MINI 1688 — BEES!!! — game over

[Fro99er]

Hi Bella!

Hi Glork!

Hi UT!

VOTE: lalaladucks because I like frogs better.

[Fro99er]

I'm liking where my vote is at. Ducky is going to have to do something towny for me, other than post useless stuff.

Bella and Bob (fuck me there's two Bob's in this game ... Bicephalous Bob) have been quite towny so far. Especially Bella for the proper questioning of KayP and the recognition of Glork's naked vote.

[Fro99er]

So are we officially out of RVS?

RVS is over now

But what would be even better, is if

you

gave

your

thoughts on if we are/were (at the time of your post) out of RVS, instead of polling the town.

Bella, what is strange about ducks posts, just lack of engagement? Anything else?

This is directed at Bella, but I've made a comment about ducky too. For me, yes it's lack of engagement, combined with ducky's meta (for example: this game or this game) where they are town and have early posts that at least resemble productive content (although still fun and lighthearted). Unfortunately there are no completed scum games in their wiki, so I cannot find if this lack of productive posting is a scumpattern of theirs or not. Yes, this is an early read, without a ton to go by other than lack of content and some meta to back it up (no, meta isn't the sole reason), and is a read of mine that could possibly change based off how the game progresses. But for now, I like where my vote stands until they can start to post something useful. This is good pressure.

Looking forward to hearing answers from KayP.

I think we all would.

KayP does need to explain what they make of the L-2.

I will say the L-2 to me seems like a bit of RVS (my vote was RVS, but now its serious), combined with some "ZOMG WAGON!", and a vote or two I don't full understand. I also don't believe ducky is suddenly going to get quicklynched, because that would just be idiotic for anyone to do. I believe Bob Loblaw's was a "ZOMG WAGON vote!" based off his choo choo comment. TTH's vote was suspicious, with an unannounced L-2, but then they asked to activate a triple voting power. I don't know what to make of that as I've never played a game with multiple voting power. I'm assuming it is real, because Marquis responded to it, but haven't seen the triple vote yet.

I also look forward to hearing from you about some of the players in this game besides "I like their posts" as you state below

I like Bella's and Green Crayons posts.

What do you like about Bella and GC's posts? How do you feel about my posts?

I'm slightly perturbed that your post only scratched at the surface level.

[Fro99er]

EBWOP: looks like KayP is addressing the L-2. Will read up on that.

[Fro99er]

Should the burden of proof not be on yourself to show why duck is town, not on duck to prove she's not mafia?

I don't believe the goal is to show people are town. The goal is to find scum, so I'm trying to push on Ducky (and now Kitty) to see how they respond so I can start to understand their mindset in order to sort their alignment, instead of letting Ducky coast by with pointless posts, and Kitty with a surface level post.

[Fro99er]

This is directed at Bella, but I've made a comment about ducky too. For me, yes it's lack of engagement, combined with ducky's meta (for example: this game or this game) where they are town and have early posts that at least resemble productive content (although still fun and lighthearted). Unfortunately there are no completed scum games in their wiki, so I cannot find if this lack of productive posting is a scumpattern of theirs or not. Yes, this is an early read, without a ton to go by other than lack of content and some meta to back it up (no, meta isn't the sole reason), and is a read of mine that could possibly change based off how the game progresses. But for now, I like where my vote stands until they can start to post something useful. This is good pressure.

Hmm. So, basically, you've seen ducky play differently in the past as a townsperson, and this makes you think the different play here is somehow noteworthy or alignment-related? I still feel like there's very little to go on right now and judging someone's posts this early based on content level is a big jump to make. It's especially concerning because you yourself only made

one post

just saying hello to various people and voting randomly, and your second post was demanding better stuff from ducky. That's a bit hypocritical.

My push on ducky is to get them to start providing content. I actually mentioned it's an early read and is very possible it will change based on how they react. But this is a good spot for pressure now. The meta is *supporting* my pressure as something they don't typically do as town. It is not my *sole* reason for voting them.

[Fro99er]

your second post was demanding better stuff from ducky. That's a bit hypocritical.

My second post had content in it. It explained WHY I was voting ducky, and it explained WHY I thought Bella and BBob (especially bella) were making good points/posts.

[Fro99er]

Can you explain a bit more what about ducky's posts make you think "lack of engagement"? I think I get what you mean, but that phrase is sort of just vague.

Do I need to ISO ducky to show why this is lack of engagement? Fine.

Spoiler: Ducky first post

I'll quack you!

VOTE: THE BzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzULGE

A vote. Can't tell if this is RVS or some kind of meta with Bulge.

Spoiler: Ducky second post

omigosh sah popular tysm guise I <3 you all!!

fro99er, frogs are sticky and icky!

have you seen DRK's GTKAS? omahlord o.0

Commenting on their L-2 as being popular, but saying nothing about it other than that. The rest is just silly reply stuff in response to my RVS vote on ducky.

Spoiler: Ducky third post

toot toot

Um. What?

Spoiler: Ducky fourth post

Heaven truly knows that thou art false as hell

Who is false as hell?

I mean, KayP, what do you see as engaging from ducky, in a pro-town productive way (if you were paying attention, I also didn't just say engaging, but also used the word productive, meaning I want ducky to provide something productive)? Sure, she's "engaging" us by posting cryptic things that I can't begin to interpret even if I wanted to (or if there was anything to interpret at all), but other than that, it's a bunch of fluff posts. If she wants to clarify the meaning of some of these posts, that would be spectacular.

[Fro99er]

Oh, sure, the goal is to find mafia. I agree there, that much is obvious. But given statistics, the person you are pushing/voting/arguing with is MORE LIKELY to be town than mafia since there are way more town than mafia in games. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you seem to be STARTING from a mindset of "this person is mafia, prove me otherwise" instead of "this person is statistically likely to be town, unless proven otherwise".

I'm a statistician by trade, I don't need help with statistics, but thank you.

I'm not starting from a mindset of "this person is mafia" I'm starting from the mindset of "I'd like to have some productive talk from this person, because then I can start to understand their mindset". Productive talk is typically pro-town.

If I started with the mindset ducky is town, I'd have to start with the mindset that everyone is town, which would be silly. The goal is to find scum, not to assume everyone starts as town.

Anyway - I'd like to hear from both Ducky and Kitty, as I mentioned earlier. (lots of animals involved in this game!)

[Fro99er]

My point in this is that your reasoning behind considering the vote "serious" seems flimsy when it could be applied to you, me, and probably the vast majority of the playerlist.

My vote became serious when Ducky provided FOUR posts with lack of content. If you think my second, third, and fourth post was lack of engagement, I can't help you. You are just making stuff up now. Ducky had four posts with a complete lack of productive content.

Your early posts also had content (mentioning the L-2 in your second post, but your third post and now your push on me is even better content)! Bella's and Green Crayons and BBob's early posts also had good content!

This is why I'm pressuring ducky. Now we're just getting into stupid bickering mode.

[Fro99er]

like

I'm all for being fuck rvs

but fro99ger is like "HEY YALL how about some meta seriousness up in this thread SUPER SERIOUS FACE"

ugh stop it you scumbag

I tend to take this game pretty seriously, even more so than I should at times. I'm usually the one with the most posts or damn near close to it in most of my games. It gives me something to do when I sit on my ass watching sports and/or drinking booze. Usually to the point of pissing people off about how much I post (I see I've already accomplished that).

[Fro99er]

He used meta, 'coz KayP was talking about it, no?

To be fair, I was the one to bring up meta, in my response to Kitty Galore.

Speaking of. She asked you a question as well.

[Fro99er]

^^(Kitty galore asked Bella a question, if that wasn't clear)

[Fro99er]

@Frog, yeah, that's what I meant, sorry. Also, I've answered Kitty's questions

My apologies. You have. Missed it.

[Fro99er]

it's because I think he's scum

sorry if that was unclear

I'd love it if you stated a case of WHY you think I'm scum, rather than a drive-by vote.

[Fro99er]

The TTH thing sucks.

What does this mean?

[Fro99er]

@Frog, she was obviously joking, otherwise lalal would be dead. Also, 'coz your vote was on her, she would be extra dead. So saying it was suspicious, while still supporting the wagon, is bad.

What? I had no idea it was a joke. Seriously. I'm fairly new to this site, and thought that a triple vote power could be a thing. How was it obvious she was joking? I read it as she could vote three different people, but apparently you read it as she could vote ducky 3 times.

I never said the triple vote was suspicious, did I? I said I didn't know what to make of it. I said the unnanounced L-2 (which was before the triple comment) was suspicious.

[Fro99er]

Fro99, mate, are you joking. I will not be confined by meta tyvm and anyway

I never said I'd confine you by meta. I said it was a *supporting* reason, not the main reason.

it would be more accurate if you looked at what I was posting closer to the end of that Open X/Y because ~wheeeee~

I will go look at this, but not sure what you're getting at.

I will UNVOTE: for now. I think I need to take a step back.

[Fro99er]

This is because I literally never role scumsies

OMFG I mentioned that!

That's also why I said meta was simply a BACKUP to my reason to vote you. It was NOT my reason to vote you. I can also see you posted stuff of content that clearly went over my head, hence my unvote.

[Fro99er]

Spoiler: Ducky third post

toot toot

Um. What?

Spoiler: Ducky fourth post

Heaven truly knows that thou art false as hell

Who is false as hell?

<3 TTH <3 is much more false than Desdemona (from Othello and this is an easy feat since poor Desdy is actually v good) and that triple vote was obviously a har har joke.

[snip]

Have I sufficiently clarified?

1. KayP pointed out your "false as hell" was in response to TTH, and Bella pointed out TTH was making a joke. All of that went over my head and I'm fucking sorry, I'm still new to this. Like I said, I seriously thought a multi-vote could be a thing in this game and had no idea it is/was a joke.
2. You have clarified, yes.

[Fro99er]

@Mod: I am officially on V/LA from Monday through Thursday (6/18) because of all day work meetings but I will try to respond in the evenings anyway. Except Tuesday evening. USA women's world cup (GO USA!)

(I already told Marquis this before the game started)

[Fro99er]

So apparently I got out of my Monday and Tuesday meetings. Still have work, but should be able to be a bit more active than planned. Wed/Thurs will still be tough to be (BEE) active.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: UT

The reason for that lala vote was pretty bad. Even I pointed out they had no scum games.

Why are you sheep voting Bella?

[Fro99er]

also your response to my lalavote is pretty much... completely missing the point? willfully perhaps?

I have no idea what point I'm missing.

[Fro99er]

oh I thought you meant, like, putting a defibrillator to a living person... which makes 'em dead.

Defibs are for reviving dead people.

