Mini 1710: A Midnight Sun -Game Over-

[4nxi3ty]

"So if she didn't start it, what do you think started it all?"

"Who knows. An act of God. The wily devil himself."

"No, no. We started it. The cracks in our hearts opening up for all possibilities to pour out and paint these homes and her with a deluge of aterial desires."

Morning Sun (1) - Marcrell
Elbirn (2) - LicketyQuickety, VysePresident
Klingoncelt

(3)

- Elbirn, Firebringer, grapes
Marcrell

(3)

- BlankFace, Empoleon Bellapatre, Morning Sun
Firebringer (1) - Suzune
grapes (1) - ShadedMelee

Not voting: penguin_alien, Klingoncelt

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-09 01:01:34)

[Suzune]

@Suze, that vote is bad, there are like 4 better places for it to be. And why so hesitant to put some pressure on Marc? Also, fire's brought up some decent points about your case - can you engage with them rather than shrug him off?

I'm doing my best here. Quite a few things on my plate.

-Yes I know it is an okay vote. If you read my past post I really wanted a vote on Marcell. But I was uncertain of the vote count and this one time I voted and put someone at L-1 without knowing and everyone panicked on me. So in order to avoid the mistake, I was going to put a place holder on Fire. That was what I said in my last post.

-I will engage him~

[Suzune]

You just jumped from null to scum in this post.

Wanna know why?

How in the hell am I lurking? Even if you wanna say I am active lurking that is false since I gave reads and explanations for it. So while some of my posts are fluff, your argument is shit.

I am going to assume your middle question is asking me why. Null means that the good actions and the bad actions equal themselves out. Good actions are things or posts I find as townish in nature or actively perusing the cause of catching the mafia. Scum actions are things that sidestep main problems, avoid tough conversations or make helping but not really helping posts. So the fact that you were null means you actions equaled out. So moving to scum suggests that a post of yours was in my mind on the more mafiaesque side.

Between the two of us we are some of the more active posting players, so in that extent you are not lurking. Rather, you did not describe your reads until you were asked to do them and even then you mentioned that most of them were gut. This suggests that not many of them were indeed reads but simply your feelings about the game with little data to back them. At least I like your 252. It explains your thoughts on people better. However, they just feel light to me on information, while I understand that this game is light on resources.

You are not my first choice for lynch today, however, I find you curious.

However, since the vote list is good, I would like to vote for my main suspect.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Marcell
Ironically I had a dream last night that I was reading posts by Marcell.

[Firebringer]

I don't equate reads any differently than gut feelings.
Your gut can be wrong, so can reads.
They are interchangeable.

You can try putting yourself in the mindset of what scum would do in situations and how they would react but you can't account for everything. Not all scum act the same, somethings could be meta. I don't think most of it is.

I think that your feelings get mixed into your reads no matter what you do. Their is no "data" in this game. Unless you count the bits and bytes that make up the text to formulate post.

Scumhunting is just getting into the mindset of scum and trying to see what they would do and see if anyone is mimicking that type of behavior.

I don't think any one action is scum for instance. I can act very 'anti town' that some will try to lynch me because I might avoid a question or not respond to someone. That is just my behavior. So everything you have to take with a little grain of salt and try to see what scum are feeling and thinking as best as you can.

This involves gut most of the time.

Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

[Suzune]

Well naturally, scum hunting and gut are part of the same practice. However, backing your gut feeling is important. I could say, "I do not believe in global warming. However, if I don't back this with facts it is just my opinion." Facts are important to solidify feelings. Or at least that is how I was taught to play this game. I understand early reads are often gut, but as we advance out, they need to be less gut and more fact.

[Firebringer]

Well naturally, scum hunting and gut are part of the same practice. However, backing your gut feeling is important. I could say, "I do not believe in global warming. However, if I don't back this with facts it is just my opinion." Facts are important to solidify feelings. Or at least that is how I was taught to play this game. I understand early reads are often gut, but as we advance out, they need to be less gut and more fact.

What facts?
Everything in here is words, the only factual information is claim which we can usually sort with investigative night actions(which don't exist in this game since it is nightless).

Its all words, and they can be interpreted a number of ways.
One persons scum tell is another persons town tell.

My reads were early reads, I think we are differing on when we should have solid reads now. You form reads much faster than I do, I just don't. I need more time, and when I do they still aren't backed up with a lot, because a lot of early stuff is completely Null to me.

When stuff pings me it usually is a hard ping.

