Mini 1706 - Pula Mafia (over)

[catboi]

Hai, I'm a miller~

VOTE: Catboi

for perpetuating the unhealthy obession with cats and anime on this website..

those things are good, though~

VOTE: Scorpious

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Grib

Those aren't legit reads.

[catboi]

Have stuff I want to say but I'll answer the questions just for fun first

1. Sweet or salty?
2. Favorite word of all time?
3. Who have you played with before and describe them in one word.
4. Link to the most recent complete town or scum game

1. I like things that are sweet~
2. Love
3. Not anyone that I can remember, it's been a while since I've played
4. I haven't played in over a year and I was pretty crap in the last few games I played. Was actually embarrassing going through them. Here's one where I was actually active: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=38899

[catboi]

How do you feel about the Miller claim. My gut tells me its bullshit..

lmao

Why are you asking this, and not voting me? Looking for support for a wagon?

They're meta reads, which are lazy, but the votes on me are just as lazy so I think that puts us at an impasse.

Maybe I'll do something once I've slept for a bit.

Don't like the dismissal here at all, I was probably a little too brief with my vote but a post like #30 on page 2 of a game reads entirely like someone trying too hard, too early. For reference, to that point, this was Atums only post, and there's no way anyone could or should read anything alignment-telling from something like that. Malakittens similarly hadn't said many relevant tings to that point. It's just assigning townreads to seem active. Second line on elusive is a weak, cautious statement which directs suspicion at them without really saying anything of value. ditto regarding me, reads more like someone keeping options open for lynches than doing any legitimate analysis, and then the vote is throwaway rvs nonsense. The whole thing never reads like a town thought process at any point.

Right now the miller claim should be left as is. Idk im not saying it's scummy or town because it's just a claim, but if he's town gives him more points so I kinda like it.

I should be around more tommorow. I haven't felt well all day today x.c

If I'm town...the claim makes me...more town? What?

[catboi]

Catboi grib has a bunch of exp with me tbh so the early read on me doesnt bother me that much

I gathered as much, it just doesn't really matter because there's no way hose reads come that quickly from a legitimate thought process, whereas they would come quick from someone looking to get their foot in the door and seem town

[catboi]

I fully understand getting meta reads on someone but Gribs posts come across as imitations of meta reads rather than anything genuine. Don't remotely find the argument of "this is just how someone plays" convincing against reads that implausible, comes across as more of an excuse to avoid doing actual analysis

I'm just wondering why catboi would claim. For example if I had a negative utility role (if Miller here means gets a guilty from the Cop) then I would 1. not out my role and instead fake crumb cop to protect the real cop and 2. dance on the rooftops to goad scum into trying to NK me again to protect power roles.

So now I'm figuring out why the self-preservationy play if this is town or if this is scum then? I mean obviously if catboi doesn't flip soon then what? I'm not sure. It's like a player claiming Vanilla, its pointless and annoying since it narrows the pool for scum NKs. Don't do it.

Claiming as miller is commonly accepted practice everywhere I've played. To me there's no purpose whatsoever in hiding , risks wasting both a cop investigation and a mislynch were I to get checked, and holding off on claiming means I'm far less likely to be believed when I do claim (I will claw the eyeballs out of anyone who says this is being overly cautious). You want to debate theory, you can do it in mafia discussion but claiming miller isn't anything out of the ordinary.

[catboi]

because it's not possible to develop a legitimate read that early, certainly not given the available info, and comes across as trying too hard to give an appearance of being town

[catboi]

Catching up:

Wait.

VOTE: elusive

Voting a claimed miller.

Not a fan of this vote. While I think elusive's vote on me was ignorant of site meta and accepted strategy, that's also why it doesn't come across as scummy - she really thought me outing was suspicious.

When u come back and there's 5 pages 0.0

What the hell is this? 5 pages in 2 days is practically nothing, in fact the activity level in this game has been woeful especially given the short deadlines. Stuff like this is totally unacceptable.

I kind of wanna vote catboi because his miller claim looks fishy, and yet I don't nessacarily think claiming miller would be the best option for a scum, for example if there was a cop not in the game your basically gonna lose if you go to lylo, and if there is another miller then they can counterclaim (multiple millers aren't very common)

I guess I'm gonna keep my vote on grib. Nothing else really catches my eye. Also if this game doesn't take off like team rocket real quick, then we are gonna end up with a random lynch.

You mention that now, on page 5? While you're on the same wagon as me? And my claim is fishy but...not the best option for scum? What the hell are you even saying?

VOTE: superbowl9
Umm..we have like 8 day deadlines and you think what 5 pages is a lot? It's nothing. Now, 40 pages at this point might be a lot. 20 would be decent.

While I agree that superbowl's post is pathetic it's not worth voting him for at this point, although antitown it doesn't necessarily hve any scum motivation. He needs to either step up or be replaced.

[catboi]

@Mod: can you please not edit the posts of players in your game to fill them with inane, uninteresting garbage? It makes the game harder to read and isn't entertaining, just frustrating

[catboi]

I don't care about the flavor, editing it into posts is incredibly disruptive

[catboi]

Liking what superbowl's posting.

This is so, so, so bad:

Maxous,how do you feel about Catboi's miller claim?

Also I don't really have any tells right now

we probbably have a cop if we have a miller but that isn't proven yet

How do you feel about the Miller claim. My gut tells me its bullshit..

@Lalendra,and Gray.

Do you support the lynch on Grib? Why or why not?

@Grib, your content has come from meta and looking at the wiki. Do you have anything to say about the current game without referencing an outside source?

what is your townread on elusive based on?

