Newbie 1625: American Spring - Day 5 (DL - 08/31)

[Micc]

I mean it would fit if you found that sort of stuff scummy, but you wernt scum reading the slot, so it doesn't make sense to vote.

[stoz]

This is where I am right now:

Akuseru - 55% town
Has been asking good questions and seems to be putting in a good effort.

JoramvanVugt - 45% town
Seems to be a bit all over the place, probably because of newness. Pretty hard to read though.

Bulbazoor - 40% town
Voted me, I posted a rebuttal and which he completely ignored. His reasons for voting me are flimsy and VeeGee was reasonably suspicious too. Plus the replace-out is not null from my point of view.

Thespio - 70% town
HenryCabotLodge - 70% town
Based on the back and forth a few pages ago I am happy for now to think of both of them as town.

StubbsKVM (SE) - 55% town
Seems pretty consistant. Mounting the kind of defence I would expect to see from town

notscience (SE) - 50% town
Started out with some great questions but has gone pretty quiet lately.

Micc (IC) - 55% town
Great activity. I don't really get his angle on StubbsKVM but he has been asking about other people too.

I understand we have to get this moving because the deadline is in about 5 days and we don't really have any good candidates to lynch yet.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I like that Micc is trying to spur discussion, but I think he's harping too much on Stubbs' vote, then non-vote, of VeeGee. I can see Stubbs' reasoning for the vote. The game was at a standstill and there were a lot of lurkers. He didn't necessarily scumread VeeGee, but the lurking was irksome and putting some pressure on him wasn't a bad way to get somebody in the game who hadn't said much yet but was still in an interesting (remember VeeGee was the subject of the first bandwagon). From what I gather, Micc's misgivings come from the fact that he doesn't think you should vote a player you are not actively scumreading, but I don't think the vote was anti-town.

How isnt it?

Its a way to put a vote in play that wont raise many eyebrows. That way he looks like he is scum hunting and hopefully gets town credit.

Unless you're buying that voting newbies after they appear to have flaked is a productive way to make them post?

I'm not sure there's any way to vote that doesn't raise eyebrows. Votes are prominent and noticeable on top of the fact that we get vote counts every page. And who was sure that VeeGee had flaked? I get that newbies replace out of games all the time, but it was just as likely at that point that he was actively lurking.

Its sad you are so obtrusive, Honestly dealing with you isnt worth the trouble, set an example if needs be, but doing so by showing that bullying anyone who questions you looks like you are trying really hard to appear town. Rather then questioning my ability or want to play this game we should probably look at how you have played, you prod dodged until you were called out, once called out you immediately began badgering everyone. If you think its stubbs why haven't you voted him?

It's almost heartening to see Thespio adopt his arrogant tone with somebody else. In a weird way, it makes him look more town because why would scum be so confrontational and prominent when they're trying not to draw suspicion to themselves? Maybe it's wifom, but scum Thespio seems a little less likely than it did before. I am however, annoyed at some of the things here. Thespio what makes Micc's questions "badgering" instead of pro-town discussion? Second, the last sentence of your post is the same reason why I had voted you in the first place (not voting the player you declare to be scummy). Are you saying that it's an illegitimate position to not have your vote on somebody you are prepared to publicly call scum?

[Thespio]

I like that Micc is trying to spur discussion, but I think he's harping too much on Stubbs' vote, then non-vote, of VeeGee. I can see Stubbs' reasoning for the vote. The game was at a standstill and there were a lot of lurkers. He didn't necessarily scumread VeeGee, but the lurking was irksome and putting some pressure on him wasn't a bad way to get somebody in the game who hadn't said much yet but was still in an interesting (remember VeeGee was the subject of the first bandwagon). From what I gather, Micc's misgivings come from the fact that he doesn't think you should vote a player you are not actively scumreading, but I don't think the vote was anti-town.

How isnt it?

Its a way to put a vote in play that wont raise many eyebrows. That way he looks like he is scum hunting and hopefully gets town credit.

Unless you're buying that voting newbies after they appear to have flaked is a productive way to make them post?

I'm not sure there's any way to vote that doesn't raise eyebrows. Votes are prominent and noticeable on top of the fact that we get vote counts every page. And who was sure that VeeGee had flaked? I get that newbies replace out of games all the time, but it was just as likely at that point that he was actively lurking.

