Mini 1723: Town of Helen Day 4

[SilverWolf]

@SW, why does PB asking about your meta make you want to lynch him?

Because he's setting us up as scum together using no logic at all. Plus, I laid out a case in 585.

And his catch up's are not really much of anything except surface level reads and analysis that scum could easily do.

But I'm more than happy to answer his ridiculous question about if we are bussing each other or not Titus.

PB-The answer is no. I'm town. You want meta examples of how I treat my buddies as scum? OK

The only time I have bussed and lynched my scum buddies is when they were so scummy, I had no choice. I am of the firm belief that you treat your buddies like you do any other player and read them like you would anybody else. So if they are scummy, you call them out on it. If they look town, townread them. Do not do anything preplanned regarding how you treat each other. Because that looks fake.

I was bussed at the end of 185 because the VCA was so damning it had to be done. I also had a shitty fakeclaim out that I didn't think through well enough. I was a little annoyed at first until Egg explained it to me and then I was fine with it because we had an endgame in mind that made sense, even if it didn't work that time.

Mafia Lottery ( a mini theme run by ika)-Mathblade and I bussed and lynched Heartless. We won that game.

What I like to do as scum is what I did in my just recently finished newbie game 1642 where I called my scumbuddy scum for most of the day after he voted me for something stupid and took it back for an even lamer reason. I just said he was scum with one of the townies in the game and that the townie was scummier and I wanted the townie lynched first. The townie got lynched first and that ended the game.

I did the exact same thing in 1554. It worked the same way that time too because both times we kept a scummy townie around to take the fall in lylo.

So there's some meta on how I treat my buddies or how I've been treated.

So what's your point again? I forgot.

[SilverWolf]

Like, What is this shit? GL is leaning scum. Does he say why? Rob is an easy fucking townread and any scum worth their salt would townread Rob. Ari, BFD he's a miller. Titus and I share an alignment-OK, that's dumb. Boon's lurking-tells us nothing about what the thinks of Boon. Wgeurts read is WTF? Heiri or however you type it is not enough to go on but maybe town.

These reads are crap and scummy.

My current reads are:

Rob13 -- town

GL -- leaning scum

Aristophanes -- nullish townish

SW & Titus -- share an alignment (don't know what it is yet, but)

Boon -- lurky lurky Boon

Vedith -- prob town

gogurts -- just the fact that he's in the game makes me want to call him scum. However, the rational part of me reminds me that I haven't even read his non-hydra posts yet. But I bet he's scum anyway.

Heieireieioama -- town? I think there isn't enough to go on yet


P-Edit: Not lining up lynches, just stating potential probable relational tells. I know they're mostly worthless, but I just mention them for future reference.

[Titus]

@SW, Your case is opportunistic. You bamboozled Rob by recycling what I already said in 585. I already said PB broke his promises before. Your push now, nitpicking and being defensive, pings as if you're wanting to keep PB at the forefront.

Asking about typical behavior as scum is fair game.

You railed about me and Ari being scum together, fitting the facts to that. You haven't called that behavior out from Vedith (I think). Now, this associative behavior is a problem from PB?

You've moaned about PB chaining lynches, when he hasn't placed a vote.

[SilverWolf]

And I find it interesting how you were pushing PB scum and now have a problem when I do it.

I voted him, gave a reason, he shows up and starts scumposting, I elaborate my reasons, you have a problem with it.

OK, here's how it works Titus.

You tell me why I am wrong or you tell me why PB is town. If it makes sense, I reconsider. Otherwise I'm happy with my vote.

[Titus]

@SW, I do. It looks like a ploy to save wgeurts.

You haven't really done anything but pounce on his posting. You're trying to argue he was scared by 585 but Rob and I had already wagoned him (me for the reasons in 585). So the argument that PB was scared and started posting in response to your vote is absurd.

Now tell me, why you would try to revive a dead wagon with the same reasons rather than join a wagon on your scumread?

[Rob14]

My positive opinion of the content of 585 is his agreeing with me on the earlier posts, not this "he didn't show up when he said he would" nonsense. That's not even a scum tell. The actively avoiding early discussion is.

And it's not a post I've town-read. I have a lean town read on SW for other reasons (mostly gut, honestly)

[Rob14]

Oh, wgeurts is going down, make no mistake about that, but PB is the more obvious scum on day 1.

[SilverWolf]

What in the world does wgeurts have to do with anything?

Way to defend someone you were scumreading earlier.

PB is not a dead wagon. That wagon never happened. I'd like it to now.

I told you I find him scummy and said why.

You are bringing Wgeurts into it. Last I checked I had Wgeurts as a scumread but PB looks like obvscum to me and I can only vote for one person at a time.

[Titus]

@Rob13, Breaking promises is scummy but SW's hypocrisy bothers me. His breaking of the promises shows he's avoiding discussion.

Not showing up and providing as promised shows a self a consciousness that lurking alone doesn't. The promise is exactly what makes it scummy.

Yet, SW's behavior and opportunism makes me go wtf. It just reads wrong.

