Open 614: Diffusion of Power (THE TOWN WINS!)

[Kop]

VOTE: Kop

For information (and for policy )

Also - we're town!

-Frog

VOTE: TimHoward

For being scum in the last game.

[Kop]

I agree with texcat. We don't want to be doing scum work for them and giving them a better picture where to aim there shot.

The whole back and forth between dav and ika did nothing for me. It served no real purpose and can't even negate a point they were aiming to achieve.

But I'm not in with the cop role claiming. Come out day two with your result as you are a VT pretty much after that. Or even better don't reveal unless that person is getting attention on them that looks like the target for that day.

[Kop]

I don't like the whole gambit from Alpha. If your going to make a gambit, you would do it with a role that is actually in the game (according to P1). But I don't like how KT has reacted to it, somethings not right and I can't detract whether that is a town reaction or a scum caught out reaction.

The reads he has put out in #136, Dav and Ika reasons are almost identical. It just seemingly put together very quickly, without any real thoughts put behind it. It's easy to say Ika is town gives good thoughts, Dav is actively posting, doesn't give us any reason to believe those reads are genuine. He has a scum read on Alpha, but that isn't the same viewpoint from post #83

Post #142, you were going to be away for a while, what were you expecting to change, that would make you change your mind about your vote?

[Kop]

Here is what I am up too.

Flow Alpha

He has pretty much tunnelled KT pretty hard with his gambit, I said that if you were going to make a gambit, you would do it with a role that is in the game (according to P1). But to be honest, reading more into it, I think it's a reaction test more than anything, to see how KT reacts to it under pressure, but I think that is coming from a town mindset in order to catch scum. I seriously don't think Scum would announce themselves day one. But thinking more about it, is he hoping that the cop for N1 would investigate him in order to keep attention of his partners if he isn't the day one lynch? And then his lynch the next day would allow them to go about without any attention, as the focus is on him?

I am having a hard time determining whether he is town, or scum. Because it could come from both mindsets in the way he has approached this game.

Davesto

I have re-read, that whole scenario with Ika, and I for the life of me, can't determine what the point he was aiming for. Banter? That's the only thing that I can gain from that showdown. Since then, he hasn't engaged a great deal with anyone. He opposes Varsoons Idea, but I can see a positive in that plan to be honest. Whilst it only being the one positive in that idea, it's still not a full on bad idea.

White Lion

I am leaning town, because he is genuinely trying to figure out the game, and is prodding the stick in order to engage reactions, and to figure out stuff. Scum would be happy to sit back and allow people to do the work, at this stage anyway. I still don't get what these hydras are all about. I have tried to work it out and what the general purpose of them are, but I am as thick as pig shit so it is understandable that I can't fathom what they are all about.

Tim Howard

Can we just lynch him for having the name Tim Howard, and playing for a rival team? Still Liverpool are the better team on the Mersey.

I am happy that this slot is town. From his posts I am getting strong town vibes. But then again I got the same in the previous two games I played and he was scum both times. Seriously, this game the nature of his posts are different from both of those games. Town.

KT

I have already expressed my feelings. What I did look back is when he roleclaimed, he roleclaimed at L-3. Does this tell me more about his claim looking more into it? Could this be an whole idea to draw out the real doctor if he is lying about it? The whole reaction to the gambit played by Alpha was just very poor. Town reaction or scum caught out reaction? The whole reaction stinks of the latter to be totally honest, the day cop role isn't stated on P1 so I wouldn't have even entertained Alpha on that gambit alone.

Texcat

Two of his four posts are coming from a town mindset but could easily be faked in order to just pop his name into the game, and look like he is thinking about the game. I am pretty much null on cat, until more posts are put into the game.

Panopticon

#34 I do see bad points in this idea, but I do see some good points. The way I would suggest doing it, is if we are going down this route, is only have the cop for that night claim, and the doctor can protect him, then scum would just generally have to shoot somewhereelse. Instead of keeping it quiet and there is a chance that scum, could hit the cop for that night, the cop claiming gives the doctor a person to protect, scum could easily claim that cop slot, yes, but I think we would see who is telling the truth dependant on the person who they named is lynched.

I think the whole idea needs to be discussed by everyone and come to some sort of agreement of how we would move forward on this idea.

Wanderer

I don't have a great deal to say about Wanderer, there is a few posts in there that is giving me town vibes, but that is about it.

