2016 US Presidential Election Thread

[Sudo_Nym]

If you are telling a kid that he has no chance at success in his life, no matter what his circumtances, then you are doing him a disservice. Sure, a homeless kid has less chance at success than a kid of a CEO of a fortune 500 company, but there are lots of rich kids that fail and lots of poor kids that succeed.

False equivalence. There are far more rich kids who succeed than poor ones who do, and pretending otherwise is ignoring the problem. Moreover, nobody was saying that you should tell your kids they can't succeed. We're telling them that they should be supportive, because more people will succeed if we all pull together than if we pretend that success is a matter of individual hard work.

I'm not going to tell my kids they can't be doctors or lawyers because I make $10 per hour.

And if your kids don't want to be doctors or lawyers? Maybe your son wants to be a short order chef. Maybe that's what makes him happy, but it's not going to make him rich. Are you going to lecture him about how being poor is his fault and he should work harder? And if your son can't be a short order chef if he wants, who will make our hash browns? Or is that career reserved for lazy people who deserve to be poor?

Moreover, two people that were childhood friends of mine were signifiantly less off than my parents were when we were growing up, but he ended up being a laywer and she is a medicial technician. I'm sure they make well over $100K while I am making less than $30K. I don't blame society for this, and I don't say it's luck. I have made some poor decisions at some points, and I have made a decision to put my family before my career. And I don't don't say that they don't deserve their success, because they worked hard to be where they are, I'm pretty sure it wasn't luck.

Anecdote is a not a synonym for data.

But it's wrong to look down on other people that have been successfull, or look down on other people that still believe in The American Dream, because you have had bad things happen to you. Sure, some people are lucky, but there are a lot of people that work hard for their success and deserve every penny of it.

And it's wrong to look down on people who haven't been successful, or to look down on people who realize that "The American Dream" is not something that's attainable by the entire population, just because bad thing have happened to them. Some people are lucky, but there are a lot of people that work hard for their success and will never receive a reward for it.

I'm not saying people don't work hard. If half of what his assistants have said about him is true, Bill Gates was one of the most ridiculously hardworking men in America. But he had a lot of advantages that other people didn't have, and that played a huge part in getting him to where he got. A man could be just as hard working and just as diligent as Bill Gates was, and still wind up dirt poor because the situation he was born into required him to spend his life making short term decision so his kids could eat that day rather than putting together a long term plan for future wealth. But we have the ability to give people opportunity, so that they can achieve success no matter their starting circumstances. And the GOP looks at that and says "Nah, fuck them. They're just mooching because they're lazy."

[sthar8]

Wow, lucky for them they have those government subsidized student loans available! I wonder what hard work they put in to deserve that handout?

[MonkeyMan576]

I never said there shouldn't be students loans or that they were handouts.

I'm saying that at some point spending needs to be cut down if revenue is less than what you are spending.

And some of those spending cuts probably won't be popular and might not be completely progressively minded.

[Varian-]

I used to bust my ass at minimum wage jobs. I now pull in significantly more while working significantly less hard. And hard work didn't get me here (although admittedly it helped), knowing the right people did. I can take credit for some of that, i.e. deliberate networking, but to say that luck didn't play into it at all would be a flat-out lie.

It's worth mentioning, also, that the nature of privilege is to be invisible until examined, and even then it sometimes creeps past us. You can't say how your life might have been different if you'd done everything the same as much as possible but born disabled, or of a different race, or some flavor of queer, or been an orphan, and so on. (Some of this has already been said by now, because I'm posting from my phone and type slow.)

[SleepyKrew]

I never said there shouldn't be students loans or that they were handouts.

I'm saying that at some point spending needs to be cut down if revenue is less than what you are spending.

And some of those spending cuts probably won't be popular and might not be completely progressively minded.

yay starving children

[MonkeyMan576]

There will be more starving children 100 years from now if we do nothing.

It's always easier to look for a short term solution rather than trying to fix the long term problem.

It doesn't make it the best thing or the right thing.

