Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[pieguyn]

RC, no response to 2956?

[fferyllt]

How long ago was this?

2013

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=27745

specifically this post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4974110, the touche in response to Mac.

[Wickedestjr]

the thing is, after we blew up at each other and he read me as town he immediately doubled down on the Nacho read. that's a town thought process and I highly doubt it was faked.

I don't see how you're concluding it's a town thought process rather than a bus.

he was the first vote on the Nacho wagon with the reasoning that he was "sheeping you". the thing with this is, you weren't even voting Nacho at that point - and when you did, it wasn't a "to lynch" vote, it was a reaction vote. so if he bussed there, he did it entirely unnecessarily.

First of all, he wasn't the first vote on the Nacho wagon. Secondly, this point is weak - not all busses have to be strong/independent/"to lynch" votes. Third, he joined the bandwagon by "sheeping ffery" which gives him the option to leave the bandwagon if he wants to- why are you ignoring that aspect of

his

vote?

[Wickedestjr]

the entire point is that, despite reading both Nacho and Oversoul as scum, you left the door wide open as to which, specifically, you thought was more likely to be scum. this allows you to vote whichever one looks like it's more likely to go through, or move your vote around for strategic reasons (ex: looking like you're open to a Nacho lynch but then voting Oversoul at the end - which is what I think you did here), and so forth. and I think that in this case, there is scum motivation here in that it allowed you to look like you were open to a Nacho lynch, but not actually doing anything to lynch him, which is fairly typical of scum distancing from each other.

This is

soooo

ridiculously untrue/false. Regardless of your alignment, I'm starting to get frustrated with you (and the people that don't see how you're so wrong).

1. I did not leave the door open as to which player I thought was more likely to be scum. I was voting Nacho for almost the entire day, only switched to Oversoul temporarily because he was ignoring my question and refusing to claim (and I switched it back to Nacho as soon as Oversoul did these things). I clearly stated/implied on a few occasions yesterday that Nacho was my top suspect.

How in the world

are you missing that?

2. If I really wanted the ability to switch my vote from Nacho to Oversoul, then listing Nacho as my top suspect wouldn't prevent me from doing that.

3. Doing nothing to lynch him?!? Are you friggin kidding me? I did more than most/all of the other players that voted for him. I started the wagon on him on days 2 and 3, gave actual reasons for doing so beyond gut/POE, and I argued with him throughout the last day. That's more than most/all of this town can say.

but no, I don't see anything in your posts D3 that indicates that you explicitly would have preferred a Nacho lynch over an Oversoul lynch (which is what I said in my first point).

you maintained both of them as scum reads. you voted Nacho right at the start of D3, then voted Oversoul because of claimgate and for supposedly ignoring your question. then you voted Nacho again for lying about his claim. then you put Oversoul at L-1 at the end. nowhere did you explicitly take a stance either way, ex. "I'd significantly prefer a Nacho lynch over an Oversoul lynch" or "I'd significantly prefer an Oversoul lynch over a Nacho lynch", or attempt to convince anyone on the Oversoul wagon to join you on the Nacho wagon, or anything along those lines.

so where in here am I supposed to get the impression you weren't intending to leave Oversoul open as a lynch option here?

Signs that Nacho was my top choice;
-I voted him as soon as day 3 started. That's a clear implication that I preferred his lynch over Oversoul. Obviously I wouldn't vote my 2nd strongest suspect right off the bat.
-I returned my vote to Nacho as soon as Oversoul did what I wanted him to do.
-I made it clear that I suspected Oversoul, but avoided joining the wagon even when RC was asking me to;

Spoiler: Quote 1

Wicked, we belong together... why did you leave me for pie???

I think Nacho's slightly more likely to be scum.

-I explicitly state that Nacho's my top suspect here;

Spoiler: Quote 2

Meh. I won't be on when Tammy is here, but she was 100% right about my intentions with my claim.

I am a VT. Was trying to act vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill.

Unvote.

If you wanted to be "vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill", why didn't you claim "not VT" right off the bat?

Why did you unvote here?

Throughout the course of this day, you have been my top suspect. While Oversoul has been a close second, he has never surpassed you in suspiciousness. I only voted for Oversoul because he was a. ignoring a question that I had asked him (which frustrates me and gives me no other option) and b. was refusing to claim (same rationale). He claimed and eventually answered my question, so I un-voted with the intention of moving my vote back to you.

BTW;
-The first time I voted Oversoul yesterday, it was

not

because I wanted to lynch him. It was because I was pressuring him to get answers.
-The second time I voted Oversoul, I had changed my mind, but I gave good reasons for doing so (which you have also ignored) and made the switch shortly before the day ended.

3. You can't argue that my Nacho-push was weaker than my Oversoul and then criticize my Oversoul push in the same sentence. That's a contradiction.

no, it isn't, and you are either misinterpreting or deliberately misrepresenting what I said there. I did not (and never intended to) criticize the reasoning behind your Oversoul push; all I'm saying is that your Oversoul push was significantly stronger than your Nacho push.

I saw this:

as for the push itself, there was a lot of questioning but the only real point was Nacho's RC read flop, which felt a lot weaker than the reasoning for his Oversoul push on a general level (

thinking the way Oversoul claimed was indicative of scum and that his reasoning for it didn't hold water

).

and assumed you were saying that my Oversoul push didn't hold water. Am I wrong?

[notscience]

Yeah, this definitely feels right.

[notscience]

The only way RC's play makes any sense at all today is scum who know it's probably over.

But I'm not sure why I still have reservations.

[Wickedestjr]

Hmm... on the topic of bad Nacho votes - what would you think if a player pushed the bandwagon and then unvoted for weak reasoning ? Oh hey that was you...

did you miss the part where I wanted to wait for Tammy to catch up and give her thoughts on the situation re: Nacho and where Nacho informed me I was misreading a part of why I thought he could be scum?