I just found the phrasing obnoxious

that was literally all that was there

Fair enough. I'll accept this.

I want Kitty to respond. 40 was weaksauce, as I pointed out. The Shadoxx case is good too. I still think Bella's town.

[Fro99er]

Whoops UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadoxx

[Fro99er]

That would put Shadoxx at L-3

[Fro99er]

I'm going to defend Bella here for a sec.

She first townread me all the way up until 89 where she makes the comment about the triple vote being a joke, and the fact that I remained on the wagon with a triple vote would mean ducky is dead, and that's why it was bad.

When I replied I didn't realize the triple vote was a joke, and I thought "activating the triple vote" meant she would keep her L-2 on ducky, and then vote two

other

people, bella realized how I could have missed that as a joke, and said she mis-read my mis-read.

I think at that point, she had no reason to press harder, given she was town reading me already and satisfied by my misunderstanding of the triple vote.


For the KayP thing, Bella had already set up her KayP vote in 72 and 81 as well, so it wasn't completely out of left field, although the Glork post did probably push her to actually use her vote.

[Fro99er]

You know, the more wine I drink, the more I really want to take a defibrillator to the ducks wagon.

It's little, throwaway things like Post 117 that bug me. I make a raspberry after reading those kinds of posts. The Bella town read was really half-assed and you just kind of piggy-backed on KayP's Shadox case.

I mean, GC and myself also piggy-backed on the Shadox case. There isn't much more of a case to build other than what KayP laid out in 132, what with all of two Shadoxx posts at this point.

I think the bandwagon is good. Let's get Shadoxx to actually do something.

[Fro99er]

It still does not follow.

"Frogger saw X as suspicious. Frogger continued to push wagon despite suspicion X."

I also noted that the ducky wagon wasn't going to turn into a quicklynch in the very same post I was suspicious of TTH's vote despite being on a wagon with TTH. Because at that point, all I wanted to do was get ducky to talk, so I was comfortable with the situation, knowing a quicklynch wasn't happening.

I also don't believe ducky is suddenly going to get quicklynched, because that would just be idiotic for anyone to do.

I mean, did you honestly believe that there was a chance Ducky would get quicklynched there? Of course not.

[Fro99er]

I guess it depends on the severity of the read but when I view a vote as suspicious it usually stems from the idea that the player being voted for isn't actually scum.

Understood, and I'd agree if it wasn't, oh, a couple hours into the game.

But at that point in the game, I was just trying to get ducky to talk after having 4 of what I incorrectly thought were useless posts. And you know what? Her next three posts were much better! I explained I wasn't worried about a quickhammer or anything, so TTH's suspicious vote didn't much matter at that point because a quicklynch wasn't happening.

[Fro99er]

I know it's not what anyone wants to hear, but the Shadox case is pretty trumped up and not really deserving of the attention or the wagon it's getting.

So what are we supposed to do? Let the newbie sit there and do nothing as we approach 3 days from deadline? He

has

posted today...but not in this thread.

[Fro99er]

My point was, if people don't push on Shadoxx (or Kitty), we're just going to let them sit there and do fuck all in a quick game. It's one thing to go V/LA or just completely flake. It's another thing to be active elsewhere yet not post in this thread.

[Fro99er]

(directed at GC)

[Fro99er]

My point was, if people don't push on Shadoxx (or Kitty), we're just going to let them sit there and do fuck all in a quick game. It's one thing to go V/LA or just completely flake. It's another thing to be active elsewhere yet not post in this thread.

That's cool and all, but my point is is that you appear to agree with TTH's basic premise (the Shadox wagon is bad for the reasons previous articulated ITT), but that you're maintaining a Shadox vote now simply as a lurker vote.

I'm trying to figure out what suspicions you are still embracing, and what suspicions you're dropping.

1) Do not agree with TTH's premise.
2) I'm pointing out an additional reason other than the case KayP made (that you are citing as well, and that I admitted I (along with you) was sheeping in post 195) to keep the pressure on Shadoxx.

[Fro99er]

Oh, we are allowed to mention this? I thought we couldn't mention this because of ongoing games rules...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30908

OKAY: "Zoraster is alive in 4 games and is posting in those games, but he hasn't posted here in 3 days."

All I did was mention Shadoxx had posted today, but not in this thread. Seems within the rules to me, no?

[Fro99er]

@Mod: I am officially on V/LA from Monday through Thursday (6/18) because of all day work meetings but I will try to respond in the evenings anyway. Except Tuesday evening. USA women's world cup (GO USA!)

(I already told Marquis this before the game started)

So apparently I got out of my Monday and Tuesday meetings. Still have work, but should be able to be a bit more active than planned. Wed/Thurs will still be tough to be (BEE) active.

Will have lower activity until Thurs eve.

Also

@Mod can you prod Shadoxx? They posted today, but not in this thread but it's BEEn 48 hours

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

like most of shadox post and the part I dont like is nitpicky

will write more tomorrow evening when done w workstuff phone posting

[Fro99er]

What, exactly, did you like about Shaddox’s post?

I said I'll tell when I'm back from phone posting tonight.

[Fro99er]

Long wall post warning!

I'm working my way down Shadoxx post for highlights of what I agreed with, what I am being nitpicky about, and where I want to add more to key portions of the discussion after Shadoxx had his post 294.

@Bellaphant, your playing extremely pro-town at this point. All of your posts have been in-depth and contributive to the town. You have performed exactly as a post-card townie (gods help us if you are Mafia-alignment.). Your playing very similar to a player in my last game, Glitch, who not only was VT, but also provided posts with lots of detail and criticism of all players, rather than focussing on one player (what I call tunnel-visioning, which I can do a lot of the time, something I’m trying to rectify). You also have acted skeptical at some points, and questions peoples votes (if not in RVS).

This is a fair assessment of Bella up to this post 294, but I disagree slightly. Bella had started pretty towny for me. She pushed in the right places early with a good line of questioning of KayP to get us out of RVS, and pushed KayP for a reachy/vague post 41 (and Bella backs up her reasons in post 72), as well as the fact that GC pushed KayP into voting me. Bella makes a push on me about being on the early ducky wagon while I was finding TTH's L-2 suspicious, which is even more towny of her to realize she was misunderstanding my interpretation of my misunderstanding of TTH's triple vote joke. She then votes KayP, albeit after prodding from Glork. But it wasn't without precedence, as UT seemed to imply in 231.

But where Bella starts to worry me is she then moves her vote on to ducky for lack of content, but otherwise goes unexplained. This felt opportunistic, and at that point ducky had started to actually provide content (see Ducky content in 90, 105, 107, 141 (which was sheeped KayP reasoning though)). Yes, ducky's content wasn't fantastic, but Bella didn't really follow up on it, and it felt opportunistic to get ducky to L-2 with deadline approaching.

After post 294, Bella starts to get even worse. She changes her vote to Shadoxx for calling her town. I guess she thinks Shadoxx is cozying up to her as scum, but it feels so reactionary (I might think differently from Bella, but I start to notice buddying after a bit of a pattern of it) and again opportunistic, this time putting Shadoxx at L-3 for a single reason. She's been a wagon hopper rather than a wagon starter at every point after her KayP vote. In 340, Bella claims Shadoxx throws suspicion at her, but I don't see it above ("God help us if you are mafia" isn't exactly throwing suspicion, it's more a statement of belief in his mind). Bella, what other reasons do you have for voting Shadoxx besides them calling you towny?

TL;DR --

Bella is moving into my scum pile after an early towny start, for unoriginal and opportunistic hopping on the ducky and shadoxx wagons with weak arguments.

@Bob I say your playing town-to-null at this point. It is hard to place a player into either player (except if they have very striking play). You are not as much of a town read as Bella, because her posts have more detail IMO. However, you haven’t actively followed a bandwagon AFAIK.

This is fine too from Shadoxx. I agree, BiBob didn't have a ton of material by the time of Shadoxx's post, with the main highlights being:
- saying "the wordy people are fine"
- BobLob is formulaic
- Shadoxx case is interesting but he wants to lynch the experienced (actually, this could be a scum mindset now that I think of it)
- A little back and forth with TTH which didn't exactly move the gamestate forward

Since 294, BiBob has made an awkward push on Glork.
- It started out as "gut" in 305, yet calling glork reasonable in the same post.
- In 309, it's still gut and he's starting to disagree with his Glork read already
- Asks UT for his read on Glork in 313, then votes Glork in 329, essentially for disagreeing with Glork about Shadoxx's motivation for calling Bella towny.

But never states how Glork's disagreement with BiBob actually makes Glork scummy.

I'm still trying to figure out why BiBob thinks Glork is scummy, other than disagreeing with the Shadoxx motivation.

TL;DR --

BiBob started out kinda null with one red flag (lynch the veterans!), then made a really awkward push on Glork. Bob is trying to grasp for reasons that he hasn't even quite clearly stated, and appears wishy-washy on his Glork stance anyway. This is suuuper clumsy from BiBob. Is it scummy? I kinda think he's trying to drum up a mislynch.

@Bob#2 It may just be your play-style, but your play style isn’t being very pro-town at this point. The inclusion of pictures and filler in posts is fine, but what is questionable is your liking for joining bandwagons and overall complying with the flow. A lot of your posts have also been incredibly short, providing not much detail. IGMEOY

I can see Shadoxx's point of view about BobLob joining bandwagons and all. I mean, BobLob *hasn't* done a whole lot, but I actually think what BobLob has done been fine. He's clearly calling out attention to his bandwagon votes, which I don't see scum really doing. His cases on myself and subsequently on Bella were both towny.

@Glork. I’m not sure what to think about you. On one hand, some of your posts are rather good, but you also immediately jump to scum-team conclusion on D1. This suggests that you are anxious to end the day on a vote, as the town should only start systematically scanning for scum-tells, not pairing town players together on D1. IGMEOY.

I disagree with Shadoxx's stance on Glork, but it's pretty nit-picky on my end. I think Glork actually makes a great case on KayP in 95, and 101. Post 130 was meant to get Bella to actually do something with her vote (and it worked!), and the rest of his posts were just kinda statements, but he sets up his later push on BiBob in 293. Yes, Glork throws out a scum-team pair, but it didn't appear "anxious" IMO. It was more tongue-in-cheek from Glork.

Since 294, I actually disagree with Glork on the Shadoxx/Bella thing (like BiBob does), but I'm not using that as a reason to say Glork is scummy. In fact, Glork is interested in Shadoxx's mindest on how he formed the Bella opinion (see 331), which is the right approach. Glork's 334 is a very good retort to BiBob, especially the 3 points at the bottom of that post.

TL;DR --

This is scumhunting Glork, with a good push on KayP, Bella, and especially on BiBob.

