FF7 Mafia (Game Over)

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: pirate mollie

I think I'll prefer this actually.

Why do you prefer that?

[Cerberus v666]

And you think in [hiplop,prohawk,cerb] there is one or two more? And you said you were town reading me, so it'd just prohawk/hiplop. Why haven't any of us hammered you yet? Especially if there are two.

[Cerberus v666]

So, mollie, myself, and seiko are not opposed to a prohawk kynch. And antagonist was voting him to start the day. But we're not lynching him?

Mollie how does radja's claim make no sense? Or seiko. I missed that, I feel that that's wrong. You're also making assumptions about how D6 has to be tvs. Is there an actual REASON for that? Why is D6 hawk v mastina TvS, while D1 seiko v titus is TvT?

[Cerberus v666]

Ummm. The post you quoted said radja was scum because his claim makes no sense. And you said you agreed with everything in it, but you thought a doc could be either scum or town. So you disagree with just that piece of the post? Just because you think it's possible, doesn't mean you think his claim, as a whole, makes sense.

[Cerberus v666]

So, Seiko is still scum yes? Spreading paranoia about 3 scum left etc. At this point mollies continured survival is null, given that suspicion has been placed on her as a result of it. Hiplops hammer was scummy, looked a bit contrived, nice deflection of responsibility for the hammer onto antagonist, if scum. Buf, again, a little contrived. Too obvious? Maybe.

Prohawk. Hmm. Off the wagon with me. That's very positive, unless the team is seiko/prohawk, with seiko coming in to diffuse the hawk suspicion by making sure nobody misses that he, and everyone else, had the chance to hammer but didn't.

Mollie, target please.

Let's get full claims pleass, kthx. Rude, BP, unfortunately outed by Fresh, so I probably won't be getting us any extra mislynches.

Mollie is idk who, odd night jailkeeper.

Hiplop is??

Seiko is???
Prohawk is???

[Cerberus v666]

The sarcasm unnecessary, I'm quite aware that my scum hunting is, well, abysmal here. Generally, my strength comes from analyzing play throughout the game and seeing what eh, doesn't fit....which I haven't had the time to really do at all this game. So, yeah, my dcumhunting is basically nil here.

On a slightly unrelated note, why do you feel that insulting me makes me less likely to vote you and end the game in favor of scum, if you're town? Doesn't it make more sense to *not* try to provoke people into making bad decisions?

[Cerberus v666]

im vincent!

Not a full claim.

[Cerberus v666]

cv666, what is your bussing meta?

i dunno if this'll affect anything but it is related to something i noticed

I've never rolled scum here, and only thrice elsewhere. Once I was a SK, so, nothing to show you there, and I don't think I bussed/suggested bussing in either of those games, but I would certainly do it if it seemed smart...but I don't find it to be especially great. The little bit of extra town cred you get from bussing gets you to end game...but it doesn't get you a win, in my opinion at least.

[Cerberus v666]

Mollie, can Seiko be scum?

I dunno what to tell you? I'm not good at this game?

how about you begin with why you thought that were 3 scum left. with 3 flipped scum from shrinra and only 1 from meteor. god I need to look at my spreadsheet more.

I am not even sure how this is even a debate at this point.

VOTE: prohawk

eta: orly

Why are you calling out prohawk for that, but ignoring seiko about it?

[Cerberus v666]

Mollie, can Seiko be scum?

I dunno what to tell you? I'm not good at this game?

how about you begin with why you thought that were 3 scum left. with 3 flipped scum from shrinra and only 1 from meteor. god I need to look at my spreadsheet more.

I am not even sure how this is even a debate at this point.

VOTE: prohawk

eta: orly

Why are you calling out prohawk for that, but ignoring seiko about it?

because i am reading 1 head as town and 1 as scum and trying to marry the concept of notty buddying me this hard as scum.

why are you deflecting from the main convo at hand? cos it is about hawk boy. and unless you have a fantastic case to point towards him being town I am wondering exactly where you are going with this.