I didn't miss it. I just think it's weak/hypocritical if you're town, but a nice way to protect your partner if you're bussing.

[notscience]

In all honesty, part of me hopes to god wicked's scum because I hate when people discredit PoE.

[notscience]

I feel better about RC.

[Empire]

DAY 4, VOTECOUNT 2

No Lynch (1)

-

RedCoyote

Not Voting (5)

-

Wickedestjr, fferyllt, notscience, implosion, pieguyn

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch! Deadline is on September 11th at 7:10 PM EST or in (expired on 2015-09-11 19:10:17).

Mod Notes - N/A

[Wickedestjr]

the thing with this game is I'm very very very sure that both of {notsci, ffery} are town and I don't see myself reversing either of these reads unless something drastic happens. so, *if* either of {Wicked, RC} are town here, they need to convince me that I'm wrong about one of these reads.

Obviously something I cannot do because I've been town reading them for most of the game. NS is mostly a POE scum read at this point. Pretty sure RC is in the same boat as I am. All I can do is defend the allegations against myself.

I think Wicked is the reason we didn't lynch RC at the end of day 2.

Discuss.

that actually makes a lot of sense.

I'm reading through it again and Wicked had a lot of posts where he kinda sorta token-opposed the RC miller claim, but then he didn't actually vote him until it was too late to do anything about it.

This is awful too. I was initially critical of RC's claim and wanted to lynch him immediately after it, but SS convinced me that the miller claim was weird if RC was scum. SS had the most significant impact on RC's survival that day. You guys are blatantly misreading it.

[notscience]

Funny, I thought if we were scum it would be blatantly misrepping it?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm officially fine with a Wicked lynch.

Why? Please tell me it's not because of pie's last post.

But this is a surprising change considering there are still two living players outside yesterday's town bloc...

I put all my eggs in that Oversoul basket. I thought I made that clear...

I'm aware of that. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

[Wickedestjr]

In all honesty, part of me hopes to god wicked's scum because I hate when people discredit PoE.

When did I discredit POE?

[notscience]

3. Doing nothing to lynch him?!? Are you friggin kidding me? I did more than most/all of the other players that voted for him. I started the wagon on him on days 2 and 3, gave actual reasons for doing so beyond gut/POE, and I argued with him throughout the last day. That's more than most/all of this town can say.

"oh I actually pushed him thats so much better than figuring out when other people seem town and want to vote him"

That is what bugs the everliving shit out of me

[Wickedestjr]

Funny, I thought if we were scum it would be blatantly misrepping it?

That's synonymous to what I said. I don't think either of you would have misread it as town.

[notscience]

Misreading things is alignment indicative?

[notscience]

And they aren't the same thing, at all.

[Wickedestjr]

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to argue that I should be townread for pushing Nacho, because I'm very much capable of bussing as scum. But I'm also capable of catching scum as town and pie hasn't presented a single legitimate reason for having issue with my push.

3. Doing nothing to lynch him?!? Are you friggin kidding me? I did more than most/all of the other players that voted for him. I started the wagon on him on days 2 and 3, gave actual reasons for doing so beyond gut/POE, and I argued with him throughout the last day. That's more than most/all of this town can say.

"oh I actually pushed him thats so much better than figuring out when other people seem town and want to vote him"

That is what bugs the everliving shit out of me

I have no idea what the underlined is supposed to mean. You should try proofreading.

[notscience]

That's a pretty accurate paraphrase of what you said. It's essentially you one-upping everyone in the fucking game pretending that arguing with him and scumreading him for reasons other than poe makes you better.

And yes, I understand it's in response to something, but that doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off.

[Wickedestjr]

Misreading things is alignment indicative?

Yeah, scum want to twist things to fit their argument. Town have more motivation to read carefully and treat posts as fairly as possible.

And they aren't the same thing, at all.

I think they are the same thing and I'm the one that made the comment.

I'm not getting into a semantics argument with you about this.

[notscience]

Misreading is accidental whereas misrepping is purposeful.

So you saying "I think they misread" reads as you think that only scum-us could make a mistake when reading the thread?

Had you said "I think they are misrepping" that makes a lot more sense, but you didn't.

Which is why it's scummy.

[Wickedestjr]

That's a pretty accurate paraphrase of what you said. It's essentially you one-upping everyone in the fucking game pretending that arguing with him and scumreading him for reasons other than poe makes you better.

And yes, I understand it's in response to something, but that doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off.

I'm not doing this at all. The purpose of that post wasn't to argue that my vote was the best and that everyone should townread me for it. Pie accused me of doing nothing and I pointed out that I had done more than most - that's a legitimate response because Pie shouldn't be attacking me for a reason that's more applicable to others.

[Wickedestjr]

Ugh for crying out loud, I said I didn't want to get in a semantics argument.

Misreading is accidental whereas misrepping is purposeful.

So you saying "I think they misread" reads as you think that only scum-us could make a mistake when reading the thread?

Had you said "I think they are misrepping" that makes a lot more sense, but you didn't.

Which is why it's scummy.

As I said before, misreading = misrepping afaiac. I believe scum can deliberately OR accidentally misread things. I believe misrepping can be deliberate or accidental too. So I don't see a distinction.

If you guys are scum, then your mistreatment of my play could be deliberate or accidental. If it's actually accidental, then I still have issue because I think it's more likely that scum would make a mistake like this, they don't really care about getting it wrong as long as their arguments sound good to convince somebody.

Aside from slimy TYs, this is the first thing you've pointed out as scummy from me. You have no reason to assume I'm lying about my semantic interpretations.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm done for tonight