[Suzune]

Well by facts, I mean posts that support your gut feeling. Gut is your initial feeling, posts that support it become a case. A case is what you present when a your ideas are fully formed so that others can understand and debate the claim made towards the person. You deny the possibility of investigative day powers?

I will wait for you more developed reads then, I see no reason to future push this conversation point.

[Marcrell]

Marcell, glad to see you voted out of RVS!

Also love the reasons youre voting us. Is it because Suznne is your buddy?

So why'd I think it? Total mystery.

Suz, Morning and Lickety are probably town.

This town list seems scummy to me. Put two common townreads on here(Morning and Lickety) and add Suzune, which town is split on, to make it seem like you aren't just echoing reads. The Suzune won't get big backlash or confrontation since town is split, while the other two townreads are completely safe.

You just jumped from null to scum in this post.

Wanna know why?

How in the hell am I lurking? Even if you wanna say I am active lurking that is false since I gave reads and explanations for it. So while some of my posts are fluff, your argument is shit.

I am going to assume your middle question is asking me why. Null means that the good actions and the bad actions equal themselves out. Good actions are things or posts I find as townish in nature or actively perusing the cause of catching the mafia. Scum actions are things that sidestep main problems, avoid tough conversations or make helping but not really helping posts. So the fact that you were null means you actions equaled out. So moving to scum suggests that a post of yours was in my mind on the more mafiaesque side.

Between the two of us we are some of the more active posting players, so in that extent you are not lurking. Rather, you did not describe your reads until you were asked to do them and even then you mentioned that most of them were gut. This suggests that not many of them were indeed reads but simply your feelings about the game with little data to back them. At least I like your 252. It explains your thoughts on people better. However, they just feel light to me on information, while I understand that this game is light on resources.

You are not my first choice for lynch today, however, I find you curious.

However, since the vote list is good, I would like to vote for my main suspect.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Marcell
Ironically I had a dream last night that I was reading posts by Marcell.

Marc

r

ell. Common mistake.

[Suzune]

I apologize Marcrell. One sounds like a name to me, so I thought I had it right. I promise to get it right next time.

[LicketyQuickety]

Town:
Suzune - This is roughly the same way that she was playing in Mini 1667. Only one that I noticed that even included me in a reads list too, besides Lickity. But I'm not counting Lickity's read on me because I honestly don't think it's based on anything other than the want for me to be town.

Lickety - This is the way that LQ played town in our first game together. Takes a bit more effort to read into him and I might not agree where he's coming from all the time but this isn't what I would expect LQ scum to play like if I was in the game. 134 I like a lot for LQ town.

Morning Sun - I always end up town reading people who put an effort into moving out of RVS, 28 and the next few after were attempts at that. And it worked a bit, getting responses from LQ and Fire. Fire's response was kind of blah. Morning Sun's RVS analysis had little content and it was basically a "These people are town" without any explanation, which I'm totally okay with because it was supposed to get people to start questioning why and start a discussion beyond the RVS jokes, and Fire's response to it was "Great minds think alike". 31. Fire is also the first to mention the Human flavor rather than just saying town. Not sure how I feel about that.

Grapes - 82 is town af.

Fire - All of Fire's posts have felt genuine to me.

Null:
Vyse
Elbirin

Slight Scum:
Kling

Scum:
Marcell
Penguin

VOTE: Marcell

Okay sorry, Wednesday is my really busy night. Was unavailable then.

Was sort of liking Lickety, this bothers me though.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

It feels wrong.

Suzune seems sort of town to me.

What about this do you not like? What about it feels wrong?

Okay sorry, Wednesday is my really busy night. Was unavailable then.

Was sort of liking Lickety, this bothers me though.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

It feels wrong.

Suzune seems sort of town to me.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

You're not a town read because of your reads. You're a town read because I can't understand you so bad that you clearly must be town.

The fact that your thought process is so uniquely you, it feels real. You're not scum faking thoughts, you're town blabbering nonsense that only makes sense to you.

....I feel like that sounds mean but it's not supposed to >.> I moonlogic frequently, and I know I'm babbling bullshit that no one else can agree with when I do it.

I don't agree. I think it leans scummier. It could go either way, pissed off town, or scum frustrated that people aren't going for it, but it feels more like scum anger.

Why am I a scum read fire?

I'd like to thank the mod for fixing my name when I mentioned it. You do good work.

Big ping. It feels off, how does LQ questioning a town read on himself feel like scum anger? Second it completely ignores what Elbirin actually said as to why he is townreading LQ.

Marcell's next two posts are a pretty empty vote on Morning Sun and fluff. Not feeling good about this slot.

