Micro 508: MafiaMafiaNotMafia (Bins' Soup Sucks)

[chamber]

I don't think we are even allowed to no lynch today.

I don't agree with hunting outside our groups. Getting three informed lynches through is going to be difficult enough without everyone cluttering it up.

Why did you phrase it 'anyway, as I was saying'?

[chamber]

Vote parama

[chamber]

Accusations of me "slipping" are unfounded and unsubstantiated.
I don't like chamber's naked vote that much but I guess it doesn't matter at this stage of the game.
Parama is being way too aggressive to be scum I think? I don't know his playstyle
Edos is settling too much and that makes me worry.

What's he actually being aggressive about? Bad theory. It's not like hes attacking players or ruthlessly sticking to some conviction he built in this game.

[chamber]

Accusations of me "slipping" are unfounded and unsubstantiated.
I don't like chamber's naked vote that much but I guess it doesn't matter at this stage of the game.
Parama is being way too aggressive to be scum I think? I don't know his playstyle
Edos is settling too much and that makes me worry.

I'm glad to see that chamber hasn't explained his vote on Parama yet. I'll give him time. His last post was less than 10 minutes ago, after all.

I wouldn't hold your breath.

[chamber]

Interesting, first time that 'bug' has happened to me. Only meant to quote the edo post.

[chamber]

i am reading the zoraster game linked from the queue thread and w o w
1. one scum brings up NL on page 2
2. other scum suggests groups stick to themselves d1

both of these are absolutely awful ideas
and guess what scum still won that game

so yes let me reinforce
1. voting no lynch = scum claim
2. everyone needs to scumhunt outside of their group

what this leads me to is
chamber being opposed to scumhunting outside of groups in his first post looks even worse now

anyways i'm gonna keep reading this game and see if i can pull anymore good setup strategy out of what they did wrong

Redcoyote is a pretty good player. I suspect he would have put forward the idea for the same reason I did, it's obviously the better way to play it. Lying about theoretical things is difficult because you need to actually be able to justify yourself concretely.

[chamber]

Because it doesn't matter. Today all that matters for me is figuring out which of you and pope is more likely to be scum. Effort used on other things is wasted. We'll have waaay more information from other sources by the time that I need to consider other groups. If someone sees something absolutely damning, sure they can say something, but the focus should absolutely be on everyone figuring out their own group.

[chamber]

okay for whatever reason the normal quote button is acting like multiquote and then since i write my posts in a completely different tab than the one i quote in it's adding all my quotes to the post after because they're still in the multiquote buffer, even though i'm not clicking the multiquote button to begin with? oy vey.

Yeah, regular quote still uses the multiquote buffer. It should be clearing when you actually load the page with the quote in it though, that would be the issue if it isn't.

[chamber]

Redcoyote is a pretty good player. I suspect he would have put forward the idea for the same reason I did, it's obviously the better way to play it. Lying about theoretical things is difficult because you need to actually be able to justify yourself concretely.

okay in hindsight holy hell is this disgusting
you go:
1. redcoyote is a good player (which has no relevance here)
2. he put forward the idea for the same reason i did (implying that you are also a good player)
3. "it's obvious" is a blatant lie, because i disagree, as did pretty much every townie in that game
4. if it WAS obvious there's no point in Red saying it in that game and you saying it in this game? surely it would go without saying, right?
5. on that note, what benefit does scum have of putting forth the "better way to play" if it doesn't benefit them in some way? that just suggests that it benefits scum more than it benefits town
6. in this specific post, your "justification" is "it's obvious", which i'm pretty sure is not justifying it concretely

and then your justification in the next post is that scumhunting outside of groups is "wasted effort", pretending that that is something that exists in a mafia game (it doesn't, really, because

it's a game

)

yeah no, you're hiding behind a "good player" curtain to try and defend a really bad way of playing this setup. i feel like you didn't see the other game when you argued against scumhunting between groups, saw it when i brought it up, and then had to retroactively defend your stance so you weren't obvious scum, but the defense is full of holes

