Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Soft-spoken]

and lesbi honest you coulda claimed daystart and it wouldnt have mattered... (assuming you can self target) leaving it open ended as a night-wifom doesnt decrease the odds of you putting out a fire after claiming

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Bork, seriously, talk to your other head about my slot. That's all I'm going to say.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I need to look at the Drake/Quilford/pieguyn trio tomorrow. I still think Regfan has a lot of reservations with pieguyn's play.

[sangres]

should we end this? more to talk about?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I left Regfan a message asking him if there's anything we need to do or discuss in the thread before we lay down the hammer but he hasn't responded yet. He's probably still asleep.

Could it be possible to wait until he comes on?

[sangres]

that's why I asked. Sure, will wait.

[pieguyn]

I'd recommend Yuriko not being at L-1 for the time being if there's still stuff we want to do this game day.

bbl

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm here and caught up and weirdly don't actually have a message from Empire so skype must be fucked at the moment? I'm fairly happy for the day to end, think we can re-read for interaction and analysis during the night phase, not really much discussion that can't wait until tomorrow as it is.

Glad that we were right on Yuriko being scum, partially think we should have been risky and lynched without asking for a counterclaim mainly because scum fish out that PR there 100% of the time and the manner she claimed wasn't even remotely genuine but meh should still be an easy win from here.

@Bork -

I don't really understand either of your Post 964 or Post 965, pretty much my point is that Nachos saying that he thinks Pies reaction and response towards us is a town-tell for the reason that he thinks it's too big a 'risk' for Pie to do as scum (The risk being it garners attention towards him and leaves us as an 'enemy' of him). I'm saying that if Pies scum with someone like Yuriko (And look; Yurikos scum, shock, horror!) then he has a lot of motivation to make a post like that as scum; motivation being that we'd have nailed the scum team very early on and that almost everyone was already on the right track at that point, doing something to de-credit us while subsequently hoping to be town-read via the reaction would be optimal play. What about that do you disagree with/don't understand?

Have you read #879?

Yes, I have and I don't like it at all, while I get that there wasn't a lot of resistance on your end to answer questions it shouldn't be needed for people to ask them to you to for you to state or elaborate on your thoughts and reads and I don't think you've really done that voluntarily at all.

I literally have no idea which post of mine you're referring to when you say "doubt re; us", given that that phrase appears in approximately zero of my posts.

Here:

Starting to get a bit wary of GB.

Where did I attempt to compare your read on me with my read on you?

Here:

A

Starting to get a bit wary of GB.

Want this explained in detail please - think you've seen both Empire/myself as scum/town enough to know that we're town here.

You've seem me as scum/town enough to know that I'm town here, hasn't stopped you from having doubts has it?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Huh okay a bunch of messages just came through at once on skype, the fuck.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok, does anyone want to SPEAK THEIR LAST WORDS before I lay down this hammer?

[sangres]

so Nacho

when you get a chance, talk to me about

BBM

Ok to assume this is now moot?

[pieguyn]

Ok to assume this is now moot?

yep

in other news, I want to say RBD is likely town off of Yuriko's read on them. I realize it's objectively fakeable, but I think that kind of read coming from newb-scum is more likely to be on a townie than a scum partner - she's not pointing out problems with their actual posts because she has trouble finding legitimate angles of attack to push on them and doesn't want to risk tripping over herself making a bullshit push. I'm not sure about this, though.

[pieguyn]

in either case, I don't really have anything I want to do that can't wait until tomorrow.

bbl for real

[Gold Saucer]

@Bork - I don't really understand either of your Post 964 or Post 965, pretty much my point is that Nachos saying that he thinks Pies reaction and response towards us is a town-tell for the reason that he thinks it's too big a 'risk' for Pie to do as scum (The risk being it garners attention towards him and leaves us as an 'enemy' of him). I'm saying that if Pies scum with someone like Yuriko (And look; Yurikos scum, shock, horror!) then he has a lot of motivation to make a post like that as scum; motivation being that we'd have nailed the scum team very early on and that almost everyone was already on the right track at that point, doing something to de-credit us while subsequently hoping to be town-read via the reaction would be optimal play. What about that do you disagree with/don't understand?

I mean I read your post, I know what you're saying and I'm not claiming I don't understand a thing.

There are two different kinds of statements here:

1) I think Pie would do X as scum.
2) I think Pie is scum because she did X.

I am saying that making a statement in the form of 1) is fallacious - you haven't attributed anything as to why she would do X as scum makes her

more likely

to be scum than not, because you

haven't even addressed her doing/not doing such a thing as town.

Saying "I think a person might do X as scum" doesn't give you license to say "I think a person is scum because they did X" unless you don't think they'd do it as town and you've made no such claim.

The Yuriko thing is just me stating that I have no idea what she has to do with this. I still don't.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Bork, seriously, talk to your other head about my slot. That's all I'm going to say.

Ok.

-b

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm going to get some coffee and food and then I'll hammer if no one else has anything pressing left.

