Nightingale's Tale - [Game Over]

[farside22]

Sukura: you may have missed it but plainmuffin is scum reading gif

[farside22]

@nacho: I was aware Mac was talking about the wagon on himself.

How's your reads coming?

[borkjerfkin]

The part that particularly doesn't make sense to me is that you have an issue with my biggest push having a lot to do with a prediction on how the setup is set up as opposed to play when we are very earlygame and no one has really done anything particularly alignment-indicative (at least during the point where I'm writing thing). I don't understand why you think I have a rigid view of the gamestate based on a push that I'm making based on current beliefs (which, contrary to popular belief, are not completely set in stone, they are just what I believe currently). It's not like I believe absolutely nothing else has a reasonable chance of being true. I don't understand why scum!me would have less information than I currently have, that actually doesn't make any sense.

I'm not saying that scum you would have less info. I didnt mention scum you at all. I'm saying town you wouldn't have a clear enough picture to make a push on setup spec right now. Scum you would obviously be in a different situation.

And in a game with a ton of people you've played with before, you're just picking a really weird and mechanics oriented push. It lacks any confirmed basis in reality and I think its obvious that I think its weird, and instead of really engaging with me you're taking potshots at me and trying to drag me down into semantics when it should be really fucking obvious to you that I'm town.

I still really want to engage. I've posted a lot of stuff about people we both know. What do you think? Throw me a bone.

[Nachomamma8]

Kagami's frustration at the farside-Kagami argument in 323 feels very real.

@Mac: Agree; I'm guessing scum probably hopped on Nacho after my vote between (Katsuki, regular-Muffin, lala)

I have no real way to qualify that statement any further at this point; it's probably something to come back to later.

This post in particular reminded me that one of the things I don't like about Katsuki's push on me is that he's continuing pushing me despite the "don't push me" signals. He's seen my scum game and how I respond to pressure when scum, and that most definitely isn't it.

I give no fucks about 272 after that shit post that was 270. The premise of all his assumptions and subsequent conclusion of me being scum were construed piles of shit, and something that is more typical of NACHOSCUM. I've been pushed by both nachoTOWN and nachoSCUM before as town and I know the differences by now.

My premise that you-Cho's roles probably didn't both exist together on Day 5 was bullshit?
Because that's the main premise, and that's a premise that you originated.

Nacho treating my claim as if it's 100% guaranteed true is kind of... lol.

VOTE: Nacho

Normally I'd be squicked by the wagon speed, but I just tried that tactic to qualify my reads as scum, so I'll force myself not to be.

?

I think the Nacho wagon is pretty awful and Kats could be doing the same thing he got away with in the last Alice game.

It most certainly feels that way.

I think the Nacho wagon is pretty awful and Kats could be doing the same thing he got away with in the last Alice game.

lol have you read any of nachos posts and have you read mine? I don't know how you can draw any comparisons between the two.

When's the part where you get into specifics instead of just vaguely but confidently attacking my posts?

[borkjerfkin]

Also "no one has done anything alignment indicative" is like 100% not a thing I think you would say in any game ever

[Nachomamma8]

I'm saying town you wouldn't have a clear enough picture to make a push on setup spec right now.

I very often make pushes when I don't have a very clear picture because the pushes themselves create more information, setup spec or not. I still don't think that is an unreasonable approach.

And in a game with a ton of people you've played with before, you're just picking a really weird and mechanics oriented push. It lacks any confirmed basis in reality and I think its obvious that I think its weird, and instead of really engaging with me you're taking potshots at me and trying to drag me down into semantics when it should be really fucking obvious to you that I'm town.

And, again, you keep calling it a really weird and a really unreasonable mechanics oriented push that lacks no basis in reality when it is a push before any players have done anything particularly scummy. If it was mid-game, it was later in early game, if it was late game, you're correct, I wouldn't have aired my theory because it would be a small theory and I wouldn't have things to fall back on. But, since it was early game, since I was already seeing similarities in Katsuki's push on Cho to his push as scum elsewhere, I didn't think it was unreasonable as a starting point and you're still not trying to demonstrate or explain why you found it unreasonable as a starting point.

I think you're town, but it doesn't mean I can't be frustrated with you not understanding my point when I've attempted to explain as clearly I could in several different ways. I don't understand why you're not understanding my point, and I have no idea how I'm supposed to fix it.

