New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Wake1]

Prodding Egg.

If anyone here is V/LA, or you know a player is V/LA, please post it here or PM killerjester/peregrinev/wake.

Updating VCs to include unspoilered V/LAs.

[Egg]

I'll try to catch up tomorrow

[Wake1]

'Green Spotted Puffer'

Tetraodon nigroviridis

Vote Count 3.04

Bookitty

Cheetory6

,

Silverwolf

Boonskiies

Cheetory6

DeltaWave

dragonspawn

Drixx

Egg

FA_Q2

House

Drixx

,

RadiantCowbells

Kitz

House

,

Skybird

lalaladucks

Boonskiies

,

Taly

,

FA_Q2

Prolapsed Brain

lalaladucks

,

Kitz

RadiantCowbells

dragonspawn

,

Prolapsed Brain

Silverwolf

Bookitty

Skybird

Taly

Not Voting:

DeltaWave

,

Egg

Spoiler: Information

Natural Action Resolution

Natural Action Resolution

Commute - {Commuter}
Blocking - {Roleblocker > Rolestopper}
Jailkeep - {Jailkeeper}
Protection - {Doctor > Bodyguard}
Miscellaneous - {Neighborizer > Friendly Neighbor}
Kill - {Mafia factional kill = SK factional kill = Vigilante}
Role Investigation - {Cop > Gunsmith > Role Cop > Vanilla Cop}
Action Investigation - {Tracker > Watcher > Voyeur > Follower > Motion Detector}

The '>' represents internal priority between the roles.
The '=' means that internal priority between the roles is the same.
All Night Kills have the same priority/speed.

Rules OP

Link

VLA

Egg

[06/03/15]

Boonskiies

[06/07/15]

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline is 06/011/15, @11PM CT.

(expired on 2015-06-11 23:00:00)

1.00 | 1.01 | 1.02 | 1.03 | 1.04 | 1.05 | 1.06 | 1.07 | 1.08 | 1.09 | 1.10 | 1.11 | 1.12 | 1.13
Ozgin Lynch & Flip
Varsoon Death & Flip
2.00 | 2.01 | 2.02 | 2.03 | 2.04 | 2.05
Titus Lynch & Flip
T S O and Aneninen Death & Flip
3.00 | 3.01 | 3.02 | 3.03 | 3.04 | 3.05 | 3.06 | 3.07 | 3.08

[SilverWolf]

I still think we should PL laladucks. I'm happy with that outcome. There is lots of noise in this game that really isn't productive. The reality is that we need to stop town-on-town vanity fights like Drixx v. House and focus on the shit that needs to get done.

Why is lala's trolling more PL worthy than say RC's trolling? If this is what you believe, why haven't you voted for lala?

[DeltaWave]

I don't think lala is trolling. I'll vote later, I don't want to end the day too fast.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think lala is trolling. I'll vote later, I don't want to end the day too fast.

So, Do you think she's being harmful intentionally? Do you think she's more likely to be scum doing that or town that doesn't give a shit?

[DeltaWave]

Hell if I know but if she continues to survive, it will cause confusion and havok later in the game.

[Drixx]

I am relatively new to the site, so I missed the scum claim in Kitz' post that was quoted. Can someone help me? Like, it appears to have been really obvious to a couple of you but I've read that post like 5 times now and it doesn't seem to warrant a 2nd glance as far as I can see.

[Kitz]

Wolf, I also had some earlier concerns about kitz at the begining of the game. (reference posts: 128, 133, 159) I voted her in post 278.

I asked in #49 what 14:3:3:1 was, you said in #128 "This makes me go hmm, how many games have you played?"

In 133, you say I could be a scum trying to drop a fake towntell.

#159 you quoted #32 (Hope we don't get mindfucked by setup) and #39 being the 14:3:3:1 question.
#32 is a referrence to the setup I was playing in, which included a really fucked up series of days, confusion, too many PR, a mass murderer, gamethrowing players and other stuff.
Since many here was in that game.

#278 is a vote on me about setup posts and the response to the questions and my use of the emoticon.
There's also my casual answer to a question. I can answer that regardless of what role and stuff I am.

