Blitz 6: Normal! [Game Over]

[Aquanim]

VOTE: Kop

[Aquanim]

...I question how or if this is/isnt concerning.

Well, answer your own question. Are you concerned?

[Aquanim]

The question was more directed towards how concerned you are about the possible logic around it. As for me: Eh.

Random votes at the start of the game are typical on this site. Have you played elsewhere?

[Aquanim]

Yes. I suppose I am used to something more conservative and less random or "silly". All in goodness I suppose. Though, I am a sucker for analysis. How are you doing today/night?

Doing fine. It's afternoon here at the moment.

Which brings up another point, for everyone's attention.

(Obviously) I live in an Australian timezone and will frequently be asleep when American and European players are around. This is more of an issue in a blitz than in a usual game, so keep it in mind if you wish to talk with me. I recommend http://xkcd.com/1335/ for keeping track.

[Aquanim]

Hello friends! Except for you

VOTE: Soren

Vampires must be scum.

Seems legit

UNVOTE: Kop
VOTE: Soren

[Aquanim]

VOTE: Kop

A bit quick don't you think? Passiveness is a sign of observance and casual or cautious play, while it could lead to suspicion it can manage to keep one relatively safe at certain times, acting too quickly might draw attention. I question how or if this is/isnt concerning. Of course, it could all be for shits and giggles.

Kakashi not so sharp at Mafia is he.
VOTE: TheLhix

I presume this means you think there is a scum player's motivation behind this post.

Can you explain further?

[Aquanim]

pissed af.

>>> This sub human lhix <<<

is tilting me so hard (not the reason why I'm pissed).
...

Where on earth did this come from?

And soren said I was fucking around. What a goddamn joke. Soren must have read through the game it isn't that long. My town motivation behind posts directed at I forgot his name the person I shamelessly switched to should come across clear as a bell. I have been nothing but open about your criticism of my play. It might have been bad play but I stand by it. It is one of the reasons we're out of rvs. I look bad? soren stop fucking around and get better reads. I'm town as fuck.

I don't like that this comes in the third post Yakko's made since Soren's last post.

[Aquanim]

Sup farside.

Do you want to make an argument as to why I should vote itlepip?

[Aquanim]

There is something I don't understand.

Saying that your play was what you thought was normal and therefore not suspicious I find very suspicious.

This doesn't come off as a joke first off.
Second it really reads awkward as far as comment go.

Where did itlepip say this was a joke? The only reference I can find from itlepip to a joke is:

...
i was still in RVS, that was just a comment supposed to be taken lightly. It wasn't meant to be personnel.

Also how would I be able this early in the game to give an explanation of your sheeping, most likely it was just a joking RVS sheep, but if my vote was serious than an RVS vote is bad. You could be scum trying a sheeping strategy early but there isn't much evidence for that. There also could be some scum thing I did early that you guys are reacting to, but I have absolutely no idea what it is.

which I believe was suggesting Yakko's vote was a joke.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: To clarify, so far as I can tell #57 was a reference to this:

...
But, did I not give a logical explanation for it? As well, I was also told that plays such as this "sillyness" were common on this site. Essentially leading one to believe they are being uptight. So couldnt you say I am just adjusting to the room?

[Aquanim]

What didn't you like about it? And my 3 posts that you say indicate my mood leading up to post above. The only thing I am sorry about is potentially derailing the thread. I still stand by everything in post 112.

To me you are making it sound like soren said X then I said w x y and suddenly said z. Reality begs to differ. Which makes me think you're full shit for not voting me.

A few factors made me wonder whether that anger was genuine. Mostly those points - the insult directed at TheLhix seemed way out of proportion and it's not like Soren just said something to you that moment which caused you to flip out.

If I knew you were posing I'd vote you. Since I didn't know either way I gave you a poke. It suffices to say that I'm still not really interested in voting you.

[Aquanim]

The above about itlepip aside, I'm seeing much more throwing suspicion than looking for information in his posts so far (see #57 and #69 in particular).

Also this post:

Saying that your play was what you thought was normal and therefore not suspicious I find very suspicious.

This doesn't come off as a joke first off.
Second it really reads awkward as far as comment go.

Are you saying that once someone makes a post that isn't a joke they are banned from RVS and can no longer make joke posts?
Also since when is being awkward scummy?

reads as pretty defensive and concerned for somebody who keeps saying they are not worried by a 2-vote wagon.

UNVOTE: Soren
VOTE: itlepip

[Aquanim]

I think the point here is that there is a difference between a "subjective" read and a "gut" read. At least, in the common usage of those two concepts.