UNVOTE:
VOTE: chamber

You said a lot of words in this post but most are worthless or nitpicky. You put forward the theory that me and red agreed on what to do because I'm scum. I'm putting forward the counter theory that we agreed on what to do because he's competent and I'm competent and we independently reached the same conclusion. His benefit for bringing it up would be the same benefit for you making all the theory noise you've been making, it's easy to talk about things you believe to be true when you are scum. Scum don't lie about everything, lying is dangerous, they lie when they need to. I feel time pressed to settle on 1 lynch choice in a 2 week period. I don't know how anyone could have enough time to be satisfied with 3. That's what I mean by wasted effort. If you have time to be looking at those other candidates you should be focusing it on the choice you can actually impact instead.

[chamber]

turn it around

I've been claiming this for most of my posts.

[chamber]

using this to imply that you are also competent.

It wasn't an implication. I am. It just didn't need to be said.

[chamber]

seriously, if you have all this time to sit here and argue with me over theory, wouldn;t that time be better spent looking at other players outside of your group? or even the ones in your group?

btw irish needs to be posting more.

You are in my group. This is certainly part of me getting a feel for you. I haven't been arguing the theory.

[chamber]

YOU made the big deal (and continue to make a big deal) about me not expounding on why I think I'm right, but the answer is right there, I don't think arguing the theory is important so I'm not arguing it.

[chamber]

Do you really think there's such an large amount of "effort" to out in to hunting in your own group that hunting outside of it encroaches on it?

This isn't entirely clear as a question because of some typos I think, but I'd go with yes, yes it is.

[chamber]

Are you serious right now? Outside of the first instance where I'm making my opinion known, you are the one that prompted those responses. I was being as brief as I could be.

[chamber]

but you and I know that's not true.

Is this you calling parama scum?

[chamber]

but you and I know that's not true.

Is this you calling parama scum?

or he could be calling himself scum too

i like how your sole contribution is to pop in with "oh hey the other guy who can vote parama might suspect parama now, i should push him on it"
no comments on literally anything else then?

I'll get back to this once pope actually elaborates, but I was being critical of him in that post. If you are town, you're the one suffering from confirmation bias.

[chamber]

@irish: what made you make the transition from not voting to voting.

@parama: One point you've pressed in your theory is a fear of derphammers because of the setup. You just pressured Irish to vote for me without any mention that it would be putting the game into 'l-1'. Why even pressure him to do so given your apparent fear?

[chamber]

You can unvote to take us off of l-1.

I did assume you were ok with it, not because you had posted since, but because your general activity level in this game made me assume you'd checked in with the thread since, given how fast you responded to me I'm not sure I was wrong to do so?

[chamber]

that's nice, so you have exactly one solid read and the rest are all maaaaaaybe accurate

How do you make that mistake when one of the reads is 'himself' and she put himself in the scum section?

[chamber]

that's nice, so you have exactly one solid read and the rest are all maaaaaaybe accurate

How do you make that mistake when one of the reads is 'himself' and she put himself in the scum section?

Not mafia isn't scumreading us; he wants us policy lynched for being good players. He was the backup moderator in my only scumgame so he saw it firsthand and nommed me for a scummy for it, but around the same time, he replaced into the tail end of the town game i was also nommed for, so it would make more sense to let me do my town thing and then get paranoid of me in LYLO if I make it that far. It's premature to be paranoid about me on day 1 especially when I'm overextended and having an off game.

He's also seen that my scum LYLO play still needs work, I was obvtown all game and then I opened in LYLO with an obvscum post, though I won anyway. But my town LYLO play is pretty good so I should even be readable by then.

--Plotinus

None of that is really relevant to the question I asked. You wouldn't put yourself there.

[chamber]

True, but he said it was 2am. i'm willing to give him some benefit of the doubt for that. i've learnt my own lessons about playing mafia after midnight in previous games.

I was replying to the part where you said it was the scum section. you're right, though, we would have left ourselves off the list entirely; I find it gauche when people include themselves on their readslists, especially when they claim to townread themselves, and I find it worrying if they claim to not townread themselves.

