Mini 1698: MDCXCVIII [C'est fini!]

[WoodyWoodpecker]

Post 81 used the word "admitted".

here is the quote.

If everyone agrees on one person, that's a bad sign, as that means mafia are content with the lynch.
We are better off with everyone grilling their scumread, like you are doing with me right now.

So you're admitting that town gains information if we all agree on one person. But you also don't want us to do it.

please bold the part where he admits that town gains info by agreeing on one person.

[Shazam]

I wasn't sheeping KK, I just didn't have enough of an inclination to vote for you before I saw that it would make a wagon. Obviously I could be lying about that if I'm scum but that would be a bit silly, no?

Sorry, but I'm not a dumb enough player to make a "mistake" like that... I'm more than anything annoyed at being repeatedly questioned on something so inane. It really is meaningless. I would much rather focus on scumhunting, or at least answering questions about things I've done that are actually meaningful. There's no reason that I would backtrack over something so simple as a the reasoning for a page two vote as either alignment.

I might "backtrack" in the sense that I need to (accurately) justify my past behavior if I'm bothered by the pressure regardless of alignment, because regardless of alignment I'd rather pressure be focused elsewhere.

These posts are very consistent in attitude, and thus seem genuine. They appear to come from a mindset of a townie explaining what he would do as scum (sometimes regardless of alignment). Thus I have a townread on implosion atm, Dominator.

[WoodyWoodpecker]

why can't you see that he attempted to change the context of the conversation, waffled, and then left the game because of what I was saying?

1. he did try to change the context of the conversation by trying to get town to spread attention around instead of focusing on 1 person. That's a pro-town move imo.
2. I don't think he waffled at al.
3. We don't know why he left the game. Do you have more info than what is available in the thread? because as far as I can tell he did not provide a reason for replacing out and anything you think is the reason is just pure speculation and you are biased by your scum read.

[Shazam]

Can I just point out that Dominator's post rate has dropped significantly since fewer people have been voting him? Could it be more painfully obvious that he is more interested in self-preservation than finding scum?

this post is manipulative because you are implying that the only reason why his post rate has dropped is due to less people voting him and ignoring or not even considering other things like real life stuff.

No, I'm implying it is consistent with such behavior we have already seen anyway.

Post 81 used the word "admitted".

here is the quote.

If everyone agrees on one person, that's a bad sign, as that means mafia are content with the lynch.
We are better off with everyone grilling their scumread, like you are doing with me right now.

So you're admitting that town gains information if we all agree on one person. But you also don't want us to do it.

please bold the part where he admits that town gains info by agreeing on one person.

You clearly didn't read post 523. He can admit it without saying it word for word. When he says "that means mafia are content with the lynch", he is very clearly saying something from which (if it were true) we could draw the conclusion that town would gain information.

[WoodyWoodpecker]

No, I'm implying it is consistent with such behavior we have already seen anyway.

no, please stop.

[implosion]

imo, the only people that even COULD be scumread are Mario/Dom, you (Woodpecker), implosion, Boonskiees, and GrayFoxxx. So I'll ask you this: which of those seems scummiest to you?

Just saw this gem in Shazam's iso... apart from Mario, it reads like a who's-who of my strong townreads <_>. I guess his point is just that no one else had posted enough, but I think I just disagree with that in general. Also idk. There's just so much fucking black-and-white rhetoric going on. It's really starting to piss me off. This is a complex fucking game. Almost nothing is ever fucking black-and-white until it's over. Reads are a good thing. Saying "I don't think anyone could possibly read anyone else as scum outside of these five people" is just patently absurd. It's like trying to say that anyone who disagrees with you is

a priori

wrong, which is just not how productive debate occurs. Maybe I'm just seeing a couple instances of it and it feels like it's everywhere but idk.

We're not going to get anywhere productive like this... although i guess ultimately the problem right now with this game is that there's a large group of lurkers, and I think that a lot of the scum are in the lurkers (including NE, who I'm counting just because no one is in his slot right now so the slot can't post).

My gut at this point says Dom is town. I don't have the best explicit reasoning for that, it just feels like he hasn't been playing like scum replacing into a slot under pressure. And I just don't agree with any of the points on him with the possible exception of the one I've mentioned (the replacing out as scum under pressure point). And Idk, part of me thinks that this game sort of makes sense on a very vague level if Shazam is scum, but that's a terrible reason to scumread Shazam.

Still reading though.

[Shazam]

why can't you see that he attempted to change the context of the conversation, waffled, and then left the game because of what I was saying?