I do agree,the millet claim feels scummy.

Looking to others to produce content while being fixated on my claim, saying it looks fake but not justifying that in any way

and I thought at first he wasn't voting me because I didn't realize

he hasn't even moved his vote from RVS

Lynch this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Scorpious

[catboi]

But I thought you said you think my claim is BS? why are you unvoting me? lmfao

[catboi]

Ok,catboi so I make a mistake and remedy it.. You still have problems, yes I find your claim bullshit..

I think you are scum, I think claiming miller makes it super convinient for you to install a defense. If you get investigated you can just be like "see, I claimed miller". If they even investigate you.. Frankly I dont understand why all scum doesn't do that.

Scenario A- the potential cop buys your claim. Leaves you alone and you skate.

Scenario B- they investigate you,you come up guilty,but have your fake claim installed as a defense,its lazy..

Now you just use shitty piss poor excuses to vote me..

so now its a legit vote.VOTE: catboi

lolll this response immediately after I call him out on it

@catboi, in 123 you call super bowl "unacceptable". Then in 171 you say you like what he's posting,then turn to me. What in those 40 posts was said to move you from calling him "totally unacceptable" to liking him?

Simple. He actually started posting content, something you have yet to do

[catboi]

I found Scorpy to be a little iffy and I'm tired of noob AtE. However, Bella and others voting him what distinguishes Scorpy's ISO from Gray's? Regardless of how sarcasm is wasted on Gray.

Neither's good, but scorp's throwing weak suspicion on me, followed by him fumbling around like crazy with his vote on this page is far worse.

TBH I wouldn't be surprised if they were partnered

[catboi]

so now,its because I was suspicious of you? And because i made a posting error? What connects me to fox?

That second question is telling

[catboi]

@more experienced people: can I get an analysis of the claim?

It fits within the roles for a normal, though it is a bit strangely specific. Truthfully, I'm not sure it makes much difference to me - I'd expect scum to claim a PR in this situation more often than not and he still doesn't come across genuine in his posts (not a great explanation but it's hard to put it in words)

[catboi]

To be honest the claim doesn't make that much sense to me.

The weak modifier is a pretty weak variant of a cop. If there's a miller I'm actually expecting there to be a cop in the setup.

I don't really play mini normals, but wonder what would happen if a weak modifier targets a miller, if that would cause them to die.

It wouldn't make him die, the weak modifier says it makes the player die when they target scum, not players that appear as scum. I don't actually think my role contradicts his, could see a mod doing that to mess with people's expectations.

However, if that's why Scorpious thought my claim was fake, his actions suddenly start to make a lot more sense. I'll do a re-read tomorrow to put fresh eyes on it, and also d a reads list now that there's some content to work with.

P-edit: are you freaking kidding me? What the hell are you two doing?

[catboi]

We're 3 days away from the deadline and that vote from Mala coming out of the blue after previously calling me town is especially jarring, I can't understand what the motivation for that is. This is especially true after she's spent several posts throwing suspicion at Lalendra.

[catboi]

Yeah well I have way more experience than you SB9, not to be insulting or anything there.

I am really reluctant to lynch the 'weak doc' on d1. Because that is (kinda) super strong, but if it's true that's our protective AND our investigate role it one shot. The miller and the WD CC's each other sadly. So if one flips we can reevaluate the other.

If IF IF Susp does flip scum then I'm thinking mafia likely has daytalk & we have an experienced player coaching him because it pretty much looks like he called catboi out from the start. I mean Susp could be an evil mastermind scum player too, but I like to think all of the above.

hahahahaha there is no way this is not attempting to line up chain lynches on town

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

"welp lynched the miller, oh look guys the weak doc is alive time to lynch him next"

[catboi]

The thought crossed my mind, but I want to finish my list first rather than just kneejerk voting. List coming soon btw

[catboi]

Oh catboi you innocent soul you. If we have a weak modifier the chances of having a cop is less and the likelyhood of a miller even lesser.

How can you possibly state this with confidence, given you've stated you don't play mini normals that often?

(may have found something n my reread, btw)

[catboi]

out of curiosity, decided to search the completed mini normal games for games that included a miller, to see the town power role composition:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, nurse, tracker, watcher, hermit
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, watcher, jailkeeper, even night vig
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, cop
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - neigbor miller, neighbor doc, cop, 2-shot tracker
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, 2-shot vig, even night jailkeeper, cop
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, cop, two-shot vig, neighborizer
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller JOAT, odd night cop, bodyguard, 2x town neighbors
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, 2 shot VIG, JOAT, Bulletproof
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, cop, doctor, 1-shot BP, neighbor
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, odd-night vig, 2-shot watcher
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, cop, tracker, non-consecutive vig
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lit=miller - miller, cop, doctor

So a miller being in the setup makes it likely but not guaranteed that there's a cop role, but it definitely doesn't mean town can't have another investigative role. I don't see the claims as inherently contradicting whatsoever and I'm wary of those who use that logic

[catboi]

that search probably missed some games, I only searched games that put the roles in the OP but it's a sizable sample, regardless

[catboi]

well tbh i don't exactly like the fact we are risking lynching a pr that's a variant of a doc and a cop in one shot.

i mean feel free to strongarm my lynch D2 if he flips scum, but i'm sure as hell not going to support that lynch

That's understandable, but scum are usually going to claim a strong PR if they're getting lynched, you can't avoid voting someone just because of a claim. Just get bothered seeing these faulty arguments foisted on me

(still doing reads btw, done with 6/12 but I still need to get through some of the more active posters)

[catboi]

Mala, I know you don't have much reason to trust me, but sheep me on this...I'll explain tomorrow if I'm alive.

are you 100% sure scorpious is scum?

