is still placed on Dragon, yet you haven't even spoken about your theory - which may have seemed to lead you to the conclusion of Dragon/Ozgin scum? I'm not really understanding your thought process on 521 either. Do you mind telling us your theory?

2)

Just when I hop off the Kitz wagon. 498 - Someone else hops on. X_X You could do a bit better in timing, Anen. But - Why is Kitz your vote if you think Dragon/Ozgin are possibly partners?

3)

508 and 534 - RC, what are you smoking? ._. You claim Jester, and now you're saying you're town? I can't tell if this is scum trying to appear so frivolous that they are dismissed as a lynch candidate, or town doing some intentionally shitty play.

But while we're on the subject of your play, have you found out something you could explicitly point out - that makes Dragon-scum? 461

*Nonserious Point* 4)

Silver, please get better.

5)

529 Ozgin, if you had to place your vote on anyone else but Varsoon - who would it be and why?

6)

Now we're getting to the grand topic of this post, yaaaaaaay.

*Short Answer*

Beginning to dislike Ozgin wagon. Titus' recent posts make me want barf in my mouth a little, even though I'm a bit hesitant in thinking she is scum.

*Long Answer*

492 - Again, another post that gives me weird vibes on Titus. The more I'm seeing Ozgin, I'm thinking Ozgin is pretty angry town, and I don't think he meant harm about his analogy. Nor did Ozgin mean his analogy was directed at Silver, and this is what I see that Titus is implying when she reviews Silvers "unnecessarily hostile" point.

494 and 495 - These posts especially put me off.

Titus, do you know that Kitz has practically scumclaimed despite how frivolous she did? Haven't you seen how some of Dragons and/or Ducks posts have seemed fabricated? Why are you saying everyone who is looking at others instead of Ozgin in terms of suspect - is scum? I really do not like this tunneling mindset, especially how early we are in the game and it doesn't make you look good.

Another thing, you say

*if*

you're wrong, we could chase theory blindly another day? What the hell?

Since when is it a good thing that town blindly chases after ANYTHING in a game?

526

Um Titus, I don't entirely get what you're saying here. Are you saying by voting Ozgin, it'd be easier to find his scum buddies? What pairs of scum do you have if Ozgin was hypothetically scum?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I do not really like the responses from Ozgin, but they just seem genuine - in terms of emotion. I mean, a wagon going up twice now? Not to mention he's already gotten to L-4 before he was able to do something?

I want to see Ozgin play with some pressure off of himself. I'm also pretty sure there is a lurker and a scum on Ozgins wagon already.

My intuition tells me Ozgin is possibly town, but I'm his play is really not impressive. I really do not want to take Titus' tunneling to heart, since I'm not even sure of her right now. I don't know if Titus is scum though, we both have clashed before when we were both town, and I think this could be an disagreement? Not sure.

In any case, I'm a bit more confident in Dragon scum - I approve of the wagon and push but I'm a little unsure of the reasons. But whenever I ISO Dragon he just seems somewhat fake in his responses... I also think this might be his scum-play, since I've seen it from him before.

UNVOTE: Ozgin
VOTE: dragonspawn

This vote may be temporary, I'm not sure. Assuming that it is possible Ozgin/Dragon are a partnership(which, not sure how that'd work) - I'd be happier going for Dragon. Ozgin, can you actually scum-hunt instead of addressing everyone who wants to throw rocks at you? I haven't heard a clear-minded post from you since RVS and it is making me have some difficulty reading you.

1)

Dragon, who do you think is most likely scum at the moment?

2)

What do you think about Titus V Ozgin?

3)

Can you please give me a reason to townread you? >_<......

[Egg]

Anen, I don't have a problem with voting off the wagon when we are nowhere near deadline. But you seem to have a stronger case for Ozgin and maybe even dragonspawn than you do on kitz. The fact that kitz hasn't responded to you doesn't really bother me because your case was a non-commital "what if". If you hadn't attached the vote, I wouldn't be sure you were scumreading kitz. Hell, I'm still not entirely sure you are.

Still to Anen, yeah Titus's case sucks. I don't care if Ozgin says he's a "citizen" yet is actually a power role. If I'm a power role, which I neither confirm nor deny, I want scum to think I'm a VT. So that part of the case is absolute BS. However, I've made my own point and I think it's a strong one. And I know where you are going with this. If Titus is scum who has a bad case on Ozgin, Ozgin could still be scum. Even scum has four opposing scum members whose identities they most likely don't know, six in the case of the nuetral player.

I'm gonna eat before I read Taly's post.