I am unsure about seiko. all I know to do in mylo is to deal with the shit that is directly in front of me and it points to hawk boy as scum. I don't THINK that I will be around tomorrow if hawk boy flips scum (AND I AM PRETTY SURE HE WILL!) but if I am I will worry about that tomorrow.

Main convo at hand? I'm fairly certain 2-3 posts back and forth isn't much of a convo to deflect from. And, to answer the question, I'm questioning YOU because you're not being consistent. If thinking that there were 3 scum still alive is scummy, then it's scummy for BOTH people who posited the three scum scenario. You can't just selectively apply the scummy thing to the person you're suspicious of. That's obvious confirmation bias there.

Being "unsure" about Seiko and only being "pretty sure" about someone else really sounds like two different ways of saying you don't have a solid read either way.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh. I thought I had set it to he.. Nothing to be sorry about, I've given no indication either way.

Prohawk, Seiko raises a good point. You're guilty of notable inconsistency. You did say yesterday, iirc, that you thought 2 was more likely, but here you're saying you thought there were 3. What changed?

[Cerberus v666]

Hiplops doing a very good impression of lost and confused town, if he's scum, btw. Hmm. One sec, I have post in another game linking to all of them, and I'm currently mobile. Not that many, and a very different format (48hr days, iirc), but it's something. :p

[Cerberus v666]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6909627

I believe that's all 10 of my offsite games. My name on that forum was IWantToUseNumbersInMyName.

Mollie, I could ABSOLUTELY be wrong. Like, it's so incredibly possible. I think he was a proponent in the sense that early in the day he suggested we not vote, because of the lylo risk, but he said later that he thought that 2 scum was more likely, in relation to seiko freaking out about my vote on their slot.

I could be misremembering, mobile, and not double checking my memory right now.

[Cerberus v666]

Prohawk, if you were assuming there were 3 scum yesterday, then you wouldn't have called Seikos reaction to my vote on their slot "way over the top". Mollies right, and so are, in that you were consistently pushing the idea of 3 scum, including asking someone for precedent of a 17 town/6 scum game, but your response to her reaction doesn't make sense if you truly believed that. I would have noticed that yesterday had I been paying proper attention to the game.

So, why the inconsistency? Either you truly believed there were 3, and Seikos reaction made perfect sense, or you didn't, in which case, why were you acting like you believed there were 3?

[Cerberus v666]

Also, in case anybody missed it, we now have a limited number of possible scenarios, since evwryone has chimed in since mollies vote.

1) Mollie is scum, and thus her team needs one town to vote with her before they can hammer to win.
2)Hawk is scum, and naturally his town isn't going to bus him in lylo.
3)There's somehow only one scum left on meteor. don't believe this is possible, unless there's also a third party of some sort, but that still feels extremely unlikely.
4) Hawk and Mollie are both scum, and making an absurd bus play in lylo to try and guarantee a win tomorrow. As implausible as 3 is, I view this as even less likely, and only include it for the sake of completeness.

In short, I don't think voting outside of mollie/hawk is especially wise, unless someone has a compelling case for why someone else is scum?

[Cerberus v666]

Also, in case anybody missed it, we now have a limited number of possible scenarios, since evwryone has chimed in since mollies vote.

1) Mollie is scum, and thus her team needs one town to vote with her before they can hammer to win.

2)Hawk is scum, and naturally his town isn't going to bus him in lylo.

3)There's somehow only one scum left on meteor. don't believe this is possible, unless there's also a third party of some sort, but that still feels extremely unlikely.
4) Hawk and Mollie are both scum, and making an absurd bus play in lylo to try and guarantee a win tomorrow. As implausible as 3 is, I view this as even less likely, and only include it for the sake of completeness.

In short, I don't think voting outside of mollie/hawk is especially wise, unless someone has a compelling case for why someone else is scum?

this doesn't even compute.

your whole post reeks of fencesitting and stalling.