[Aquanim]

*continues to look into the distance waiting for a direct answer from yakko*

In the meantime, do you have an opinion on this interaction between Nosferatu and itlepip? Or itlepip in general?

[Aquanim]

ಠ_ಠ mfw selfvote

Nosferatu, can you tone down the personal attacks some? Scumread or not, it doesn't hurt to show some respect.

[Aquanim]

By my count:

[4] itlepip ~ farside22, hi im Yakko, Aquanim, itlepip (L-3)
[1] hi im Yakko ~ Nosferatu
[1] Malakittens ~ Titus
[1] pisskop ~ Kop
[1] TheLhix ~ Soren

[5] Not Voting ~ LoHa, Malakittens, pisskop, TheLhix, pignash

[Aquanim]

Townreading Yaako, Mala, Farside and Soren.
...

You're townreading Mala? For what?

[Aquanim]

Totes here.

This game needs out of RVS.

Are you up to date?

[Aquanim]

...
Without two wagons, a game is in RVS to me. I read best by relationships.

I wouldn't term it RVS but I do understand your point.

[Aquanim]

As to pignash, I can at least appreciate why one could townread Farside and Yakko but the townreads on Mala and Soren seemed very premature to me.

Of course, handing out a bunch of townreads at this early stage isn't best practice in general.

@pignash

: I'd like to see an updated read on TheLhix after your conversation with him.

[Aquanim]

...
you resemble the last mini normal.

Is this referring to NY 190? (Technically a large, but not a big one.) Without really good cause I don't want to read ~130 pages of game to get context for pignash replacing in on page ~120, and I have some reservations about the meta value of such a late replace in any event.

Can you explain the similarity between his play there and here?

[Aquanim]

I'm going to be hating you this game.

[Aquanim]

As regards Nosferatu:

Nice face. Are you going anywhere with that (exchange with itlepip) Nosferatu?

I was probably going to vote him because he lied about why he read farside as town. But I wanted him to say it~

into no vote does not read like a town-motivated thing to me.

The whole conversation reads like Nosferatu trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, I agree. The abuse in #148 really is over the top.

UNVOTE: itlepip
VOTE: Nosferatu

Nosferatu, whenever we're both in the thread, we need to have a talk.

[Aquanim]

I've read the thread and can't recall a single alignment indicative argument, so we're still in-between RVS and what comes next.

What are the things you find unconvincing about the arguments I've made so far? For reference:

Spoiler:

The above about itlepip aside, I'm seeing much more throwing suspicion than looking for information in his posts so far (see #57 and #69 in particular).

Also this post:

Saying that your play was what you thought was normal and therefore not suspicious I find very suspicious.

This doesn't come off as a joke first off.
Second it really reads awkward as far as comment go.

Are you saying that once someone makes a post that isn't a joke they are banned from RVS and can no longer make joke posts?
Also since when is being awkward scummy?

reads as pretty defensive and concerned for somebody who keeps saying they are not worried by a 2-vote wagon.

UNVOTE: Soren
VOTE: itlepip

As regards Nosferatu:

Nice face. Are you going anywhere with that (exchange with itlepip) Nosferatu?

I was probably going to vote him because he lied about why he read farside as town. But I wanted him to say it~

into no vote does not read like a town-motivated thing to me.

The whole conversation reads like Nosferatu trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, I agree. The abuse in #148 really is over the top.

UNVOTE: itlepip
VOTE: Nosferatu

Nosferatu, whenever we're both in the thread, we need to have a talk.

Pip's interactions don't seem forced or otherwise scummy to me and anyone exaggerating the alignment indication of the selfvote looks fishy.

Who is exaggerating the impact of the self-vote?

If theLhix is scum his talkative style will reveal a scumslip sooner or later. Same for gung-ho farside.

My feeling also, on both counts. Likely more subtle than a straight-up "scumslip", mind you.

[Aquanim]

@TheLhix

: Can I interest you in a vote for Nosferatu based on the points in #178?

[Aquanim]

@TheLhix

: Can I interest you in a vote for Nosferatu based on the points in #178?

Possibly. I have to go for a few hours, so I don't want to make a play like that then be gone. I see the point as for the same reason I originally was wary of Soren, but it would seem it might be a bit heavier this time. I will think over it and come back later. Seem fair?

I probably won't be here when you get back, but sure. Do get around to it though, the day's ticking.

[Aquanim]

What are the things you find unconvincing about the arguments I've made so far?

Defensiveness despite claiming to be chill is null because self-preservation is null. Is there another basis for your conclusion?

There was the observation that he seems more interested in saying things are scummy than trying to generate more information (the latter being the most important thing for a townie in the early stages of the game IMO).