You remember that discussion we had on transparency Rob and selective pushes Rob. SW's ISO is exactly what I am talking about.

[Titus]

What in the world does wgeurts have to do with anything?

Way to defend someone you were scumreading earlier.

PB is not a dead wagon. That wagon never happened. I'd like it to now.

I told you I find him scummy and said why.

You are bringing Wgeurts into it. Last I checked I had Wgeurts as a scumread but PB looks like obvscum to me and I can only vote for one person at a time.

That's the issue I have. You have one vote. There's a wagon on your scumread (wgeurts). Rather than join, you revive PB. Right after Rob says wgeurts might go Day 1.

[SilverWolf]

What? Rob is voting PB, not wgeurts. Who says I won't vote for wgeurts? Why can't I push someone I'm scumreading harder?

What is your problem with this Titus considering you were also scumreading PB?

[Rob14]

We have 2 weeks. I don't see the rush to have a massive wagon leading to a lynch.

[Titus]

Your hypocrisy in argument regarding his recent posting, your revival of PB. I was there for days. Rob and I pushed hard for it. It was a dead wagon. Now you're just trying to kill wgeurts wagon. If you felt PB was scum, you would have jumped on sooner.

Look through your ISO can we tell if associative reads are bad (only for PB but not you or Vedith), quick fast reads are bad (only for PB, and that was in response to my question of course they aren't fleshed, they are gut), asking for meta is wrong (only for PB, not Rob when he's asked us multiple times).

You get defensive and jump down the throat of anyone accusing you as scum. You have two sets of standards. One for you and one for everyone else.

That hypocrisy is why you've made a PB wagon wholly unappetizing.

[SilverWolf]

I called out Vedith at least a couple times now for his play so that argument holds no water. I was scumreading Ari harder when you were pushing PB and he barely posted anything but I distinctly remember saying I would vote for him. I am not trying to kill a wgeurts wagon no matter how much you say I am. I still have a scumread on that spot. I jump down PB's throat for his associatives because he's trying to set up numerous people as scum together which I don't like. PB needs a lot more pressure. I went through his ISO because he's one of the people I'm unsure of, like I already said and I didn't like it.

Listen, you can disagree with my read but don't shoot it down. Let other people comment on it and see what they think.

[Titus]

@SW, Why are you scumreading wgeurts? Why does the PB wagon trump?

[SilverWolf]

Titus-You've mentioned looking at my ISO. Are you really reading it?

I'm willing to vote for PB. He was a complete lurksack as scum in that game. He did end up replacing out eventually and I stopped following the game closely after I replaced. Especially after Titus was lynched which was all my fault but that's neither here nor there.

@Hieirama-Why is PB town to you? Do you have experience with him that shows this is his town play cuz even in the town games I played with him he was more active then this, if overall not very active.

Could be RL related since I haven't seen him onsite lately.

Here's where I said I'd vote for PB.

I don't know honestly. I don't know the heads so I don't know if they have even been around the site independently or not. They did seem to back off after you called them out for possibly manipulating me. Although they seemed to believe you were the one manipulating me. It's tough because they said they have meta with both of us and I don't know who they are and there's 3 of them so I don't really know how to read them.

I just think they are scummy in general for trolling, reads with no reasoning, and no interest in game solving that I've seen, plus they are kind of lurking now on top of it.

I also need to rethink my stance on Vedith because tunneling, sitting on a wagon that isn't going anywhere is a good way to look like you are scumhunting when you are not.

Both of these are assuming I have a solid townread on you and unfortunately I do not. My scumread on you has weakened considerably but that's about it. I can't townread you yet.

My current thoughts are 20x100 is scummy and could be scum.

Vedith has not done much outside of tunneling you which looked town at first because she was pushing her scumreads but now it just looks like tunneling with no purpose which is becoming scummy to me.

In contrast to this, Ari laid out a case and GL laid out a case. Both of these cases make sense to me.

My comments on your alignment are, if I strongly though you were scum, I'd be more supportive of other scumreads on you. But I've reassessed. Ari reassessed his read on me. Others have as well. Town should be willing to re-look at their reads.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense. I'm heavily distracted with RL right now. Might have to come back to this later or tomorrow.

pedit: This is in answer to Titus's question at me.

Here's my comments on wgeurts-20x100-then my recent comments on PB are there for all to see as well.

So what don't you understand?

[Titus]

@SW, I wanted you to say why you voted PB despite wgeurts scummy behavior? Why the sudden shift?

Quoting your ISO doesn't answer that.

[SilverWolf]

You asked me why I was scumreading wgeurts and why I am pushing PB harder and also mentioned I didn't support PB when you were pushing it and said I was being hypocritical in regards to Vedith so those quotes answer all your questions on that plus my recent quotes about PB.

You are just trying to discredit everything I do this game and you've been doing it since the beginning of the game.

I think you just really want to see me as scum or you are scum who doesn't like that most people have adjusted their read on me to town now.

I already answered why PB is scummier to me. Just read my case on him.