[Nachomamma8]

Also "no one has done anything alignment indicative" is like 100% not a thing I think you would say in any game ever

Nothing indicative of scum.

[Nachomamma8]

My reads are forming as I'm catching up, I'll make a readslist when I'm done.

[borkjerfkin]

I have no idea how I'm supposed to fix it.

I guess just talking to me about other stuff would be good

Also I'm kinda drunk

[borkjerfkin]

And honestly after everything I think you probably shouldn't be lynched today

[farside22]

Yeah I'm not touching nacho here but his post make me want to vote kats again.

[borkjerfkin]

When's the part where you get into specifics instead of just vaguely but confidently attacking my posts?

This is precisely what I don't like about katsuki and half the other people in the game.

Like I'm sorry I don't get the gist of what you say after you think you've explained it adequately. Thats part of the communication barrier. It makes me scumread people who refuse to make even the slightest concession to clarify themselves. But they aren't always scum.

[Nachomamma8]

391 by grapes feels town to me, good followup to the last post.

The assumptions I'm making is that Cho is telling the truth and Katsuki's role as scum makes sense while both roles existing as town does not. If Katsuki is not telling the truth about his role, he's probably scum so I'm not really making assumptions there. I don't care about other doublevoters (why should I?). Yes, katsuki as scum would take this path as scum because he has before.

FTR, this was what I was seeing, too - scum making assumptions to qualify his reads?

I don't really know what this is supposed to mean.

The assumptions I'm making is that Cho is telling the truth and Katsuki's role as scum makes sense while both roles existing as town does not. If Katsuki is not telling the truth about his role, he's probably scum so I'm not really making assumptions there. I don't care about other doublevoters (why should I?). Yes, katsuki as scum would take this path as scum because he has before.

FTR, this was what I was seeing, too - scum explicitly making assumptions to qualify his reads?

You should put your vote back on Nacho.

I think this is the first time we've ever agreed on anything before.

I think you're scum now.

Funny, I had pretty much the opposite reaction. The posts Katsuki's made re:me on this page much more closely follow what I expect from Katsuki-town.

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

Actually if this is an onomatopoeia of me being blown away instead of what I thought it was then nvm its null

What did you think it was originally?

Hi.

Vote: notscience

These are currently my thoughts.
I don't feel great that this is currently my strongest and basically only scumread, but this is currently where I stand.

[borkjerfkin]

What did you think it was originally?

"You missed something that explains what I'm doing"

[farside22]

That's pretty weak nacho.

[Nachomamma8]

Cho scum trying to start a neighborhood purge early?

Do you honestly believe the words you're saying when you stare deep deep into your heart? To me, it seems beyond absolutely ridiculous that you would think that Cho-scum would seriously attempt to purge a neighborhood by going "oh, fakegod slipped and told me the exact composition of the neighborhood".

I dont like this

this feels like ate

this feels like trying to make him feel stupid for trying to get a better read on yo

this feels like scum

Do you think it's AtE because I expressed emotion or because you think where I'm coming from is unreasonable?

I don't like your suspicion on either me, Cho, or Kagami.

All three reads take one specific post out of an entire ISO and make it a read, which makes it seem like you're just digging up the bare minimum you need to justify reading someone whereas town-you's sorting process is generally much more organic and has a stronger tendency to reach out instead of just bullshitting an attack. I understand why you would specifically be looking for emotion in my posts and see it as Nacho!scum as a result, but it seems weird that you ignore the rest of my posts while doing that, and it seems weird that you ignored the context and avoided actually forming a push on me (the way you went about it felt like you were antagonizing the me/bork fight).

Your push on Cho is terrible terrible terrible because you ignored claims and pushes elsewhere, cherry picked a quote that seemed very obviously a joke, and used that to justify a vote down the road. I don't like the way you deal with his gifs toward you later. I understand where his side of it was coming from because picking on that joke and acting like he was using it as a scum tactic to purge a neighborhood is completely fucking ridiculous, but you shouldn't have been willing to let him just dodge that completely. In addition, why didn't you reach out to anyone else about that reasoning? Didn't you find it strange that FakeGod allegedly made such a ridiculous error and didn't acknowledge it at all in thread?