What about Nosferatu?

Also, why are you voting Titus?

[Aquanim]

As regards Nosferatu:

Nice face. Are you going anywhere with that (exchange with itlepip) Nosferatu?

I was probably going to vote him because he lied about why he read farside as town. But I wanted him to say it~

into no vote does not read like a town-motivated thing to me.

The whole conversation reads like Nosferatu trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, I agree. The abuse in #148 really is over the top.

UNVOTE: itlepip
VOTE: Nosferatu

Nosferatu, whenever we're both in the thread, we need to have a talk.

sure, about what?

Why, after your interaction with itlepip, did you not vote him as you said you intended to?

[Aquanim]

I have one more question to ask, in addition to that.

@LoHa

: If you think there have been no alignment indicative arguments to date, are you concerned that the itlepip wagon has been at L-2?

[Aquanim]

...
@aqua why are you town reading lhix after he said he has no interest in moving the game forward? i.e. Self proclaimed wanting to be null.

I don't have much of a townread on Lhix at all. What I do have is an assessment that the metgame Lhix learned to play in is very different to ours.

If I were to make a case on him this game I'd prefer it to be on the basis of whatever content he posts and his interactions with other slots, rather than his style. I agree his style isn't working out very usefully for town in the context of this site.

[Aquanim]

I don't find what I did to be abuse looking at it. He repeatedly ignored what I was saying and dodged a very simple question multiple times. That doesn't make it not abuse, but he very simply didn't read. Even in his self-vote (which I am still musing over) he didn't read, he just quit.
...

In my book this is abuse, and in particular HIGHLY unlikely to provoke a courteous or useful response from anyone you say it to:

...
my god you savage, can you comprehend human language?
...

---//---

He self-voted and I had no idea what the fuck that meant. If he had continued with the same behaviour I would have voted him, but he just up and quit. Trying to think about the town motivation behind self-voting, have to make sure he's not VI obviously, but I really can't think of anything. It just perturbs me and I don't feel comfortable voting him with that over me.

Why didn't you vote before he self-voted? In particular at #141. "I wanted him to admit he was lying to me" seems like an odd condition - what kind of scum admits they're lying to you?

[Aquanim]

He self-voted and I had no idea what the fuck that meant. If he had continued with the same behaviour I would have voted him, but he just up and quit. Trying to think about the town motivation behind self-voting, have to make sure he's not VI obviously, but I really can't think of anything. It just perturbs me and I don't feel comfortable voting him with that over me.

Why didn't you vote before he self-voted? In particular at #141. "I wanted him to admit he was lying to me" seems like an odd condition - what kind of scum admits they're lying to you?

uhh yeah, that's the thing, they don't. And whaddya know, pip didn't admit he lied. I N F E R.
...

I assume the inference I'm meant to draw from this is "itlepip did not admit he was lying to you, therefore he is scum".

Which brings me back to this point: if you had made that judgement at the time of that post,

why did you not vote for itlepip then

?

[Aquanim]

@farside

:

"I never said that I was voting LoHa for that one post, which is why I said also... But for me that post is the one I want clarified the most."

I think the statement itlepip is trying to make is that he said "also", not that he also said "but for me that post..." etc.

[3] LoHa ~ farside22, Soren, TheLhix

If scum is on me it's either Titus or TheLhix or both.

So all you are saying here is that farside and soren are town. Why do you think they are town and why did you phrase your read that way?

>>> Also <<<

VOTE: LoHa

I don't say you should necessarily not be voting him but I'd prefer it not to be on the basis of a misunderstanding.

[Aquanim]

...
Loha was agreeing me about game state, says nothing about me being scummy.

That's pretty damn clear.

Dunno if you've seen this post or not.

What are the things you find unconvincing about the arguments I've made so far?

Defensiveness despite claiming to be chill is null because self-preservation is null. Is there another basis for your conclusion?

There was the observation that he seems more interested in saying things are scummy than trying to generate more information (the latter being the most important thing for a townie in the early stages of the game IMO).

What about Nosferatu?

Also, why are you voting Titus?

As opposed to Nosferatu she hasn't done anything. I can see Nosferatu's push as newbie town's attempts at getting out of RVS.

Is there a reason why, despite agreeing with you about the current state of the game, LoHa could not as a townie be scumreading you for (at that stage) having made a handful of short posts?

One might call it hypocrisy based on the shortness of LoHa's own ISO but considering how little LoHa had done to date I think there was nobody he could scumread where that would not be true.

[Aquanim]

@pisskop

: If you're so unimpressed by everything that's been done so far this game, would you care to make a case of your own?