Okay, serious questions.
How the fuck is a question a "fake towntell"? What makes it a towntell in any circumstance? This is a bullshit reason, it's neither towny nor scummy. Even confused scum can ask this question. I was genuine confused when I read 14:3:3:1, the numbers didn't add as I thought the limit was 20 players, and I didn't know of multiball let alone adding a 3P in the mix, not reading the setup correctly regarding that it's multiball and some lines were in the wrong places in my point of view after a re-read.

How is the use of an emoticon an attempt to discourage questions and conversation? Like, what. I don't see the connection.
In fact, most post with that emoticon was related to the 180-Game. Can't you even make the connections to that? I was not talking about the setup of this game in any detail other than "I hope it isn't as mindfucking as 180". If I'm getting you right, then you're basically saying I'm subtly trying to discourage the discussion of a game not related to this one.
Logically, shouldn't rolling eyes mean Sarcastic / Ironic? Sure, it makes small sense in some posts, but fuck it.

The odd targeting is the main reason why it pings, as it seems like an attempt to "get lowhanging fruit". I realise I didn't write that, but it was pretty obvious on an earlier response.
And a free clarification, I didn't say the two of you had a same mindset. #bad_at_english

---

Reason I vote Prolapse is because he just isn't doing anything. Even trolling is acceptable to some degree compared to being anti-game while being around. What has an anti-game to benefit? I can't think of anything other than to be a waste of space and a block. Would you want this player to have the same behavior to the end of the game?
Radiant is currently being a troll, and even took my obvious "he's already dead" bait into trolling. It's bad, yes, but there could be a reason, like a role that benefits mass attention at night or benefit from being lynched. Behavior could change, and it could be related to WIFOM.

I hope you see the pro-con thingie that's in my head regarding the situations.

As for the attempt of starting a train on me, yeeeaaaah, what the fuck? There's better players to pressure / vote. Boonskiies said a scumclaim, which I see nowhere.
The comment by Lala however pings me. "If I voted for Kitz after Skybird would you think I'm scum". The votes seemed too opportunisticly which pings, but the vote I'm going to overlook though is Skybird due to the interpretation of reading.

[Skybird]

Wolf, I also had some earlier concerns about kitz at the begining of the game. (reference posts: 128, 133, 159) I voted her in post 278.

I asked in #49 what 14:3:3:1 was, you said in #128 "This makes me go hmm, how many games have you played?"

In 133, you say I could be a scum trying to drop a fake towntell.

#159 you quoted #32 (Hope we don't get mindfucked by setup) and #39 being the 14:3:3:1 question.
#32 is a referrence to the setup I was playing in, which included a really fucked up series of days, confusion, too many PR, a mass murderer, gamethrowing players and other stuff.
Since many here was in that game.

#278 is a vote on me about setup posts and the response to the questions and my use of the emoticon.
There's also my casual answer to a question. I can answer that regardless of what role and stuff I am.

Okay, serious questions.
How the fuck is a question a "fake towntell"? What makes it a towntell in any circumstance? This is a bullshit reason, it's neither towny nor scummy. Even confused scum can ask this question. I was genuine confused when I read 14:3:3:1, the numbers didn't add as I thought the limit was 20 players, and I didn't know of multiball let alone adding a 3P in the mix, not reading the setup correctly regarding that it's multiball and some lines were in the wrong places in my point of view after a re-read.

How is the use of an emoticon an attempt to discourage questions and conversation? Like, what. I don't see the connection.
In fact, most post with that emoticon was related to the 180-Game. Can't you even make the connections to that? I was not talking about the setup of this game in any detail other than "I hope it isn't as mindfucking as 180". If I'm getting you right, then you're basically saying I'm subtly trying to discourage the discussion of a game not related to this one.
Logically, shouldn't rolling eyes mean Sarcastic / Ironic? Sure, it makes small sense in some posts, but fuck it.

The odd targeting is the main reason why it pings, as it seems like an attempt to "get lowhanging fruit". I realise I didn't write that, but it was pretty obvious on an earlier response.
And a free clarification, I didn't say the two of you had a same mindset. #bad_at_english

---

Scum try to act town. People who don't know what the setup is are usually regarded at first glance as town. Think about it. Who's going to study the set up more, scum or town? Scum will so they know what they are up against. So asking about the setup and the way you did it looked fake to me. If you were genuinely confused why did you not say that in post 138 in your reponse? Post 138 from you looked like you were trying to avoid answering my question.