Its sad you are so obtrusive, Honestly dealing with you isnt worth the trouble, set an example if needs be, but doing so by showing that bullying anyone who questions you looks like you are trying really hard to appear town. Rather then questioning my ability or want to play this game we should probably look at how you have played, you prod dodged until you were called out, once called out you immediately began badgering everyone. If you think its stubbs why haven't you voted him?

It's almost heartening to see Thespio adopt his arrogant tone with somebody else. In a weird way, it makes him look more town because why would scum be so confrontational and prominent when they're trying not to draw suspicion to themselves? Maybe it's wifom, but scum Thespio seems a little less likely than it did before. I am however, annoyed at some of the things here. Thespio what makes Micc's questions "badgering" instead of pro-town discussion? Second, the last sentence of your post is the same reason why I had voted you in the first place (not voting the player you declare to be scummy). Are you saying that it's an illegitimate position to not have your vote on somebody you are prepared to publicly call scum?

You are obviously not caught up, He had voted him, and its badgering because the question was answered and micc asked it again,And my tone was well placed if you read, where have you been?

[Bulbazoor]

This is where I am right now:

Akuseru - 55% town
Has been asking good questions and seems to be putting in a good effort.

JoramvanVugt - 45% town
Seems to be a bit all over the place, probably because of newness. Pretty hard to read though.

Bulbazoor - 40% town
Voted me, I posted a rebuttal and which he completely ignored. His reasons for voting me are flimsy and VeeGee was reasonably suspicious too. Plus the replace-out is not null from my point of view.

Thespio - 70% town
HenryCabotLodge - 70% town
Based on the back and forth a few pages ago I am happy for now to think of both of them as town.

StubbsKVM (SE) - 55% town
Seems pretty consistant. Mounting the kind of defence I would expect to see from town

notscience (SE) - 50% town
Started out with some great questions but has gone pretty quiet lately.

Micc (IC) - 55% town
Great activity. I don't really get his angle on StubbsKVM but he has been asking about other people too.

I understand we have to get this moving because the deadline is in about 5 days and we don't really have any good candidates to lynch yet.

Your rebuttal seems pretty defensive, and the omgus is doing nothing to change my stance

[HenryCabotLodge]

I like that Micc is trying to spur discussion, but I think he's harping too much on Stubbs' vote, then non-vote, of VeeGee. I can see Stubbs' reasoning for the vote. The game was at a standstill and there were a lot of lurkers. He didn't necessarily scumread VeeGee, but the lurking was irksome and putting some pressure on him wasn't a bad way to get somebody in the game who hadn't said much yet but was still in an interesting (remember VeeGee was the subject of the first bandwagon). From what I gather, Micc's misgivings come from the fact that he doesn't think you should vote a player you are not actively scumreading, but I don't think the vote was anti-town.

How isnt it?

Its a way to put a vote in play that wont raise many eyebrows. That way he looks like he is scum hunting and hopefully gets town credit.

Unless you're buying that voting newbies after they appear to have flaked is a productive way to make them post?

I'm not sure there's any way to vote that doesn't raise eyebrows. Votes are prominent and noticeable on top of the fact that we get vote counts every page. And who was sure that VeeGee had flaked? I get that newbies replace out of games all the time, but it was just as likely at that point that he was actively lurking.

Its sad you are so obtrusive, Honestly dealing with you isnt worth the trouble, set an example if needs be, but doing so by showing that bullying anyone who questions you looks like you are trying really hard to appear town. Rather then questioning my ability or want to play this game we should probably look at how you have played, you prod dodged until you were called out, once called out you immediately began badgering everyone. If you think its stubbs why haven't you voted him?

It's almost heartening to see Thespio adopt his arrogant tone with somebody else. In a weird way, it makes him look more town because why would scum be so confrontational and prominent when they're trying not to draw suspicion to themselves? Maybe it's wifom, but scum Thespio seems a little less likely than it did before. I am however, annoyed at some of the things here. Thespio what makes Micc's questions "badgering" instead of pro-town discussion? Second, the last sentence of your post is the same reason why I had voted you in the first place (not voting the player you declare to be scummy). Are you saying that it's an illegitimate position to not have your vote on somebody you are prepared to publicly call scum?

You are obviously not caught up, He had voted him, and its badgering because the question was answered and micc asked it again,And my tone was well placed if you read, where have you been?

Sorry, I was busy having a real life. Anyway, upon reread, your tone seems misplaced if anything. Why are you so intent on defending Stubbs when he's fully capable of doing it himself? Also, whether Micc had voted when you asked the question is irrelevant- you were under the impression that he hadn't voted for him, otherwise you wouldn't have asked him. So I'll ask again, do you think it's an illegitimate position to not be voting somebody you publicly find scummy?