[Aquanim]

Aqua, Loha had fewer posts than me. He was lurking and prod dodging. He voted me after I suggested a counter to ipip. He provides no reason.

He was chainsawing to get ipip lynched. Pretty obvious to me. Ipip then voting Loha sealed that.


Ding, Nostaferu just coached Loha.

I'm aware he had fewer posts than you and was lurking and prod dodging. Just about any case on anyone he makes from that position is going to look hypocritical.

With all due respect, your counterwagon wasn't really very strong. (Counterwagons which are explicitly started for the purpose of being counterwagons do tend not to be.)

Unless you're saing LoHa is scum with Pignash (and I really don't like association cases on day 1) I don't think I really see the motive for a chainsaw.

The no reason with that vote does not impress me one bit, I agree with you that far.

The argument you're making in the second line is that Ipip voting Loha means that they're not scum together, right?

[Aquanim]

Where is all that coming from?

Wasnt my last comment approval over Far's Pip vote?

...Oh right, I read "With Respect To" as a typo'd "with" given the word before being mangled a bit, so I thought you were agreeing WITH pip, not ABOUT the case on him.

My bad.

[Aquanim]

Okay, you pass for now.

UNVOTE: Nosferatu

I'll vote for itlepip if it's needed for a lynch, when appropriate.

[Aquanim]

What do you mean they pass for now?

I mean the things I didn't like about Nosferatu's interaction with itlepip have been partly explained.

I don't townread Nos but I consider the explanation good enough that there are definitely better things to lynch today.

[Aquanim]

I'm thinking Titus is scum this game.

Wouldn't shock me.

[Aquanim]

What do you mean they pass for now?

I mean the things I didn't like about Nosferatu's interaction with itlepip have been partly explained.

I don't townread Nos but I consider the explanation good enough that there are definitely better things to lynch today.

which 3 people would you feel better lynching today?

Didn't have a particular three in mind... but I'd lynch itlepip, feel a bit bad about lynching Titus day 1 on the principle of not lynching experienced players day 1 but maybe do it anyway, and maybe lurker-lynch Kop and pignash.

[Aquanim]

I'm thinking Titus is scum this game.

Would titus scum create a counter wagon on a potentially easy lynch? Does this suggest pip+titus?

If pip isn't scum, it makes more sense from scum-Titus if there are already other scum on the pip wagon, and Titus was looking for somewhere innocuous to park her vote. As counterwagons go it was a bit half-assed.

[Aquanim]

...
Eh that sounds well reasoned bullshit. I mean I get what you're saying but why would scum titus bring attention to themselves creating a half assed counter wagon? Nah nah I'm thinking titus is town.

If itlepip is scum, or if itlepip is town but there were scum on his wagon already, what would you expect a scum-Titus to do in that situation?

Bear in mind that (IIRC) there were no other wagons of any description active at the time.

[Aquanim]

Vote: Aquanim

You're going to explain this, right?

[Aquanim]

...
Also not a fan of pisskops pings that seem to just be following the aqua-farside-yakko groupthink.

So far as I can see, Yakko has disagreed with me more often than not.

Also

@itlepip

: can you tell me why you didn't reply to the things I said about you with my vote in #126?

[Aquanim]

vote: Pip

Stop being dumb. Laho is scum.

What is your townread on Pip based on besides your scumread on LaHo?

[Aquanim]

...
I don't work like that. People start as town. Scummy actions (which ipip has none) do that.

Farside backing off Laho pings like a motherfucker, doubly so because she's voting the counter.

I found these posts by itlepip reflective of scum motivaion because they're pointing suspicion at other players but not really pressuring for more information in any way:

Spoiler:

Saying that your play was what you thought was normal and therefore not suspicious I find very suspicious.

Dear god I feel like I want 2 votes now

You have 2 with yakko sheeping you...
Was that vote in or out of RVS, cause I have no idea.

Dear god I feel like I want 2 votes now

You have 2 with yakko sheeping you...
Was that vote in or out of RVS, cause I have no idea.

You sound disgusted? Maybe I'm reading that wrong. Any particular reason you pointed it out but made zero attempts to figure out why I was sheeping? I like my vote more now.

i was still in RVS, that was just a comment supposed to be taken lightly. It wasn't meant to be personnel.

Also how would I be able this early in the game to give an explanation of your sheeping, most likely it was just a joking RVS sheep, but if my vote was serious than an RVS vote is bad. You could be scum trying a sheeping strategy early but there isn't much evidence for that. There also could be some scum thing I did early that you guys are reacting to, but I have absolutely no idea what it is.