@KayP

Oh, sure, the goal is to find mafia. I agree there, that much is obvious. But given statistics, the person you are pushing/voting/arguing with is MORE LIKELY to be town than mafia since there are way more town than mafia in games. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you seem to be STARTING from a mindset of "this person is mafia, prove me otherwise" instead of "this person is statistically likely to be town, unless proven otherwise".

Your point here is what? Maybe I’m missing the context of this post (viewing these in ISO BTW) but what you are essentially saying is that we shouldn’t vote for people because they are likely to be town? The point of the game is to vote and find the Mafia, before they lynch all town members. This statement directly contradicts the purpose of Mafia! You are pushing for us to vote random people, which is directly in the Mafia’s favour!

What is wrong with people on this site and making reasonless votes?

There is something called RVS.

I think that KayP is currently the most scummy player. However, I do not think he is Mafia. He’s the best vote for us IMO, but with Ducks at L-1. I’m unsure whether I’ll swap over on D1.

First of all, his reasons on KayP are decent. He rightly calls out that KayP is approaching mafia from the opposite mindset of how it should be approached. He even says KayP is the most scummy player. But I WTF at "I do not think this is mafia". So they've been scummy, but not mafia, but also the best vote for us. Just...WHAT?

Anyway, I don't know where I stand on KayP. She questioned me well on my Ducky vote, even up to the point of disproving my assumption of Ducky's lack of content. That felt towny KayP. But I can't help but agree with Shadoxx that the mindset of "assume everyone is town" instead of "try to find scum" is weird and backward. That's a mafia mindset, IMO. I still need to sort KayP.

Since 294, KayP goes on the aggressive against Shadoxx's points against her in 339. I can't say I agree with KayP, and I cannot tell if her push is town motivated to find scum in Shadoxx, or overly defensive scum. She's also trying to make sense of UT, which is fine, but she should push this harder if town.

TL;DR -- I have no idea on KayP

@Kitty. Whilst you haven’t contributed much yet, you have provided a valid reason for your inactivity, so I have to place you in null for now (hate doing that )

Kitty, where are you? Contribute! If we are near deadline and need to avoid a no-lynch, this is a good policy lynch.

@TellTaleHeart. Ooh yes, I like your play style. Like Bella, you are question and scrutinising everybody, and not joining bandwagons for the sake of it like some other players. You are correct about my previous post, it was a rant more than anything, not a reason for voting Ducks. You are definitely the second highest town-read for the town.

I agree. TTH, other than that weird thing with BiBob which I don't know what to make of, has p obviously been scumhunting.

@Bulge Why the lack of posts? This early on, inactiveness must always regarded as suspicious, unless it is justified. Here, you either are simply one of those players who does not care about the game, or wants to remain in the shadows, and simply complying with what the town wants. Scum-tell right here. But not Mafia read as again, it’s only D1.

The Bulge hasn't done jack shit, and is in prod range. Has Bulge actually disappeared, or skating through D1? Considering Bulge has been fairly active elsewhere on the site, I'm leaning toward skating. If somehow we're very near deadline and need to avoid a no-lynch, Bulge, like Kitty, is a good policy lynch.

Left out UT and Crayons for now because I largely agree with Shadoxx and don't have much to add on those two.


I want to lynch BiBob. I don't think he's been pro-town at all, and to the contrary, quite scummy, with what feels like a faked, wishy-washy, gut push on Glork, with little concrete reason (other than DISAGREE WITH GLORK!) to appear to finally scumhunt, after Glork calls him out for doing jack shit in 293.
VOTE: Bicephalous Bob

[Fro99er]

Anyway, I don't know where I stand on KayP. She questioned me well on my Ducky vote, even up to the point of disproving my assumption of Ducky's lack of content. That felt towny KayP. But I can't help but agree with Shadoxx that the mindset of "assume everyone is town" instead of "try to find scum" is weird and backward. That's a mafia mindset, IMO. I still need to sort KayP.

Ugh. Wtf is this. Perhaps you should stick to statistics and leave logic to the rest of us?

In no way, shape, or form is "assume everyone is town" mutually exclusive to "try to find scum". Both of those can coexist together! You see, that's not why I said you should assume everyone is town.

Fair enough. But your mindset is still backward. The point I'm making is your mindset is "assume everyone is town" contradicts how to play the game. I play the game by FINDING SCUM. Here is your earlier post on it:

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you seem to be STARTING from a mindset of "this person is mafia, prove me otherwise" instead of "this person is statistically likely to be town, unless proven otherwise".

If I have the mindset of "this person is mafia" it's because I found something they did scummy, not because I'm approaching with a presupposed mindset that they are mafia. You're making stuff up about my mindset.

I was saying that asking someone to prove their innocence is placing the burden of proof on the incorrect party. It's more likely the person you're attacking is town than scum... and therefore, you should have reasons why they are scum. You, Froggy, were saying that ducks should have to have her innocence proven, rather than you proving why she is mafia. THAT is why I brought up the "everyone is more likely to be town" bit, and in no way, shape, or form did I imply that you should not attempt to find scum.

I found, early in the game, her lack of what I perceived of as a lack of productive content, to be scummy. I did not come in with a "this person is mafia, prove me otherwise" mindset (as you state), but as a "I need to sort this person" mindset. I moved them into my early scumpile based off that lack of content, combined with some meta. I did not start with a mindset of "she is scum". I let what little facts there were at the time start to form my opinion (of which I have since changed...GASP!)

This is totally disingenuous.

FFS, what is disengenuous? I'm very sincere when I say I believe you are approaching the game from the wrong mindset. I also am sincere in saying I don't know what to make of your slot.

Jesus freaking christ. I was simply saying I agreed with Shadoxx's stance on the mindset, and not yours. I don't need to get into some shitty theory debate.

[Fro99er]

Spoiler: @Bella (so I don't piss everyone off with walls)

@Frog, you know what, that's fair. I'm gonna be honest: I got a little weirded out by TTH's push on me, and the 'houseplant' comment threw me for a loop and my play dipped.

Yes, it did.

Sure you know why I'm wary of drama right now.

<3

About the suspicion bit: it seemed such an odd read, considering I was gaining some votes by that point, so 'postcard townie' can't have been true.

I mean, I think you were mostly a post-card townie at the time, but as I pointed out you were starting to move into my town pile. I just don't understand your reaction. Why did you react that way to Shadoxx? Usually, if someone is buddying, I personally wait for a pattern of it throughout the day. Not one "holy fuck" reaction to a single post. Maybe that's just me. Can you explain your sudden reaction?

if I was the lynch for today, and flipped scum (not happening) after that post would you look at shadox? No, 'coz scum wouldn't be that blatant, right? (I think they would). Similarly, if shaddox flips scum, scum still want mislynches, so the same thing: who was shaddox giving weird town reads on...? There's also just plain old buddying. I'd say I was just paranoid about that, but the 'Kay is the most scummy, not scummy, so I won't vote, but I will...

If you flip, if shadoxx flips, if whoever flips, I'll try to analyze based off the information available at the time. You know that...right? I kept an open mind in Ori, didn't I? Moved off my Chokari deal as evidence became available, even though Sonic flipped town.

I should probably follow my town-reads for a bit (you, GC). I'm even warming up to Kay (null, rather than town, but getting better). :S

I still cannot start to make out Kay. What has made you move from scum toward null on her?

[Fro99er]

Ok here is a read list, not great but something...
[snip readlist]

So you have one scum lean. Can you explain why ducky is your sole scum lean? Why aren't you voting anyone? We're near deadline and we need your opinions and reasons for your reads.

[Fro99er]

This is ridiculous...what are you doing KayP? Just hammer now.

BiBob is V/LA so I'm not sure he's even here to claim. We don't need a freaking claim anyway. We already had one VT claim and with one hour left until deadline we'd need several people online here to agree on and switch wagons. I agree with BobLob, hammer BiBob NOW!

[Fro99er]

My god...so Bella and KayP want claims an hour before deadline? All that does is give scum a chance to narrow down the PR pool. There won't be time for another wagon.

[Fro99er]

I mean...the next biggest wagon (Shadoxx) has TWO votes. Are we seriously going to fucking sit here and wait for a claim that's only going to help scum and then hope 5 people switch wagons in time?

I mean FFS. KayP and Bella are the last two on the Shadoxx wagon, both asking for claims with under an hour left until deadline.

[Fro99er]

Pedit: KayP hammered.

[Fro99er]

Yeah, no. You keep trying to follow the crowd

VOTE: Bella

[Fro99er]

When else did Bella try to follow the crowd?

Um...it should be quite obvious. Glork already pointed out posts 130/131 where he calls out Bella, and Bella responds with a vote on KayP. Then she does the same thing just now when I call her out (she responds with a vote on Shadoxx). But the parts that bothered me the most about Bella were the points I made yesterday, and then how the end of D1 went down. First are the points I made yesterday:

Spoiler: Frog on Bella D1

But where Bella starts to worry me is she then moves her vote on to ducky for lack of content, but otherwise goes unexplained. This felt opportunistic, and at that point ducky had started to actually provide content (see Ducky content in 90, 105, 107, 141 (which was sheeped KayP reasoning though)). Yes, ducky's content wasn't fantastic, but Bella didn't really follow up on it, and it felt opportunistic to get ducky to L-2 with deadline approaching.

After post 294, Bella starts to get even worse. She changes her vote to Shadoxx for calling her town. I guess she thinks Shadoxx is cozying up to her as scum, but it feels so reactionary (I might think differently from Bella, but I start to notice buddying after a bit of a pattern of it) and again opportunistic, this time putting Shadoxx at L-3 for a single reason. She's been a wagon hopper rather than a wagon starter at every point after her KayP vote. In 340, Bella claims Shadoxx throws suspicion at her, but I don't see it above ("God help us if you are mafia" isn't exactly throwing suspicion, it's more a statement of belief in his mind). Bella, what other reasons do you have for voting Shadoxx besides them calling you towny?

TL;DR --

Bella is moving into my scum pile after an early towny start, for unoriginal and opportunistic hopping on the ducky and shadoxx wagons with weak arguments.

Speaking of follow the crowd, let's look at how Bella ends D1. First...

Spoiler: Bella follows townreads

I should probably follow my town-reads for a bit (you, GC).

Same. Someone asked me for my read on the slot: his early game was townie, it dipped a bit, now I'm not sure.

But I said I'd follow my town-reads and the strongest two are on that wagon

.

She says twice that she simply wants to follow town reads (instead of actually, you know, doing some scumhunting). This is a "trying to fit in as a townsperson" mentality.


Then later that same post Bella says...

Would prefer a claim, tho.