Your read on Kagami seems to be Kagami scumreading you for lurking and because she wanted more out of Natirasha but not out of me. That is also an absolutely terrible read, and is additionally another great example of you focusing in on one tiny part of a person's play in the game and using it to justify the read while ignoring everything else.

[Sakura Hana]

Sukura: you may have missed it but plainmuffin is scum reading gif

You may have missed it, but he also has a scumread on me, yet he refused to vote me because "he only has 1 vote".

Anyways I guess my potentially-scum pool is

nacho

katsuki

sakura

gif

gaiden
notscience

When i asked him why he wasn't voting me:

Because I only have one vote. Aren't you paying attention?

At that point Cho was also voting me (and still is) and I even voted myself, he still refused to vote me.

I'm trying to avoid the OMGUS trap but GIF's ISO really is shitty.

Possibly scum trying to plant false associations with me by parking but "scumhunting" elsewhere.

Compared to everything he's said about me this seems like a rather weak reason to jump onto GIF instead of me, as soon as someone else agrees with him on GIF.

[Sakura Hana]

All three reads take one specific post out of an entire ISO and make it a read, which makes it seem like you're just digging up the bare minimum you need to justify reading someone

Also called a strawman. Man, Nacho's thoughts are aligning with my own, he's prob town.

Unvote
Vote: Muffin

Back here.

[Nachomamma8]

See

I tend to default nacho to scum >_>

I also intend to actually be good at this game!

I had hoped your response here would have some sort of followup ala "Nacho tends to show emotion more often as scum than town" or "his town meta is more aggressive than this". Your "I always scumread Nacho so Nacho is scum!" is usually a joke while calling me out for AtE is decidedly not that, so it doesn't make sense to respond to someone reaching out to you about a read with that old line.

Her posts came accross that way to me

This response is also pretty lacking.

As to why there were no comments from me about your post... did I even post in between your two walls?

[Katsuki]

WRT zmuffin's neighborhood analysis on my play: He made probably one correct statement in his 20 page assessment of my play, though for obvious reasons I'm not going to say which one it was.

[zMuffinMan]

Zzmuffin I wonder how he can compare him stepping in and disputing reads against brian and someone asking me about my read on nacho is even a comparison.

i had one very brief conversation with mac where i said i don't think brian is scum and asked him why he thought brian was scum. you claimed this 'bugs' you because, for whatever reason, this supposedly prevented people from interacting with brian and allowed brian to hide behind my read on him. either your issue was with me stating a town read on brian when others were pressuring him, which makes no sense, or your issue was with me talking about brian, which again makes no sense

the fact that you then went on to state a town-read on nacho when others were calling him scummy suggests it can't be the former, ergo your issue was... me asking questions and expanding on my thoughts?

i'm not certain about muffin scum. he's acting very 'dont give a fuck' for someone whose being threatened with a dayvig. not something i'd expect from scum.

my feelings about this are kind of the same with a small caveat that's not important atm - but i don't think the behaviour fake-muffin is showing here is 'scummy'

snip

does the fact that cho wasn't serious about the 3-town-2-scum-in-neighbourhood thing not change your thoughts on cho in any way? coz, you know, that was kinda the basis of your scum read according to that first big wall you wrote...

could you expand a bit more on what you don't like about nacho's posts? coz as far as i can tell, it's mainly for "ate" or something in 272 and 272 was a pretty town-looking post tbh

Notscience's fluff posting reminds me of that one large theme where it went to like 750 pages and he tried to shirk his "low motivation when he rolls scum" meta by lolposting all game

my thoughts are slightly different to this, but i get basically the same feeling when i read noddy's posts - there's very little actual doing of anything

And i managed to figure lala's motives were actually trying to read me instead of trying to get me mislynched as a bonus!

funny, that's the complete opposite impression to what i got from the conversation. there was a distinct lack of analysis in lala's posts and it didn't look like she was trying to figure out anything at all so much as asking really, really dumb questions that didn't really lead anywhere - i mean, the conclusion she comes to is that you're trying to give her reasons to think you're scum while simultaneously saying she thinks it's not something you'd do as scum

like, what do you imagine lala would have done differently as scum here?