Can you explain why you don't find that scummy?

[Aquanim]

Vote: Aquanim

You're going to explain this, right?

Because I am super scum

This isn't the time for jokes any more. Do you have a reason to think I am scum?

[Aquanim]

...
Not being worried about a 2-vote wagon doesn't mean you don't clarify reads on that wagon. Also the only difference is the titus read, and I meant that as the general consensus of the generally non-sus players, which would include yakko.

You're replying to it now, but why didn't you reply to it at the time?

[Aquanim]

...
Truth be told. When you asked me to sheep you against nos,

I would have preferred an opinion to a sheep.

and then the Yokka-Aqua scenario played out where he instantly countered didn't sit right with me. I figured it was trying to bait my own votes out according to your wish regardless,

>>> and the way Yokka and you keep going round and round after each pressuring encounter you pull seems very systematic. <<<

Yes, it does, doesn't it?

I am curious to know why it keeps happening myself.

Just felt like I needed to tell you ^-^ to avoid suspicion

Well, if you're voting me and you think I'm scum, you should be trying to convince other people to vote me with you. If you're not that confident that I'm scum, you should be trying to find out more or not be voting in the first place. Which is it?

[Aquanim]

...
Not being worried about a 2-vote wagon doesn't mean you don't clarify reads on that wagon. Also the only difference is the titus read, and I meant that as the general consensus of the generally non-sus players, which would include yakko.

You're replying to it now, but why didn't you reply to it at the time?

At first my vote was in fact a impulse, I felt something was wrong with what had occurred earlier but wanted to bide my time to formulate a logical response until I gathered my emotion response together.

...This wasn't a question to you, actually.

[Aquanim]

...
I don't work like that. People start as town. Scummy actions (which ipip has none) do that.

Farside backing off Laho pings like a motherfucker, doubly so because she's voting the counter.

I found these posts by itlepip reflective of scum motivaion because they're pointing suspicion at other players but not really pressuring for more information in any way:

Spoiler:

Saying that your play was what you thought was normal and therefore not suspicious I find very suspicious.

Dear god I feel like I want 2 votes now

You have 2 with yakko sheeping you...
Was that vote in or out of RVS, cause I have no idea.

Dear god I feel like I want 2 votes now

You have 2 with yakko sheeping you...
Was that vote in or out of RVS, cause I have no idea.

You sound disgusted? Maybe I'm reading that wrong. Any particular reason you pointed it out but made zero attempts to figure out why I was sheeping? I like my vote more now.

i was still in RVS, that was just a comment supposed to be taken lightly. It wasn't meant to be personnel.

Also how would I be able this early in the game to give an explanation of your sheeping, most likely it was just a joking RVS sheep, but if my vote was serious than an RVS vote is bad. You could be scum trying a sheeping strategy early but there isn't much evidence for that. There also could be some scum thing I did early that you guys are reacting to, but I have absolutely no idea what it is.

Can you explain why you don't find that scummy?

Cuz it's not. You can observe a pattern without asking a question. That's what I do as town.

Questions can easily be used to shape a conversation.

Pattern observation gets responses.

I don't think any of those posts were ever likely to result in interesting responses.

[Aquanim]

...
That's probably why you don't play that way. What you're highlighting is play style NOT scummy.

Okay, let's take one of these posts in particular.

Hey all!
I was bored so you all get me today.

Vote: thelhix

Yakko why are you joining the RVS bw instead of votive thelhix?

I just brought out the refreshments. Do you have a read as to why I am shady?

Going from serious to silly in 1.0 seconds.

Let's just say that your play reads fake.
You asked about the vote from the start and say there are other ways you play but all I see is silliness which doesn't really capture reads from anyone

But, did I not give a logical explanation for it? As well, I was also told that plays such as this "sillyness" were common on this site. Essentially leading one to believe they are being uptight. So couldnt you say I am just adjusting to the room?

Saying that your play was what you thought was normal and therefore not suspicious I find very suspicious.

What kind of response or information do you think that itlepip was hoping to get from this post? itlepip did not pursue this point at all, either.

[Aquanim]

Because making accusations about posts is how you get out of RVS. Obviously the game took a different turn and I never felt the need the readdress that awkward point.

Do you think TheLhix is suspicious now?

[Aquanim]

Do not turn this game into another Blitz 1, you two.

[Aquanim]

Whether an unflipped associative read has, in a single game, turned out to be right is not relevant to whether they are a good idea in general.

I am NOT talking about that game here and now, besides to say that I do not intend to let this game become a similar shitshow. If you want to justify your play there do it postgame.