[catboi]

Really was kind of bummed out by not being able to get a strong town read on a re-read, I was expecting more to jump out at me but a lot of people are frutratingly null or haven't said as much as I thought.

Reads are listed in order from most town to most scum:

Town

superbowl9

- I don't know, someone sticking a box in his post #135 where he asks everyone "Why" just feels strangely genuine, like he's asking for answers and not just to appear engaged. Also like that he's asking more experienced players if something he observed is a tell or not, strikes me as a very genuine gesture where he's looking for advice on his reads, would be a surprising sentiment to fake there as scum. Response to elusive in #167 also reads as a very honest, particularly the sentiment of "If you see people who I should be pushing, great, tell me" - reads as someone who really wants to find scum in this case.

Bellaphant

- null/town, I hate to say I like something as vague as the overall tone of her posts, but that's what strikes me, her case on scorp in #190 was solid, #117 seemed to be some solid questioning, but she's tailed off lately.

Maxous

- null/town, like that he seems to be actively scumhunting and posting reads, some of his reads are hard to understand though, in fact he names 3 people as town or townish who are all in my scum reads. Did like that he tried to dig up meta on grib.

Null

Malakittens

- The idea that my role and scorp's contradicted each other bothered me, but I actually felt better after our exchange as I think her thought process behind it is very genuine and she's not trying to just set up lynches. Still don't like the fact that she sat on her RVS vote before voting me though, and she ultimately doesn't have a lot of substance to her posts - she's named reads but not really explained most of them, would like to see a bit more elaboration. Do actually find the Lalendra read to be a decent one, so there's that. also, would like to know what become of this:

I have to look at something with Maxous and I'll get back to you on that.

Atum

- needs to post more. not sure how he's only at one prod thus far. Very little actual content to go by.

Grib/shaddowez

- null/scum - still don't like that grib essentially never followed up a reads list that was extremely forced coming on page 2, everything he posted after was more or less filler. As for shaddowez, a lot of their reads have just been saying someone looks good or bad without saying why, and they accuse superbowl of repeating someone else's argument, but a lot of their case on scorp is sutff that other people have posted in the topic. Still, they seem to be making something of a legitimate effort and my read on the slot isn't as harsh as it was initially. The point on gray is a nice catch, actually - gray's really said nothing of value recently and doesn't appear to have a followup to his unvote.

Banakai

- null/scum. Also very light on content, seems mostly to comment on the main subjects of discussion, #115 is very wishy-washy, says my claim's suspicious but comes up with reasons I'm likely to be real, all while sheeping my vote on Grib, then in his very next post goes to vote scorpious over me. Still can see some hint of a legitimate effort in his posts, might get easier to read with a little more content.

Grayfoxxxx

- null/scum - Don't like the fact he promised reads in #170 then never delivered. He complained about not having much to go on early on, but hasn't really developed opinions since then, his one real move was to sheep the vote on scorp but now doesn't want to vote either of us, but hasn't presented an alternative.

Radja

- null/scum. essentially very little signs of scumhunting. As far as I can tell, hasn't voiced a stronger suspicion than voting banakai early on for speculating about the existence of a cop role. Throws weak suspicion at scorpious in #111 and #200, then at malakittens in #202, but never makes an outright accusation. A post like #130 isn't bothersome in and of itself, but it's all basically safe, neutral statements that appear active but don't really advance anything. Somehow strikes me as worse than other low content posters because he seems to be trying to

appear

active, while saying very little, and I don't get a real sense of purpose to the posts.

Scum

Lalendra

- Spends a lot of time talking about my claim, calls it suspicious in #81, seems to express doubt over the strategy of claiming right away in #106/#107, but in #120 says she tends to believe my claim, after general sentiment seems to be going toward not lynching me. Then, posts after that - #224 asks a question of superbowl9, no real followup, dismissive of another read, talking about my claim again. #227 is just weak suspicion of scorp, reluctance to vote due to the role, but then votes him anyway in #286 on a day-old post she'd already read/quoted past. What made the post suddenly notable then?

#233 and #234 are both extremely defensive in the face of some very, very slight pressure, which also looks like an "why me" sort of response. Don't like at all that her response to being attacked for lack of content is to claim there's nothing else to say and everyone else is just as bad (to be fair i've a lot of null/scum reads, but that doesn't make it any more of a good way to respond)

elusive

- Wanted to say town when I went into my iso reads, but came away with a far worse impression than my initial one. Can understand why they'd be doubtful of my claim given lack of experience with the meta but the fact is I've never seen a miller that didn't claim day 1 and not doing so seems stupid to me. Vote in #116 came across as town annoyance, getting fed up with someone not contributing. However, a lot of their posts after that come off as looking to attack others, more than scumhunting - #150, #157, #159, #179, are examples of this, as well as #191 - they're short posts that really just kind of pick at people without going so far as to make a full blown case.

The lack of a read on Grib is troubling, especially given they seem to have some familiarity with him and seemingly attacked people for voting him (see #165) The implicit critique here is that they think this is just grib's meta, but they don't say it outright and the only plausible motivation I can see is not wanting to defend him outright.

Also very notable that in #150 elusive calls out a post by scorpious as "super scummy" but a single day later in #191 They say he's "a little iffy" but try to redirect attention away from scorpious and toward gray - they go from saying his actions are "super scummy" to soft defending him in a day's time, a dramatic shift in reads that I really don't see much of a rational explanation for. Strongly think this is scum.

