Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Can't sleep.

I obviously disagree with the case on GB, but it fits with what I know about town-pie that she'd react the way she did

I think the case on gentlemen was every bit as nonsensical, actually, which is the biggest issue I have with pieguy.

except in that game, your reasoning for scum reading me *was* correct. your reasoning was that I wasn't scum hunting, and it was right - I had not pushed anyone at that point in the game.

in this game, GB was pushing me for strategically lurking. which is incorrect - I wasn't posting bc I was busy.

you're saying you'd expect me to react the same way as TH 3. so why would you expect me to acknowledge I was doing something that I wasn't doing?

I expected you to acknowledge that you were posting on site but that you had reasons for not posting here, and not to immediately push back and suggest it was scummy to think you were avoiding the thread because you were actually busy, even though there was no way to possibly know that prior to you explaining it.

The "context" isn't as important as you're making it out to be. This is ignoring the fact that there's a difference between not posting in other games (which may have lots and lots of pages) and not posting in a game that was fresh out of confirmation stage

I think that it was more likely than not that Pieguyn was approaching the game from a town perspective than a scum one when she had the initial reaction she did to Regfan's post

Why? Ignoring anything else you may think is town about pieguy, walk me through what was town about pieguy's approach to Regfan.

-Nati

[sangres]

If you get a chance read Reg's iso (he was only in the game for day 2) and my day 1 play (my first 207 posts - yeah I know - over 1000 post iso. I had multiple breakdowns in that game) and see if you think his read of me was understandable.

I maintain that anyone who actually knows what marks my towngame would not have misread me, but I totally understood someone who hasn't played much with me thinking I was scum after the first game day.

I'm giving you this instead of an answer because I have to go to the doctor right now, and I want to as objective an answer to your question as I can, which will involve another reread, from a different perspective. In the meanwhile, I think seeing what sorts of things regfan picked up as scummy about my day 1 play in that game *might* be a window into his mindset, method of forming reads, and method of pushing scumreads.

[sangres]

forgot to paste the gamelink into that post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59772

[sangres]

^^ to pie.

back soon-sh.

Sorry zmuffin. Will get to your posts in an hour or so.

[pieguyn]

The "context" isn't as important as you're making it out to be. This is ignoring the fact that there's a difference between not posting in other games (which may have lots and lots of pages) and not posting in a game that was fresh out of confirmation stage

...... except it is?

I know for a fact that, on several occasions, I've been in a game with someone who hadn't posted for a while. then I see them browsing the site and check their post history.

I never push them over it if I find that they haven't made any posts in the time since their last post in the game, excluding posts outside games. since I'm well aware that being online/posting outside mafia games takes nowhere as much time/effort as making game-related posts.

I mean, it's fairly obvious to me. legit don't know why you disagree.

I also disagree it takes less effort to post in a game in its early stages. to the contrary, I think the early stages of the game are where it takes the most time to develop reads and form opinions based on new posts. it's fairly easy to post in a game where you have fully formed reads on everyone already.

forgot to paste the gamelink into that post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59772

got it. should be able to look at it sometime later today/tomorrow.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

...... except it is?

No, it's really not. Maybe for some people, but even then, prodding someone about it is still better than not doing that and the fact that you automatically thought someone pointing out you'd posted elsewhere was scummy is what I have a hard time believing.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't think overreaction is a bad way to summarize your thoughts on Pie-scum. You believed his reactions weren't genuine because they seemed to be aggressive without having a reason to be aggressive, with added incentive to do so because of his meta, which means you think that he's scummy because he's overreacting, no?

Oh, right. Also, yeah, you could boil it down to that like you could boil pretty much any stance to one or two words. But the way you did it looked off to me because it looked like it was meant as a way of depreciating my stance so as to make it look like there was very little behind it.