@ seiko

I am going to tell you what i told muffin and ank uh2. lets lynch scum claiming prohawk and then we will go from there. if prohawk flips scum and I am pretty sure he is going to! then I will most likely be nked. if you are in a 3 player lylo then I don't know what to tell you and honestly I am not even super sure of your alignment right now. I lean most likely town even that link was a game where you hardballed notty and there are some eerily similarities to how you treated cerb. and I am not even sure what you think about cerb or even hippy for that matter.

Yeah, the bolded should say "partner". That should make it compute.

Mollie, we're almost certainly in lylo, and you're upset at me because I said there is scum between yourself and hawk? You call a declaration that there are only two reasonable options for scum fence sitting? How so?

[Cerberus v666]

The over the top reaction was because he was voting for TOWN at the same time FREAKING out about you voting for him. It had nothing to do with how many scum were or werenot speculated.

The alignment of the person being voted for has no relevance to town you's opinion on seiko freaking out. Town you didn't know that persons alignment at that time, so you can't say Seikos freak out at that time was unreasonable on that basis.

With that meaningless defense aside (unless you're claiming seiko and yourself are both scum, and thus you knew seiko knew radja's alignment), you're left with the fact that "prohawk who thinks that there are 3 scum left" knows exactly why seiko was freaking out about the prospect of having me leaving my vote parked on them overnight. So, why did you call it an overreaction? I think it was an overreaction because I found it extremely unlikely for there to be three scum left, but for you....it should have been a reasonable response.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. Perhaps I misspoke. I didn't mean upset in any emotional sense. I meant upset in the sense that my behavior has elicited a negative reaction from you, as evidenced by your decision to call it fencesitting and stalling. You also didn't address my question of why my declaration was indicative of fencesitting or stalling. It'd also worth wondering why you're in such a hurry to lynch prohawk now. Yesterday I was suggesting a prohawk kynch over a radja one, because lynching the doctor is stupid, and those who thought radja was scum were also suspicious of prohawk, and you didn't support that idea. Why?

Pedit: sure, I noted that point myself, and they addressed it,, but extremely weakly and unconvincingly. That doesn't change the fact that it's unreasonable for town you who thinks there are 3 scum left to call them out for overreacting, when in reality that vote represented a loss if there were indeed 3 scum left and they were town reading me. It's a very very easy thung to understand...I understood it, I just disagreed.

Anyways, both yourself and seiko are very inconsistent in that regard (and so is mollie, actually). Seiko, if afraid of 3 scum, should NEVER have been happy with any quick votes going down, or had their vote in play at all unless absolutely certain it was on scum.. You should have been understanding of why they were concerned. And mollie should be suspicious of both of you for your belief that there were 3 scum, if she's suspicious of either of you.

What I have having trouble with is determining if these things are the result of scum play, or town rationalizing bad and/or inconsistent play based on their reads.

[Cerberus v666]

Actually, this group won't reason with reason so there isn't any point. And I haven't done enough buddying to get people to side with me. The fact that I survived the whole Mastin issue was a miracle in itself (But that is only because the scum this game weren't playing optimally siding with Mastin, although its largely in part to SAVE FACE for post game discussion).

Eh, I'm reasoning with reason I think? Maybe I'm not?

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. Perhaps I misspoke. I didn't mean upset in any emotional sense. I meant upset in the sense that my behavior has elicited a negative reaction from you, as evidenced by your decision to call it fencesitting and stalling. You also didn't address my question of why my declaration was indicative of fencesitting or stalling. It'd also worth wondering why you're in such a hurry to lynch prohawk now. Yesterday I was suggesting a prohawk kynch over a radja one, because lynching the doctor is stupid, and those who thought radja was scum were also suspicious of prohawk, and you didn't support that idea. Why?

"upset" is a qualifier for an emotional state, you don't get to change the definition just because I called you out on you misrepping me. and you are still misrepping me for saying it is a negative reaction to point out what you are doing. I have no idea what you are talking about wrt "declaration", did you think that what I said was based solely on 1 post?