Scorpious

- yeah, still. overall style of posting has been very much to cast soft suspicion on people rather than making strong accusations, justification of not trusting my miller claim seems incredibly poor - miller's not a remotely uncommon role, and the idea that it's a good role for scum to claim is idiotic, essentially prevents them from claiming anything stronger and runs a risk of a counter claim or being outed by an investigative role. The overall questioning doesn't seem to have a purpose or go anywhere, also frequently pressing other players for content while saying little himself. The fact that he unvoted me when I mentioned his vote hadn't moved from RVS, then immediately re-voted just doesn't make sense from any sort of town mindset.

Vote on shaddowez is terrible, too. His mentions of Grib go from asking two randos if they support the lynch on Grib (#110), then never following up on it, asking him if he has reads that don't reference meta (#139), says that about him, which is basically meaningless commentary, along with saying his reaction to my claim is suspect, while trying to push him on my claim (#203), and then says he'd lynch the slot because...his reads were based on meta (as if that's meaningful) (#272). And that's "wary of the slot from the beginning"? He'd only begun to express real suspicion of Grib 12 hours ago once it was clear to him I wasn't getting lynched. This just smacks of dishonesty.

Feel strongly on elu-scum but absolutely think Scorpious should be the vote today.

VOTE: Scorpious

i also really regret how much my claim seems to have monopolized discussion on a reread but i don't know how i'd have played it differently

also if any of this reads badly i'm sorry it's late and i spent hours typing this and i flip flopped a couple of times so i didn't spend much tiem editing anyway i need to sleep

[catboi]

Also for the record, the reread left me very confident that Scorp's claim is fake. Nothing to do with my role, just the manner in which he presented it

[catboi]

Get off shaddowez and back on Scorpious.

[catboi]

Grib replaced site wide so anyone trying to pin scum on that is atrocious.

catboi's reads are nonsense and utterly so. "Feel strongly on elu-scum but absolutely think Scorpious should be the vote today."

So, again not voting your strongest scum read? Why?

Because I'm very confident Scorp's claim is fake.

SO based on copious research (done to what aim? To establish fake claims? Tot justify miller claim? To?), it seems Scorpy's role is possible but still wants to vote Scorpy? Why?

the ressearch isn't why I'm voting him. Something else changed my mind while I was re-reading. You're reaching.

christ almighty, this post is unreadable. If you want to react to my reads, do it in a format that's actually organized.

I'm feeling really mixed on catboi: on the one hand, I understand some of his reads, but he is scum-reading most of the game. I'm also wondering about the busy work of finding the games - it'd be a reasonable scum!tell for me, but I might have to do a bit of a meta read :S

p-edit, elu, not all of his reads are bad, and you've been a bit harsh about the super one, but you have some fair comments. Some of your comments can also be fair without meaning he is scum Mainly, though, I agree with the amount of FOS without a vote.

pp-edit, need to look at deadline/vc. Don't think I'm getting what I want today.

I'm not going to list people as town just to balance my reads. That's a dumb play as town to distort your feelings in order to fit players into a preconceived box of what a list of reads "should" look like. I went by how I felt, and right now I feel wary of a large portion of the game and to be honest I'd be suspicious of anyone who says they aren't

[catboi]

It's something I read in the topic, obviously. Ultimately it's not

what

he claimed, but the

way

he claimed it, along with his posting since then. Not the easiest thing to explain right now but it's there if you look for it, just look at the last page. If it doesn't make sense to you after that there's not much I can do. Wondering if you're being willfully obtuse at this point.

gray suddenly looking an awful lot like an attempted scum counterwagon

[catboi]

I never said he reads town. All I'm saying is, given the timing and nature of the wagon on him, it looks like scum trying to push a mislynch on an unpopular/lurky player. This is especially true given as i'm virtually certain one of the other wagons is on scum.

And again, read the whole of the last page and tell me you don't see why I changed my mind.

[catboi]

I have to disagree with this. Just asking "Why?", especially in the block text mode he did it, seems like he's attempting to engage people without actually putting any effort into what he's doing. Also, has he actually followed up with any of those people? I don't recall that being the case.

ordinarily I'd agree with this, really, but he was just asking people to explain their opinions and the method of doing so was so...blunt, didn't look like an attempt to gain towncred to me. Who expects to get townread by asking "why?" over and over?

Have issues with some of your other reads, but elusive's post in 318 covers a lot of them. None of them make me scum read you just yet, but there are enough gotchas in there to keep an eye open.

If you have an issue, bring it up, this sort of sentiment is useless to me and really just kind of annoying.



That said,

I know what I'm attempting to say - I can't say that I know what you're reading from it though. It's likely it's the same thing, yes. I know that if people sheep me on a Scorp lynch and he's town, and I make it through the night, I'm getting speed lynched tomorrow.

please for the love of god just lynch scorpious people

[catboi]

And again, read the whole of the last page and tell me you don't see why I changed my mind.

I don't, can you tell me why?

Look at the bolded section of my last post. I can't make this any more obvious.

[catboi]

god damn it why does everyone have to make this so haaaaaard

shaddowez is fairly obviously softclaiming a counter to scorp's claim, I noticed that on post 300, it's why I took them out of my scumreads. Truthfully, I don't even lean null-scum on them, but I wanted to not step on their toes and out them, so I felt it was better to just make a slight adjustment. It seems people are incapable of taking a hint though, so I'm just going to out and out say it.

