Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[fferyllt]

I more or less agree with your thoughts about gnomeo's tammy case. And prior to reading his one theme game, I thought he's showing much more depth and development of his reads than he had in his earlier game. hoh is sort of an enigma in his meta.

[Cheetory6]

To be perfectly honest, I'm feeling a little discouraged atm and I'm neglecting a bunch of shit in general atm.
I do intend to pull my shit together and get my head in this game, but I have to be an asshole and wait until I have the time to take this seriously or I'm not going to be doing anything useful when I'm posting here.
I'd understand if I look a little tasty for a lynch right now, but I promise that if you give me enough time, I'll make it super clear that I got a townPM this game q.q

[pieguyn]

Let’s talk at people about this instead of asking me about it weeeeeeee.

these kind of posts bug the hell out of me bc from what I remember Cheetory is more than capable of providing thoughts from the outside without having to engage with anyone - iirc this is what he did the majority of the mini normal we had together where I was scum. the way he keeps bringing this up feels like he's using it as a throwaway excuse to push people - it's not something that's explicitly scummy. while I believe he doesn't like people talking past him regardless of alignment, I think his focus on it here is entirely out of place.

Yeah well, I don't like that you're not probing me on the details of this stuff, and are instead just kind of throwing it out there. So I guess we’re even

When you scumread Empire/Zar/Espe in S&V it felt like, to me, that you were asking them questions to try and put them down if they were scum, where here you're just kind of throwing stuff out there and saying it feels off without having done anything about it.

Like. To me, it seems a lot like you're trying to set up a scumread on me so you have options, rather than actually trying to figure me out and all of this "these things make me feel weird but Iunno" feels like a weird amount of uncertainty to be throwing around while you're not even really trying to engage me on things. Are you just kind of hoping I'll sort myself out? Because this passive scumhunting feels off, especially since I have already poked at you and in response you've just kind of flopped semi-angrily at me.

I hated this bc it felt entirely arbitrary. his angle here is that Tammy is scum because ... she's laying out thoughts in her posts as opposed to specifically engaging people about them? why is her not engaging indicative of her not trying to figure him out when it's pretty fucking obvious she's at the very least reading and analyzing his posts? it makes no sense to try and push that engagement is necessary for forming reads, and I think he'd know this.

the other thing I'm wondering is that, if he actually thought this, why he's not questioning me for the same thing. I haven't directly engaged with anyone at all this game, yet he doesn't seem to have any problem attempting to read me based entirely around the reasoning I'm pushing (253).

@Gnomeo

, do you intend on being stubborn every time someone tries to reach out/pull apart your scumread on Tammy by just asking them why they're doing it?
Why is Tammy buddying Nacho and not scum trying to emulate a very distinctive manner in which she tends to open her towngames? What does she have to gain by being so overt if that's her goal in the former situation?

I didn't like this bc for one it came after 3 people pointed out the exact same thing. I think there is scum motivation here in that 1. he's getting a fuckton of blowback for the Tammy push and this allows him to posture to back off and push Gnomeo instead later if he wants; 2. Gnomeo was a main wagon at this point and it serves to push it from the sidelines without actually getting involved with it. the other thing is that these questions at the end are really soft. given what Gnomeo did so far, why would he expect him to be aware Tammy usually opens games in the way she did as town at the point where he asked the question? why *wouldn't* scum-Tammy buddy Nacho in the way she did here if she wanted to buddy Nacho? it reads like scum flow-going and throwing in a few extra questions in the end in order to appear like they're producing original content.

@Cheetory:

this was directed towards everyone, but I'd like if you could respond to/engage with me on this bc I'm aware you tend not to like people talking past you regardless of what your alignment is. I think that, if you're town here, you should stop focusing on stuff like that bc it reads more like you're using it as an easy excuse to push people than anything.

p-edit: I see your posts. response incoming.

[pieguyn]

What are your thoughts about RC?

I actually still haven't reread him. I'm willing to accept Nacho saying he'd have faked frustration differently if that's what he was going for, though. what are your thoughts?

I more or less agree with your thoughts about gnomeo's tammy case. And prior to reading his one theme game, I thought he's showing much more depth and development of his reads than he had in his earlier game. hoh is sort of an enigma in his meta.

I agree with this in terms of him showing depth in his read here.

[pieguyn]

I actually don't make anything out of Anen saying I'm "shadowing" the wagon on him and then leaving me off the list of people shadowing his wagon anyway. it's equally as likely, for instance, that he just forgot about me when he made that list. however, I don't think anything he's done has been remotely town.