[Aquanim]

That is directed at both of you. That game is over. Leave it and move on.

[Aquanim]

Do not turn this game into another Blitz 1, you two.

Listen this isn't the same at all.

Titus arguments are weak.
Look at her day 1 engagement vs this.
Asking questions there. Not asking them here.
Trying to figure motoves there.
Pushing weak reasoning here.
Not the same at all

If you want to make a meta argument I suppose I'm listening. It is true that Titus' engagement with Blitz 1 early in the game was greater IIRC. Not a scumclaim but it's a valid point.

What I am not interested in is either of you,

whether your assessment is correct or not

, justifying your play there or bitching about that town. This isn't the place for that, it's not relevant to this game, and all it will lead to is ill feeling we don't need.

[Aquanim]

What do I gotta do to get you to vote Laho Aquarius? Do the funky comadina?

*dances*

I'm thinking about LaHo. I don't townread him.

[Aquanim]

Aqua, what are your reads on everyone

I'm not interested in giving the lurkers a roadmap. Maybe later.

[Aquanim]

I have a question Titus.

If Farside doesn't want LoHa lynched and is instead pushing itlepip as a counterwagon, why did Farside start the LoHa wagon in the first place?

[Aquanim]

@Whoever asked

Farside did plenty of testing the waters before her vote.

You're missing the point. If Farside wants an itlepip lynch today and does not want a LoHa lynch, why would Farside "test the waters" for a LoHa vote?

[Aquanim]

Reading starting from #191... all of the "rumblings" about LoHa that I can see were the direct result of pressure from Farside.

Convince me, based on evidence in the thread, that Farside had good reason to expect the LoHa wagon would not take off, and you have a case.

Without that, there is simply no case.

[Aquanim]

You're starting from the right point, but seeing the word thing. Look at the word choice. Farside says lazy and weird, not scummy and provides an opportunity to explain.

I give people opportunity to explain themselves frequently. Not buying that one.

Town might use this to investigate but it functions even better to determine if she can or cannot get on the wagon.

There IS no wagon at that stage. Why would Farside be trying to work out if she can run a wagon on her buddy, when she could just... not, and sit on her reasonably popular Pip wagon?

A town likely votes Loha at 191.

I didn't vote LoHa based on what was in the thread at 191.

Second, why are you focusing more on Farside when I am pushing for Loha lynch?

Your Farside read makes very little sense and I am trying to work out whether you can possibly believe it as town.

[Aquanim]

That's not an answer to this, I don't think.

There IS no wagon at that stage. Why would Farside be trying to work out if she can run a wagon on her buddy, when she could just... not, and sit on her reasonably popular Pip wagon?

What is the actual point of that play? Considering how much pull Farside has in this thread there seems to me that there would be considerable risk of the wagon taking off. I simply don't buy it as a bus. Too little reward for far too much risk.

[Aquanim]

Again, why so focused on Farside when Loha must be flipped first for any of it to have a point?

Again, it's because I'm trying to work out whether your thought process comes from a townie.

Second, if Farside had as much "pull" as you state, why doesn't she say Loha is town? She doesn't. She calls my case weak, but never says he's town when inviting him. She doesn't say he's town when she's paranoid over him.

I don't call LoHa town either. Why do you think Farside should?

[Aquanim]

For that matter I doubt Farside (or anyone, in most games) could stop a wagon dead in its tracks simply through thread presence. It is far easier to start a wagon than to stop one.

[Aquanim]

Back in a while.

[Aquanim]

So..

I kinda don't want to vote farside.

I'm not really sure I feel about LoHa. Not really feeling a Itlepip scum here.

Soren is possibly town.

I'm not liking TheLhix nor titus/ :\

Yakko is prob town.

Not really liking Nosferatu either.

Rest idk.

Want to talk?

[Aquanim]

</3

Still down with an itlepip lynch at this stage. He still hasn't done much useful, I still don't see towny motivation behind those early posts, and I won't be very sorry if it turns out the martyring, self-voting player is a mislynch. I'd be much sorrier if we went for Lhix or Titus and they flipped town.

VOTE: itlepip

I want LoHa to talk some more.

[Aquanim]

...
You are aware that Mala and Kop together have 8 total posts here? Going for a policy lynch of me doesn't make any sense.

I'm aware.

I dislike Mala's playstyle of lazing about day 1 but sadly it's not alignment-indicative, and typically her usefulness picks up later.

As for Kop, I simply have more reason to think you're mafia than I do him. Kop would be a straight policy lynch. Yours isn't.

[Aquanim]

...
I'm feeling ignored this game.

I'm not crazy
And I'm not scum.