Also, I'm trying to wrap my head around pieguy being your strongest town read in this game, even accounting for a difference of opinion on pieguy's entrance to this game. Because even if you did think his attack on Regfan looked town, I'm still not seeing it. Also, I think your stance on me is pretty bad since I don't really know why you think Iwould have taken some different stance and I don't really think the angle you're pushing makes any sense anyway, since a lot of is assuming I should have formed some stance on stuff that happened after the post you seem to have an issue with (like the fact that I apparently should have been more objective in the argument that wasn't even taking place at the time) - even though you now seem to be saying that no, I should have thought his initial reaction to Regfan was town (even though it was null at best, if you look at it sideways with squinty eyes maybe). I'm beginning to think you're using pieguy as a crutch to attack me because (a) you can't figure out a good way to attack me otherwise, and (b) you can't figure out a good way to attack other players.

Anyway, going to try and get some sleep now.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Oh, and just because I wanna be able to point back to this in post-game and brag about my reads.

Calling a Yuriko-Nacho scum team right now.

If that's not the team, this post never happened and no one ever read it.

-Nati

[pieguyn]

No, it's really not. Maybe for some people, but even then, prodding someone about it is still better than not doing that and the fact that you automatically thought someone pointing out you'd posted elsewhere was scummy is what I have a hard time believing.

I hardly think pulling it up, when his vote was on me at that point, and saying it made them feel more comfortable with their vote has the same effect as "xxx hasn't posted yet; want to hear from them". do you disagree?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't disagree, but that's still missing the point

If you are scum-reading someone and notice them posting elsewhere (whether in games or not), you can choose to point it out (in which case, you're probably going to not that it doesn't make you feel any better about them) or you can choose to not bring it up (which is just dumb, IMO)

-Nati

[sangres]

Also, I'm trying to wrap my head around pieguy being your strongest town read in this game, even accounting for a difference of opinion on pieguy's entrance to this game.

Who should my strongest townread be?

[sangres]

I'm beginning to think you're using pieguy as a crutch to attack me because (a) you can't figure out a good way to attack me otherwise, and (b) you can't figure out a good way to attack other players.

You should know better on both. If I wanted to attack you as scum, I would vote you because you haven't done anything particularly town yet and leave it at that. If I wanted to attack someone else, I still have options otherwise in Yuriko/Soft-Spoken/BBMolla.

[Soft-spoken]

holy shit page 15 fuck you guys. its my job to be the spam poster.... uhhhh. awk.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Who should my strongest townread be?

I would have thought you'd have a stronger read on, say, bork-hydra because I'm nowhere near as familiar with them as you are and I'm pretty sure they're town and they're not even my strongest town read tbh so yeah. I think you're

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

er... Submitted early.

I think you're bullshitting the strength of your pieguy town read.

I would vote you because you haven't done anything particularly town yet and leave it at that.

That would be an even worse angle than your current push, tbh, and I probably would have driven you into the ground if you even tried that.

But yes, your only other real options would be pushing Yuriko (who hasn't really done anything town but you have a very awkward town read on for setup spec which doesn't make a whole lot of sense), Soft-Spoken (for... not posting, I guess?) or bbMolla (even though I don't think you could actually make a case on bbMolla).

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also, no. No, you wouldn't do that as scum. You would do what you're currently doing, which is find some dumb angle and try to push it.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Like none of those alternatives that you would supposedly do as scum are things you would actually do as scum specifically because they're all so weak that they'd be worse than what you're currently doing, so no. Just no.

-Nati

[Soft-spoken]

im only on page 5, so far most of what i see is meta-speculation from a circle-jerk that i am not a membership of, and a few clumsy posts that stood out to me

VOTE: Soft-Spoken

I don't think he actually just woke up. I think he's lying. Lying scum.

i really hope this is a joke... looks like a clumsy rvs that you tried to attach meaning too.

i had no reason to lie about waking up as scum. lying without a good reason is poor scum play... you should know by now that i am not a poor scum player

how does this setup change scumhunting in your opinion?

i thought this would be obvious. most legitimate scum-tells are invalid in this setup. multiple people have come in and acted like this isnt the case, but then i have to wonder what you think a scumtell is.

the only legitimate scum-tell that can be read into considering the circumstances of this setup... preservation motive.

based on?