I agree with just about everything Wicked has been posting recently. 446 in particular nailed a lot of the problems I had with Nacho's posts at the start of the game.

[fferyllt]

Re RC I'm leaning town. It's not a strong lean and I'd like to see more discussion from him.

I'm not picking up a lot of scum vibes in this game. :/

[pieguyn]

also I want notsci to get the hell in here and start towning up bc, while I think he *might* be town, I don't feel anywhere near as strongly about it as I usually do with him. as I said, I liked 299, but that's basically it.

[pieguyn]

Re RC I'm leaning town. It's not a strong lean and I'd like to see more discussion from him.

I'm not picking up a lot of scum vibes in this game. :/

what's making you lean town on him?

[fferyllt]

experiential meta. I've played against scum-RC a couple times, and town RC once. This doesn't feel like his scum games. he plays a very assured and town-looking game as scum.

I'm cautious and I want to keep reevaluating but so far I feel like he's town here.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought it was - you gave him scum hunting advice (which is only relevant for him if he's town).

That was me explaining where my mindset was in response to Cheetory pointing out that I seemed too comfortable with too many town reads.

[Nachomamma8]

I like pie's previous posts quite a bit, but I'd love his Cheetory thoughts a whole lot more of they came with a vote.

[RedCoyote]

frey/Nacho + others, I appreciate y'all sticking up for me in spite of me ignoring the game the last couple of days. I've been crazy busy at work. I'd go into details, but I know y'all don't want to hear my problems.

I will make it a point to give make a big post later today.

[Empire]

DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 12

Cheetory6 (2)

-

Nachomamma8, Wickedestjr

Aneninen (2)

-

Vinkah, Layla

Tammy (2)

-

Gnomeo, Cheetory6

Gnomeo (1)

-

notscience

RedCoyote (1)

-

pieguyn

pieguyn (1)

-

implosion

notscience (1)

-

RedCoyote

Vinkah (1)

-

Aneninen

Nachomamma8 (1)

-

Tammy

Not Voting (1)

-

fferyllt

Mod Notes

-

Aneninen is V/LA until Thursday.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch! Deadline is on July 30th at 12:00 PM EST or in (expired on 2015-07-30 12:00:00).

[Empire]

Prodding Layla.

[Cheetory6]

I don't remember any of that, and perhaps it was after I replaced out? I don't know why people think I should have some recollection of things that have nothing to do with me.

So it's okay for you to be inaccurate with meta, but much less leniency the other way around?

You also originally thought it was odd that I focused a lot on me, but then you reread my iso and realized that in the context of the conversations happening in real time that it made sense. I thought that looked town of you because you could have easily thrown suspicion on me for faking not knowing the set up. Also rereading and thinking the things looked normal in the context of the conversation read inquisitive and your reads came out of that looking like you were honestly trying to figure out the game.

[All of this came past earlygame BUT I MEAN I'M LITERALLY BEING PRESERVATIONIST BY ARGUING THIS SO WHATEVS].

I'm going to try to be really patient because I'm really getting the impression that people are overhyping how strongly I felt about these Tammy metapoints I was making and that's probably moreso my fault where any potential scum isn't trying to take advantage of me right now haha. I tend to vote wherever my gut feels strongest about someone being scum and if I'm not feeling incredibly concrete about logic, I usually tend to just call it gut and leave it at that until I have something better and I just didn't do that this time. I wanted to get things on the table so I just said what I was thinking at the time, which is that it felt like Tammy might be coming from a disingenuous place with how she'd started the game and I thought I made it clear that it was largely a feeling and I knew it wasn't based in some empirical or logical thing and I also didn't feel super duper strong about it.

So in my head, I think "Tammy not having a lynchpool is realistically not that scummy and it only kind of feels scummy to me", but I guess to others it came across as "you're trying to get Tammy lynched/you're making a case on her!" which is really really not even close to what was going on in my head q.q.
If my sole intention was to shade Tammy, I would have probably have been more dedicated to it and if my sole intention was to try to look like town producing content, I feel I would have argued with Tammy more instead of shying away from it.
I guess there's the whole argument of that I could be playing badly as either alignment, which is totally fair, so, shrugs I guess!

You both have this underlying "I'm suspected already oh no that's not right whatever will I do" feel to you.

Sure. But how does this have anything to do with what you were talking about here though?

I completely believe that you know that I'll talk about my scum reads the exact way I have here.

