In post 324, Gold Saucer wrote:the fact that he dropped it later reinforces it - he pointed it out bc he thought he was onto something, then dropped it when he stopped thinking it made sense. plus, in general, it fits with his conviction re: the push on me.
In post 322, sangres wrote:It was limited in content, yes, but it was enough content to make an alignment-indicative call. I would not have had as much of a problem with it if Muffin thought the reaction was null, either,
but calling it scummy seemed the most unbelievable
In post 316, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:I have thoughts on #132 but first I want to know whether the fact it was almost a direct copy of this was intentional or not.
it was
:>
if you've seen my other recent games, you'd notice that's not the first time I've stolen your phrases, either!
In post 316, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:#168 is the first post by pieguy that I actually thought looked town and is one of the main reasons I'm currently thinking he might be town. Similarly, I am not sure he's capable of writing #230 as scum.
I actually have an issue with this. how are you not seeing similarities between those posts and what I did in S&S?
In post 316, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:It's not that "overreacting" is a scum tell (and the fact you're simplifying it to that when it's pretty clear that's not what I was saying is one of the things I don't like about this stance you're taking on me).
I don't think overreaction is a bad way to summarize your thoughts on Pie-scum. You believed his reactions weren't genuine because they seemed to be aggressive without having a reason to be aggressive, with added incentive to do so because of his meta, which means you think that he's scummy because he's overreacting, no?
In post 323, sangres wrote:You challenged both of them about statements/stances, which is in keeping with your feeling that town wouldn't *know* either of their alignments.. What Muffin did looked more like taking sides.
You're talking about #119, prior to when the back-and-forth between them actually started, right? Like, when there weren't even sides to actually take on the argument that hadn't yet happened, right?
For the record, I didn't agree with everything gentlemen was writing about pieguy but I did in particular agree with the second point of 130.
In post 330, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:You're talking about #119, prior to when the back-and-forth between them actually started, right? Like, when there weren't even sides to actually take on the argument that hadn't yet happened, right?
It was fairly obvious that's where the tide of the game was going, unless you don't think you'd be able to pick up on that as scum.
In post 330, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:You're talking about #119, prior to when the back-and-forth between them actually started, right? Like, when there weren't even sides to actually take on the argument that hadn't yet happened, right?
It was fairly obvious that's where the tide of the game was going, unless you don't think you'd be able to pick up on that as scum.
That's not the point. You're saying my post was bad because I didn't weigh in on both sides of the argument but bork's was fine because he weighed in on both sides of the argument.
eh, fair enough. FTR, I was referring to this (directed towards the same person, even!).
Oh. That doesn't actually make me feel any different about those posts since it just tells me you don't know specifically what I'm referring to. If you are town, remind me to talk about this in post-game.
In post 323, sangres wrote:You challenged both of them about statements/stances, which is in keeping with your feeling that town wouldn't *know* either of their alignments.. What Muffin did looked more like taking sides.
You're talking about #119, prior to when the back-and-forth between them actually started, right? Like, when there weren't even sides to actually take on the argument that hadn't yet happened, right?
For the record, I didn't agree with everything gentlemen was writing about pieguy but I did in particular agree with the second point of 130.
-Nati
No, this is ffery and I think I have a different view on your interactions/stance. I was a little surprised when I saw that Nacho voted you, but I'm also thinking a direct approach here may shed more light than what I was going to do - shrug and wait for Nati to come play. I've mentioned Zenosaga already in the context of how pieguy reacted to GB. Your reaction to her in that game is reminiscent. Also, I've been thinking about the S&S game and was probably going to write a minor wall about it today. In a nutshell, the thing that feels different to me about pie/GB vs pie/Chandra has to do with their relative strength as town players/lynchability. Also, I don't remember Ceph going after pie before pie started pushing him (might have happened, but it had nothing to do with pie's manufactured scumcase on Ceph). Also, from my perspective, Pie's case bordered on nonsensical. I wasn't scumreading her for it - I mostly ignored it as noise, and made a couple passes at trying to point out where she was wrong.
Anyway, I'd kinda like for you to talk about what you think of the way their argument has evolved when you get a chance.
In post 330, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:You're talking about #119, prior to when the back-and-forth between them actually started, right? Like, when there weren't even sides to actually take on the argument that hadn't yet happened, right?
It was fairly obvious that's where the tide of the game was going, unless you don't think you'd be able to pick up on that as scum.
That's not the point. You're saying my post was bad because I didn't weigh in on both sides of the argument but bork's was fine because he weighed in on both sides of the argument.
In post 336, sangres wrote:Also, from my perspective, Pie's case bordered on nonsensical.
This and the actual way it happened are the main reasons I took issue with it in this game. I'm not so concerned about the particular target's lynchability. I don't really think there are many "lynchable" players in this game, and Cephrir wasn't exactly the easiest target to choose in Serum&Steel.
In post 336, sangres wrote:Anyway, I'd kinda like for you to talk about what you think of the way their argument has evolved when you get a chance.