It sucks you shot it down right away before anyone else but Rob (who liked it) could respond,

Anyway, I'm going to bed. If you have any further questions @me and I'll answer them in the morning or after work.

[SilverWolf]

Like, it's actually really bothering me how I laid out a valid case on PB and explained the problems I have with him. Rob agree'd with it via his comments here. You immediately jump in and discredit me right away. And this isn't the first time you've done this, this game Titus. You've discredited and belittled my opinion more than once. Now you are twisting things around to say I'm protecting wgeurts or am hypocritical and have a double standard. All this just kind of deflates the case I have and when anyone else reads it, they are going to see your comments and doubt me.

[pistachi0n]

VOTE: wgeurts

I don't like that he hasn't placed a vote. I don't like 567 where he excuses himself from the game by saying he's going to work on keeping records and building up associatives. I don't like him wanting a flavor claim. I wasn't a huge fan of 20x100 either.

[Titus]

@SW, I have disagreed but not belittled. You are more focused on perception than truth. Facts will prove or disprove. You and I both know we don't lie. If people agree with you, he'll be lynched. If people agree with me, 20 will be lynched. If people agree with neither, someone else will be lynched. We reasses as the game goes on. It's not important to be perceived as right but try to be right. Stop worrying about your perception and how others are perceived and stick to the facts.

Perception is not what is important. Stop acting like perception is. Facts are. Perception is a tool to argue them.

[Boonskiies]

Wg's town.

[wgeurts]

So why was your hydra so spammy Wgeurts? Was any of that you? Was there a point to it?

If everyone thinks flavor claiming is o.k. I have no problem with that.

Those less spammy posts were mine as you may now see. Though I'll admit to once asking how titus' liked her avocados as it made me laugh.

And in reaction to Aristo's post 574: I'm no longer so sure of you being scum due to your miller claim made so early on in the game. I've seen scum fake claim millers before (BBmolla) early in day 1 and usually the best way to resolve it is to wait and see what extra information we get. If we track you targeting somebody, you're up for the chop-block. If something else dodgy happens we'll probably end up lynching you.
However if those things don't happen we'll have to just work around them and read you as we read any other. You're not today's lynch as we may get a piece of information later which could indicate your alignment to a certain degree of certainty. However:

Mod, do you provide your players with fake-claims? And if so is it on request or provided with the role-pm?

As for what strikes me off with vedith? I don't know is the honest answer, gut is probably it. I'm just not town reading her/him and it's also the weakest scum read of all the four mentioned.

Now in response to Titus' 579;
If you had read the post before that you would of seen five town reads listed and I'm pretty sure vedith isn't one of them as I literally listed her/him as possible scum in the quote you quoted.
Let me restate them: Rob, SW, GL, Pistach and Boon.

As for your second set of questions:
1. I have no honest feelings towards it as the wagon is probably justified as the play from this slot has been awful.
2. It didn't, I finally had time and had been too busy to follow the game for two days and expected my partner to take over. He didn't so I replaced in and started my catch-up from that point.

Also I don't really find saying you may vote someone and then going for someone else scummy. To start off with the point you make against SW is in essence a pre-flip associative which is also in essence: bad/weak. Call me her partner but when I get lynched my flip will say otherwise.
It also makes sense not to go for me just yet and the slot has started producing content and reads on it may now change. Otherwise I'd expect to be dead by now.

Prolapsed Brain's posts don't really change the read on him though, they feel empty.

@wgeurts: Relational tells only work Day 2. Looking for them Day 1 is kind of silly. You need flips for relational tells to mean anything. Don't fall into the trap of saying "I think X is scum, and X could be scum with Y, so Y is scum." Doing that will cause all your reads to collapse and be useless if X flips town. Alternatively, you could be scum making excuses for not scum-hunting right now. What can you tell us so far about independent reads you have (meaning no relational bullshit)? And no, "I'm focusing on something that becomes helpful Day 2" is not a valid excuse, since even if you plan to focus on that when it's useful, you can still do something that's useful now.

Isn't this original flavor? What's the point of a flavor claim other than to rolefish?

I googled my role name and found nothing, I doubt there's a link between name and role which can be figure out. Hence I claimed flavour as some games the mod doesn't setup the flavour well enough to withstand claiming.

As for the associative/relational tells, if you look at the post again I said I'm noting them down to use later when we have flips. As will I use VCA when we have flips. There's a reason I said I don't think I'm going to be terribly useful this day. I know using this stuff before points is bad play and often damaging for the town.

Also pistach, I was asleep.

[wgeurts]

Before flips stupid auto correct.
Anyway, VOTE: Titus
Will explain my case later.

[GuiltyLion]

there's a lot to catch-up on in this game, I just caught up on my two other games, and I don't think I have the energy at the moment to give this game a fair response/update. So I promise that I will dedicate my time to this by EOD Friday. I might have updated reads by tomorrow but I'm working and then going out that evening so I won't be able to post a bunch of huge walls or anything. For now, trying to digest the miller claim, it seems plausible so I'm going to

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