AJ

Not getting anything from his posts.

Who would I want to lynch out of there? I'd be going for KT, Davsto, and Alpha (depending on scenarios)

@Mod Can we prod Panopticon

[Kop]

I can see a positive in that plan to be honest. Whilst it only being the one positive in that idea, it's still not a full on bad idea.

Okay, let me break up the problem with Varsoon's plan.

It results in more Doctors claiming. The problem with knowing who is a Doctor? The Mafia are able to narrow down who is and isn't a Cop. Since these Docs are 1-Shot, they're completely useless the night after their protect. Thus, if they claim before the night they can protect, the Mafia know to leave them because killing them doesn't affect their protect, and after that night they're useless. This will result in an endgame of just Mafia and Doctors, as the Mafia have narrowed down who all the Cops are (they know the Cop/Doctor ratio) and killed them all. By not claiming, we will likely have a mix of Mafia/Doctors/Cops in the endgame. We can use the fact it's 4-6 of each to our advantage there, for a start. Letting the mafia know who all the Cops/Doctors are allows them to bend the endgame to what they want, rather than forcing it to be random.

But you could have the cop of that night claim but not the doctor. That doctor can remain anonymous. If one or more cop claims that night and the real cop dies then it would point that the other is scum as town would have zero reason to claim falsely.

[Kop]

Ahhh unless the x night role isn't revealed in the revealing Upon a death, it wouldn't prove who is telling the truth. Am I correct in assuming that is the case?

[Kop]

But then again why would x cop claim the wrong night.

I'm over thinking this too much.

[Kop]

I can see a positive in that plan to be honest. Whilst it only being the one positive in that idea, it's still not a full on bad idea.

Okay, let me break up the problem with Varsoon's plan.

It results in more Doctors claiming. The problem with knowing who is a Doctor? The Mafia are able to narrow down who is and isn't a Cop. Since these Docs are 1-Shot, they're completely useless the night after their protect. Thus, if they claim before the night they can protect, the Mafia know to leave them because killing them doesn't affect their protect, and after that night they're useless. This will result in an endgame of just Mafia and Doctors, as the Mafia have narrowed down who all the Cops are (they know the Cop/Doctor ratio) and killed them all. By not claiming, we will likely have a mix of Mafia/Doctors/Cops in the endgame. We can use the fact it's 4-6 of each to our advantage there, for a start. Letting the mafia know who all the Cops/Doctors are allows them to bend the endgame to what they want, rather than forcing it to be random.

But you could have the cop of that night claim but not the doctor. That doctor can remain anonymous. If one or more cop claims that night and the real cop dies then it would point that the other is scum as town would have zero reason to claim falsely.

Back to this.

@davsto would this be a more viable plan?

[Kop]

I hate self voting. It is reverse physiology into making us think it's disgruntled town.

That same question has been asked twice it has yet to be answered.

UNVOTE: Howard

[Kop]

Pushed all the way through? I think that's kind of a new wrinkle for me, when we know it's a false claim and the lynch is still pushed. Generally, though, claiming cop guilty for fake claim is scum because in most cases town would claim day vig (reaction testing). Obviously doesn't apply here.

The whole lynch wasn't based fully around the fake claim, it was also based on KT's reaction to it. And the whole self voting didn't do himself any justice.

[Kop]

Just woke up for work. Will get to this once work is over with.

[Kop]

I don't see why my wagon would have scum. Why would scum vote other scum?

You what mate?

VOTE: Flow Alpha

[Kop]

I believe that is L-1.

[Kop]

I have some stuff to respond to from D1 so I'm going to get this out of the way first.

Post 78 stems from a town mindset. That's why kop is town.

Really? I got nothing but a big, fat null from 78 so, yeah, walk me through that?

Spoiler: Kop's reads

Here is what I am up too.

Davesto

I have re-read, that whole scenario with Ika, and I for the life of me, can't determine what the point he was aiming for. Banter? That's the only thing that I can gain from that showdown. Since then, he hasn't engaged a great deal with anyone. He opposes Varsoons Idea, but I can see a positive in that plan to be honest. Whilst it only being the one positive in that idea, it's still not a full on bad idea.

White Lion

I am leaning town, because he is genuinely trying to figure out the game, and is prodding the stick in order to engage reactions, and to figure out stuff. Scum would be happy to sit back and allow people to do the work, at this stage anyway.