I did vote prohawk. and pushed his lynch. I settled on radja because i thought that it wld clear things up and when I iso-ed psychlone/guy/radja I realized that my townread on them was based on solely on psychlone before 1 head was force replaced. guy didn't provide much and radja didn't really give a stellar performance either. so yeah, the strength of that read was severley weakened. I opted to work with my townreads who were antagonist and seiko at the time and oh boy lookee antagonist flipped town. it may not have been the best course of action since radja actually did flip town but I worked with the info that I had at the time.

and I am not in a "hurry" so another misrep where you keep assigning traits that I am not actually exhibiting and it is getting old. I am voting who i am fairly certain is scum, it is just that I seriously don't understand why town is so reluctant to lynch scum on this site I feel every is sisyphus hurdle that I have to jump it LIKE NEARLY EVERY GAME.

I said that I wld patiently wait and that is what I am doing, I am just pointing out that as par for the course it is going to probably drag out like it always does but I am not letting up on this. prohawk is scum.

We can argue semantics if you'd like, but I know *exactly* what I meant. I clearly didn't communicate it clearly enough for you, and that's fine.

The fact that you keep harping on about how "reluctant" everyone else is to vote in friggin lylo, of all times, is itself pushing people to vote faster. Perhaps you're not in a hurry. Perhaps you're not impatient. But you certainly APPEAR to be those things.

BTW, I see hawks posting. It's...fairly absurd. Marlene, as a vig? Marlene, as a bomb? Fake claim, on someone who isn't scum? Last Shinra? All this is very weird.

[Cerberus v666]

hey guys! I am not responding to thing until claimed scum prohawk is lynched!

Yay, refusal to communicate, awesome!

[Cerberus v666]

hey guys! I am not responding to thing until claimed scum prohawk is lynched!

??? What is this but a statement of intent to not communicate further until x is done, at which point the game will either be over, or, if your suspicions are correct, you'll be dead? That means BY YOUR OWN WORDS you don't expect to be able to offer any further input about the game after this lynch happens.

Also, I don't look at meta. Like, at all really. Also, you were hydraing, with a chronic lurker. That's a meaningless game to base someones scum meta off of.

I'm not sure why you're reacting the way you are though. I haven't actually accused you of being scum at all, I'm just pointing out things you're saying that aren't consistent and don't make sense to me.

[Cerberus v666]

I am the last of the Shinra group. Balk all you like Seiko you have to mis-rep here to survive.

There ARE two Meteor.

This is why the game is still going - I am still alive. Likely only two town remain. So the two of you who ARE town, if you lynch me today, you lose meteor wins. If we mislynch, meteor wins. If we lynch Meteor today, I have to successfully cross kill and then you win. If I fail to kill the right person, Meteor wins. There isn't a scenario for me to win, but I would LOVE to take down Meteor before I go.

It would be in YOUR best interest to lynch Meteor today. Which isn't me. It's Mollie for certain.

Hmm. Interesting. You could cause a draw, but I find it unlikely that meteor isn't going to kill you.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, not sure how I feel about any of this. I'll be back later. Like, don't expect a vote from me until, well, probably tomorrow.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, I've pretty much pissed them off im sure. Too bad they tried to cross kill last night and failed!

Interesting. That only fits with what you said about you failing to kill mollie, and someone dying last night, in a very small number of situations.

[Cerberus v666]

Man, what a crappy spot for scum, being stuck in a game situation like this with me-the-never-voting. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, I've pretty much pissed them off im sure. Too bad they tried to cross kill last night and failed!

Interesting. That only fits with what you said about you failing to kill mollie, and someone dying last night, in a very small number of situations.

so will you be working from the angle that there are 4 shinra and 2? 3? meteor?

do tell.