I'm outing this because I feel like just lynching between the two at this point is the better option as there's guaranteed scum there, granted it's possible to lynch outside them, but then, you can lynch outside day 2 after a flip and have more information to go on. Also an outside possibility they both stay alive and scum just force us to choose between the two eventually


Goes without saying that I don't see shaddowez counter claiming a role like this, particlarly a protective role on a day 1 mislynch given the potential benefits for scum are fairly small and there was no guarantee they'd be lynched, anyway

[catboi]

Well you could have just said it'd be anti-town to say, which it was. Where I'm from, we call it [REDACTED]. But whatever. Moving on. Quote me the soft?

I was getting tired of dancing around trying to get people to take the hint. If the deadline weren't in less than a day, I'd likely have held my tongue.

The claim also looks incredibly easy to hide behind. It's a limited shot, so any night he doesn't die he can claim either that he got town, or that he just hasn't used it yet. Claiming he hasn't used both of his shots will also sway the town against voting for him. Also, more reasons to be discussed at a later point in time.

Mala, I know you don't have much reason to trust me, but sheep me on this...I'll explain tomorrow if I'm alive.

Mala, I know you don't have much reason to trust me, but sheep me on this...I'll explain tomorrow if I'm alive.

are you 100% sure scorpious is scum?

Am I 100% sure? No. I'm not a daycop, so have no way to be 100% sure. I do have a

verrrrrrrrry

strong suspicion, however.

I know what I'm attempting to say - I can't say that I know what you're reading from it though. It's likely it's the same thing, yes. I know that if people sheep me on a Scorp lynch and he's town, and I make it through the night, I'm getting speed lynched tomorrow.

[catboi]

VOTE: Malakittens
No
This is why I wanted to run you up Mala.

VOTE: elusive

Yeah, on board with this. Some examples of awful interactions:

Grey and scorpy persons of interest and lalendra. Also I never thought nj could make a dream about zombies worse but zombie necrophilia yep much worse of it was made.

"persons of interst" is about as much of a vague nondescriptor as you can come up with. What makes someone interesting, and why? What does being a person of interest even mean?

I found Scorpy to be a little iffy and I'm tired of noob AtE. However, Bella and others voting him what distinguishes Scorpy's ISO from Gray's? Regardless of how sarcasm is wasted on Gray.

Attempting to deflect attention toward gray away from Scorp.

I'd love for the people who analyzed the miller claim as being town side to comment on Scorpy's claim.

Calling on others to give opinions, notably avoids giving a take of their own with regard to Scorp's claim.

Yeah but one claimed wo any good reason. No pressure, so idk. I have to think, I panicked at thinking deadline was close but we're okay for two days.

Scorpy's role needs to be looked at but can also be checked.

This is a distinct hedge - they avoid directly attacking the claim but still argue he should be left alive, it avoids taking a definitive stance.

Scorpy, Grib seemed to replace across games. So, I wouldn't pull that, k? How can a person be so scummy? Idk. How? I guess anything is possible.

Scorpy, paraphrase your claim again for me thanks.

Actually have no idea why they ask him to paraphrase his claim, comes off as the softest interrogation possible and I don't see a purpose to doing so. If they were asking questions to clarify/possibly see if he contradicts himself I'd get it, but this just feels useless. Like an attempt to...I don't know, force some kind of interaction where there really hasn't been much.

So from ISOing Scorpy in that game on day one he is : defensive, prickly but also logical and good at picking out inconsistencies and mis-logic. In this game he's still defensive, prickly but not as aggressive in pointing at scum. Is that scummy? It could be but it could also be that he's a PR and some people (like Mala for example) play PRs by being less aggressive and more lurkery in the hope they won't get NKed. Obviously, it leads to them hitting some town's scum radars and hard to tell if its scum just lurking or a town PR being nervous.

Scorpy isn't a noob from his other game but he doesn't know the MS lingo, so sorry about that. AtE means Appeal to Emotions. A tactic that scum or town might use and which in particular grates on my nerves.

Oh Scorpy, I like your town attitude. Very lovely, teaching those passive aggressive fruit loops to shove it.

This is where I'm at:
VOTE: GrayFoxxxxx

and again finally, a MASSIVE hedge of a statement that boils down to "scorpious could be scum but he also could be a PR because he's lurky so let's just lynch someone else." It's a thorough non-analysis that uses plenty of words to say nothing at all really, trying to deflect attention from Scorp without outright defending him. The push on to gray is bad, too - really their case on him had amounted to "his ISO is bad" due mainly to low content posting but it's never really justified beyond that. Just a weak push that involves calling attention to things and hoping others see it as scummy rather than assembling any real points as to why there's actually anything wrong with gray's posting. With benefit of hindsight it very much looks like going after low hanging fruit.

VOTE: elusive

[catboi]

mafia edit: ughhhh I broke the tags there, meant to post the "no" after, like this:

VOTE: Malakittens

This is why I wanted to run you up Mala.

No

---

I am not on board with running up mala, please do not be misled

[catboi]

I'm town. I think you're purposefully ignoring my content. I also find it convenient that no fucktard has thought it might be important to look at Scorpius's interaction. Nor has any actually town doofus seen my scum games on this site and realized that if Scorpy was my scum partner I would bus the daylights out of him.

So yeah. Bored by playstyles of the less than worthy. Among other unsavory things I could say but won't because apparently.

Having a hard time seeing this as genuine whatsoever, if you've actually got a defense to offer then post it rather than being dismissive of everyone.