[Gold Saucer]

Nachos saying that he thinks Pies reaction and response towards us is a town-tell for the reason that he thinks it's too big a 'risk' for Pie to do as scum

Also I'll go back and look but that wasn't my internal impression of what Nacho was saying. I thought he thinks it's a towntell for pie cause of pie-specific reasons

-b

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also I'll go back and look but that wasn't my internal impression of what Nacho was saying. I thought he thinks it's a towntell for pie cause of pie-specific reasons

Below just one of Sangres mentions of the 'town-tell' from Pies early posts that Nachos elaborated on; he constantly mentions that he doesn't think Pie would make that sort of response since it's a huge 'risk' - I'm explaining why I think he would particularly in the instance where Yuriko is his partner (And Yurikos relevance to this is quite simple and obvious and something I thought I made clear; If it's a Pie+Yuriko scum-team then all of the easy to read players/hydras ect. are town and scum are instantly in a bad position, everyone was FoSing one of Pie/Yuriko at the time of Pies first post and we'd scum read the both of them, if the scum team is Pie+Yuriko there then scum are in a really really really bad position in which case making a huge aggressive push back on us to de-credit us and hope to be town-read via it makes a LOT of sense). And I've

constantly

stated that I find it hard to believe that the lines that Pie was pushing forward, the strength of his read and his aggressive is something I have difficulty seeing from town,

constantly

so you saying I've never mentioned that is god damn awful by you. I'll ditto Empire here in that you need to talk with Tammy about this, she'll likely be able to explain my thought process much better to you.

my initial thoughts re: that push was that it was a strange line in the sand (and a horribly horribly horribly horribly early one) for pieguy to draw. when you make a push like that as scum, you're putting all of your eggs, all of your hopes and dreams, into a basket. when you push a player like that as scum, they will scum read you pretty much every time, and it's very very hard to make that suspicion go away after you make a push like that, especially after you give up your power after being inevitably forced to town read the slot. these risks are compounded exponentially with the setup. if you do successfully mislynch them by some stupid, stupid, miracle they are still alive forever to fuck you over. if you get them to give you a little space, fucking sucks for you because can't kill them the first night and killing them in the second is a massive waste. I didn't think pieguy would be willing to take a massive risk as scum so early.

[Gold Saucer]

And I've constantly stated that I find it hard to believe that the lines that Pie was pushing forward, the strength of his read and his aggressive is something I have difficulty seeing from town, constantly so you saying I've never mentioned that is god damn awful by you.

Dude, chill. I'm just trying to work some shit out and if you see something that I've obviously just missed just point me at it instead of calling my play awful

-b

[Gold Saucer]

(And Yurikos relevance to this is quite simple and obvious and something I thought I made clear; If it's a Pie+Yuriko scum-team then all of the easy to read players/hydras ect. are town and scum are instantly in a bad position, everyone was FoSing one of Pie/Yuriko at the time of Pies first post and we'd scum read the both of them, if the scum team is Pie+Yuriko there then scum are in a really really really bad position in which case making a huge aggressive push back on us to de-credit us and hope to be town-read via it makes a LOT of sense)

the partner would have to presuppose that Yuriko was just gonna pretty much curl up and die from the start and that's not something that was even remotely obvious to me was going to happen at that point in the game

-b

[Gentlemen Bastards]

the partner would have to presuppose that Yuriko was just gonna pretty much curl up and die from the start and that's not something that was even remotely obvious to me was going to happen at that point in the game

-b

I'm not Regfan but, um, seriously? That would have been obvious to me in the pre-game, let alone after her initial posts.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Like, think about it, you're scum in a game with four hydras that include transparently town players like myself, Regfan, Tammy, ffery, etc and your partner is a newbie named YurikoJasmine. How do you not think she's going to fold immediately?

[Gold Saucer]

And I've constantly stated that I find it hard to believe that the lines that Pie was pushing forward, the strength of his read and his aggressive is something I have difficulty seeing from town, constantly so you saying I've never mentioned that is god damn awful by you

Ok, let me try again.

The 'strength of the read' stuff (which I've really felt is the linchpin of what you've been saying) I am willing to accept as an argument even if I think it's semantic and subjective and therefore hard to really both convey from your end and empathize with on mine.

Aggressiveness I strongly feel is null; town and scum players can get aggressive from even being mentioned as being scumread. The worse (in the target's mind) the reasons are possibly even the greater the reaction.

Like my gut even wants to townread you from blowing up at me like this because you're more likely to just get pissed that I don't like your ideas as town than you are as scum.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

the partner would have to presuppose that Yuriko was just gonna pretty much curl up and die from the start and that's not something that was even remotely obvious to me was going to happen at that point in the game

-b

I'm not Regfan but, um, seriously? That would have been obvious to me in the pre-game, let alone after her initial posts.

Like, think about it, you're scum in a game with four hydras that include transparently town players like myself, Regfan, Tammy, ffery, etc and your partner is a newbie named YurikoJasmine. How do you not think she's going to fold immediately?

Uh, I don't feel like I understand anything about someone's personality merely from the fact that they're new to the site (and she really isn't, she just doesn't play much)

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm still going through Yuriko's games but I already found some really neat stuff that I am holding onto until she dives into this game a bit more. One thing I do want to point out though is that she seemed to have absolutely no problem doing some good old fashioned, low information D1 scumhunting as both alignments so I don't really understand where her complaints about the setup re: inability to scumhunt are coming from.

I mean you even said this; it's not like she just literally has no idea how to play or has a history of clamming up as scum

I think we're kind of getting away from anything pertinent with this

-b