KT

I have already expressed my feelings. What I did look back is when he roleclaimed, he roleclaimed at L-3. Does this tell me more about his claim looking more into it? Could this be an whole idea to draw out the real doctor if he is lying about it? The whole reaction to the gambit played by Alpha was just very poor. Town reaction or scum caught out reaction? The whole reaction stinks of the latter to be totally honest, the day cop role isn't stated on P1 so I wouldn't have even entertained Alpha on that gambit alone.

Panopticon

#34 I do see bad points in this idea, but I do see some good points. The way I would suggest doing it, is if we are going down this route, is only have the cop for that night claim, and the doctor can protect him, then scum would just generally have to shoot somewhereelse. Instead of keeping it quiet and there is a chance that scum, could hit the cop for that night, the cop claiming gives the doctor a person to protect, scum could easily claim that cop slot, yes, but I think we would see who is telling the truth dependant on the person who they named is lynched.

Wanderer

I don't have a great deal to say about Wanderer, there is a few posts in there that is giving me town vibes, but that is about it.

Who would I want to lynch out of there? I'd be going for KT, Davsto, and Alpha (depending on scenarios)

OK, I have spoilered all the reads I want to respond to.

You have Davsto as null, why is he an acceptable lynch and AJ is not?

I think your town read on WF is based on poor presumptions. It looks like you give 3 reasons for town reading WF, when actually, you have one just restated in different ways.

I'm confused as to why you thought KT's reaction was a scummy reaction when you said yourself it was a poor gambit as the role is quite clearly not present in this set-up. I'm not following your thought process here at all.

You give no read on Pano and instead choose to talk set-up spec; do you have a read?

Can you quote the posts from Wanderer that were giving you town vibes?

I think Kop looks town because he's willing to "make enemies" with his reads and the attention he's paid to the game looks like scumhunting rather than faking it.

I'm gonna VOTE: Davsto.

I think Kop's list was pretty poor and he does a good job of avoiding directly calling anyone scum - where is he 'making enemies'? Like, show me one read where you think 'Oh shit, Kop is about to get some backfire for that comment'.

Also, why Davsto?

~BBT

I put Davsto over AJ for the simple reason is, AJ had nothing notable in his ISO at the time, and Davsto was similar in his ISO. But with Davsto, he had a back and forth with Ika, that for the life of me can't see what purpose it had, other than making noise, and look like he's actively in the thread. Some posts that were made appearing to be looking for scum, just I don't know, gave me weird feelings. I just can't figure them out, or the purpose they served. That's why I put him over AJ, at the time.

KT's reaction for me struck me as scummy been caught. Even if I said it was a poor gambit, as I knew from reading page one there was no day cop so it couldn't even ring true. But the fact of how KT reacted, it didn't sit well because it was like newbie scum been caught out and quickly on the defence. At the time I felt if they were town (we know KT is town now), they should know that there is only doctors, or cops in this game, and all powers work at night, KT would or should have known that it was based on lies, and not reacted the way he did.

Here are the posts that gave me town vibes:

Spoiler:

There are 4-6 x-night cops and 4-6 x-night docs. We don't know what night each of them works, we don't know how many will work during the same night. We don't know if there are at all a cop and a doc working in the same night (they probably are, likely, but the point is that we can't be sure until we have flips)
Someone claiming N1-cop might have a N1-doc to protect them, but it weeds out the pool for scum. How big are the odds the N1-cop is going to actually hit scum with their ability? It's only going to get better later in the game, but if N1 claims now, scum will have a smaller pool of the more dangerous later-night-pr's.

I thought KT's response to Alpha's claim was pretty awkward. Like why would he vote and say he's probably going to change? Doesn't sound too convinced..

VOTE: KTthecreeper

That was an RVS-vote, we're out of RVS, why are you endorsing that vote? What's scummy about Kop?

PEdit: The might is there because it's too early to really tell but so far I am thinking ika could be town. The posts he made so far don't remind me of scum-ika.

.....

D1 final vote count

KTthecreeper

(7): Flow Alpha, Panopticon, White Fire, KTthecreeper, Wanderer-nl, Davsto, TimHoward

Davsto

(2): ika, Anatole Kuragin

Flow Alpha

(1): texcat

White Fire

(1): Aj The Epic

Not Voting

(2): davesaz, Kop

Flow Alpha -- I can see the fakeclaim being scum, mainly because it is so far out there. So far out there that many people would classify it as too scummy to be scum.