Prefer a claim??? With 1 hour left on D1??? What's the point in wanting a claim there? I mean, first, BiBob was on V/LA...so he wasn't going to claim. Next, the second biggest wagon had TWO votes (which ironically was the Shadoxx wagon which Bella and KayP were on). If BiBob does happen to be there and claims a PR, there isn't enough time to gather enough people to lynch someone else (and if somehow there was, it's a last minute panic lynch). Instead, what's likely to happen is a no-lynch and a PR is outed, meaning scum knows where to place the night kill. Asking for a claim in that situation only fits a scum mentality.


Finally, right before the KayP hammer, Bella asks this...

Frog, I can hammer now if you want?

This totally reads as "hey I'm scum just checking to make sure it's OK for me to hammer so I don't get the attention on D2 after I hammer this townie".



I actually am suspicious of both Bella and KayP for the end of D1. They both ask for a claim with an hour left, both were on the Shadoxx wagon, after having earlier been suspicious of each other (Bella voted KayP in 131, KayP had mentioned in her 192 she was happy with the two wagons going on at the time, which ironically happened to be......Bella and Shadoxx). Something weird is going on in those three, but Bella's play strikes me as the most suspicious, because it's not coming from a town mindset.

[Fro99er]

@frog:

I can get behind the asking-permission-mentality is scum, but the asking for a claim = autoscum is a real stretch.

It's not asking for a claim. I ask for a claim at L-1 also

It's asking for a claim when, we've

a) Already had one VT claim
b) Have 1 hour to go...then the only thing that can happen with 1 hour to go is to get information for a NK

Seriously...do you really think a claim with 1 hour to go would have done town any good?

[Fro99er]

And where did I say asking for a claim was autoscum? Purely situational in this case.

[Fro99er]

FFS, read the last sentence of my 439 in the paragraph below the quote where Bella's asks for a claim. Do you not see the phrase "in that situation"?

[Fro99er]

The argument that asking for a claim in that situation was helping direct the scum NK is also a little warped, because, like... BiBob was going to be lynched anyways? So asking for a claim was, in a sense, actually (potentially) tying the scum's NK hands because they wouldn't have gotten the BiBob mislynch, and so scum was going to have to NK BiBob if they actually wanted to get rid of him.

I guess? But this is somewhat coming from the post-perspective of BiBob being odd-night rolecop. At the time, with one hour left, not knowing BiBob's status then getting BiBob to claim would (likely) only:
1) Be a VT claim - then he's lynched and the PR pool is narrowed down by two VT claims (ducky and BiBob)
2) Be a PR claim - and either BiBob is:
a) still lynched (for a multitude of reasons, like not believing the claim, a counter claim, lack of time or something)
b) not lynched and we reach a no lynch, and BiBob is an outed PR
c) not lynched and we reach a consensus lynch by getting 5 people in one hour to change their votes to Shadoxx, or 6+ to change their vote to someone else, hoping to hit scum, and BiBob is an outed PR

To me...option c, which is probably the best outcome also seemed very unlikely with one hour left (even if we assume BiBob was NOT on V/LA).

It just seems weird that if you are going to ask for a claim, that you do so with ONE HOUR LEFT when there is almost no time to organize a contingency lynch. Just feels like scum searching for info going into the night.

[Fro99er]

I am saying that you are saying asking for a claim in the situation presented here is autoscum. And I am disagreeing with that.

Fair enough. What I said was "it only fits a scum mentality", so I can see where you interpret "autoscum". Also poor word choice by me I guess. To me, what I meant, is it's more likely a scum mentality (or anti-town mentality at best) than a town mentality given the situation.

But this claim deal isn't my main point. It's simply an added point to combine with my other points about Bella (and the larger Bella/KayP situation) that asking for a claim in this situation can indeed fit a scum mentality.

[Fro99er]

If BiBob is going to be lynched anyways - thereby negating the scum needing to NK him to get him out of the game - I really don't see the scum motivation in seeking a claim.

Right...

IF

BiBob is going to be lynched anyway. But we didn't know for a fact that BiBob would be lynched, so your point quoted is based off the one if scenario (which did eventually come true).

The other two scenarios, (no lynch or lynch someone else) it absolutely benefits scum to get a claim out of him, unless a scum is the one flashwagoned at the end of D1 (which makes me think even further that Shadoxx is town, as he was the likely flashwagon with Bella and KayP on board, and they being the ones asking for the claim).

Anyway...like I said, the claim deal is just a supporting part of my Bella read (accommodating, follows town, didn't push her scum reads past her initial vote on them, her initial reasons were weird anyway, etc.).

GC, what do you make of the fact that Bella and KayP both pushed on each other D1, then both ended up on the Shadoxx wagon late D1, then both came on at the end of D1 to ask for a claim and hammer? Coincidence?

[Fro99er]

Thanks...good points. I was asking more about the whole storyline, than addressing my three points individually, and obviously the association is just an association and is fairly useless until we get a flip. But I thought it was at least noteworthy to point out the storyline between the two (or three if we include Shadoxx) should we get a flip from one of them.

[Fro99er]

FWIW, sounds like Kitty has gone completely MIA

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6976119

[Fro99er]

Frogger - you used meta with lala at the start of the game, but that's the only time I remember you using it. You recently played a game with Bella. Did that game factor into your read on bella in this game?

No. My read on Bella has been based on her play this game.

In Ori (the only other game I played with Bella), she replaced in halfway through D1 and I kind of ignored her because my hydra partner (Mollie) was having a massive 1v1 with Metal Sonic. D2, Tere replaced in and said she could find a tell on Bella to sort her, so I left Bella to Tere, although Bella did town up her slot late D2. D3 we had the game won by PoE.

[Fro99er]

@Tammy

If the voting drunk comment happened D1, I probably didn't notice or remember it. Mollie did most of the hydra work D1. I chimed in here and there, but mostly on Metal and Yukari stuff. I find it odd you're defending your predecessor with a single cherry picked post about drunk voting from a game she replaced into with me as part of a hydra. What about for those that don't have any meta with Bella and who are scumreading her?

Anyway, you mention you wanted to push Glork, then backed off on it. What caused you to back off? Who are your scumreads, and why?

[Fro99er]

That's fine.

I'm a vanilla townie by the way.

Just make sure to actually read what I said about Glork tomorrow.

Why are you claiming?

I'd assume because that was an unannounced L-1 vote by you.

God...this whole Bella (now Tammy)/KayP thing now is seriously setting off alarm bells.

[Fro99er]

pedit: there ya go

[Fro99er]

God...this whole Bella (now Tammy)/KayP thing now is seriously setting off alarm bells.

Hearing what you think about KayP is fine, but I'm more interested in hearing what you think of Glork?

He's making me nervous, but I get there in almost the opposite way from you. You didn't like his D1, and his D2 gave you a bit better feeling (but not enough). I actually didn't mind his D1, but his D2 left me wanting. In retrospect, I can see his D1 as sort of cozying up to me. I'll explain more when I'm off mobile.

[Fro99er]

God...this whole Bella (now Tammy)/KayP thing now is seriously setting off alarm bells.

Elaborate.

It's in my ISO. 461 and 463 for starters as well as the last paragraph of 439 (and even ignoring the claim part which has already been debated, the association still pings). I can elaborate more when off mobile if needed.

[Fro99er]

All those walls...

UNVOTE:

until I catch up some point tomorrow when on a computer. I know I still owe Tammy a response about my Glork suspicions too.

[Fro99er]

oh great, we have two days to lynch someone and everyone is unvoting

Relax. In putting my vote back on somewhere as soon as I am able to sit down at a computer and catch up. In going to the eye doc and taking my car in for a tune up, and then I'll read, comment, and vote.

[Fro99er]

*I'm

[Fro99er]

While I'm sitting here at the eye doctor can Bulge Sleepy and RC actually DO something to help town?

This short deadline deal has been a bit silly. I mean, it feels like Bulge waits 48 hours into the day, posts once as a prod dodge,waits another 48 hours, posts once, and thus fulfills his obligations for the 6 day deadline, and then his timer resets overnight. It's ridiculous.

[Fro99er]

An extension would be great, but Bulge, RC and Sleepy shouldn't be banking on that for catchup opportunity (I see RC is catching up now) because post 1 states no extensions.

[Fro99er]

How in the shit did Glork go to your third to last to lynch?

This.

Just got home. I want to lynch either Tammy or Glork, or policy lynch The Bulge if we're near deadline with no consensus.

Will post my case on each and plop a vote down with my next post.

[Fro99er]

I lied, I said I'd state my Glork case and either vote Tammy or Glork in my next post, but that was before RC's catch-up post, which I think needs more discussion.

I personally believe one scum is in either Tammy or Glork, but RC isn't enthused by either wagon. KayP's point in 656 is actually very good (if UT flips town, we'll be probably be right back to Tammy/Glork D3). I'm inclined to want to sort the Tammy/Glork deal today because I cannot see how they are both town. I'm interested to hear RC's thoughts on why UT is better first, and how things would change in RC's mind if UT flips town or what avenue RC would pursue next. Especially given RC thinks there's a significant nonzero possibility that Tammy and Glork are both town.

Also, anyone else find Ducky's vote on UT interesting (on The Bulge wagon with UT, then turns and votes UT as a complete sheep to RC)?

[Fro99er]

Also, I have my Tammy/Glork deal all typed up. Just want to hear from RC first. If I don't hear in the next few hours, I'll just post my Tammy/Glork thing anyway, because this game needs to progress toward a lynch soon.

[Fro99er]

Ok, so here's my thoughts on Glork and Tammy:


My original D1 thoughts on Glork can be mainly be summed up from my post 356 in response to Shadoxx's 294. Here it is again:

Spoiler: Frogger 356

@Glork. I’m not sure what to think about you. On one hand, some of your posts are rather good, but you also immediately jump to scum-team conclusion on D1. This suggests that you are anxious to end the day on a vote, as the town should only start systematically scanning for scum-tells, not pairing town players together on D1. IGMEOY.

I disagree with Shadoxx's stance on Glork, but it's pretty nit-picky on my end. I think Glork actually makes a great case on KayP in 95, and 101. Post 130 was meant to get Bella to actually do something with her vote (and it worked!), and the rest of his posts were just kinda statements, but he sets up his later push on BiBob in 293. Yes, Glork throws out a scum-team pair, but it didn't appear "anxious" IMO. It was more tongue-in-cheek from Glork.

Since 294, I actually disagree with Glork on the Shadoxx/Bella thing (like BiBob does), but I'm not using that as a reason to say Glork is scummy. In fact, Glork is interested in Shadoxx's mindest on how he formed the Bella opinion (see 331), which is the right approach. Glork's 334 is a very good retort to BiBob, especially the 3 points at the bottom of that post.