[shaft.ed]

we should really just eat them before they get too skinny

[Psyche]

but monkeyman
you have to spend money to make money
if we decide that spending needs to get cut down and then cut spending on programs that prevent harms to our average citizen by, say, starving them, denying them healthcare, and so forth
don't you see how that might actually increase the spending-revenue deficit?

[hiplop]

Sure

yes...thats why you should support helping out people who want a CHANCE to live the american dream. Some good, smart people get screwed by circumstance. if they had a little help, they could be doctors, lawyers, business executives etc, but one giant financial problem screws them forever.

I believe everyone should have a chance to pursue their dreams. A lot of people don't, is what you're missing. People working minimum wage jobs usually arent in a position that has much advancement, so your "you could get promoted if you're good" shtick is just plain wrong.

[MonkeyMan576]

I've never seen any evidence to suggest that success is really more about luck than hard work.

Everyone's situation is different, so there's no point in making generalizations like that.

The fact is if you want to succeed in your own life, and you're not born into wealth, you can either cry about how life is unfair or you can try to improve your situation. Some people may succeed, some people may not but I don't see how the existance of a class based society is evidence that the liberal economic view is the correct one. I am generally in favor of smaller government and more individual responsibility, but I have never said I want people to starve or that some government programs aren't necessary.

Surely some liberal economic programs have been successfull, such as the New Deal and Reconstruction, and I will be the first to admit conservatives are wrong on most social issues, but the amount of waste in government and the refusal to govern our own budget or adhere to any long term spending plan leads me to believe that the family model is a better financial system than defecit spending as a long term strategy. At some point, our country is going to pay for not living within our means.

[MonkeyMan576]

If you are telling a kid that he has no chance at success in his life, no matter what his circumtances, then you are doing him a disservice. Sure, a homeless kid has less chance at success than a kid of a CEO of a fortune 500 company, but there are lots of rich kids that fail and lots of poor kids that succeed.

False equivalence. There are far more rich kids who succeed than poor ones who do, and pretending otherwise is ignoring the problem. Moreover, nobody was saying that you should tell your kids they can't succeed. We're telling them that they should be supportive, because more people will succeed if we all pull together than if we pretend that success is a matter of individual hard work.

If you are saying that success is all luck and not based at all on hard work, then you are basically telling kids whose parents aren't rich that they can't succeed.

I'm not going to tell my kids they can't be doctors or lawyers because I make $10 per hour.

And if your kids don't want to be doctors or lawyers? Maybe your son wants to be a short order chef. Maybe that's what makes him happy, but it's not going to make him rich. Are you going to lecture him about how being poor is his fault and he should work harder? And if your son can't be a short order chef if he wants, who will make our hash browns? Or is that career reserved for lazy people who deserve to be poor?

Not at all, if they are happy flipping burgers than I am fine with that. But the point is that they should do what makes them happy, not feel like 99% of career paths are closed off to them because of the class they were born into.

But it's wrong to look down on other people that have been successfull, or look down on other people that still believe in The American Dream, because you have had bad things happen to you. Sure, some people are lucky, but there are a lot of people that work hard for their success and deserve every penny of it.

And it's wrong to look down on people who haven't been successful, or to look down on people who realize that "The American Dream" is not something that's attainable by the entire population, just because bad thing have happened to them. Some people are lucky, but there are a lot of people that work hard for their success and will never receive a reward for it.

I'm not saying people don't work hard. If half of what his assistants have said about him is true, Bill Gates was one of the most ridiculously hardworking men in America. But he had a lot of advantages that other people didn't have, and that played a huge part in getting him to where he got. A man could be just as hard working and just as diligent as Bill Gates was, and still wind up dirt poor because the situation he was born into required him to spend his life making short term decision so his kids could eat that day rather than putting together a long term plan for future wealth. But we have the ability to give people opportunity, so that they can achieve success no matter their starting circumstances. And the GOP looks at that and says "Nah, fuck them. They're just mooching because they're lazy."