This looks like a normal Town!BF post to me. His lack of real involvement up until this point and my reading it as Town is a bit weird. I've seen BF go almost completely quiet for a large chunk of the game as town and that is what I was going off of. There was just not enough going on in the thread for him to get involved. I would think BF would try and get stuff going more as Scum, both for the opportunity to get some town cred for getting things started and cast some suspicion on people early and/or get town on the wrong track so they would have to spend some amount of time getting things the way they should be. BF is fully capable of making people look guilty as either alignment and the fact that he has mostly taken a hands off approach seems to indicate to me that he is town because I think he would just be doing more as Scum.

M'kay, I'm going to stick with first summing up my first impressions for now, and start working in from there.

---

Town - LQ(+), Fire(?), Bellaparte

NOTES:

LQ

just has a very straightforward, clear thought process for me to follow, and it's actually a little baffling to me that the general consensus seems to be the opposite, even among the other people who think he's Town. I'm not fully on the same page as him or anything, but it's not that hard and there's some good stuff mixed in there.

Fire

is really just meh, but I'm okay with the slightly careless attitude for now.

Empoleon Bellaparte

leans Town for me right now, mostly because they have a fairly clear thought process & flow to their style. Basically, it amounts to me not seeing an 'intentionality' or positioning behind their posts, and I'm okay with how they're engaging so far.

---

Null - Suzune(+), Penguin, Morning Sun(+-? ), Marcrell, Grapes, BF

NOTES

Suzune

is null because all the tonal issues & stuff are things I'm familiar with from her, and I think it's just part of her natural style. I like more about her engagement so far than I dislike, but there's not really enough for me to work with confidently yet.

Penguin

is just meh so far. 165 isn't terrible, but it's pushing only in directions I don't care much about, which bugs me a little. 245 Doesn't really change much either.

Morning Sun

is weird for me, because on the one hand, I like the aggressiveness to their style and focus I'm okay with. It's not obvtown by any stretch, but it's decent, and seems to flow so far. On the other, I disagree with almost everything Salamance is saying, and his pushes/Townreads all make me a little uncomfortable. I'm also irked about that 'scumslip' posts.

Marcrell

has lots of aggressiveness, and I can kinda, sorta get him. I'm probably going to need to read him a couple times before I have anything actually useful to put here.

Grapes

is a bit of a back & forth for me. I didn't like his catch up stuff much in 90, but I'm okay with 256.

Blankface

is just meh so far. I don't feel like I have much to work with now, given that his normal style pings me like crazy.

---

Mildly Scummy - Elbirn(-), Klingon(?), ShadedMelee(?)

Elbirin

is largely a matter of gut for me at this point, but I feel like he's moving with the flow of the game. There's nothing special in what he's saying, and it's baffling to me how much credit some people are giving him for his catchup posts. It feels more like someone trying to seem Town more than an actual independent thought process.

Klingon

is just meh. I don't actually care about the whole "She's saying Human repeatedly thing" in the least. I'm irked at her for adding to the "Vyse scumslipped" thing, which is why she's down here, but I don't feel particularly strongly about this one. I do want to see reads & stuff before I let it go, though.

ShadedMelee

- I thought about putting him in with the Nulls, but I don't really care for any of his posts so far. I'd like to see the reads & stuff he's promising.

VOTE: Elbirn

Feeling this the most right now.

---

LYNCH-IT-WITH-FIRE-SCUM!!!Eleven!! - Nobody yet.

---

Also, here's a spoilered list of my train of thought notes & stuff I was writing before deciding to sum it up in a readslist.

Spoiler: Train of thought notes

-I'm having a tricky time connecting with this game. It's weird jumping back & forth from the meta of my homesite to here.

-Going to stick with first impressions for now, while I'm working my way into the game.

-Don't like Grapes #82 all that much. Mostly, I'm in disagreement with a large number of the directions he's pushing.

-LQ is a little weird, but okay so far. Love his #92, actually. (FutureVyse Note - Grapes did a little better in #256. I'm seeing a bit more thought emerging, and want to watch it play out. We'll call him Null for now.)

-Penguin's #165 is meh so far. I kinda want to see it play out a little more before offering my thoughts, but it's mostly just pushing in directions I don't feel great about.

-#167 Re: Suzune - That's sort of how I see Suzune, with the caveat that I can play a pretty nice & friendly game as well, and because it comes from my basic personality, I can do it as either alignment. This basically amounts to a 'yes, but Null'. I don't agree with the reasons being presented against Suzune to date, but I have yet to form a strong opinion on her.