TL;DR --

This is scumhunting Glork, with a good push on KayP, Bella, and especially on BiBob.

----------------------------------------

D2 is where I started to have issue with Glork, and it made me review some things he said D1. Starting with what I disliked D2:

Spoiler: Glork D2

- Post 423 he starts the day off voting Kitty Galore. Voting kitty in and of itself is fine, but when you consider D1 (post 325) he "Guarantee[d] two scum among {Bella, Shadoxx, KayP}", it seems weird to pursue another avenue? It's understandable, I guess, but it's like he's found two scum and keeps trying to find a third scum, instead of pushing his trio of suspects where he guarantees two scum. GC pursued this avenue.

- Then 431 he chastises Bella for her responding to my vote on her with her vote on Shadoxx. This is again fine in and of itself, but I'm noticing bigger picture that he's indirectly supporting my stance on Bella. This will become a theme (Glork's cozying up to me).

- 467, the deal about the TTH night kill caught my attention. "PR hunting" is a pretty meh reason. Why specifically TTH if PR hunting? Also, in this same post, with Kitty about to replace out, instead of keeping pressure on that slot (which is now SleepyKrew who hasn't done anything), he switches his vote to.....the Bella wagon I started on D2!

(in regards to the NK speculation inside the spoiler above, I think UT made a good point in 469.....

OR

.....in response to RC's wallpost, maybe scum!UT is trying to frame Glork...dun dun dun WIFOM)

This takes me up to post my 541 where I said I was suspicious of Glork because of his D2 play and in retrospect some D1 stuff. D1 retrospect stuff next.

----------------------------

The main thing that concerns me looking back on Glork's D1 play is how he's cozying up to me. EVERY SINGLE TIME he mentions me, it's to either defend me or call me town. I didn't think it at the time, but it makes sense that scum!Glork would try to cozy up to me so I don't suspect him.

Spoiler: Glork on Frog D1

- 95 is the defense of my f2f play, which is true, but him defending me from KayP noted
- 101 continues that defense
- 295 is just throwing me in the town pile, with no explanation
- 325 is more frog in the town pile, but then he says "read the game for my explanation" when I've never actually seen an explanation (other than my f2f play, I guess?)
- 336 he confirms that f2f is the sole reason I am town

That's the extent of him mentioning me on D1. It gives me nervous feels when the only time someone mentions me is to cozy up to me.

-------------------------------

Glork's play D2 since post 541 has been mixed
- Glork's 572 and especially 577 are really good, actually
- 638 is an interesting observation about BobLob, but I think nullish in terms of alignment (both of BobLob and of Glork)...if he didn't mean it as nullish and instead is trying to throw suspicion on BobLob, I'm just at a loss for words, because Bob has been one of his townreads.

-------------------------------

Anyway...my case on Glork isn't as strong as my case on Bella/Tammy.

I'm getting the weird feeling Tammy is actually doing even more of what Glork appears to be doing to me (cozying up to me). Tammy even points out in 520 that Glork is cozying (while she's been cozying up to me herself)! She would have even MORE reason to cozy up to me and frame someone else on her wagon (Glork is the obvious choice as GC is pretty obvtown) since she knows I made a solid case on Bella (which Tammy herself calls cogent in 551).

Here's how Tammy has cozied up to me...

Spoiler: Tammy on Frog

- 483 she has me townread in her catchup all the way from early game
- 499, "I'm still town, but wrong" about her slot.
- 506 I'm the only person on her wagon with a semblance of a strong town read she has
- 514 she commends me as a strong newbie
- 520 she says KayP's angle on me sucked, and attacks Glork for the Glork endearing me deal I mentioned above
- 525, 538 continues to defend me
- Not related to me, but in 549 she starts defending Glork from KayP....WEIRD!
- 551 is saying I've made the only cogent case on her slot
- 580 I'm still town
- same with 586 and 592

As I said, Tammy has

more

motivation to cozy up to me. I had put a solid case on her slot so now she needs me to be the most town player of all time so I can start to see her side of things. So, my case on Tammy amounts to:
- My case on Bella which I don't need to rehash at this point
- Tammy's weird analysis of Bella's meta
- repeatedly defending her predecessor to clean up a mess prior to doing any scumhunting herself
- she puts a case on Glork, but actually defends him in 549 for a bit
- she calls herself town 80 billion times (I mean...how many times do you need to repeat you are town? A quick ctrl+f of her ISO with "I'm town" turns up 3 instances, and there are several others without the "I'm" in front of it)
- lots of cozying up to me (since I made a good case on Bella) as motivation to throw suspicion on someone else on the Bella/Tammy wagon (Glork being the easier target, since GC is pretty universally townread)


VOTE: Tammy


Pedit: I see tammy posted a big wall with some meta stuff. Tammy, I'll obviously look at Glork if you flip town.

[Fro99er]

Ok, tammy. If you get lynched we'll need your thoughts on SKrew, Bulge, UT, ducky and RC? You haven't mentioned them much yet.

[Fro99er]

Hi Tere!

[Fro99er]

SK is lazy, but he promised to not be lazy so I expect to see something from him (game time) today because he promised.

I'm starting to go back to thinking that I won't be doing anything before deadline.

Bulge very much lurkerdodge posted and if he does it again I would be 100% okay with policy lynching.

V/LA until Saturday

also walls are annoying please stop

That worked out well...

[Fro99er]

Pedit: applause to RC

[Fro99er]

I'm not voting Bulge. I'm voting my scumread.

[Fro99er]

@ETL:

See post 710

[Fro99er]

Pedit: derp. I should actually read before I post.

[Fro99er]

Myself, GC, KayP, and ducky should get a sweet jar of honeybee honey if we don't replace out by end of D2.

[Fro99er]

Hi Metal!

Hi NM!

Tammy, I don't agree with your 759. You needed to cozy up to me to win me over to support your Glork case because you know we are brothers and you had to overcome that barrier. You went after Glork because he was the tougher player to get rid of, so it would be good for scum!Tammy to get rid of the tough players and leave the "weaker" players (read: me). You backed off on Glork when he replaced out because you didn't know who would replace in, not because you suddenly townread him on one replace out post after practically death tunneling that slot.

Metal...why are you townreading Bella/Tammy slot? Read Bella's ISO...she kept voting then not following up on her reads, and all she wanted to do was fit in. Also, are you townreading ETL? If so what do you think of RC's case on UT (now ETL) in 654?

[Fro99er]

Also, I will only be able to check in by phone tonight and tomorrow. Family in town and USA Women's World Cup tonight!

[Fro99er]

Hi frogger!

You went after Glork because he was the tougher player to get rid of, so it would be good for scum!Tammy to get rid of the tough players and leave the "weaker" players (read: me).

why can't scum!Tammy NK glork instead?

I guess so. I don't see in her walls if she ever said that though. Wouldn't that be a point she'd want to get acorss right away?

[Fro99er]

Why wouldn't Tammy just point out that she could NK Glork? She never pointed it out once in all her walls, and that's the first thing you thought of.

[Fro99er]

@Metal - As far as Bella and Ori, I didn't pay attention much to her D1, and you know that because of Mollie running the hydra. D2 I left her to Tere, and D3 I sorted her as town. But I never scumread Bella in that game when I did pay attention to her. But I know that game she wasn't pushed into voting someone like she was (twice) here and she didn't appear to be trying to appease town. Going back through her ISO in that game, she spoke with more conviction in that game than in this one

I'm happy to put my vote back here.

VOTE: MS

I highly doubt this will flip town. If it does, we're looking at wni/boo over froggingmollie, as I struggle to see she'd scum-tunnel this hard. Also, I'm still willing to follow ika's read on her. Re-reading Ika's ISO, I think there were enough hints there about the neighbourhood to make his frustration seem genuine.

She tried to figure out the game in that one (setup spec, where to go if you flipped town, etc.).

[Fro99er]

Why wouldn't Tammy just point out that she could NK Glork?

Why would she?

Because if she had simply said that, it would have changed how I viewed her push on Glork. If she pointed out she could just night kill Glork, that would be an almost insta-town tell because scum!Tammy would have no reason to point out who she would night kill.

Pedit: GC I think we're in agreement. Had Tammy just said that, it would be an insta town tell. So why didn't she just say that

[Fro99er]

can you show me what you think about tammy?

See the bottom section of my 672

[Fro99er]

Pedit: GC I think we're in agreement. Had Tammy just said that, it would be an insta town tell. So why didn't she just say that

I don't understand? Why would Tammy

ever

say "I'm going to NK you tonight"?

That's claiming scum.

Ok, let's step back for a second.

Town tammy would say "if I were scum!Tammy, I would just NK Glork instead of push for his mislynch. The fact that I'm pushing for a Glork lynch instead of just waiting on a NK would make me town"

had she said that, I would have realized she's NOT scum.

[Fro99er]

So, the fact that she never said the easy option that Sonic pointed out in 2 seconds, makes me worry.

[Fro99er]

Hi frogger!

You went after Glork because he was the tougher player to get rid of, so it would be good for scum!Tammy to get rid of the tough players and leave the "weaker" players (read: me).

why can't scum!Tammy NK glork instead?

heh this is a good point. :p

Then why did you never bring it up when it took metal 2 seconds to bring it up?

[Fro99er]

Hi Metal!

Hi NM!

Tammy, I don't agree with your 759. You needed to cozy up to me to win me over to support your Glork case because you know we are brothers and you had to overcome that barrier. You went after Glork because he was the tougher player to get rid of, so it would be good for scum!Tammy to get rid of the tough players and leave the "weaker" players (read: me). You backed off on Glork when he replaced out because you didn't know who would replace in, not because you suddenly townread him on one replace out post after practically death tunneling that slot.

Metal...why are you townreading Bella/Tammy slot? Read Bella's ISO...she kept voting then not following up on her reads, and all she wanted to do was fit in. Also, are you townreading ETL? If so what do you think of RC's case on UT (now ETL) in 654?

This is so completely backwards and is rather insulting. You can do backbends all you want to find reasons to scum read me but it doesn't make one word of what you're saying true. This just tells me that you're not actually reading anything I've written, and you're not actually interested in finding out my true alignment. I've literally poured my heart into this game since I've replaced in, and I did it knowing I was the lynch of the day. Yes, I hoped I'd be able to get you to see I was town because you seemed to be really trying to earnestly figure out the game, but I was more concerned about making sure that my scum read got lynched after me.

If you are town here and you actually believe this, when this game is done or after I flip, I want you to go back and read my case and read my thoughts about my expectations, because that's what a genuine case looks like. That's what genuinely trying to determine the mindset of someone and figure out this game looks like.