I'm not ignoring you, I just don't have anything to say about Titus' cases at this moment that I haven't said already.

[Aquanim]

Honestly I kinda feel that this game is being dominated by town, and scum is just slipping through the cracks a lot.
...

What are you doing about it?

[Aquanim]

Not sure about town, but #424 is a higher quality post than any of his others by some margin. If that keeps up I have no objection to him living to day 2.

Provisionally:
UNVOTE: itlepip

@Farside

: What is your opinion of LoHa? Particularly with reference to his latest post.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: My opinion is that given how much has happened in the thread between it and the last time he posted, it is VERY thin. Much more could have been said by an interested townie.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: My opinion is that given how much has happened in the thread between it and the last time he posted, it is VERY thin. Much more could have been said by an interested townie.

Just looking back on loha post he thought thelhix and Titus were scum on his wagon.
At that time she already made a point why loha was scum so the question just seems fillerish

Mm... I don't think Titus and LoHa are scum together, but individually I scumread both of them.

In addition to everything else said about Titus, the whole business with that "counterwagon" on pignash never sat well with me. Explicitly saying that you're voting for someone for the purpose of starting a counterwagon weakens the strength of the vote a lot and makes you less accountable for it (you can always hide behind your counterwagon motive, rather than the actual read). The pignash read also hasn't been pursued whatsoever since then.

I don't think that LoHa's vote for Titus is scummy on the grounds of hypocrisy which Titus advanced; I don't think that LoHa agreeing with Titus that the game had not progressed much necessarily means that LoHa should townread Titus, especially when Titus had done very little to advance the game. On the other hand, the vote itself being unexplained and unpushed by him sits poorly with me, and his contributions since have been lacklustre.

Both reasonable cases, but likely to be mutually inconsistent. Question is, which (if either) is scum? I think I'll have to sleep on it.

[Aquanim]

le lul @ laho trying to vote me.

VOTE: pisskop

Fun stops now, scum.

This guy hasn't done anything either.

Let's see if he'll omgus like the other or what.

vote: laho

I don't like sheeping aquaman sheeping titus in butchering my username.

Dafuq? You haven't got my username right once yet...

[Aquanim]

Meanwhile I'll take home the fact that aquaman doesn't know why Titus' vote is on me either and that I'm in his lynch pool because my play is thin. Does my postcount or the substance bother you? I've made two alignment indicative arguments for titusscum, the produce of my thin play. You call me scummy because my play is thin, I'd expect a townie with such a fat play as yours to come up with better arguments to base a lynch on, or at least sheep the ones that make sense.

Are you talkative scum?

You've talked a big game here. Now impress me or die. Give me your reads.

[Aquanim]

In the meantime, everyone should explain their votes for LoHa. There's one vote based on LoHa misremembering who said something (Soren), one vote based on an argument that's already been shot down in flames (Titus), one blatant self-preservation vote (itlepip), and three with no explanation at all (TheLhix, Pisskop, Yakko). Whichever of you are townies should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Aquanim]

Nobody hammer now. I want an answer to my question of him.

[Aquanim]

Nooope. We have >7 hours. I want his reads.

[Aquanim]

I doubt he is gonna say anything if he is scum.

And if he doesn't, then we learned something, didn't we?

[Aquanim]

For the record, I will be here in the hours leading up to deadline. If LoHa stays at L-1, I will hammer if necessary. There should be no risk of a nolynch.

[Aquanim]

wrt Titus: broken clock is right twice a day, I suppose.

I can hammer, anyone got anything else to say?

[Aquanim]

LMAO ok I missed #510.

[Aquanim]

@LoHa

: From one Teamliquid expatriate to another... this forum operates much less on ego-boosting and shit-flinging arguments. (Mostly.) Getting a feel for the different meta here is very important. (Same goes for Lhix on that score, actually.)

And yes Titus, your read is being "discredited" because, quite simply, it is worth no credit. Right or wrong, it was terrible.

To repeat myself again: agreeing with you that not much has happened in the thread is NOT a reason he should townread you. Scum frequently make accurate statements.

[Aquanim]

No. I'm not hammering yet. Not done talking.

[Aquanim]

For one thing, all of you seem to REALLY BADLY want this day over with. I'm not comfortable with that.

[Aquanim]

@LoHa

: From one Teamliquid expatriate to another... this forum operates much less on ego-boosting and shit-flinging arguments. (Mostly.) Getting a feel for the different meta here is very important. (Same goes for Lhix on that score, actually.)

And yes Titus, your read is being "discredited" because, quite simply, it is worth no credit. Right or wrong, it was terrible.