also it's starting to bother me how little lala is doing to actually explain any of her reads - compare, for example, the reads list lala gave in this game to the reads list lala gave early on in other fakegod game

also not really sure why she's brushing off explaining stuff like the nacho scum read

What do you think of his more recent push on me? I don't think where he's coming from in his observation is unreasonable (last time I pushed him as town there was a considerably larger amount of energy behind the push), and it doesn't really feel like how he pushed me in Through The Looking Glass although, again, not really confident in my ability to read differences in his play based on recent failures.

there's a distinct way i think he plays as scum (even if he claims to be a master of manipulating his own meta) and i don't think this is it - but yes, it's different to that other alice game. the pushes he was making in that last alice game, and specifically how he was doing it, were part of the reason i started scum-reading him in fakegod's last touhou game. i may have also gone into some detail on that in the neighbourhood there (but i don't remember specifically where and it's 21 pages of me talking shit with fakegod so i cbf sifting through it to show you what i'm talking about)

Why do you think he's lying as town?

he's not necessarily lying, i just don't think it's a one-or-the-other dichotomy (lying-scum or truthful-town) and if he isn't actually a D5 double-voter, i wouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that he must be scum

I mean, the ammount of reaching in his posts reach astronomical values, and no one seems to fricken care just because "WHY WOULD SCUM ACT LIKE THEY DONT CARE IF THEY ARE LYNCHED HMMM?!!!" And then scum Muffin will steamroll us until endgame and it wont be my fault.

i'm not particularly worried about that at this point in time - even if fake-muffin happens to be scum, i don't really see him surviving to end-game with how he's playing here

[zMuffinMan]

nacho,

since you're around atm

talk to me about where you're at with nati, lala, grapes and fake-muffin

also,

This post in particular reminded me that one of the things I don't like about Katsuki's push on me is that he's continuing pushing me despite the "don't push me" signals. He's seen my scum game and how I respond to pressure when scum, and that most definitely isn't it.

eh, don't really think this is as bad as you're saying it is - i mean, this is partly why i asked him specifically about your first post and 272 but i don't really think his response was that bad?

[Nachomamma8]

talk to me about where you're at with nati, lala, grapes and fake-muffin

I'll talk about the other three happily, but I'd rather you talk about where you're at with nati first if that's OK.
Could you also look into Mac in depth? I've been mostly underwhelmed by him so far when I wasn't expecting to be, so I'd be interested in your thoughts there.

[Nachomamma8]

lala

If I was forced to read her play from this game and this game alone, would still probably toss my hands up. The moving away immediately after threatened with death reaction is still pretty scummy to me, but I generally find the trolling with wild abandon attitude to be mildly townish at least. Then, looking into other games here and here and here and I find a completely different player and suddenly I am beyond incredibly uncomfortable with the slot and would lynch the hell out of it despite a couple of vaguely townish things here and there.

[zMuffinMan]

the thing with nati is i expected nati-as-scum to come into this game and do certain things that she's not really doing at the moment; those things would include appealing to certain players (like myself) and trying to make herself

seem

useful (either via giving 'insight' on the claims and what she thinks of the setup or by... doing pretty much anything other than what she's currently doing). but now i'm thinking virtually the opposite; maybe the reason she's not doing these things is because she knows i'm going to immediately pick up on what she's doing and the reason she's playing like she's currently playing is because she's really not sure how to approach this game in a way that wouldn't give away her alignment. the other end of the spectrum here is that she could just be town who's completely not in the game, and i could maaaaaybe see this being the case given things we've talked about recently re: her enthusiasm with mafia in general, but eh. i'm kinda interested in what her 765 was about and i want her to start posting more because if she's town, i want her to show me that, and if she's scum, i don't want her coasting by on virtually zero content

as for mac, i think he's more likely town than scum. i don't think i've agreed with much in terms of who he's pushing, but i don't really see him pushing an agenda with those reads. his read on me (or lack thereof) is about what i'd expect from mac this early in the game. there were some posts from him that i felt were really townish (without going back and checking, there was some exchange around the time brian was posting a bunch of walls that i felt was really town recently, and i thought his reachout to bork felt townish, and i dunno, i just don't really feel a lot of what he's done looks like scum-posting). i don't really know what you're expecting of mac, given i've always thought of him as a low-key sort of player who's mostly about providing insight but not dominating the game in any way