[Akuseru]

FoS list (in descending order):

red

=scum reading
white=null (dual colours means null but leaning scum/town)

green

= town reading


1.

stoz

2.Stubb

sKVM

3.Joramv

anVugt

4.notscience/Bulbazoor
5.Mi

cc

6.

HenryCabotLodge/Thespio

VOTE: Stoz

Spoiler:

Posts lack substance (mostly game play/theory suggestions or a short comment here and there). Bulba even called it out and stoz’s defence was:

I like to seek clarification from people. Even when what someone says seems obvious, sometimes they actually mean something different, especially as they are sometimes making assumptions about how people play Mafia and some of those people have not been playing very long at all. Less ambiguity also gives less opportunities for scum to hide or twist their previous posts into something different.

I was surprised at this answer since I had stoz down as “guy who posts but doesn’t really post anything”. Most of your posts are NOT clarifications (and if you like to seek clarification from people, you’ve had loads of opportunities to do so…but you didn’t).

As for your current read (my comments are within the quote in red):

This is where I am right now:

Akuseru - 55% town
Has been asking good questions and seems to be putting in a good effort.

Empty read, scum can ask good questions and put “in a good effort”

JoramvanVugt - 45% town
Seems to be a bit all over the place, probably because of newness. Pretty hard to read though.

commentary :/

Bulbazoor - 40% town
Voted me, I posted a rebuttal and which he completely ignored. His reasons for voting me are flimsy and VeeGee was reasonably suspicious too. Plus the replace-out is not null from my point of view.

Reasonably suspicious? How so? You’ve never mentioned that before or explained it here. Did you just decide Veegee was “reasonably suspicious” on the sole reason that he’s being voted by others?

Thespio - 70% town
HenryCabotLodge - 70% town
Based on the back and forth a few pages ago I am happy for now to think of both of them as town.

What about their back and forth makes you think they’re town. There have been a couple of back and forth arguments in the thread between 2 players similar to this one. What makes this exchange so special?

StubbsKVM (SE) - 55% town
Seems pretty consistant. Mounting the kind of defence I would expect to see from town

"The kind of defence [stoz] would expect to see from town" O_O? For someone so big on clarification, one would imagine you’d be appalled at StubbsKVM’s No-I-don’t-want-to-elaborate behaviour.

notscience (SE) - 50% town
Started out with some great questions but has gone pretty quiet lately.

empty read

Micc (IC) - 55% town
Great activity. I don't really get his angle on StubbsKVM but he has been asking about other people too.

If you don’t get the angle why aren’t you trying to understand it or if you don't agree point it out *cough* clarification *cough*.

[Thespio]

Sorry, I was busy having a real life. Anyway, upon reread, your tone seems misplaced if anything. Why are you so intent on defending Stubbs when he's fully capable of doing it himself? Also, whether Micc had voted when you asked the question is irrelevant- you were under the impression that he hadn't voted for him, otherwise you wouldn't have asked him. So I'll ask again, do you think it's an illegitimate position to not be voting somebody you publicly find scummy?

Engaging with you is obviously a waste of time, after further looking into your past 'game' I see you always play this way. I'm willing to admit your fault may be due to newbieness, Seeing as you havent finished a game yet... anyways, Please list who you are reading as scum.

[notscience]

Here tomorrow, wifi was out most of the day.

[Thespio]

Here tomorrow, wifi was out most of the day.

Sweet, I'd love to get your reads!

[JoramvanVugt]

People keep asking if im actually going to play this game.

yes im going to play this game. they ask if i have any reads. I have already shared the fact that i think HCL is guilty but nobody believes that so okay.
i have no other reads.

[Thespio]

@JoramvanVugt, You have no opinions on anyone else?

[Thespio]

So following my gut, honestly i think i was wrong earlier, Looking at previous games of HenryCabotLodge, I see he always plays this way. So here are my new reads:

Akuseru:

Spoiler:

Gut tells me he is mafia, he lurks a little but comes out enough to go unquestioned, he doesnt post anything to draw attention to himself, and while this comes across town, its way to cautious for D1 when you are not accused of anything, we have all been getting town reads, but when he was asked for reads he didnt post them and drew attention back onto StubbsKVM.

Gut feeling is Scum... Thoughts??

stoz:

JoramvanVugt:

Spoiler:

Newbie, no reads, null read, lurks alot but i think its because hes a newbie.