--Plotinus

Maybe it's just me, but I was willing to give him missing your 'his read list:' bit over it being 2am. Him missing the actual content of the list though suggests he just attacked it over the very first thing he found questionable, and I find surface play like that scummy as heck.

In the future I'd really appreciate it if you didn't comment on outstanding questions to people from me until the person in question has actually answered though. This now taints anything I can get from him.

[chamber]

i'm ignoring your question because not reading one post correctly isn't scummy, nitwit

It's not that you misread the post, it's that you didn't actually think about its content -at all-, but still attacked it.

[chamber]

chamber is trying oh so hard to nitpick every last thing i do because he hasn't presented any other valid reason for his vote yet. "oh man parama didn't complain about irish putting me at L-1, obv he's 100% okay with a L-1 state" and "oh man parama misread one single post, obv he's scum not reading the game carefully enough"
wow you're right i'm such obvscum

if this is your idea of being a competent player then you need to get off your friggin' high horse, dude.

I'm nitpicky in general. You are getting the blunt of it because you are saying more stupid shit than Irish (more in general too be fair) and I'm ignoring everyone else for the most part.

[chamber]

post 1: sure, i guess i did that, oh man. i did one bad thing. gosh. such scum wow.

If it's something you admit to doing why did you initially deflect by attacking my play style?

I wasn't really looking for an admission though, go through what you were thinking as you made the accusation/did the reading.

[chamber]

i could prolong your attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill, but i don't feel like entertaining scum.
if literally anyone else in the game expresses interest in your line of questioning then maybe i'll consider it tho.

At multiple points you've tried to make me out to be the unreasonable one. I'm trying to interact with you to get a better read on you. I'm not -that- confident that you are scum. You, on the other hand, are being unreasonable. Unless you are -certain- that I'm scum, and you shouldn't be, you should be trying to convince me that I'm wrong about you so that we have a shot of getting the lynch right instead of just bickering amongst ourselves while Irish coasts.

[chamber]

Internalizing reasons is something I do all of the time, I got my title for a reason, I'm not going to bother getting into the theory argument over why I think I'm right, because I've had it too many times, go look up old posts by me if you care.

[chamber]

Vote Irish

[chamber]

do not get in between irish and chamber right now, please. this is exactly why i'm not posting.

Requires irish to actually come in and react, might want to go on with whatever you'd otherwise be doing in his absence.

[chamber]

This game format is pretty aggravating. I thought the setup seemed fun before playing it.

[chamber]

I really just don't know what to do in this setup at this point. Sorry for the lack of activity over the last week. I'll make an effort to think of how to proceed.

[chamber]

Scum have day talk? Where does it say that?

[chamber]

My group is the last I would have guessed as the all town one so I really need to look at things again given that information.

[chamber]

Vote lucky

Have been distracted by rl, just caught up.

[chamber]

i'm not gonna hammer anytime soon anyways cause i don't know yet

na, go ahead and hammer the rainbow. I think we are done with this day...

I don't know what to make of this post yet but I'm sure it's important in retrospect.

[chamber]

He was getting lynched at that point. If the scum don't have daytalk he could have been signaling that he was ok with getting lynched.

[chamber]

This is a hell a group of 5...

Alright Edo. After looking at day 1 again I'm willing to bite we are the town group.

VOTE: chamber

This post is also odd. He suspected me yesterday, presumably he should be willing to vote for me for those reasons, but instead he uses the 'This is the town group' justification. I can't help but think it's because he'd rather justify a true town read rather than a fabricated scum one.

[chamber]

Somebody let me know if I did something wrong. If not, I'll move forward with this list.

Maybe I'm missing something but why in your logic can chambers poverty not include a scenario where you are scum?

If you weren't scum the other 3 would have all had opportunities in any combination to quicklynch me, given that that hasn't happened~.

[chamber]

I'm around if people have questions or what not. Will give the lucky/bins and lucky/hydra interactions another once over later.

[chamber]

"Another"
What did you draw from the first one?

It wasn't particularly conclusive or I wouldn't be offering to go over everything again. I talked about the things that stood out most in thread.