Dude, you did not mention 180 in your post 32. You are also not supposed to talk about on-going games so I'd be very cautious about making references to other games.

To me when you use this icon: , you are implying that you think the questions being asked are bad and therefore you are trying to discredit the information and/or the poster asking the question.

If you were not saying that lala and I had the same mind set, could you tell me what you were trying to convey? Are you simply trying to say that lala is playing carefree and I am playing careful?

[Bookitty]

Meh, I've been avoiding this game because I kind of lost my temper at Silverwolf and Cheetory.

I'm sorry if I said anything to hurt feelings or to make people feel bad. I voted SilverWolf out of temper, too, so that needs to go away.

UNVOTE:

I still think Cheetory is scummy. I think it's weird that SilverWolf used almost the same wording about my read on Ozgin that was used in my hood; this makes me nervous, but it's not really enough to vote on yet. If we do find scum in our hood, though, I will be revisiting this. I'm rereading Kitz because I was willing to dismiss the "wat" comment as not very telling, but recent posts have made me less dismissive of possible Kitz-scum.

And ANYONE who thinks that Varsoon buddying me means that I'm his scumbuddy needs to think about it more, because that's making no kind of sense. It doesn't mean I'm town, because I could be on the other scum team from Varsoon, but it should pretty well rule out the idea that we were on the same team. Pushing this nonsense is why I lost my temper in the first place, because it is counter to all known logic and reason.

I'm rapidly getting to this point in the game, though:

Spoiler:

[Drixx]

Oh ... you shouldn't expect logic and reason to be the primary tools being used by most players Boo. I went through that culture shock when I joined recently. Like ... incredibly smart people on this site ... and apparently almost none of them have any idea about Bayesian reasoning or any sort of decision theory. I'm continuously confused by it.

[Kitz]

you are implying that you think the questions being asked are bad

Absolutely not.

If you were genuinely confused why did you not say that in post 138 in your reponse?

I'm a nawb with my head in the clouds sometimes.

Why did you not ask for an elaborate answer? I did say I'm a newbie, and some other thing you probably won't get.

Are you simply trying to say that lala is playing carefree and I am playing careful?

Yes.

Dude, you did not mention 180 in your post 32. You are also not supposed to talk about on-going games so I'd be very cautious about making references to other games.

180 is already finished, gee. And here's 180 (quote, later post #160), which is before your vote.
Also note the word, Referrence.

180 was a freaking nightmare, quite a lot of players here was in it so a subtle reference.

[Cheetory6]

I probably overreacted to that string of posts. I read them all in a close time proximity and I already have tried to bury the hatchet a couple times. I think it only flared up again because House thought I made the joke and then tried to profit from the resulting drama. He, essentially, was angrily scumreading me for precisely the same reason I was scum reading him. That actually makes me feel way better about him as far as being town goes.

Asked you this before.
If you were starting to townread him, why were you
i) still voting him and
ii) why did you change your mind?

Meh, I've been avoiding this game because I kind of lost my temper at Silverwolf and Cheetory.

Have you ever lost your temper at people pushing you before as town?
Links please.
If you have them.

[Bookitty]

Sure. Hold up.

[Cheetory6]

Kitz.
Why are you overdefensive this game, where last game you were literally willing to selfvote yourself because you figured you would be a distraction?

[Bookitty]

I don't lose my temper often, but I think it's ONLY been when I was town and being pushed for what I regarded as unfair/dumb reasons.

Here's an example I remember:

Newbie 1551

Late game. Similar bad logic being used imo.

[Cheetory6]

What logic do you perceive as being bad from this game?
Do you have any more links?
I'd like 2-3 more if you wouldn't mind and it isn't too much trouble.

[Cheetory6]

Also, have you ever faked being angry as scum to try and disarm momentum on a wagon on you?

[Kitz]

Kitz.
Why are you overdefensive this game, where last game you were literally willing to selfvote yourself because you figured you would be a distraction?

I'm actually arguing, and responding.
Beside, if I didn't respond, what then?

As for distraction, well, it's based on how that game went.

While you're here Cheetory, what's your thought about my argument of Trolling VS Anti-Game?