-I don't like the dismissive tone in #168. Not that I believe it's mean per se, but I don't like the way you're shooting down LQ. It feels like you're adding a bit of peer pressure here, for lack of a better term. (I'm tired, but you get what I mean, I hope.)

-I see Sala's #171, and raise it a yawn. But seriously, humor aside, I'm just not seeing it.

-On a side note, it's weird to me how Sala thinks Suzune would be an obvTown player or a difficult lynch, because my impression was very much the opposite.

-#207 This is such a common thing in the meta anymore, I'm not giving it any points.

-#258 Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but I actually find it harder to engage when I'm Town than when I'm scum. With scum, I have a huge library of things TownVyse has thought before, because I'm a very meticulous, slow-paced Townie usually, and tend to run through a heck of a lot of theories & ideas before I post. It's all ready made for me to use as scum. For that same reason, I have a little more trouble engaging early as Town. (I've been working on that recently, with some success, but there's been a lot keeping me from getting attached to this game.)

Every once in a while there is a persons who seems to understand me, and I'm usually going to give them a town read because of it. Could he be saying all this stuff about me just to buddy me? Sure, but the things is, it should be pretty easy to observer that I'm not someone who's really all that good at influencing the game so I just as soon assume that when that happens that it is town doing it because there wouldn't really be much benefit to do this as scum. Basically, if people are reading me like they usually do and saying I am not making any sense, why would scum be like "wait a minute, this guy actually makes sense, how 'bout we hear him out?" Its happened about three times. One of those times BF may or may not remember that it was Fro99er in my first newbie game that basically said "LQ... makes sense." Another time is when I was playing on my home site and there was a person who seemed to understand how I play and thought much the same things that Vyse wrote.


There are some things I like about this post. He doesn't have the exact same reads that everyone else is giving. He explains his reads in a way that actually makes sense. He explains his notes, which is a huge plus. While yes, he can make that up as scum, I just don't buy that he would be doing that in the game yet.

I do have some questions for you though Vyse.

1) Do you use PoE when reading people at all? I guess I'm really asking how you read people in general.
2) If you had to lynch someone right now who would it be? I would also like to know along with this if you lynch for information or do you only lynch your scum reads?

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

[Klingoncelt]

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

I'm not sure if Marcrell's Scum. In fact, due to meta, he's leaning Town for me. I've been in a couple games with him, both of us were Scum, all he did was make a couple vanity posts then he flaked. He's way more active in this game, that has him leaning Town for me.

[Klingoncelt]

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

[Klingoncelt]

Oh, Elbirn, Firebringer, Grapes, you guys can vote for someone else now. I'm Town.

[Marcrell]

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

To being bad enough to live to day 2!

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

To being bad enough to live to day 2!

My main concern is that you are just not putting in enough effort into you game(s). I'll be the first to tell you I think my game is sub-par at this point.

[Firebringer]

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

Do you ever not have trouble reading me?

[Elbirn]

I just want to note that I'm here and catching up..I've wound up in 3 gamed at once when my time really only allows for 1 or 2 typically, and I've been busy on top of that. Sorry :/

[4nxi3ty]

Prodding grapes, BlankFace, and penguin_alien.

[ShadedMelee]

*sigh* I am so tired of being scumread early in the game. How many times do people have to see my Town (or in this case Human) flip before they figure out that I'm not Scum in every damn game I play? It's depressing and demotivating.

In contrast to FB's opinion, this is a town post.

[ShadedMelee]

I find myself agreeing with firebringer here. It's a poor reaction to not a lot of pressure. And then an even stranger reaction when they start getting votes.

Think that calls for some more.

VOTE: klingoncelt

And this makes grapes a good lynch for today. Come on people.

[BlankFace]

Picking up my prod. I'll be home in three hours and I'll respond to the questions people asked when I get out of work.

[Firebringer]

*sigh* I am so tired of being scumread early in the game. How many times do people have to see my Town (or in this case Human) flip before they figure out that I'm not Scum in every damn game I play? It's depressing and demotivating.

In contrast to FB's opinion, this is a town post.

How is that a town post? It looks like a sympathy grabbing post.
Maybe it is genuine, but it doesn't feel like it at all.

How many games have you played with Klingoncelt?


@BF how you feel about Klingon right now?

[Klingoncelt]

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

Do you ever not have trouble reading me?

Can't say anything because ongoing games but I have figured out your alignment in that M-FM.

Some people I just can't get a grip on.

[grapes]

Prodding grapes, BlankFace, and penguin_alien.

yarg