Yes, I can decide that upon one post my entire read was likely wrong. I asked people to talk to me about my read, and nobody did. I'd hoped that if Glork was town, he'd respond to the post I made where I talked about my expectations. I hoped if he was town, he'd recognize that came from town and we'd find common ground somewhere, but he didn't. So you can suck it with your death tunneling; I am always up for recognizing when I'm wrong.

I'm just going to laugh that you actually think that I'd go from "death-tunneling" Glork to deciding he's innocent because I didn't know who would replace in. I'd like for you or anyone to tell me who I'd be afraid to "death-tunnel" as scum more than I'd be afraid to Glork. If I'm going to be ballsy enough as scum to tunnel on Glork, the sky is the fucking limit for me. (I get he thinks he's mislynch bait. I get he thinks he's not a strong player anymore, but I haven't played with him since 2012, except in that hydra when he was third party and I don't count that, so my view of him wasn't that.)

Tammy, I don't see why you think it's insulting. I have not insulted you at all.

Instead, you pissed off Glork and caused him to replace out and now I don't feel like playing either, but I will because I have no good reason to replace out.

[Fro99er]

Sorry didn't mean to quote all tha. Stupid phone posting

[Fro99er]

I even fucking said I'd look at your pov if you flip town. But right now you're my top scumread

Could I be wrong? Sure. And that's why I asked you for reads on the ppl you hadn't mentioned because I wanted your input should you have flipped town

[Fro99er]

Fro99er, if you keep scaring off our players, I'm not going to play with you anymore!

What? I caused nobody to replace except apparently Tammy now. Even though I NEVER insulted her

[Fro99er]

She is only insulted that I am voting her with what she considers a BS case.

I even asked her questions about players in this game because I do care about her POV

[Fro99er]

But Glork's not here now. You've been fun to play with on my end. I considered Glork scum because of you. I asked you for your reads. Because I'm not solid on my read on you. But it's the best read I have.

FFS do not replace out with 24 hours left for no reason other than Glork replacing out. If you are town, this just hurts us.

[Fro99er]

You are the queen bee

[Fro99er]

p-edit: Maybe that's just fuckin wonky. You can only have one non-normal role in the game.

I believe backup IC is a normal role though.

[Fro99er]

I'm a little nervous about NM because the only game I played with him he was town and incorrectly death tunneled one player the whole game after replacing in. He's actually looking more town here, so I'm not sure if it's meta manipulation or its his scum play to try to look more town, but at least he's attempting to scumhunt on his catch up, so I don't want to lynch NM because if he's scum I think it should become apparent with time.

pedit: see the RC stuff

[Fro99er]

I wanted to vote UT. No one, yourself included, helped me with this.

KayP voted with you and expressed concerns of UT herself in D1.

Ducky voted UT with you too, but her vote bothered me. At the time she was voting Bulge

with

UT then suddenly turned and voted him with no explanation.

[Fro99er]

Shit fucked the quote tags up. My bad.

[Fro99er]

EBWOP

I wanted to vote UT. No one, yourself included, helped me with this.

KayP voted with you and expressed concerns of UT herself in D1.

Ducky voted UT with you too, but her vote bothered me. At the time she was voting Bulge

with

UT then suddenly turned and voted him with no explanation.

[Fro99er]

Yes, granted, they did, but then they abandoned me. I mean, I'll give the wagon a gold star, but L-3 isn't good enough, Fro99er.

What did you make of ducky hopping on the wagon with you?

[Fro99er]

What did you make of ducky hopping on the wagon with you?

Hell, the devil himself can ride a wagon with me if it helps me get my scumreads lynched. But what do I make of lalala specifically? If her and ETL are scum together, she may have seen an easy bus opportunity there knowing how difficult it would be for me to sell Ut amidst the Glork/Tammy drama. If she's scum and ETL isn't, she saw an easy place to throw a helpful vote. If she's town and ETL isn't, she did have genuine UT dislike in the past that I probably tapped into a bit.

In any case, real talk, lalala is really a non-factor this game since the end of D1 (and even then it was only a slight improvement). She just calls everyone town until the winds blow another direction.

So you think:

1. Could be scum!Ducky bussing scum!UT
2. Scum!Ducky voting town!UT
3. town!Ducky voting scum!UT because she disliked him in the past (but, yet, she was voting the same The Bulge wagon

with

UT a second prior, and vote hopped with no explanation)

So you left every possibility open (except TvT), and then said Ducky is a nonfactor, when two of the three possibilities you listed were scum?

[Fro99er]

Why aren't you pursuing either Ducky or UT slot then, instead of voteparking on NM who you aren't even sure could be scum?

[Fro99er]

sorry, voteparking on the two lurkslots (sleepykrew, then moving to NM)

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE: EspeciallyTheLies; VOTE: Not_Mafia

UNVOTE: Not_Mafia; VOTE: SleepyKrew

UNVOTE: SleepyKrew; VOTE: Not_Mafia

I mean...what is this. It's like you're ready to lynch anyone. Whoever has the biggest wagon.

[Fro99er]

what is there to add about TvT? It's then three townies trying their best and failing. There's no scum opportunity to try and analyze, so the argument is moot.

In town!Ducky town!UT/ETL, it could just be two townies, not three. You could be the scum pushing a UT/ETL mislynch, knowing that slot and Ducky are town.

[Fro99er]

I would obviously be the third townie, Fro99er. Why would you assume that I would hypothesize myself as scum for your behalf?

I'm not saying you should. I'm saying it myself.

[Fro99er]

Because i'm trying to figure out why RC jumped from NM -> SK -> NM and what it likely means for those two (and for RC, but that's not happening now). Right now I'm leaning voting SK.

[Fro99er]

I'll be around for deadline too, but why isn't SK voting? He should be voting NM, (or I guess himself if he thinks avoiding a no lynch is preferable, but really he should be voting NM).

To me, his ISO reads as "shit I replaced into scum, I don't want to put in the effort to town up this slot". He replaced into the Kitty slot who made one shitty, faked reads list (post 364), with a bunch of nulls, a couple town leans, and one scum lean. That claim is either truthful and there's no IC, or it's a pretty bad fakeclaim (although it is a normal role, so I disagree with ETL in that sense that it's non-normal).

Pedit: ugghh I was about to vote SK, but that NM vote of RC.....

[Fro99er]

Ok. I obviously town!RC would genuinely be scumreading SKrew when they voted them, and scum!RC wouldn't bus, unbus, bus NM (and then NM bus RC back in the scum!RC case).

Sleepy Krew has been useless, as has his predecessor. His predecessors reads list was just an attempt at pretending to look like they were doing something. Also, SKrew replacing in, admitting he isn't invested in it, not catching up and not voting is so incredibly anti-town at best.

VOTE: Sleepy Krew

[Fro99er]

freudian slip?

Scumslip.

Point me to the game where marquis did that?

VOTE: Metal Sonic

[Fro99er]

Guys...unless metal magically pulls out the game Marquis did that, this needs to be our lynch for today. If not enough people log on to lynch metal today, we instalynch metal tomorrow.

[Fro99er]

Frogger. you were in this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61890

NM was hauling ass.

why are you not noticing the difference? I would expect you to be the first person to point it out

I already pointed it out. Just a few pages ago. ISO me.

[Fro99er]

Frogger. you were in this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61890

NM was hauling ass.

why are you not noticing the difference? I would expect you to be the first person to point it out

I already pointed it out. Just a few pages ago. ISO me.

I'll make it easy for you

1142

[Fro99er]

stahp this please.

Why?

[Fro99er]

i saw it.

that game he was more obvtown than here lol.


im not sure why our opinions are differing on the same game. maybe because i was an outside observer

I'm agreeing. I said he's NOT behaving here like he behaved there, which makes me definitely consider his slot (and The Bulge was a lurky waste). And I said NM is either manipulating his meta, or he's scum. With time, I can sort that. If it comes to deadline, I'll be happy to lynch him on that alone, but I'd rather have some more evidence of his gameplay in

this

game.

I'd rather lynch SKrew.

[Fro99er]

ETL - respond to me about Sonic's deal please.

[Fro99er]

Alternatively, I'm playing differently because it's a different game and a single game isn't a base for meta

That's what I said...I'm leaving the door open for analyzing your play based off this game. Doesn't mean I didn't take notice, however.

[Fro99er]

fro99er, did you think glork was scum?

I thought either Tammy or Glork was scum, yes. See 672

[Fro99er]

ETL - respond to me about Sonic's deal please.

what?

I asked why you told me to stahp it.

[Fro99er]

i disagree with your read on ms. i think you may be very confbiased here. when i read his post about encryptors, it made sense to me as a typo. i dont think it's a slip.

Ugghhh. I believe it's a slip. I still think we need to revisit this tomorrow if we don't hit scum today because clearly I'm not getting a Metal lynch now at deadline especially since NM didn't even comment on it, and you don't agree with it. I'll trust you for now. But if MS flips scum, defense noted.

VOTE: Sleepy Krew

[Fro99er]

Was Metal's NM vote L-1?

[Fro99er]

And by metal, I mean GC

[Fro99er]

see... if NM was scum, I really don't think he'd be arguing that his counterwagon is probably town.

Can we maybe think about RC? And just get it done? I'd even compromise on lala I think.

I'd rather lynch the ducks if we need to compromise. The sheep onto the UT wagon was so bad.

[Fro99er]

the only person who hasn't posted since SKrew's claim who could claim IC is KayP and they aren't here.

I'm inclined to believe SKrew's claim. NM defending SKrew isn't scum motivated.

We should lynch Ducky, but I fear we won't get enough people together in 3 hours. I will compromise on RC if we need to avoid no lynch.

[Fro99er]

BBMolla isn't really helping with my Tammy/Bella slot scumread

[Fro99er]

I don't believe NM is pulling the wool over our eyes by defending SKrew. I mean, that's ballsy to do as scum.

Can we lynch Ducky. I feel so much better about that than RC. Still think one (or both) could flip scum but more confident in Ducky

[Fro99er]

VOTE: lalalafucks

I'll vote RC if this goes nowhere

[Fro99er]

I'm only here for another 45 minutes, so a decision needs to be made otherwise I wont be around to change my vote if necessary.

Omg I got autocorrected sorry!

[Fro99er]

Re: lalaladucks

[Fro99er]

VOTE: lalalafucks

I'll vote RC if this goes nowhere

VOTE: lalaladucks

Honest mistake Ducky!

[Fro99er]

lol Froggy do I

VOTE: Evil Coyote

not liking the RC seems very sus

Then why did you sheep Coyote's push in UT after you were voting WITH UT on Bulge?