Point about scorp interactions is actually one I wanted to look at, but had forgotten at the time as I was too tired to do so.

lalendra, selectively quoting my iso is remarkable

Didn't selectively quote at all, that's virtually every reference you make to scorp, with context included. You want to claim I left something out, go ahead and post it for me because I guarantee there's nothing there

[catboi]

And that was a quick read - Scorp basically never gives any commentary on elusive whatsoever, only interactions are some minor, useless questioning. Vote stays locked. elusive calling back on scorp's interactions seems especially ridiculous now given that. Also noteworthy was Scorp's 368 which is a fairly lengthy attack on mala, thinking that reads far more like a legit attack on her rather than a bus, contrasts strongly with him basically ignoring elu, typical mistake of inexperienced scum is to basically ignore their partners

[catboi]

Yeah, definitely convnced you're scum just trying to scare people at this point, to dismiss everything said against you as invalid is just jamming your fingers in your ears going "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" when in reality you can't come up with a coherent response (something of a theme in your play, I'm beginning to notice).

[catboi]

Hate quote-striping, but I think I need to here

I've asked both you and your buddy Superbowl several things and you've ignored that. So, its you who is ignoring the obvious.

You've asked me zero questions on the last two pages and keep avoiding making any response to the accusations, and again it only seems like you're trying to dismiss my arguments rather than respond to them, which doesn't look like town behavior at all.

And #425 is a lie, catboi you left out my interactions with Scorpy over him FOSIng Grib along with the ones I posted above. Shoddy.

You're right on this, I admit. Wasn't my intention to ignore it, it's just honestly so forgettable an interaction it barely registered. You argue with him over it, sure, but it's soft. You call him out (303) but you don't actually push on it and just say his reasoning's atrocious (314). Scorp in response to you says not very much in 313 and 315. Then ultimately again your "read" of him in 334 is wishy-washy nonsense. If that's supposed to prove that you're not partners, I'm not buying it. At all.

Trying to blame me for your lack of research, logical skills and ability to go through Scorpius's interactions and look at them carefully or even do wagon analysis is not my problem.

And reading this, I'm struck by another big problem. You're attacking people for not doing research, but you've done nothing whatsoever yourself. Why not do that yourself if you actually have anything? Bu instead you're just insulting people and claiming they have nothing on you. It makes absolutely no sense for a town player to call people out to do something they're not even attempting themselves.

Here is Scorpius in ISO:
viewtopic.php?p=7136416&user_select[]=26244#p7136416

Posts that might make sense for people who give a fuck to look at:

#154, #203, #313, #314
FOSes: Grib (obvious town), catboi for the miller claim (idk what catboi is but i don't like it outside of alignment), Lalendra (RVs), Bella 2x,
Asks Grib why he has a townread on me, that's soft fosing as well,

Well, Grib's slot is dead so this is useless. Actually, what does any of this mean? Is the assumption that these people are likely partners because scorp fosed them, or town? This is straight up information over analysis.

The question about why I ask people claiming to claim again? Umm...obviously because sometimes scum will slip and claim something and then slip and change it up. For example, look at the finished game Diamond is Unbreakable and how Sala fucks up his fake claim.

So yeah reaching and stupidity.

See I understood that was a likely explanation, but just straight up asking someone to paraphrase is essentially useless as no one's likely to be tripped up that way. Looks more like a fabricated interaction than anything, if you were really testing for inconsisties I'd expect a little more thorough questioning.

If I were scum, why would I hard defend Grib? Why would I go against a scum buddy and defend Grib? Seriously. No.

You can't be serious. Why would you argue with your partner's reads? To create distance, or because you'd decided it was convenient to townread him? Are you trying to tell me scum partners never argue with each other about reads? There's essentially zero risk involved in doing so. I don't see how this is supposed to make you town at all and tonally it comes off as increasingly desperate in spite of your insistence that you don't care

[catboi]

You're wrong.

How's that for defense?

Also, the burden of proof lies on you and the people on my wagon. Look at the shit wagon, its full of players who are using others for their reads. Where are the cases? There aren't any. Rank.

Also I despise people who ask for defense but then change the goal post. I explained some things you said I'm lying. Now when I flip town and then post game I'm going to feel justified writing, "This player's playstyle is worthless. See this game as evidence." Got it?

Mala's push sucks and seriously sucks.

Also, what research have you done? Have you looked at my scum or town meta and determined for example that as town I am always prickly as a pear about shitty stuff against me? Have you?

Or that my scum game is a lot better than my town game in general?

No, you haven't done research and are pointless. Lynch me so I can get away from this mentality of every single person on my wagon who I {} can't say it but you can imagine it, I'm sure.

Yeah, no, you're just avoiding giving any sort of straight up answer with this crap.

"The burden of proof lies on you" in particular feels like a tactic I've seen from scum plenty of times. It's to just press people and go "case? case?" because if you're dismissive of people's reasoning for voting you, eventually some people are going to believe that there really isn't a case. I feel like I've explained myself several times but you avoid saying anything of substance.

And to talk of moving the goalposts, you point back at your interactions with scorp, don't actually cite anything and when I say there's nothing there, you tell me to go research your meta. If how you're playing now is different from your scum meta

then show me

. That should

not

be that hard.

What about mala's push on you sucked? Do you think she's scum?

plus theres two people ont he wagon i dont like

Might as well name them.

[catboi]

I don't think voting without a reason is a scumtell from a player who isn't a noob. Honestly I can see having misgivings about those posts but when she's actually explained herself I've liked her reasoning just fine.