Honestly, I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything writes about pieguy's arguments. I think pieguy's arguments are (were) based on either deliberately or accidentally misinterpreting a lot of things. I think the recent flip of pieguy's stance on gentlemen is something he likely would have done regardless of his alignment since there was a fair bit of pressure for him to stop doing what he was doing. I'll probably look at it again when I'm not half-asleep and think about how natural it looked.
Anyway, Nati has my current thoughts on the game. I'm going to sleep and prob won't be around again until *maybe* tomorrow night.
In post 328, sangres wrote:I don't think overreaction is a bad way to summarize your thoughts on Pie-scum. You believed his reactions weren't genuine because they seemed to be aggressive without having a reason to be aggressive, with added incentive to do so because of his meta, which means you think that he's scummy because he's overreacting, no?
hm. I think I was less than clear. I thought pie's case on Ceph bordered on the nonsensical. And paranoia about ceph is a thing, which made town-him a decent and low-risk target.
I obviously disagree with the case on GB, but it fits with what I know about town-pie that she'd react the way she did, and then double down and dig in.
In post 339, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Actually, before I go, are you and nacho actually discussing the game or is it a leaving-thoughts-for-the-other-to-read-later thing?
-Nati
We're not doing much of either yet. I was going to leave nacho thoughts in a PM yesterday but couldn't really gather my thoughts once I had time because meds. We've had about 5 lines of text each via chat or text message, some of it in real time. directionally, we're seeing the large picture similarly, and I feel like what we're seeing differently will work itself out naturally. It usually does, except when he's wrong and I'm right! Which doesn't actually happen all that often.
In post 328, sangres wrote:I don't think overreaction is a bad way to summarize your thoughts on Pie-scum. You believed his reactions weren't genuine because they seemed to be aggressive without having a reason to be aggressive, with added incentive to do so because of his meta, which means you think that he's scummy because he's overreacting, no?
would you say that my original angle that Regfan was saying I was scum "lying about what a push is" was reasonable? aka, if you agreed that was what he was doing would he be scum for it?
I don't have any intention to push it further; I'm asking for an entirely unrelated reason.
In post 316, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:- Did you actually think my issue with pieguy was as simple as "overreacting"?
- Do you think I'd push pieguy for something as simple as "overreacting" if I were scum?
In post 316, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:When I expressed a scum read on pieguy in touhou upick 3, for example, the reaction was basically "I acknowledge your reasoning and you're right but..." - which is the sort of thing I would have expected from pieguy-town here.
except in that game, your reasoning for scum reading me *was* correct. your reasoning was that I wasn't scum hunting, and it was right - I had not pushed anyone at that point in the game.
in this game, GB was pushing me for strategically lurking. which is incorrect - I wasn't posting bc I was busy.
you're saying you'd expect me to react the same way as TH 3. so why would you expect me to acknowledge I was doing something that I wasn't doing?
In post 316, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Also YOU know exactly why I think pieguy's response to the "posting elsewhere" thing made no sense; pieguy KNOWS that sort of thing doesn't necessarily come from scum, regardless of "context" (which gentlemen couldn't have had any idea about unless they're psychic and I do not believe Regfan is a psychic...
the context in this case was literally "she hasn't been posting in any other games". he would have known this as soon as he looked up my posts.
so why do you think he wouldn't have had any idea about it?
would you say that my original angle that Regfan was saying I was scum "lying about what a push is" was reasonable? aka, if you agreed that was what he was doing would he be scum for it?
I don't have any intention to push it further; I'm asking for an entirely unrelated reason.
I don't know if "reasonable" is the right word. It was understandable, though I disagreed with your take. (this is what in retrospect was wrong with your play in S&S - your push on ceph wasn't understandable and it was quite intractable/you wouldn't acknowledge the points against it)
- I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the second part of that. :/ When you say "that was what he was doing", what do you mean? Do you mean that holding that opinion about your posts would be innately scummy?
In post 316, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:- Why do you think I should have been town-reading pieguy as of post #119? Or at what point do you think I should have been town-reading him? For the record, I'm still not really town-reading him. Though I think it's a lot less likely he's scum than I previously did.
I think that it was more likely than not that Pieguyn was approaching the game from a town perspective than a scum one when she had the initial reaction she did to Regfan's post. I think the moment you decided that it was more likely that she was overreacting on page 6 as a play for town cred as opposed to a genuine reaction was where your play looked like it was coming from scum as opposed to town.
do you think that a potential Regfan-scum would have legitimate reason (for example, the one I pointed out in 276 - there might be another potential reason) to lie about my play?
I'm asking bc I actually think I'm seeing some parallels in what zmuffin did here to what he did in Varsoon in Touhou IN. having an objective view on whether what I was saying was understandable from an outside POV would help me think through it.
Just got back from a really busy day, it's 12.30am and I need to get up early tomorrow so I have no time to read or comment on anything. Reading and commenting will come (hopefully) some time tomorrow.
I was NK-immuned but lynched Day 1. :/
Record: Won 3 Lost 7 Draw 0 \\ Ongoing: 0 (Living: 0)