TimHoward used poor reasoning on the hammer post. Scum in this wagon position would get a free shot to hammer without ramifications, given ika is a notorious hammerer and had given intent.

Why did you choose to focus on Flow and us? I think there were plenty of poor votes on that wagon. This is your first substantial post in the game and it's seriously lacking.

[/quote]

You said there was plenty of poor votes on that wagon, why did you hammer him then? And the words you chose to say. It's either poor votes but I wanted to join, or I'm not going to hammer because there are poor votes on that wagon, I don't see the logic you used in your hammer. If you believed there was poor votes on that wagon, you had 3 days before the deadline to over look it, but you choose to hammer him instead? And you say your having it hard to follow my thought process....


As to where we are now, I am happy with the lynch of Flow today, his post that I quoted has basically said he is scum.

[Kop]

What lies? You basically just admitted your scum.

[Kop]

VOTE: Tim Howard

Simply for your gameplay late on day two. I just didn't understand your logic of not wanting to vote for someone who slipped up in the thread, and the basis of his (Flow) whole game plan day one. But yet your happy enough to hammer KT, with out a reason.

[Kop]

Kop, his decision to jump on and put to L-1 feels out of place (as well as his sudden unshakable belief that flow was scum off some 'scum claim' of a new player).

I didn't put Flow on L-1.

I read that post time and time again to see if I could see whether it was a newb mistake, or a slip that he didn't mean to post out, and it pointed towards the latter, with his day one antics all rolled into it. He knew he would be brought under suspicion for how he drove KT's wagon, and he would be questioned, all rolled into one, he made his slip. That was my take on it.

Ok cool. Kop's also been disengaged, which is a scumtell of his. He was scum in Delicious (on the other faction) and was disengaged until he had to be engaged.

In the 6-2-1 micro, Kop was very engaged as town.

I haven't even paid attention to Kop this game, which is why he's probably slipped under my radar...because of the low level of engagement from him.

VOTE: Kop

Ever since that 6-2-1 game, I've been disengaged in the games since participating in that one. I play mafia games over on another site, and I have been disengaged in town and scum over on that site.

Your post #407.

Pano voted for Flow Alpha.

[Kop]

I will get to this properly tomorrow. I've had a long day at work, and I've had a lot on my plate, personal life stuff, not had the best weekend

[Kop]

I read through the ISO, of Anatole, and there isn't a great deal there. I don't think he's ever been suspected yet, I think he would have been given a lot more hadn't Flow took over day one and two. It's kind of worrying that he has yet to attract any real attention because he just seems to pop up every now and again and disappears again, I even forgot he was a player in this game.

AK, what reads do you actually have?

[Kop]

I'd rather vote White Fire than TimHoward probably.

Honestly, I think the person who looks the worst right now is Anatole.
He was verbally against the Flow Alpha wagon, calling it lynchbait.
He went for a Davsto wagon for awhile and now we know Davsto is town.
He led a White Fire wagon, who is now practically confirmed as town.
He made a weak push and vote for me early, and I am confirmed to myself as town.
He hasn't been present at all today except to call out Wanderer's defense of Tim Howard (which is a flashwagon, imo).
He's been generally lurky all game.

This is the worst case in mafia history, that's how I feel about it.

Why would you prefer to vote for White fire, do you doubt AJ?

[Kop]

Prodded davesaz and White Fire, anyone may request a prod for Wanderer-nl and TimHoward.

Sorry about that.

Kop has felt town during Day 1 but that feeling declined while the game went on. I don't like that Kop is moving his attention away from TimHoward when a new lynchtarget is being proposed, but doesn't unvote or give any kind of opinion on TimHoward later. I get the idea he doesn't really believe TimHoward is scum, or I'd expect him to push on them instead of joining the push on Anatole.
Also:

Flow Alpha

He has pretty much tunnelled KT pretty hard with his gambit, I said that if you were going to make a gambit, you would do it with a role that is in the game (according to P1). But to be honest, reading more into it, I think it's a reaction test more than anything, to see how KT reacts to it under pressure, but I think that is coming from a town mindset in order to catch scum. I seriously don't think Scum would announce themselves day one. But thinking more about it, is he hoping that the cop for N1 would investigate him in order to keep attention of his partners if he isn't the day one lynch? And then his lynch the next day would allow them to go about without any attention, as the focus is on him?