1. he did try to change the context of the conversation by trying to get town to spread attention around instead of focusing on 1 person. That's a pro-town move imo.
2. I don't think he waffled at al.
3. We don't know why he left the game. Do you have more info than what is available in the thread? because as far as I can tell he did not provide a reason for replacing out and anything you think is the reason is just pure speculation and you are biased by your scum read.

1. He claimed that he wasn't talking about attention, but rather about literally mislynching someone, which he was not.
2. He did. From post 79 to post 152 he went from "it means mafia are content with the lynch" to "mafia can bus". Blatant reversal of the conclusions he was attempting to draw from the theoretical situation in view.
3. It's true that I don't know for a fact that this is why he left. But it has already been mentioned that this is consistent with scum Mario.

[implosion]

I guess a lot of those players aren't even really lurking. They're just relatively inactive relative to the average.

[WoodyWoodpecker]

He can admit it without saying it word for word. When he says "that means mafia are content with the lynch"

you realize the "mafia is content with the lynch" doesn't mean he is saying it is a good idea for town to focus on 1 person. He is using that as a reason to NOT focus on 1 person.

mafia's best gift is a completely town lead mislynch and tha is basically saying he thinks would happen if town focused on 1 person.

he never ever said or implied town was better off focusing on 1 person, so try again.

[TheDominator37]

Shazam could you answer my question

And implosion what are your thoughts on shazam?

[Shazam]

imo, the only people that even COULD be scumread are Mario/Dom, you (Woodpecker), implosion, Boonskiees, and GrayFoxxx. So I'll ask you this: which of those seems scummiest to you?

Just saw this gem in Shazam's iso... apart from Mario, it reads like a who's-who of my strong townreads <_>. I guess his point is just that no one else had posted enough, but I think I just disagree with that in general. Also idk. There's just so much fucking black-and-white rhetoric going on. It's really starting to piss me off. This is a complex fucking game. Almost nothing is ever fucking black-and-white until it's over. Reads are a good thing. Saying "I don't think anyone could possibly read anyone else as scum outside of these five people" is just patently absurd. It's like trying to say that anyone who disagrees with you is

a priori

wrong, which is just not how productive debate occurs. Maybe I'm just seeing a couple instances of it and it feels like it's everywhere but idk.

We're not going to get anywhere productive like this... although i guess ultimately the problem right now with this game is that there's a large group of lurkers, and I think that a lot of the scum are in the lurkers (including NE, who I'm counting just because no one is in his slot right now so the slot can't post).

Note the "strong" that you apply to your townreads on those players. This is precisely my point. Only those people who post significant content can be strongly read. At that point in the game, and to some extent now, the people I listed were, besides myself, the only people with significant content. Thus I was not saying "people who disagree with me are automatically wrong", but "people who think they find scum outside of these people cannot show themselves to be right".

I agree that at least one lurker is probably scum. But it's easier to find them later.

[Bulbazoor]

You forgot that you scumread me.

[Shazam]

Shazam could you answer my question

And implosion what are your thoughts on shazam?

post 526 on this very page?

[implosion]

The angle that I'm looking at this game right now is something like this.

I'm not interested in pursuing any of {Woody, Boon, Gray, dragon, pisskop} more today.
{FA, Stubbs} idk. I think i get a scumvibe from Stubbs's ISO and a townvibe from FA's so we'll put them in those buckets weakly for now.
Dom gut says town. This is very much open to change but I have yet to see something strong enough to sway me.
Khan I just feel like for the most part people are reading too strongly into everything he's said/done but I think there's a good chance he's scum.
NE's slot is my strongest scumread but the replace-out doesn't exactly help me have strong opinions about this game...
Bulba is kind of a very weak gut townread right now. A lot of the phrasings on his posts feel genuine (like 297) which is somewhat subtle, and I also liked the fact that he immediately gave a reads list after I criticized him for being narrow in scope.

And that leaves Shazam. A lot of his posts are dense rhetoric/logic, and I don't think being logical is really a tell. I guess an ordering right now looks something like this:

NE ~~~~ Stubbs ~ Khan ~ Shazam ~ FA ~ Dom ~ Bulba ~~~~ Core townreads.

Still need to look more closely at Shazam but every time I look at his ISO I get nowhere.

[Shazam]

You forgot that you scumread me.

If this is addressed to me:
Would you please stop lying and thinking you'll get away with it just because you don't provide backup for anything? This is actually the only post of yours I've found particularly scummy.

If not:
Who are you talking to?

[implosion]

I like Dom asking Shazam about me and then me about Shazam. That seems like an action more likely coming from town who's genuinely interested in their two top scumreads than scum who had that idea pop into their head.