No one said there is a sure fire model to be successfull, and surely luck plays some part in life. I think most people in the GOP just want a more responsible spending plan, not to fuck over poor people. Most people in the GOP believe that the rich shouldn't be punished for being rich. Most liberals believe in a more socialistic economic model, so it's just a different philosophy. Many european nations have very high tax rates, and apparently most people that live there are very happy with that, but I think many American's would prefer to be taxed less and enjoy fewer government benefits. This is because of our history as a colony and being oppressed by England, and being taxed without having government representation. So we value our economic independence. I don't think most American's would want a 50% tax rate, even if it meant the elimination of poverty.

[SleepyKrew]

What a coincidence, I was going to discuss how the taxes pre-Revolution were George Washington's fault in class tomorrow.

[sthar8]

Another example: some years ago there was an article about one of the major airlines looking for a few hundred new flight attendants. They received more than 22,000 applications. Can you seriously believe that out of 22,000 people there were only 3 or 4 hundred who were qualified to do that job? Would you tell the other 21,700 people that they just didn't try hard enough? Didn't want the job enough?

When I worked at the law firm we did summer internships with law school students every year so that the fresh lawyers could spend a couple months demonstrating their incompetence to the staff before we started having to be nice to them. We usually had about 200 applicants and they'd get selected based on grades and work ethic and what kind of law they wanted to practice. In 2008, one of the senior partners' sons came through the program and was awarded one of the two positions without a review process. Were the other students that year lazy or undeserving because of the accidental year of their graduation?

What if someone with the same fortunate combination of talents as Bill Gates had been born in Pakistan, or Yugoslavia or Sudan? Born to abusive parents? With a painful congenital disorder? A severe learning disability? Into an extreme religious cult? What if his parents had been in a horrible car crash and he dropped out of school to care for them instead?

No matter how much hard work you put in (and you should put in hard work), any success you enjoy is a result of luck. It's just math.

[sthar8]

So monkey, we should keep the government programs that allow poor people to borrow huge amounts of money they might never be able to pay back in order to go to college, but cut the programs that feed them until they're old enough to have a legal income?

I think you need less generalities and more specifics.

[sthar8]

No one said there is a sure fire model to be successfull, and surely luck plays some part in life.

So if someone tries your roadmap to the American Dream and fails, they should have worked harder? Or they're clearly trapped in negative thinking, and blaming other people for their problems? Or they just didn't deserve to succeed?

I'm confused.

[MonkeyMan576]

It's true that I am lucky to be born into a nation with one of the largest and most reliable economies in the world. If I was born in Africa or South America I probably wouldn't have the same opportunities. And surely if you are starving kid in Africa you don't have much chance of becoming a billionaire. But life is about making the most of your opportunities, doing work that you love(if you have the chance to do that), and valuing the blessings you have like your family, friends and health.

My youngest son died when he was 3 days old and he'll never get to experience any of that, so I understand that better than anyone.

I want the poor to be taken care of, from my perspective the government's history of poor money management makes them the last person I would want to do that.

[MonkeyMan576]

So monkey, we should keep the government programs that allow poor people to borrow huge amounts of money they might never be able to pay back in order to go to college, but cut the programs that feed them until they're old enough to have a legal income?

I think you need less generalities and more specifics.

I'm not an economist. All I know is we need to spend less.

[sthar8]

So who does it? Who is this mythical being who is going to solve poverty without government involvement?

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, it hasn't been solved in 250 years as an official nation. Do you think deficit spending has made things worse or better? Do you think if we have a $100T deficit in 50 years things will be worse or better?

[SleepyKrew]

If we use taxes to pay for social services then said services won't contribute to a national debt/deficit.

[MonkeyMan576]

That doesn't make any sense.

If social services cost more money than the taxes that are paying for them than it is contributing to the debt.

[SleepyKrew]

(raise taxes)

[MonkeyMan576]

That's just it though, people don't want high taxes.

[SleepyKrew]

People are dumb.
anyway back to starving children

[hiplop]

I just don't see how someone with a family would be against other families living happily? Would you want your family to starve b/c you got laid off?

What are you thoughts on being laid off? It's not due to incompetence, its literally a lack of work based on the performance of higher-ups.