-b

I'm hedging my bets!

If they don't turn out to be scum then that's good coz theyre probs town atm
If they do then it would be really funny coz team mafia etc!

looks like a backpedal

[Soft-spoken]

ok im seeing a shitload of wall of text posts... will you forgive me for saying tl;dr


as of p6 pie is town. in fact, gb vs pie looks tvt. ima come back later and skim through p 6-15

[sangres]

aaand I'm back.

how does this setup change scumhunting in your opinion?

i thought this would be obvious. most legitimate scum-tells are invalid in this setup. multiple people have come in and acted like this isnt the case, but then i have to wonder what you think a scumtell is.

the only legitimate scum-tell that can be read into considering the circumstances of this setup... preservation motive.

I disagree. I'll say something about why I disagree *after* the person I asked this question answers it.

[sangres]

do you think that a potential Regfan-scum would have legitimate reason (for example, the one I pointed out in 276 - there might be another potential reason) to lie about my play?

I'm asking bc I actually think I'm seeing some parallels in what zmuffin did here to what he did in Varsoon in Touhou IN. having an objective view on whether what I was saying was understandable from an outside POV would help me think through it.

p-edit: @ffery

It would have to be an extremely plausible lie to make it worth the potential backlash. You're referring to a game I didn't play or follow, so I'm not sure what parallel you're drawing.

I'm feeling cranky and low-blood-sugary and right now I'm not seeing a lot of benefit to trying to work through whatever this is with you. It didn't look quite as bottomless pit when I first saw the questions. pot of coffee is brewing and I might feel more sanguine (this joke never gets old) about the topic in a bit, but meanwhile I want to dig through the zmuffin/nacho convo and see what I think about it.

[Gold Saucer]

I've somewhat skimmed from where I left off last night and have some thoughts but there are some things I'm going to hold on to because I'm interested in how those involved respond to some things. Also, I'm tired.

Also, don't expect much if anything from me until tomorrow night when I get back home. Caled and bpc are coming into Chicago and I'll be busy playing games and tourist.

So, adieu!

[Imperium]

Who should my strongest townread be?

I would have thought you'd have a stronger read on, say, bork-hydra because I'm nowhere near as familiar with them as you are and I'm pretty sure they're town and they're not even my strongest town read tbh so yeah. I think you're

I can find scumgames from borkhydra that look pretty similar to this one (Tales of You). I can't find scumgames from pie that look anything like this. Can you?

[sangres]

Who should my strongest townread be?

I would have thought you'd have a stronger read on, say, bork-hydra because I'm nowhere near as familiar with them as you are and I'm pretty sure they're town and they're not even my strongest town read tbh so yeah. I think you're

I can find scumgames from borkhydra that look pretty similar to this one (Tales of You). I can't find scumgames from pie that look anything like this. Can you?

[sangres]

er... Submitted early.

I think you're bullshitting the strength of your pieguy town read.

I would vote you because you haven't done anything particularly town yet and leave it at that.

That would be an even worse angle than your current push, tbh, and I probably would have driven you into the ground if you even tried that.

But yes, your only other real options would be pushing Yuriko (who hasn't really done anything town but you have a very awkward town read on for setup spec which doesn't make a whole lot of sense), Soft-Spoken (for... not posting, I guess?) or bbMolla (even though I don't think you could actually make a case on bbMolla).

-Nati

"I have town reads on most active players. I believe RBD hasn't posted anything unfakeable so far. Vote: RBD"
What is your problem with that vote?

"I think Yuriko has been posting some terrible setup spec in order to avoid actually scumhunting"
What is your problem with that vote?