[Bulbazoor]

I was talking to gray

[WoodyWoodpecker]

1. He claimed that he wasn't talking about attention, but rather about literally mislynching someone, which he was not.
2. He did. From post 79 to post 152 he went from "it means mafia are content with the lynch" to "mafia can bus". Blatant reversal of the conclusions he was attempting to draw from the theoretical situation in view.
3. It's true that I don't know for a fact that this is why he left. But it has already been mentioned that this is consistent with scum Mario.

1. I don't really see that as a big deal though. Certainly not enough to lynch somebody over.
2. I don't really see this as waffling because it's the truth. If town all band together and lynches a player and the player flips town, mafia can stay off the wagon to gain town cred. If the person being run up is mafia, mafia can bus for town cred. It's not an either/or type thing like you are making it out to be
3. meta so I will just ignore anything meta. meta is unreliable imo. Plus did you verify it for yourself that he replaces out as scum? did you look at the game(s) to see what the circumstances were? even than I would probably ignore it because meta is bad.


good night

[GrayFoxxxx]

He can admit it without saying it word for word. When he says "that means mafia are content with the lynch"

you realize the "mafia is content with the lynch" doesn't mean he is saying it is a good idea for town to focus on 1 person. He is using that as a reason to NOT focus on 1 person.

mafia's best gift is a completely town lead mislynch and tha is basically saying he thinks would happen if town focused on 1 person.

he never ever said or implied town was better off focusing on 1 person, so try again.

I tried to tell him this and more a few pages back

[GrayFoxxxx]

You forgot that you scumread me.

I was talking to gray

No I didn't?

[implosion]

Note the "strong" that you apply to your townreads on those players. This is precisely my point. Only those people who post significant content can be strongly read. At that point in the game, and to some extent now, the people I listed were, besides myself, the only people with significant content. Thus I was not saying "people who disagree with me are automatically wrong", but "people who think they find scum outside of these people cannot show themselves to be right".

I agree that at least one lurker is probably scum. But it's easier to find them later.

Eh, this is true to some degree. I've had strong townreads from minimal posts before but I guess those are mostly exceptions.

I guess what I disagree with is the conclusion (if this is what you would say) that this means we should focus on those people. I think my strongest two scumreads right now in NE/Stubbs are both in the lurk pool and I would rather focus towards them because I want to maximize the odds of lynching scum.

I guess my ultimate hope is that these seemingly pointless circles of rhetoric will magically end with all of the townies involved townreading each other and that it looks nigh impossible that that's going to happen. I could of course be wrong about all those reads but ~~~~~

[WoodyWoodpecker]

I tried to tell him this and more a few pages back

what do you make of his refusal to back down and change his opinion.

also do you think mario's replacement vote on shazam was omgus?

[GrayFoxxxx]

I tried to tell him this and more a few pages back

what do you make of his refusal to back down and change his opinion.

also do you think mario's replacement vote on shazam was omgus?

I just don't understand why he has tunneled mario the way he has. Most of his post are playing semantics, and debating subjective game theory.

I would be lying if mario replacing out didn't worry me a bit. What if he was scum , and couldn't handle pressure, and shazam is right for the wrong reasons. (I doubt this situation in this case)

I don't think doms vote is OMGUS. Not every vote that could be OMGUS, is OMGUS.

[Shazam]

1. He claimed that he wasn't talking about attention, but rather about literally mislynching someone, which he was not.
2. He did. From post 79 to post 152 he went from "it means mafia are content with the lynch" to "mafia can bus". Blatant reversal of the conclusions he was attempting to draw from the theoretical situation in view.
3. It's true that I don't know for a fact that this is why he left. But it has already been mentioned that this is consistent with scum Mario.

1. I don't really see that as a big deal though. Certainly not enough to lynch somebody over.
2. I don't really see this as waffling because it's the truth. If town all band together and lynches a player and the player flips town, mafia can stay off the wagon to gain town cred. If the person being run up is mafia, mafia can bus for town cred. It's not an either/or type thing like you are making it out to be
3. meta so I will just ignore anything meta. meta is unreliable imo. Plus did you verify it for yourself that he replaces out as scum? did you look at the game(s) to see what the circumstances were? even than I would probably ignore it because meta is bad.


good night

2. HE made it out to be an either/or type thing in post 79. I was responding to HIS framing of the situation and HIS waffling on it.

I was talking to gray

Who hadn't posted since 510? What? VOTE: Bulbazoor
I intentionally gave you the opportunity to say you weren't talking to me even though you obviously were, because I wanted to see if you were lying town or lying scum. This is further clinched by the fact that it didn't make sense to say to Gray. If I'm wrong about this, give me the context of Gray's that you were responding to.

[Bulbazoor]

wrote

So we all think each other is scum? What's your point? And what do you mean I'm not helping you with it?