I am having a hard time determining whether he is town, or scum. Because it could come from both mindsets in the way he has approached this game.

Stays on the fence about Alpha

really

hard. I also get the idea from this that Kop knows Alpha is going to flips scum. The way Kop voted Alpha on that scumslip to me also seemed like he knew Alpha was gonna flip scum.

Anatole hasn't been too active this game and has explained several times, and I don't believe he's intentionally lurking. I don't like how Anatole keeps shouting 'WIFOM' on cases lately, but other than that I can't really find anything scummy in his iso. He defended Alpha a little, but I did too, and TimHoward, of whom I now believe are town, did so too. I'm not going to lynch based on that.

VOTE: Kop (that's L-2)

I haven't pursued Tim Howard, as much as I should have, but to be fair, he has been on VLA, so even if I was to ask a question from the last post I made towards Tim, it wouldn't be answered till he was back from VLA, which I believe is today.

The post I made towards AK, was weak, I agree, not one of my better posts, to be fair. But that still doesn't mean that I have forgotten about Tim Howard, or where my vote is at. I'm not switching my vote to AK, or even going to jump on the wagon just yet simply as I would like to have a bit more of a discussion with TH, as I feel there is a few things that could be discussed still with TH. I have participated twice with TH, although it was with his Fro99er account which I believe was only him, there wasn't this hydra stuff.

In the games that I participated with him, in the delicious game, he wasn't fully engaged and pretty much flew under the radar the whole game. Up until, he saw an opening that he could pursue, that could really have bought him some credibility, that would have taken him to pretty much end of the game because he chased up on what would have been me flipping over scum in that game. I do however state here, that this game isn't the same game he is playing, simply because there is more than Fro99er playing, so I can't in general say this is his scum game, or that he is going to flip scum here either.

The 6.2.1 game, he was a lot more active in the thread, engaging with others, and pursuing paths, that had me town reading him pretty much all the way through the game, but I felt something wasn't right, I had a strong town read on SW in pretty much lylo, so I took a gamble, it didn't pay off as in effect it lost us the game, but it confirmed that I was wrong in town reading Fro99er, simply because he had me fooled with his game play throughout the game, in effect, blended so far in, it was hard to believe he was scum. (in my eyes).

Now from those games, I generally feel, it could be 50/50 that he could have me fooled again, in believing he is town, which is why I would rather keep my vote there, and have more of a discussion, his posts since the turn of the day, convinces me he is town, but I can't help but have that nagging feeling at the back of my mind.

But in turn with AK, I would like more participation with him, because he hasn't really engaged with anyone. He didn't town read Davesto, but he didn't entertain him with giving him the reasons why he didn't. He has countered arguements with WIFOM excuse, not entirely scum tells I agree, but if he is town, I think it would be a good idea, if we could hear his input into the game, even in the posts he makes, give us a case of what he believes, even if it's small.

Your point about myself being on the fence, I stated why I was on the fence in regarding to FA. I have seen gambits played from early on, it isn't alignment indicative. It was the reaction from KT, that did the deeds for day one. But it was always going to be the case that the attention was always going to go for FA, and I noticed the slip, it wasn't a case of what I believe was going to happen, it was a slip that needed rope. For all I know, that could have resulted in a town flip and he was merely pointing out something that shouldn't have really been a slip but more stating a point to what he had been thinking. I'd already stated where I was wanting to go, but scenarios were going to determine what paths I was going to go down. If KT flipped scum, I still think the scenario was going to boil down to FA, if KT flipped town which KT did, it was going to go to FA. It was going to go down the route for a trade, because of the day one game play from FA, the fact that the slip was there, and picked upon, the focus has been on that slip more than what he was really lynched for.

[Kop]

but scenarios were going to determine what paths I was going to go down.

Where's the town-motivation in that?
And how was Alpha always going to be a target of attention? If KT had flipped scum we would have liked the result of Alpha's gambit and probably spent a lot less time discussing it Day 2. The only reason in that case I can think of Alpha needing pressure is for claiming a role that isn't in the game, and if you really believed Alpha needed pressure for that, then why not do that yourself on Day 1 already? Now it just sounds like you knew KT was going to flip town.

The whole lynch wasn't based fully around the fake claim, it was also based on KT's reaction to it. And the whole self voting didn't do himself any justice.