Well, it would have to be 4/3 for what he's saying to be true. The part that's confusing though, is antagonist died last night, and prohawk claims that you tried to cross kill, and that he failed to kill you last night. That would indicate that he redirected a shot you made, at antagonist, somehow, and that his shot was somehow stopped by you. That's what he's saying happened, basically.

[Cerberus v666]

They shot antagonist because he looked like scum

He...didn't look like scum. Not as much as you at least. Anyways, alright, so you're just making assumptions. K. No knowledge of stuff. I'll keep this in mind.

[Cerberus v666]

something is missing that's kiiiiiiiiinda important if hawk actually wanted his last-shinra claim to be taken seriously

cv666, have an idea what it is?

Honestly, I'm currently playing DnD while having this conversation, so, umm...I'm not exactly utilizing my best critical thinking skills. So no. That's why I said I would be back tomorrow, but this is all so entertaining I keep refreshing!

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, I've pretty much pissed them off im sure. Too bad they tried to cross kill last night and failed!

Interesting. That only fits with what you said about you failing to kill mollie, and someone dying last night, in a very small number of situations.

so will you be working from the angle that there are 4 shinra and 2? 3? meteor?

do tell.

Well, it would have to be 4/3 for what he's saying to be true. The part that's confusing though, is antagonist died last night, and prohawk claims that you tried to cross kill, and that he failed to kill you last night. That would indicate that he redirected a shot you made, at antagonist, somehow, and that his shot was somehow stopped by you. That's what he's saying happened, basically.

I think you shld run around and say that there are commies too!

do you know what you do with scum claims? you lynch them. you don't dawdle, you don't dither, you don't make deals with claimed scum.

this is mafia 101, like the very basics of mafia. I am not lying prohawk is and I am not quite sure why you are choosing to listen to fucking scum.

I fucking knew I shld have started that thread in md post hu2 game. but I was exhausted after that game from trying to convince town to lynch confscum and win the game for town cos they didn't seem to wanna do it.

I have played lots of borky multi-games and so far they have been pretty symmetrical and are a 1:4 scum to town ratio, give or take a town player. prohawk is meteor scum and all you are doing is looking as desperate as he is in trying to keep him alive.

*shrug* The only good thing about being town is you don't have to worry about how you look.

[Cerberus v666]

Anyways, Mollie, you're not gonna get me mislynched. Trust. I recommend going after someone else.

[Cerberus v666]

Nicely done guys.

[Cerberus v666]

just hopping all over that vote to end the game possibly. *sigh*.

[Cerberus v666]

gdi i considered the possibility of that but there were too many fucking things about this game i couldn't reconcile and i thought your interactions looked like you-scum buddying up to mollie-town.

A;SELKJF;GAKGLJKJGFJSAD;KLFAJFG;LKFD

Wait, which possibility? DId you misinterpret my sarcastic "nicely done guys" as a scum claim? Because it wasn't. I wish it was though.

[Cerberus v666]

GG. I'll have more to say when I'm not on the way to see Garbage! :p

[Cerberus v666]

I'm sorry mastin

I really did think your play looked like town but guilties are guilties.

[Cerberus v666]

[Cerberus v666]

Jaqen, can you explain *why* you faked your result? just...so bad.

Also, I'm sorry everyone. I honestly put this game on a low priority level in order to focus on SU (which I ended up screwing up anyways, if just barely), and was thus way too out of touch with the game to really argue solidly for any other lynches. I knew the radja lynch was shit, but I didn't have anything in the way of reasons to push for anyone else....similarly, on the last day I just....didn't have a solid grasp on things. That's entirely my fault for not keeping up with the game the way I usually want to....it's the reason why I only play one game at a time usually, and I had 3 going on at one point during this.

Anyways, sorry guys. 0/4 now as town, even though I'm pretty damn sure I'm not that fucking terrible as town.