[Bookitty]

I don't think I've lost my temper other than that recently.

Sorry. You're free to delve my meta all you like, but it just doesn't happen much. I don't recall it ever happening as scum.

Examples of bad logic:

My interactions with Titus were weird -- so... what's the point? She didn't flip as groupscum, so what does my believing in her as town at first have to do with the price of tea in China?

Varsoon tried to buddy me, so clearly he is my buddy -- um, what? How does THAT work, again?

[Bookitty]

Also, have you ever faked being angry as scum to try and disarm momentum on a wagon on you?

No, I don't believe so. Again, I've been around a LONG time so it could have happened but I don't remember it ever happening, so I'm going to say no.

[Cheetory6]

I'm actually arguing, and responding.
Beside, if I didn't respond, what then?

As for distraction, well, it's based on how that game went.

I'm just saying that the tone and manner in which you're responding to things feels different than it does here, would you agree? What about this game is different specifically that's warranting the difference?

While you're here Cheetory, what's your thought about my argument of Trolling VS Anti-Game?

Can you link a specific quote/post? I don't have much time right now. On my way out the door in a second.

My interactions with Titus were weird -- so... what's the point? She didn't flip as groupscum, so what does my believing in her as town at first have to do with the price of tea in China?

I think the point is more that the way your read developed on her is weird in a way that doesn't necessarily make as much sense to me as coming from town.
I know I was scum in NY180, but I legitimately thought that TSO was 100% a traitor on our scumteam because the way his read on claimed tracker ABR developed came across as being much more likely to be coming from a place of scum than town. And it turned out that he wasn't a traitor, but SK, so, still pretty much applies.
In my head you were either buddying Titus and then realized she was scum or you legitimately thought Titus was town the entire time and were just really okay with the outcome no matter how she flipped. I really fail to see how that's bad logic, Boo.

Varsoon tried to buddy me, so clearly he is my buddy -- um, what? How does THAT work, again?

Is this the point that I admitted I was wrong about? Or is it something that Silver has been saying?

[SilverWolf]

Bookitty-First of all, I learned the hard way to never discount anything as "scum would never do this" "they would never be partners with so and so because of this" because I've been burned very badly by it in the past. You and House and T S O worked together a lot in Delicious and in that game you were not very engaged in the game. Since this day started you have not been very engaged in the game at all. I voiced some suspicions I had in answer to Cheetory asking people about you. I was still MORE suspicious of Taly then you. I was hoping you'd engage me and discuss my suspicions but instead you reacted extremely defensively, brought up some neighborhood conspiracy theory BS, OMGUS voted me, said I was scum with Cheetory, said my scumread was fake, said you didn't care if you were lynched, used the "what do you care, you think I'm scum" defense and basically did not react like town under pressure. Also, your AtE reminded me A LOT of Delicious where you used AtE to great advantage against me as scum at one point.

The best point in your favor here is the fact that you got angry at being scumread for what you feel are bad reasons because I get really super frustrated if I feel I'm being scumread/wagoned for stupid shit. I've lost my cool over this plenty. But I usually always stick around and fight off those scumreads and address all the points. You didn't do that. You voted for me and left the thread.

I will look at your links and see if this is normal for you and do some meta. If anyone wants to see what I'm talking about, here's the Delicious game

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61070

[Kitz]

What about this game is different specifically that's warranting the difference?

Depression perhaps.
Altho, that game had everyone pinned me as scum the whole time to the point of tunnel, then whenever someone else got the attention, the blame got put on me.
I thought it was best to get rid of me while LYLO wasn't a thing yet.

Can you link a specific quote/post? I don't have much time right now. On my way out the door in a second.

This thingie.

Reason I vote Prolapse is because he just isn't doing anything. Even trolling is acceptable to some degree compared to being anti-game while being around. What has an anti-game to benefit? I can't think of anything other than to be a waste of space and a block. Would you want this player to have the same behavior to the end of the game?
Radiant is currently being a troll, and even took my obvious "he's already dead" bait into trolling. It's bad, yes, but there could be a reason, like a role that benefits mass attention at night or benefit from being lynched. Behavior could change, and it could be related to WIFOM.

I hope you see the pro-con thingie that's in my head regarding the situations.