I'm pretty sure you asked Zar/Empire a lot more questions in S&V than you have here, so, no? I don't know this? I'm also really curious as to why you think I know this when you're at the same time giving me shit for expecting you to know things about how I play? :/

So, what's comparable to here? This is early game, you don't have a lot of content, I don't know you so I wouldn't know exactly what to prod you about, and I'm giving impressions of the people in this game and what my concerns are.

You're probably right here and there probably isn't much that is actually comparable here. However, it felt comparable at the time of writing the post in my gut at the time and I don't think that I ever tried to imply that it was anything more than a feeling.

I need to stop writing this post because I actually kind of want to scream mid-writing it. q.q

[Cheetory6]

Okay.

You're using incorrect meta on me while claiming that it's not right/fair that people are using signs and voids, which also using signs and voids to put suspicion on me. And yes, I do want you to sort yourself out. How I read people is quite often how they read/interact with the game. I poke at things as I think they're going to help me. I'm not going to force myself to ask things just to do it. I know when things are off in my town game, but there's not anything off in my game and I feel pretty strong here, so I'm really not sure what you're seeing.

That would be pretty scummy if this was what I was saying. But I never said you couldn't compare S&V to here. If I'm fucking useless at day two and haven't done shit all then I would embrace being scumread for it with open arms, but that isn't what was happening and you should know that I wasn't saying this at all.
I said it felt like people were taking the entirety of how I was playing in S&V and saying "WHY IS YOUR OPENING IN THIS GAME IN WHICH YOU'RE VLA NOT AS STRONG AS YOUR MID-ENDGAME IN S&V AH", which was probably wrong, but it's how I felt.

You did a similar thing in which you dismissed my thoughts before I could even finish.

How so?

She came back to point out that she was calling me out and then told me to respond to her other post. While quoting my post in which I said that I had other things to talk about and would later, and clarified that I got a text message mid post and left. That's annoying. I would expect anyone who was actually reading and actually trying to figure things out, when it's clarified that that "I unexpectedly have to walk out the door, this was supposed to be more insightful. It will have to wait until tomorrow." was that I literally left mid-post that the response wouldn't be a stubborn blowback of "oh I was calling you out blah blah bla". What I would expect from town would be, ah I didn't catch that, because to me if her big suspicion of me was that I didn't change my vote my response that I left mid thought would answer for that.

I'll try to reread that exchange with this angle in mind sometime soon, because I think this might make sense but I need to actually look it over and follow it from start to finish.

This feels like a weird post to make after making a post all about how you think I'm scum.

I felt weird writing it to be fair. It was the only thought I had after finishing going through Gnomeo's ISO.

I don't like the case on Tammy because it seems to be entirely built on subtle differences between signs and void play and play here. Assertions like "she has a lynch pool, she's generally focused" really bothers me because it not only is it based on a stupidly small sample size, its also not a very convincing reason for anyone to think someone is scum, especially when the "focused" reads Tammy possessed in SV was a grand total of 1.

Literally the only thing I would call case-ish from my posting wrt Tammy is her getting angry at Layla didn't make sense to me. Remind me in the future to just say fucking nothing if I don't feel it's the most indicative thing. -.-

I don't like the reasonable/unreasonable anger point: as RC said, emotions change. People are happy, angry, crying over syrup, and that emotion leaks into their posting. I feel like this is something Cheetory would realize as town and thus not a whole lot of excitement in the point, but Cheetory picked up on it because it's a surface difference that is pretty easily questioned.

I'm pffting at you.
Real hard.
Faking being angry is an easy way to generate content, seem genuine and get townread.

[Layla]

Where is Layla?

Said nobody ever.

I'll be busy till Friday so I'll be back at Friday.

[Wickedestjr]

Pie, thanks for the answer wrt Gnomeo.

I thought it was - you gave him scum hunting advice (which is only relevant for him if he's town).

That was me explaining where my mindset was in response to Cheetory pointing out that I seemed too comfortable with too many town reads.

Oh, it looked like Cheeto was saying that

he

had too many town reads too. Am I reading this wrong:

Because I'm getting genuine vibes from a lot of places and I'm constantly trying to resist the urge to townread most of them because I know the caliber of scumplay in this game is probably going to be higher than average.
I don't know if that makes sense and isn't just me being mumbly about foggy details, but it's like, I just get this really strong feeling that someone is playing well and I'm scared of the fact that I want to sheep you on this without having even looked at Gnomeo in detail yet q.q

?