If anyone cares, Garbage was awesome and performed their entire first album plus other stuff.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm mobile and haven't looked at the night actions yet, did anyone ever try to kill my slot? Because ya know, that kill wouldn't have worked if not. :p

And thank you hiplop. I really wish the day hadn't ended when it did, the only perosn I had isoed at all was prohawk, which didn't tell me anything new and happened RIGHT before he scum claimed. Mollies push and reactions to me were really bothering me on the last day, but idk, things just didn't run long enough for me to have a chance to make up for sucking...and you, hiplop, just had me confused as to why everyone said you were town, but friggin everyone kept saying you were town, so I just kinda sheeped it up to the end. Meh. It's all excuses and hindsight though, so who knows what I was really thinking. All that matters is the results, which weren't especially impressive.

Pedit: I haven't read the dead pt. Been busy all night.

[Cerberus v666]

Anywaus, so if I'm understanding thus correctly, withiut reading the dead pt, mastin made PR crumbs, you tracked her nowhere, and concluded that that meant she was a lyng scum goon, and not that she wasn't simply trying to trick scum into shooting her over am actual PR?

[Cerberus v666]

I disagree. Pushing based on your circumstancial evidence and treating it as a confirmed guilty is a terrible misplay on your part. Maybe you both played poorly in that exchange, but you initiated it. Blame lies on you for getting that slot lynched. You're free to disagree, of course, as I think you will.

[Cerberus v666]

You. Nevwr. Gave. Your. Results.

Period.

You never explicitly said: Mastin did not do anything on the night I tracked her. That conflicts with x y z in her posts hinting that she DID do something. Because of that, I feel confident in saying she's scum.

What you did is bad. It's shitty town play. What you could have done, above, makes it good town play.

You were trying to play the hero, with the super clever oh look, I CAUGHT HER WITH A MEANINGLESS RESULT, because I'm soooooooooo good. You weren't trying to help your team win.

That's how I see it at least. Get out of here with your history of play arguments. Smart players are capable of change, and are AWARE of those things which everyone else picks up on about them. It's insulting of you to think that other players, especially ones you claim to consider skilled, are so incapable of doing something which doesn't match the pattern of previous games that you can just throw out reason.

[Cerberus v666]

Anyways, I think that's the last thing I'll say about that here, you're welcome to pm me jaqen about our playstyle differences, because, well, like Varsoon ...I want to get along with everyone and have us all play together better, and so in spite of my desire to just write you off as a lost cause, I'd rather talk to you and figure out how to convince you to not do things like that again.

[Cerberus v666]

Should I not have scum-claimed? It somehow brought about a speed lynch, but I think I was going to get lynched anyway? dunno....

Given your belief that mollie was scum, Seikos statement that they wanted to analyze more before voting, and my displayed and commented on tendency to be stupidly cautious with my vote (unless it's specifically to see how people react to things like balancing counterwagons), I don't think claiming scum was great. It made me want to go reread things, but too many people were on the verge of voting for you already, and that just pushed them over. A vote on Mollie, with your stated reasons, without the scum claim, would have given you more time to try to talk people into voting her. Seiko was your real problem there, I don't know if you could have ever convinced them that mollie was scum. If not, then your play gave you the best chance at a win or draw. If you could have convinced them though, a slower reveal and push on mollie may have been betted.

[Cerberus v666]

mostly out of curiosity, cv666, would you have lynched hiplop over me if i had voted him that day?

if you wouldn't have, i regret that last day a lot less. /hides

Do you mean on the last day, or do you mean in a hypothetical 3p lylo?

[Cerberus v666]

After mollie voted hawk, and everyone spoke without a hammer, there is no chance I would have voted outside of {Mollie, Hawk}. PrIor to that, had you voted hiplop early, it would have created the same kind of 1v1 between the two of you to me. I assume prohawk would have voted, and then I would have had to see if a seiko/hawk team made sense, and then gone from there.