[catboi]

So I just checked Banakai and despite not posting in nearly a week he's been very active elsewhere

Completely down to lynch him now

[catboi]

Could see why people would read that as scum-motivated (I mean I felt that way when it happened), but I just don't feel like that's the case here. Not sure why the attention's focus on those posts, and not her followup. *shrugs*

*yawns*

Still haven't changed my mind, not sure what's causing the game to stagnate.

[catboi]

Prodge

Also, finally read through catboi's case for scum!elusive, and pretty much disagree with most/all of his conclusions. Reads more like someone looking for things to call scummy moreso than looking for someone who is scum.

Mala's still scum and all, but I guess I can wait on that, since I'm way too lazy to build an actual case there. Radj and super, I'll maybe try and post actual reasoning later today? But probably not.

Maxous, do you think voting a mislynch D1 is a scumtell?

This is garbage, speak up or screw off

[catboi]

Please vig that

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

nvm

[catboi]

I need to reread and update my reads list, constantine replaced a bad slot and did themselves absolutely no favors

[catboi]

Hermits entrance into this makes me a little worried about him.
VOTE: Hermit
The no hammer, just doesn't seem like him.

Can you please explain this?

[catboi]

I rolled scum this game, so I am hoping that can be some positive utility to town.
Unfortunately I do not know who my scumbuddy is, so we are going to have to do actual scum hunting.

Firebringer has the right idea. When I am not blatantly anti-town, I am scum.

I really hate this
Maybe a gr8 b8 by jester, but I don't put it past him to actually be scum.
He's in elu's slot right? I'm thinking maybe jester then, because of how elu was asking to be lynched as well, or maybe it's a gambit, idk I have no experience with this

Jesters aren't allowed in normal games

@mala, you aren't voting and I'm finding it hard to get a full read on you. Any comments/questions my way?

I wanna vote max, but i don't know really how to explain my gut. :\

VOTE: max

elus reaction felt town hence why i unvoted ;-;

You know this vote is useless, right?

[catboi]

I don't like the idea of abandoning a wagon because it's "not going anywhere" when basically no one is posting and the argument against has amounted to *fart noise*. That said I think ideally both replacements should be given a chance to redeem their slots, though neither's done a very good job of it so far. I still need to update my reads, anyway, so I'm in no rush

[catboi]

Hermit plays it hardcore anti town feel to him, his not wanting to lynch without an explanation just rubs me the wrong way.

I mean could he have at least said "X is not scum" or in my case elu.

Still don't really understand this at all. You want to lynch him for not voting you?

VOTE: SCTH

Funny thing is, I read this vote and was like "who is this on?" then looked at player list to see whose name matched and was like ohhh....I am stupid.

Is there anyone you guys want me to take a look at more in depth?
catboi said not very happy with me and hermits entrance but kind of doesn't help give me any direction to go with. What the hell do you expect? A page or two of posts giving you detailed analysis of everything that has gone on?
Not my style.

Could you explain your reads in 500?

[catboi]

I don't see how someone is supposed to defend themselves from a non-existant case

[catboi]

Getting my reads together but it's going to take time to fill tihngs out and detail them and it's getting too late tonight.

[catboi]

Also a mafia traitor is allowed in notmal, but I really don't think scum would scum claim like that

So why are you voting him, then?



Got sick suddenly, going to try to do a full post but if I fall asleep it'll have to wait until the morning

[catboi]

list, schmist:

town

malakittens - fairly sure of this, showsgenuine effort/attention, vote on maxous was useless but I think it came from a town place where she has a feeling of legitimate suspicion but doesn't know how to express it. Unlikely she'd fake that sort of feeling as scum, I think.

maxous - not sure why people are scumreading him. Terse posts, but he has takes on people, it's not all fluff. Pushed pretty strongly on the scorp wagon. Point on 392 was solid and Atum clearly ignored it, wish he'd followed up.

superbowl9 - posts have tailed off somewhat lately but I liked cautioning against a surprise hammer in 481, though I'd have liked it better if there was an actual unvote there. Wish he'd explain why he trusts mala in 423, is somewhat of an odd reason to be sheeping a wagon and he never really establishes why he townreads her before that. Still liked the way he started the game so I'm leaving him as town right now, will have to re-evauate after some time has passed.

null

Lalendra - Really disagree with her case on mala in 463 but I can at least follow the reasoning. In a vacuum what mala did might be suspicious but most people are reluctant to lynch a claimed PR so to me it's not really a tell. Still there's at least a sense of her looking for something to latch on to, not going with the flow. Not sure why I found her all that suspicious on day 1. Still need to see more before I'd be comfortable declaring her town.

bellaphant - ultra lurky, frankly not a lot to go by here. Not a lot of analysis, mostly talks about popular targets. Would like to know why she went from town-reading elu in 323 to voting her in 454. Don't really like how she's averse to drawing conclusions from analyzing interactions in 420, posts 468 and 482 waffles a lot on the lynch on elu without really stating whether she still thinks they're scum or not. Not a lot of strong conclusions here. Would like to see her post some reads, take some hard stances.

radja - Very little substance in most of his posts lately however I did find 486 to be a solid point. The lack of tangible reads beyond that bothers me quite a bit. Not sure why he'd find elusive town at all.

scum

atum - null/scum. worthless, excessevlely lurky, a lot of sniping in his posts like in 487. Don't like that sort of thing because he's just taking potshots without really explaining. Of course never follows up. His vote on malakittens stinks, there's seemingly little to no concern with doing anything productive. So far as I can tell, is voting malakittens because she said gray was a vig kill? Terrible vote (it obviously was a vig) and he's done basically nothing with it. Does make me pause that he was the first to call out Scorp in 127, though the way he did it was awkward. Real lack of any stances/action here, similar to bellaphant but worse essentially.