[Fro99er]

VOTE: RC

[Fro99er]

All day work meeting so I'll be online tonight, but not a big fan of the NK speculation. A bunch of WIFOM.

Ducky, can you clarify the twilight deal. Are you VT or Backup IC?

Don't really see NM as scum...he actually came to the defense of SKrew when the other wagon besides NM was...SKrew. I mean, that would be pretty ballsy.

[Fro99er]

VT/backup IC joke aside, Ducky is laying down the NK speculation WIFOM and the if "I was scum" WIFOM.

Ducky, since you think he's scum, why didn't you hammer him while you were there when he was at L-1?

VOTE: lalaladucks

[Fro99er]

@GC - So you're saying NM was at L-1 as scum, and came to SKrew's defense while SKrew was the other wagon? I guess so.

[Fro99er]

I don't know. GC, I see where you're coming from, but I don't see how it "feels right" given how yesterday went down.

I mean, I saw NM defend SKrew, and I've never played with scum!NM, but I can't see him doing that. Except in the case of SKrew being his scumbuddy as a last minute attempt to save SKrew. But, SKrew's claim makes sense given that Ducky claims she was just joking, so there goes the scum!NM + scum!SKrew idea.

[Fro99er]

Hammer at that time would have looked bad on lala

I KNOW! I believe she was afraid to hammer because you'd flip town. I mean, she said she didn't vote you because it was a Bulge lurker thing instead of a you scummy thing. Then suddenly after the NK you are scummy?

This is exactly why I hated her WIFOM about the NK.

Either she really is getting framed

or

She wanted ETL gone and then was the first to react to the NK claiming "I'm framed!" so she could find someone else to blame, you being the most logical

[Fro99er]

VOTECOUNT 2.06

(2)

Tammy

—

Green Crayons, Glork

(0)

Bob Loblaw

—

(0)

Fro99er

—

(2)

Glork

—

Tammy, Bob Loblaw

(0)

Green Crayons

—

(0)

KayP

—

(0)

SleepyKrew

—

(0)

lalaladucks

—

(1)

RedCoyote

—

KayP

(2)

The Bulge (now Not_Mafia)

—

Untrod Tripod, lalaladucks

(0)

Untrod Tripod

—

(4)

(NOT VOTING)

—

SleepyKrew, The Bulge, RedCoyote, Fro99er

[snip huge post wanting to lynch UT/ETL slot]

oh yes please

VOTE: UT

Evil C can't believe you're scumreading me

So she was voting The Bulge/Not_Mafia slot

WITH

UT/ETL slot, then suddenly changed her vote to vote UT/ETL slot (which we know is now town), then claimed she didn't want to hammer The Bulge/Not_Mafia slot because they weren't scummy but just lurking, then suddenly UT/ETL slot is NK'd and then The Bulge/Not_Mafia slot is now scum again?

[Fro99er]

(also notice in the quote above how ducky comments on RC scumreading her, so this is an attempt to buddy RC, because ducky eventually is on the RC wagon)

[Fro99er]

^^this is an attempt to buddy her = the UT/ETL vote

[Fro99er]

That's L-1

[Fro99er]

Why me over lala Molla?

This fits the town!NM meta

Why me?

[Fro99er]

^^Second quote from my game with NM where he was town

[Fro99er]

Haha, sorry. The "Why me" really stood out from that game.

[Fro99er]

What the hell

[Fro99er]

Frog's 'what the hell' felt fake as Kim K

Fake? I was annoyed because I had just pointed out a town!NM tell (the why me). I came back to the computer and KayP makes a dumb hammer for an even dumber reason. But you know what feels fake?

KayP that was ridiculous I wanted to come back and say some more stuff but the thread was locked and the dude was lynched already by the time I was free >:(

This is faked anger. KayP probably quickhammered because you were the other wagon and she wanted to protect you.


Scum is KayP/Ducky/{GC or MS}

I've made my points on ducky clear, and both NM and ETL have additionally said they have played and moderated respectively games in which ducky was town and both have said she was much more focused, clear headed, and provided tangible thoughts and effort as town.

GC conveniently ignored my 1497 and 1501/1503/1504 points about ducky, tried to paint myself and/or BBMolla as NM's scumbuddies in 1482, or even ducky as a wild theory pending a NM scum flip like he knew NM wouldn't flip scum.

MS is Glork. I am still suspicious of that slot, especially now that Bella/Tammy/BBMolla is gone. MS was on the NM wagon each of the last two days as well.

ChaosOmega is BobLob who I thought was pretty towny. CO needs to provide more thoughts though.

SKrew's claim I believe since Ducky claimed VT/backup IC/just joking VT again.

[Fro99er]

Seriously ducky? I'm starting to get annoyed.

People have been saying all game this isn't your normal meta (including two flipped townies). As town you're more clear, and focused, and you called out scum when nobody would listen. Here, what have you done? You haven't been scumhunting. Instead of scumhunting, you've sat here all game and sheeped onto all three mislynches

here

Spoiler: 1

alright have read all of this, almost fell asleep but yeah can confirm I'm up to date

green beans with extra carotenoids and vitamin town

lalalalalalalala

obviously imma good duck!

KayP

hey Bruce Lee

Bob Lob

on a corn cob

groggy Mr.

Froggy

Glork

is a funny name!

TT

breaking my

Heart

</3

GC

on the PC looking at NeNe hehe

(disclaimer: green colour is for fun and not indicative of strength of townreads, vitamin town nutrition is not guaranteed to benefit health)

methinks the

Bicycle Bob

is the best choice for lynchtime lunchtime because he stole my lunch money

V

O

T

E

:

B

I

C

Y

C

L

E

P

H

A

L

O

U

S

B

O

B

R

O

B

B

E

D

M

E

D

:

unironic or not, no one will ever know...

here

Spoiler: 2

lol Froggy do I

VOTE: Evil Coyote

not liking the RC seems very sus

and here

Spoiler: 3

V

O

T

E

:

N

o

t

_

M

a

f

liar liar pantaloons on fire

You even sheeped onto the UT/ETL wagon, as I've pointed out several times. You were on The Bulge/NM wagon WITH UT, then RC made her case, you called her suspicious yet changed your vote from The Bulge/NM onto UT/ETL even though you were just voting WITH them and even though you were suspicious of RC you joined RC on the UT/ETL wagon.

Now you're going to sit here and OMGUS KayP, myself, and Metal for having scumread you? I mean, your case on me amounts to I faked frustration, your case on Metal/Glork isn't even a case, and KayP you've suspected since the lolhammer because you know that was a stupid hammer and have no way to defend it.


What's more, GC has been content to sit here and not listen to me all game while I/ve mainly pushed Bibob (town), Bella/Tammy/BBMolla (town), Glork/MS (who knows), and you (who knows). I said I could read NM as town given time, and did, but I guess GC won't listen to me because lolnewb... What's more, he was lightly scumreading you, but his townturn on you is complete BS.

call me crazy

but ducks ain't scum

I'm not really seeing who would match up with her*


In contrast, I think NM is scum

Final D2 VC had KayP, ChaosOmega, RedCoyote, and Metal Sonic voting NM. The only questionable townread I have in there is Kay. So I think NMs wagon was most likely all town.

Final D2 VC had EspeciallyTheLies, lalaladucks, BBmolla, Green Crayons, and Fro99er voting RC. ETL & GC are town. I'm thinking ducks is town. That leaves BBmolla and frogger as strong candidates for NM-scum's buddies. Which kinda makes sense when you look at their play.



* Wild theory: NM and ducks are on the same scum team


VOTE: NM

I see how you two have been together on all three mislynches.

KayP/Ducks/GC seems plausible. Metal seems plausible, his turn off of you and onto NM was pretty crap too. Hell, BobLob/Tere/Chaos seem plausible as well, but it's a distant third option because I've townread that slot all game. Going to need to ISO CO.

Pedit: Yeah, metal scumreads SK? Why?

[Fro99er]

I guess GC won't listen to me because lolnewb

also

no

stop projecting

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

If you mean I'm not listening to you, I assure you I am. Your setup spec helped me realize why I believe SKrew is town, for example.

I was in a bad mood this morning because I slept like shit (you can probably see the timestamps of my post, we're both on the US east coast), and probably vented my frustration too much after seeing ducky's post and in a rush to get to work, so my apologies.

Anyway, I've been doing some VCA but found something interesting from it, so I'm going to post that here in a sec.

[Fro99er]

So, D1 Ducky got to L-2 and claimed VT, then GC put Ducky at L-1 in post 274. Here's that wagon:

(6)

lalaladucks

—

Kitty Galore

,

Shadoxx8

,

TellTaleHeart

,

Untrod Tripod

,

Bellaphant

,

Green Crayons

(L-1)

In terms of current players it was:

Voting Ducky:

Sleepy Krew,

RedCoyote

,

TellTaleHeart

,

EspeciallyTheLies

,

BBMolla

, Green Crayons

Not voting Ducky:

Fro99er, ChaosOmega, Metal Sonic, KayP,

Not_Mafia

,

BicephalousBob

So

- If ducky was town, scum had the chance to lynch her and didn't take it. Don't see that as the case.
- If ducky was scum, then it would make sense that scum was hesitant to hammer and instead dissolved the wagon and created a new one on a now confirmed town BiBob.

So that would implicate myself, ChaosOmega, Metal Sonic, and KayP. Obviously I'm not Ducky's scumbuddy. So CO, MS, and KayP are candidates for Ducky's scumbuddy. Crazy enough, all four of us (myself, BobLob/Tere/Chaos slot, Glork/Metal slot, KayP) ended up on the BiBob wagon, so it doesn't help narrow it down from the other three from my POV.

GC on the other hand WAS on the Ducky wagon, so it makes me think a bit more town of him now.

I'm now willing to bet the scum team is Ducky and two of the other three mentioned, although I can still see a case for GC too. I still believe Sleepy Krew's claim.

Also, I'm down for mass claiming if everyone else is.

[Fro99er]

(the coloring in the quote is duckys)

[Fro99er]

Ducky, who do you find the most scummy and why? Please actually put a case on someone.

[Fro99er]

your argument went a bit towards getting me to just want to lynch ducks today.

Went a bit toward getting you? That is really insincere. Reads like "Thank you for making an argument for me so I can have more reason to bus my partner"

[Fro99er]

Vanilla townie here.

Now I know why ducky claimed back up IC in twilight of D2. She wanted to attract the role cop so that he did not hit a PR

[Fro99er]

No, I have been role cop in other games and Mafia goon return vanilla as well

[Fro99er]

Ducky was trying to attract it so SKrew wasn't conftown or so a mafia PR wasn't discovered

[Fro99er]

So it's metal KayP Ducky barring a metal CC

[Fro99er]

Which makes sense why they didn't want to hammer ducky on day one

[Fro99er]

So we have 3 claimed town PRs, one claimed backup town PR, and 3 claimed VTs?