Where is Layla?

Said nobody ever.

We were all thinking it though!

[Wickedestjr]

Faking being angry is an easy way to generate content, seem genuine and get townread.

-generate content: getting mad at Layla for not seeing that she had left her house doesn't create content, it's pretty game-irrelevant
-seem genuine: regardless of her alignment, I'm sure Tammy's telling the truth about having left her house
-get townread: I still have trouble believing that you think Tammy-scum would actually try this, if anything it creates an enemy in the person that she is getting angry with

I need to stop writing this post because I actually kind of want to scream mid-writing it. q.q

This feels like more hypocrisy. Are

you

trying to get townread by saying this? This comment doesn't really seem to fit in with its post.

[Wickedestjr]

I still like my Cheeto vote.

Beyond that, I'm (also) struggling to develop scum reads. POE made me think ffery or pie might be scum, but the meta check on ffery and pie's recent posts are starting to make me think otherwise for them too.

Anxious to hear what the recent busy bees have to say...

[Cheetory6]

-generate content: getting mad at Layla for not seeing that she had left her house doesn't create content, it's pretty game-irrelevant
-seem genuine: regardless of her alignment, I'm sure Tammy's telling the truth about having left her house
-get townread: I still have trouble believing that you think Tammy-scum would actually try this, if anything it creates an enemy in the person that she is getting angry with

It could generate content if Tammy and Layla had a huge back and forth over it that was noisy, you might be right that Tammy probably isn't the kind of person who would do this as scum, I do remember thinking that she might be trying to fake-emulate how she got angry at people in S&V but I'm leaning increasingly that maybe I just shouldn't say anything until I'm 100% caught up and sure that I'm 100% behind every single word I say before saying it.

This feels like more hypocrisy. Are you trying to get townread by saying this? This comment doesn't really seem to fit in with its post.

I erased about thirty snarky comments. I can only handle having a lot of my content being called stupid or wrong so many times before I start to get frustrated. I realize that my entry to this game was arrogant as fuck and I'm trying to walk myself back to a point where I'm caught up, responded to everything and have actually strong reads I like before pushing forward. It's just hard because I feel like I'm tripping over myself like a fucking idiot and everyone else is playing so well that I just feel like an asshole.

[Cheetory6]

Like, in all seriousness, I think I just need to take my catch-up slowly, because I don't want to turn this into a pity party or something and every time I go to try and take in all of the things people are saying at how I'm playing all at once it kind of gets to me.
So, by all means, make the wagon on me happen, because I'm definitely playing the worst out of everyone in this game atm and it might even be informative, but just don't be expecting great things out of me when a dogpile is happening on me haha.

[Gnomeo]

not able to catch up today, sorry.

[Wickedestjr]

It could generate content if Tammy and Layla had a huge back and forth over it that was noisy,

Seems like a stretch.

I'm leaning increasingly that maybe I just shouldn't say anything until I'm 100% caught up and sure that I'm 100% behind every single word I say before saying it.

Well I think it's hard to be 100% certain about anything. But obviously you must have had some level of confidence in the point considering you voted her for it. If you had just off-handedly said "Tammy's anger here feels fake", then that probably wouldn't have bothered me too much. But you voted her for it, which expresses a level of strength that I have more difficulty understanding (even if it wasn't 100% certainty). What is your read on Tammy

right now

?

I can only handle having a lot of my content being called stupid or wrong so many times before I start to get frustrated.

I can't remember much of this...

It's just hard because I feel like I'm tripping over myself like a fucking idiot and everyone else is playing so well that I just feel like an asshole.

The Tammy vote is really the only aspect of your play that bothers me right now. This could be a genuine sentiment, but it hasn't felt like your frustration has been entirely with yourself (like this quote implies).

[fferyllt]

Like, in all seriousness, I think I just need to take my catch-up slowly, because I don't want to turn this into a pity party or something and every time I go to try and take in all of the things people are saying at how I'm playing all at once it kind of gets to me.
So, by all means, make the wagon on me happen, because I'm definitely playing the worst out of everyone in this game atm and it might even be informative, but just don't be expecting great things out of me when a dogpile is happening on me haha.

you were under more pressure in the advance wars game, I thought. There was a lot more data in the game thread when you replaced in, so it's hard to draw comparisons.

But, the stuff I found in your offsite scum games aren't here. I'm going to look at your completed ms games.

Wish I hadn't talked about your offsite meta in my neighborhood in that game!