In a void, just based on who I felt was scummier, I have no fucking idea. Hiplop had NOTHING going for him. Like, there was no reason to town read him for me, and he was buddying to me earlier. You were deliberately provoking me, as someone who you townread, instead of trying to work with me. I am 100% serious that I needed to reread things. Looking the game over, I feel like I would have noticed that you weren't doing what scum you should have been doing with my slot. There was little reason to be confrontational with me, as scum, when only one of hiplop/hawk could be your partner, and the other was an easier mislynch. If I had noticed that, then yes, I would have lynched hiplop over you. I'm not sure how quickly I would have gotten around to it though.

It's all pretty crappy, because I know, with hindsight, that the clues were absolutely there to clear you and condemn mollie, but I don't know if I would have picked up on it.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm, I realized I said mollie above, when I meant to say hiplop.

And yes, everything Varsoon is saying about not being jerks to each other and actively working to improve the community by working together to improve each others short comings, rather than just writing people off and removing them from the community, is fantastic.

[Cerberus v666]

I think any question of whether or not saint has been spoken with before without result depends on how people spoke to him. It's all about how you aprprpach the individual in question.

Pedit: no, pie, I could have easily missed it, or not had the time to reread as I intended to. I've meant to iso and properly reread things in this game for weeks now, and never did it, even when I only had this game to look at, so there's no guarantee I would have actually been able to think things through.

At the time you voted, had you voted hiplop, I would have questioned you about why you'd possibly want to lynch outside of hawk/mollie when we have a worst case 50% chance at catching scum, with our analysis likely only improving that %. At that point, there was almost no chance I'd vote for anyone else...so don't feel like you could have pulled me to hiplop.

[Cerberus v666]

I can be pretty convincing when I'm actually right about something. ~

and I'm not saying we necessarily would have, just it would have turned out better than ... what happened here

Ha, not doubting your persuasiveness, but I can't imagine an argument for hiplop scum that would have swayed me from the empirical evidence in the thread showing one of mollie or hawk had to be scum.

And, sure, it would have been a better result, but it would have been a better result if I had actually played. Or if hiplop and mollie had played worse. This isn't all you. I mean, I understand how it can feel that way, I just hammered town in lylo in a game where myself and my hydra partner spent 70k+ words discussing and analyzing the game. It sucks to actually try and have it not work out, but you can't take all the blame on yourself. There are other people in this game too, and way too many moving parts, to beat yourself up over the outcome.

[Cerberus v666]

^mastina knows me too well. if someone explicitly says they're gonna do something in *a few hours* or *later*, I wait regardless of my read on them.

I think the scum claim was the right move tbh.

The scum claim was absolutely the right move overall, and almost definitely the best shot at having a chance to win for your faction, I'm just not a fan of the timing.

[Cerberus v666]

that is predicated on that scum will agree to kill each other and somehow I don't see that happening.

It's a prisoner's dilemma -- scum can only win if they are alive and the other scum is dead, which they have to pseudo-cooperate to get a chance at

If scum both shoot at town, they draw (I really am not a huge fan of the 'nobody wins' state and probably would've called it a half-win for you both) if they both shoot each other, town wins.

Scum has to correctly figure out if the other team is going to go for a draw or a full win

if town helped the other team by lynching my partner in mylo there is no way I wld not be shooting town. am I unusual in feeling that way?

but it wld have been interesting to have seen it drawn out from that perspective and to have seen how ultimately it wld have played out.

It's not optimal play for you to shoot town there. By shooting town, you guarantee that the best you can do is tie, or end up in a king maker situation (if you both shot the same town player) with the last town player determining which scum team wins (hint: it's more likely to be the team that stopped them from outright losing the day before). By shooting at the other scum, you change your options from tie/lose to win/lose, which is a strictly superior set of possibilities, and it doesn't risk both shooting the same person.

So, on an emotional level, maybe you kill town....but that isn't the correct play, unless you KNOW the other person well enough to be 100% certain you know what they'll do.

[Cerberus v666]

Jailkeep, not roleblock. She couldn't have stopped his kill and had hers still resolve. The end result is a draw.