This would seem super town-sided.

Unless I'm scum bussing the ever loving shit out of ducky, it's pretty obvious it's not myself, Ducky, KayP...so one of these PR claims at minimum is false.

[Fro99er]

Sleepy, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Ducky, why did you joke about being backup IC going into twilight?

[Fro99er]

I can't see Chaos lying given ducky's actions, and I've townread BobLob slot the whole game, so I'm inclined to belive it.

KayP, Ducky, and {metal or GC} is still where I'm at, still leaning a good bit toward Metal

[Fro99er]

^^That is a pretty sad bussing attempt, Metal. Just tagging along with my question to look like you're questioning Ducky.

[Fro99er]

honestly the way I look at it,

assuming that GC gives scum daytalk.

the most suspicious thing ever is duck's backup IC claim then retract

Soooo...in this scenario, if GC gives scum daytalk (meaning you believe his claim), and you're doctor, then you're saying Chaos is lying in his claim? Because two rolecops, a doctor, two backup ICs, and an encryptor-enabler is awfully town-sided.

[Fro99er]

Ducky, why did you joke about being backup IC going into twilight?

uh well

I did not think there was another role cop

I also did not think everyone would actually believe the claim

when I was at L-1 on Day 1 I had already claimed VT

and jokes are fun

NM had just said

WE'RE ALL BACKUP ICs!

so I rolled with it

no ragrets

Lies. You started your joke in 1413, BEFORE NM said that in 1418.

[Fro99er]

I am sure that at least one of {Kay/MS/Frog} is scum

probably MS first, then Frog, then Kay in order of scumbumbliness?

uhhh yeah I'm reading them!!

except the really long ones I always procrastinate on the walls

thoughts? Chaos = scum is a viable theory I think

but BobLob was very town

he did say he was an alt

might be a super pro player that's really awesome buuuuut I'd say leaning town actually on that slot

yeah, if I had to pick scum/town - I'd say Chaos is town

So the four people you suspect are four people who could have hammered you when you were at L-1 on D1, but didn't, and then you joined those four on the BiBob wagon?

Seems like a scumbuddy didn't want to lynch you, and then Glork made the BiBob flashwagon happen (notice, Glork also posted after you were at L-1).

[Fro99er]

Frogger are you saying that Glork pushed the BiBob lynch so that his buddy lala would survive?
Because I was considering that scenario mere SECONDS before reading your post

Yes

[Fro99er]

In that scenario are you also factoring in how Loblaw was content to wagonhop everywhere until ducky became the popular wagon, and then he disappeared until BiBob got going?

I did not.

It would make sense that Ducky is bussing one (Glork/Metal) and not the other (BobLob/Chaos) if that's the case.

[Fro99er]

I want to lynch either Tammy or Glork

Same to you

On phone so will answer in depth later, but I believed it was a situation that needed to be sorted. I'll quote the posts with my main cases on each when off phone

[Fro99er]

But yes, I had scumreads on both, but to me they weren't a scum pair

[Fro99er]

Sleepy, see 429 where I vote Bella, 439 for my case on Bella, 672 for my Tammy and Glork cases

(Bella and Tammy = same slot)

[Fro99er]

^^lol

[Fro99er]

Instead, you pissed off Glork and caused him to replace out

Where are you getting this?

From Glork's replace out post

[Fro99er]

But that's not what it said at all
Though I can understand you being bitter and taking a potshot at Tammy

MS's potshot, however, makes no sense.

Dude, when Glork says he needs to get something off his chest, it's because he's angry.

Also, he said:
1. he lost sleep over this game
2. he wants to have fun, and wasn't, and that's why he replaced out

When my brother loses sleep over stuff, it's because he's upset.

[Fro99er]

this has been keeping me up all night and I just need to get some stuff off my chest...

These types of expectations are ludicrous. They are one of the things that made the game largely unfun for me...

I just want to have fun playing them.

Didn't sound too happy to me.

Glork is doing well health wise. Couldn't be prouder of him.

[Fro99er]

Anyway, can we get off this topic. I almost replaced out after glork did because I was not happy because I've never played forum mafia with my brother and was really looking forward to it. And I don't want to rehash this now.

UGH

[Fro99er]

Now I'm just getting upset again.

[Fro99er]

I'm inclined to believe SKrew's claim.

You voted me twice between my claim and this post. What changed your mind?

GC explaining how it could be balanced, no IC claim, and ducky's fake claim oh just kidding

[Fro99er]

@Mod V/LA until Monday afternoon for July 4 weekend.

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you have to believe that i have been bussing ducks the entire game for that

You haven't been though. You voted her early for a "shitty ISO" when you replaced in and basically for the same reasons ETL and NM said about her town play.

No clue why you unvoted her.

Then you only mentioned her once again until LyLo.

[Fro99er]

k

Okay, I've seen enough.

VOTE: lalaladucks

I'm pretty confident on this one, and I'm about to be gone for the weekend... when I get internet access, I'll see where the wagons are at because I am still 100% convinced ChaosOmega is mafia as well and wouldn't mind putting my vote there.

Hmm. If you're 100% on Chaos, why are you voting ducks who you are "pretty confident" about?

[Fro99er]

So Metal and Ducks are a team and he needs to bus her now that it's LyLo. Makes sense given Glork/Ducky D1 interaciton (Glork avoiding intent on Ducky, then Ducky and Glork on the BiBob wagon).

Either KayP or BobLob/Chaos is the other, and they both fit the same D1 pattern as Glork/Metal in regards to the Ducky D1 wagon. But neither posted between Ducky's L-1 and when her wagon started to fall apart, so I'm less sure on which of these two. I'm still leaning KayP and she's trying to get her or Ducky towncred if we make it to 5p LyLo.

[Fro99er]

Metal's only real case on Ducky has been sheeping my points. The second one is really bad. He says he's ready to vote her, then doesn't.

Spoiler: Metal sheeping my points

Sleepy, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Ducky, why did you joke about being backup IC going into twilight?

I would like to hear the answer to this as well.

People do not "joke" about putting a bomb on an airplane.

We're going to take it as if you did put a bomb on the airplane.

Ducky, why did you joke about being backup IC going into twilight?

uh well

I did not think there was another role cop

I also did not think everyone would actually believe the claim

when I was at L-1 on Day 1 I had already claimed VT

and jokes are fun

NM had just said

WE'RE ALL BACKUP ICs!

so I rolled with it

no ragrets

Lies. You started your joke in 1413, BEFORE NM said that in 1418.

this is good


i'm ready to vote ducky now.

[Fro99er]

Spoiler: Metal and Ducky

Ducky, why did you joke about being backup IC going into twilight?

uh well

I did not think there was another role cop

I also did not think everyone would actually believe the claim

when I was at L-1 on Day 1 I had already claimed VT

and jokes are fun

NM had just said

WE'RE ALL BACKUP ICs!

so I rolled with it

no ragrets

Lies. You started your joke in 1413, BEFORE NM said that in 1418.

this is good


i'm ready to vote ducky now.

I am sure that at least one of {Kay/MS/Frog} is scum

probably MS first, then Frog, then Kay in order of scumbumbliness?

uhhh yeah I'm reading them!!

except the really long ones I always procrastinate on the walls

thoughts? Chaos = scum is a viable theory I think

but BobLob was very town

he did say he was an alt

might be a super pro player that's really awesome buuuuut I'd say leaning town actually on that slot

yeah, if I had to pick scum/town - I'd say Chaos is town

I don't understand why you two aren't voting for each other if you each think the other is your top scumread.

VOTE: lalaladucks

[Fro99er]

get better at mafia

Says the guy who sheeped my points

[Fro99er]

Oh look...I just pushed him into voting his partner

[Fro99er]

get better at mafia

Says the guy who sheeped my points

says the guy who can't read his brother

Says the guy who thinks its GC CO ducks. You mean town only have a odd night role cop and a non consecutive doc in a 13 player game?

[Fro99er]

and 2 backup ics

Backup ICs have no power though without an IC. Unless you count two backup ICs initially confusing town as a pro-town power. Ducky just tried to confuse things more by claiming backup IC in twilight to draw the role cop investigation. Then suddenly the next day JUST KIDDING!

[Fro99er]

Glork replacing out was not sketch. He seriously lost sleep over this for reasons I won't say.

Mod, I will only consent to making the scum thread public if Glork does.

Marquis, tanks for modding. I know you were in a bad spot through no fault of anyone's and I'm sorry.

[Fro99er]

This was really emotional for me because I was so excited to play with Glork. After we ended up scum together it was amazeballs. I was super sad after we both lost sleep over it and I was *thisclose* to replacing out myself.

Thank you KayP and Metal for being fantastic teammates. A true team win.

I also want to thank everyone who replaced on and put forth much effort. You all made it fun again, challenging, and enjoyable. I'm really sorry Ducky I had to paint you as scum. You are really fun and humorous in all situations.

[Fro99er]

Glork replacing out was kind of sketch, but a win is a win.

all I'm going to say is you don't even know and you seriously better take that back

[Fro99er]

I don't know. After reding that dead thread I'm kind of inclined to just replace out of things. Glork is taking unfair heat, and so am I for the Tammy deal.

[Fro99er]

get better at mafia

Says the guy who sheeped my points

says the guy who can't read his brother

[Fro99er]

Cool, yeah slept on it. Making scum PT public is fine by me. KayP is righ, we put TONS of effort into our strategy and it would be a waste to not let everyone see it.

I can't believe nobody would have chosen me over Ducky. Pretty happy for that in my first ever scum game.

[Fro99er]

Oh come on BiBob you were one of the ones to call Glork's replace out sketch in the dead thread.

Pedit: yes that was our initial strategy until extension occurred. In the scum thread I explain to metal how it undermines our strategy

[Fro99er]

We were especially annoyed because no deadline extensions was even quoted in thread by the mod, and was extended because 100% of the players replacing out up to the time of extension were all town. Not scums fault town couldn't get their shot together, yet we were the ones being punished for it.

It double screws scum over because all the replacing in players are fresh new eyes on the game...and now they have extra time to do so as well, when the rule set clearly stated no extensions and was even quoted in game by the mod.

[Fro99er]

^^this

The setup was indeed fantastic.

Also, one thing to consider on 6 day deadlines is NOT resetting the 48 hour clock overnight as umyiu did with Bulge. By doing so a player can wait 48 hours, post ince, wait 48 hours, post once and then day ends after another 48 hours and the prod clock resets overnight instead of needing an immediate prod upon start of next day.

This means you could post twice every game day and not even need a prod.