firebringer - not making a whole lot of sense to me, wish he'd explain his reads, still don't like the way elusive posted at all, interactions with scorp were troubling, the combination of 151 and 190 that I pointred out day 1 is especially troubling in light of how scorp flipped.

st constantine - predecessor was worthless, the fact that he flaked from this game while continuing to post in tohers is an incredibly strong scumtell, replacement seems to have completely disappeared as well after making a series of worthless posts (scum claim to me is totally neutral, was clearly a joke and could be made by either alignment). Ideally we'd lynch fire and vig this slot, but a vote isn't that much worse.

not really happy with these but it's the best I've been able to manage, going to try to do better n2.

[catboi]

Also, might as well say: intent to hammer st. constantine

[catboi]

@catboi, please explain that mala town-read, bc here's a stance for you: I disagree

Sure. Post I was referring to was 510, although it was a useless vote, the feeling of being wary of someone but not having the words to explain it is a relatable one, and not something I think she'd fake as scum - she'd be more likely to put down a vote with purpose. Even though I disagreed with her re: my claim vs. scorp's on day 1, the line of reasoning where she felt the two roles wouldn't be in the same setup seemed genuine to me. Also, the way scorpious pushed on her in 368 strikes me as unlikely to be a bus.

[catboi]

superbowl's very likely town because I don't see scum diverting from someone who'd be a mislynch to bussing a buddy. Still think Mala's town, also.

It's probably this

VOTE: Bellaphant

[catboi]

Also, why the hell was Atum of all people shot

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

Don't really like firebringer's posts on the last page or how he followed my vote. Not sure why I was off him to begin with

So yeah I was townreading max and mala anyways so I do agree that scum is within bella/lalendra/bringer.

Mkay guys lalendra is town so don't lynch her

What changed between these two posts?

[catboi]

And then I check, and see bella's ducking the hell out of this thread, and I want to string her up all over again because there's no reason to be avoiding this so much with 2 scum dead

VOTE: Bellaphant

I'm going to check tomorrow and see if there's anything more concrete

[catboi]

I actually completely believe Bellaphant about not getting a PM given the moderation issues, but a re-read of her iso doesn't really affect my feelings...push on scorp overall felt soft, everything from day 2 on feels like she's background noise, 420 is IIoA, and she's generally just been a follower on major wagons for most of the game.

[catboi]

I want super to answer my question, but beyond that I don't have anything new to input

[catboi]

I agree we need more activity
more votes on firebringer pls

Hey. Answer me: why did your read on lalendra change from 593 to 614?

[catboi]

Hi,

There's no real defense for my play this game - it's been shitty, and my reads are hella weak rn. However, I've not done anything scummy, and there isn't really a case to defend against - I feel like i'm a compromise lynch and maybe town will get enough information from it to nail the last scum. I would ask, tho, if anyone had any questions etc to direct them at me, bc 1-2-1 interaction generally works best for me.

who do you think is scum

[catboi]

I mean it's probably one or the other at this point

[catboi]

Because everyone else seems unlikely at best

[catboi]

Just Do It

[catboi]

you've got to be kidding me

[catboi]

VOTE: No Lynch

[catboi]

:shrug:
wanna just call this a draw?
i completely messed up anyway

What is this

are you freaking kidding me

[catboi]

We literally mislynched

once

and that's it, game over?

what an idiotic game

I don't even get to whine to the mod because they're banned

what an unbelievable waste of time

[catboi]

I don't know what you're getting out of this act

[catboi]

VOTE: firebringer

whatever

he doesn't deserve it

i really wish i hadn't backed off on that read

[catboi]

legitimately thought the kills were coming from a vig before today

*shrugs*

this whole game is better off forgotten by all involved, I think

[catboi]

I might have but it's a moot point anyway

town seriously lost after ONE mislynch (and one missed vig shot). What a broken setup. And the mod having one of the strangest meltdowns of all time really tops it off.

[catboi]

I mean truth be told at first I wasn't sure he was doing some wacky gambit or not

[catboi]

the setup was so bad already and an odd-night SK seemed weird, from my pov it was broken either way

and lol mala was pretty clearly an innocent scan idk why you'd kill her looking for scum

[catboi]

I laugh at normal games at this point. They aren't as balanced as they claim to try to be.

I don't think this game should be considered representative at all for obvious reasons


I also can't believe I wasted a miller claim on this stupid thing

the mafia PT is mostly me ranting to myself, if someone really wants to see it I'll send a PM but otherwise it should be buried along with the rest of the rest of this game

[catboi]

I think it wasn't a bad choice, considering that scorp may have not gotten lynched had you not done it. I kinda did the same thing by softing cop. Also im sad my buddy catboi turned out scum :'(

Sometimes you have to be careful about who you think is your friend, Byakuya

tbh well i'm kinda glad that I called /most/ of the scum. Hey elusive about that shitty radar, eh?

Idk, looking at it in ISO we're kind of all over the place, plus you read me as scum.

I'm over mafia. The quest to figure out lies\truth through words and psychological means like some A level Sherlock fangirl on fluff isn't fun. At least through this game.

This was a bad game, for a lot of reasons. I don't know that I'd take it as representative. A lot of the frustrations here aren't things that happen every game. Take a break and see how you feel about things in a few months.