Bulbazoor:

Spoiler:

Seems town, i feel veegee was town, its why i didnt vote him.

HenryCabotLodge:

Spoiler:

Bad player but I see him as town after reviewing his playstyle.

StubbsKVM:

Spoiler:

Leaning scum, quick to vote, slow to answer questions.

notscience:

Spoiler:

Inactive and lurking, Idk about notscience though, im not reading the slot as scum.

Micc:

Spoiler:

Pro town, no questions. Once we got him active he has helped us alot.

thoughts?

[Micc]

Its sad you [Micc] are so obtrusive, Honestly dealing with you isnt worth the trouble, set an example if needs be, but doing so by showing that bullying anyone who questions you looks like you are trying really hard to appear town. Rather then questioning my ability or want to play this game we should probably look at how you have played, you prod dodged until you were called out, once called out you immediately began badgering everyone. If you think its stubbs why haven't you voted him?

Micc:

Spoiler:

Pro town, no questions. Once we got him active he has helped us alot.

thoughts?

Huh?

[Micc]

And i see reads from akuseru so im not sure what you issue there is either. As far as i remember he never actually dodged a question about what his reads were.

[Bulbazoor]

I do not agree on the assumption that aku is scum. The only charge we can make based on game play is that they are trying hard, but that is not even a good basis for a fos. I thini I like my vote for now. This slot was very defensive upon my cqlling them out and they even decided to scumread me because I was scumreading them. That only made my read drift downwards to even more scummy because all he has ever done so far is defend himself when any accusation comes out and even townread stubbs, which is a very scummy player. I barely agree with anynof his reads and their interactuons seem to come from a veery overdefensive stance. And the fact that he even said he scumreads me more than anyone else but never introduces a vote on me is very horrible.

[Thespio]

I do not agree on the assumption that aku is scum. The only charge we can make based on game play is that they are trying hard, but that is not even a good basis for a fos. I thini I like my vote for now. This slot was very defensive upon my cqlling them out and they even decided to scumread me because I was scumreading them. That only made my read drift downwards to even more scummy because all he has ever done so far is defend himself when any accusation comes out and even townread stubbs, which is a very scummy player. I barely agree with anynof his reads and their interactuons seem to come from a veery overdefensive stance. And the fact that he even said he scumreads me more than anyone else but never introduces a vote on me is very horrible.

Thats why I said its more gut than anything else.

[Thespio]

Huh?

I was in a bad mood, but after reading the posts you seem productive, even though u started out a little absent.

[StubbsKVM]

I mean it would fit if you found that sort of stuff scummy, but you wernt scum reading the slot, so it doesn't make sense to vote.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1.9

MEAN TWEETS

stoz

(2): Bulbazoor, Akuseru

HenryCabotLodge

(2): JoramvanVugt, Thespio

JoramvanVugt

(1): StubbsKVM

Thespio

(1): HenryCabotLodge

Bulbazoor

(1): notscience

StubbsKVM

(1): Micc

Not Voting

(1): stoz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: July 19, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2015-07-18 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[StubbsKVM]

"The kind of defence [stoz] would expect to see from town" O_O? For someone so big on clarification, one would imagine you’d be appalled at StubbsKVM’s No-I-don’t-want-to-elaborate behaviour.

Tell me how I don't want to elaborate.

[StubbsKVM]

I don't see any question I've missed, which one are you talking about, Thespio?

NVM I see where u answered it, sorry, why are you all still drilling him? It seems like he has reasoning behind his vote, pressure to cause a statement from veegee, what about that is inadequate?

Are we gonna ignore the fact that Akuseru says he has reads but wont post them...?

StubbsKVM:

Spoiler:

Leaning scum, quick to vote, slow to answer questions.

thoughts?

This doesn't add up. First you admitted I already gave reasoning, now you're scumreading me for not answering. Please explain.

[StubbsKVM]

And i see reads from akuseru so im not sure what you issue there is either. As far as i remember he never actually dodged a question about what his reads were.

Akuseru, do you have any scumreads?

I do.

I understand you want to move on, but when will you address Micc's accusation?

Yes he did.

[Thespio]

This doesn't add up. First you admitted I already gave reasoning, now you're scumreading me for not answering. Please explain.

U answered it, it just took a while, and im not scum reading you, or you would be red, im just cautious of you.

[HenryCabotLodge]

And i see reads from akuseru so im not sure what you issue there is either. As far as i remember he never actually dodged a question about what his reads were.