If you really believed this, why weren't you on KT's wagon?
Actually, this is really annoying because you weren't that around much but also we had a quick hammer and you not being able to post anymore isn't unreasonable. Still, you were able to unvote TimHoward, why didn't you vote KT there?

No I didn't believe KT was going to flip town. I believe the gambit would have been a good thing had KT flipped scum, but for the life of me I don't like to believe things 100% what they are, it's probably different over here as I haven't really got a big history over on this website, but on another site, I have seen gambits that turned out to be early bussing, and I've totally ignored the whole of it because the person who flipped was scum, only to find out the end of the game once it's done that town read because of that gambit, happened to be scum.

Yes the reaction and the self voting didn't do any justice, logical to say now, but at the time it happens, it's one of those things that kinda threw my trail of thoughts. I unvoted Howard because I knew that was where my vote was and was going to type up what I had in my mind then but I got distracted from work and just posted that quick snid bit and was intending to finish where I left off, but by the time I got back, TH had already hammered. I could have voted KT, but at that time of unvote, I wasn't fully sure of the whole thing.

[Kop]

Not quickhammering whether I'm scum or town is decidedly pro-town.

not quickhammering yourself if you're scum is pro-town?

To be fair, I can see the point TH is stating. How can you not see that? Scum would self hammer, to remove themselves out of the game, so that town can't get any new information, they can use to go into the next day. It obviously doesn't help their partners because they are down a number, but then town can't force through more information from possible partners, or other users that they can use to draw possible connections, etc etc.

Not being good at early stages, isn't exactly a great reason to use for your early game play. I still wonder why you'd throw up that excuse considering, it is day three, what reads do you actually have at this stage? Your voting for Tim Howard, but yet you made a soft push towards Wanderer to see what you could conjure up. I'd like to see some more of your reads because up to now, you mentioned myself or Pano for the lynch, then moved onto Wanderer, and now your voting TH, you haven't engaged AJ at all, or even Fire a great deal since the turn of day 3.

[Kop]

I've asked Davesaz twice to explain his vote on Kop and he just ignores me. Does anyone understand it?

Yes. Kop originally stated that he never put Flow Alpha to L-1. I posted where he voted for flow alpha and the next post where he explicitly stated that vote was L-1.

Yeah I totally forgot all about me putting Flow on L-1.

[Kop]

Here is what I am up too.

Flow Alpha

He has pretty much tunnelled KT pretty hard with his gambit, I said that if you were going to make a gambit, you would do it with a role that is in the game (according to P1). But to be honest, reading more into it, I think it's a reaction test more than anything, to see how KT reacts to it under pressure, but I think that is coming from a town mindset in order to catch scum. I seriously don't think Scum would announce themselves day one. But thinking more about it, is he hoping that the cop for N1 would investigate him in order to keep attention of his partners if he isn't the day one lynch? And then his lynch the next day would allow them to go about without any attention, as the focus is on him?

I am having a hard time determining whether he is town, or scum. Because it could come from both mindsets in the way he has approached this game.

Who would I want to lynch out of there? I'd be going for KT, Davsto, and Alpha (depending on scenarios)

@Mod Can we prod Panopticon

How did you leave that second part Dav.

[Kop]

TOWN NIGHT-1 DOCTOR

saved myself obviously

correction: tried to save myself, was told by the mod I couldn't do that, then saved timhoward

This is bizarre.

1) You'd know your role. You wouldn't have to go back to look at it.
2) You claimed to have saved yourself even though you can't.
3) Even though you tried, you would have been told, and you would have said that first time round, you wouldn't need to correct yourself after already knowing the information.

[Kop]

If the Mafia PT gets released, you'll see that I actually pinned pretty much each cop.
Kop talked me out of killing Texcat, which also kinda lost us the game. :/

Yeah, I realised that mistake when flipped. I'm sorry that I left you in the lurch, wasn't around at the time of my lynch to even offer a defence.

Should have stuck with Texcat, kinda swang the game heavily towards town. Followed the game, since going out, and knew it was a monumental task to get it back.

Flow contributed heavily to our handicap, actually forgot he was a partner, because he never even posted in the scum PT. I should have lynched him day one, and rode the credit.

Good playing with you though.

Thanks to Tatsuya for modding. You never gave me the dead thread btw.

[Kop]

Thanks to Tatsuya for modding. You never gave me the dead thread btw.

Well, I already added you in the list but forgot to send you the PM! Sorry

Not to worry, it's not the end of the world.