Akuseru, do you have any scumreads?

I do.

I understand you want to move on, but when will you address Micc's accusation?

Yes he did.

Do you not consider post 206 to be a post of what his reads are?

Sorry, I was busy having a real life. Anyway, upon reread, your tone seems misplaced if anything. Why are you so intent on defending Stubbs when he's fully capable of doing it himself? Also, whether Micc had voted when you asked the question is irrelevant- you were under the impression that he hadn't voted for him, otherwise you wouldn't have asked him. So I'll ask again, do you think it's an illegitimate position to not be voting somebody you publicly find scummy?

Engaging with you is obviously a waste of time, after further looking into your past 'game' I see you always play this way. I'm willing to admit your fault may be due to newbieness, Seeing as you havent finished a game yet... anyways, Please list who you are reading as scum.

Oh my gosh Thespio- please accept my apologies for wasting your precious time asking you questions about your gameplay! You're right, Thespio, I'm a fraud. I'm just a lost babe crying out in the wilderness who has no idea how to scumhunt. If I get anything out of this game it will be only be because of the fact that I learned from Thespio, the scumhunting master. I believe the first lesson of scumhunting with Thespio is posting fascile "reads" with little substance to them. Apparently constantly giving one sentence breakdowns of every player in the game is automatic pro-town play. How stupid of me! Here I thought mafia was about making substantive cases against people and working through them via dialogue with the town. I guess it's all about "gut feelings" and "being active." Thank you for having pity on me, Thespio. I will dutifully post my scumreads now:

Thespio- I'm still voting you and it has nothing to do with your dismissive tone towards me. You never gave me a proper explanation of why you removed your vote on me after I was "obvious scum." In the post I quoted above that you were replying to from me you implied that you think not voting for somebody after publicly calling them scum is an illegitimate reason to vote them. This was the one of the initial reasons for my vote on you. It seems like a logical discrepancy but apparently it's a "waste of time" to ask you about it. You imply that my "newbieness" makes me a bad player but not scummy in your latest post of illuminating "reads" (212). While I'm glad you think I just stink at mafia and am not scum, I have to ask why your vote is still on me if you're currently townreading me. Also, I wonder why you give JoramvanVugt such a wide berth when he and I are apparently on the same level of play. It makes me think of the time he voted me directly after you did while giving almost the same exact reasons (post 86). I guess I'm just a little surprised you don't adopt you supercilious tone when dealing with him and even seem to be coaching him along at points (211) trying to pry some pro-town behavior out of him despite his obvious ineptitude. Given your interactions with almost everyone else, your dealings with JoramvanVugt are surprisingly benign especially given the fact that he has been the biggest lurker this whole game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think lurking is the greatest possible offense against the town (apart from being me of course). Why the kid gloves with JoramvanVugt?

JoramvanVugt- I think it's pretty clear from my post on Thespio what I think of him. I feel bad, because he seems genuinely lost but at some point you have to do something. I wouldn't be surprised if him and Thespio were a scum pair (Thespio in that case being shackled to a corpse). In any event, we need to see more from him.

Stoz- I liked Akuseru's case against him. In a game where posting "reads" seems to be the ultimate pro-town gesture he pops in and posts one that's pretty noncommittal. He even attaches arbitrary percentages to them to give them an air of legitimacy. While lurking is not necessarily a sure sign of scum, it becomes an issue when the player doesn't come back with anything substantive. I believe that falls into the realm of "coasting" which seems way more scummy to me. I'll be interested to see how he replies now that the pressure is on a bit. Those reads are his last post, I see. The rest of his iso is underwhelming- the only other thing of note is his defending himself against a charge that he doesn't look to "clarify things" as he had claimed.

Stubbs- I'm not a huge fan of Stubbs defensiveness, but I'd be a hyprocrite if I was going to scumread him for that. My biggest gripe with him is his association with Thespio who, for whatever reason, took it upon himself to defend Stubbs and declare questioning of him to be a "waste of time." Now I know Stubbs didn't expressly ask for this and it could just as easily be another installment in a long series of displays of arrogance by Thespio, but it still didn't sit right with me. I do see now that Thespio is suspicious of him (?) and he is taking issue with it. I guess this isn't a scumread so much as light suspicion.

I like both Micc and Akuseru- they're both actively questioning people and taking the time to develop cases and SOLID reads. Bulbazoor I need to take more time to look at and read his iso. notscience is neutral to me I need to see more from him.