To repeat myself again: agreeing with you that not much has happened in the thread is NOT a reason he should townread you. Scum frequently make accurate statements.

I do have a question on this. I dont think I am necessarily shit flinging around arguments, but besides the arguing or trying to make a case what would you suggest? On the Meta I came from it was very much based in empiricism and observation. While I have noticed the shift here in both tone and play style, I have noticed that challenging is equally detrimental. Would you say that is correct?

The ego-boosting and shit-flinging was specifically a comment about Teamliquid.

I almost think you've overreacted to the site meta; you went from serious questioning of my vote in the first post to throwing around unexplained votes on a whim. I do personally prefer votes to be explained, and if appropriate pushed.

[Aquanim]

@LoHa

: From one Teamliquid expatriate to another... this forum operates much less on ego-boosting and shit-flinging arguments. (Mostly.) Getting a feel for the different meta here is very important. (Same goes for Lhix on that score, actually.)

And yes Titus, your read is being "discredited" because, quite simply, it is worth no credit. Right or wrong, it was terrible.

To repeat myself again: agreeing with you that not much has happened in the thread is NOT a reason he should townread you. Scum frequently make accurate statements.

He shouldn't vote someone whom the only thing he says is he agrees with me. That's the issue. It's a scumclaim. You're placing a strawman.

I don't see why. My opinion is that you had done very little to advance the thread at that point. If you're aware that it's a problem, but have done next-to-nothing about it, that's pretty scummy.

[Aquanim]

...
Still say this I'm god's gift is a ruse no matter what loha really is.
...

I don't buy Titus-LoHa as a bus, pretty sure.

[Aquanim]

Aqua, do you have anything else to say.

Yeah. If nothing else I have a conversation to finish with Titus.

I don't see anyone shifting away from LoHa.

Probably not.

I say both LoHa and Titus are scum. I stand by my titus read.
LoHa had a strange moment I saw that makes me think this and Titus self assurance without asking questions is a dead give away with her.

Can you share this strange moment so I can have a think about it?
I don't have direct experience with Titus but I'm not at all sure the arrogance is alignment-indicative.

...Now that I think about it though, Titus was... what... fourth? on the LoHa wagon, and could have felt pretty screwed over when you jumped off (hence the aggression). Is Titus a busser?

I'm still not sure on the 3rd scum read. Too much lurkers this game. I had higher hopes for Soren then I've gotten so far. Mala is pretty much as expected and is like this regardless of alignment. And well Pisskop, I feel like shaking him up on day 2 to see if he is town or scum because right now it is snooze city with him.

Time enough to worry about that day 2, after we see a flip or two.

[Aquanim]

@LoHa

: From one Teamliquid expatriate to another... this forum operates much less on ego-boosting and shit-flinging arguments. (Mostly.) Getting a feel for the different meta here is very important. (Same goes for Lhix on that score, actually.)

And yes Titus, your read is being "discredited" because, quite simply, it is worth no credit. Right or wrong, it was terrible.

To repeat myself again: agreeing with you that not much has happened in the thread is NOT a reason he should townread you. Scum frequently make accurate statements.

He shouldn't vote someone whom the only thing he says is he agrees with me. That's the issue. It's a scumclaim. You're placing a strawman.

I don't see why. My opinion is that you had done very little to advance the thread at that point. If you're aware that it's a problem, but have done next-to-nothing about it, that's pretty scummy.

You mean I kept my post count low til I caught scum is a problem?

If everybody did that the game would go nowhere. You had an issue with the game not having anything alignment-indicative, and your solution is to do something which continue to make the game not go anywhere?

Yes, I have a problem with that.

[Aquanim]

Aqua this is per your question in post 537

Spoiler:

Loha votes me for reasons that aren't clear. The only thing I said was I needed a counter to itep to get things going. That indicates not much is alignment indicative.

Loha sheeps that thought process, but votes me. If he thinks my thought process is scummy, why would he follow it? If he doesn't, then why is he voting me?

All around, that's pretty bad.

This is bs. I'm not sheeping anything.

Just a reminder why Titus pushed this as a scum read in the first place.
I wanted it remembered because it really was very weak and quibbling over a difference in wording that no one would notice.

[3] LoHa ~ farside22, Soren, TheLhix

If scum is on me it's either Titus or TheLhix or both.

He talks about 2 players on his wagon but doesn't explain why those 2 are scum.

Meanwhile I'll take home the fact that aquaman doesn't know why Titus' vote is on me either and that I'm in his lynch pool because my play is thin. Does my postcount or the substance bother you? I've made two alignment indicative arguments for titusscum, the produce of my thin play. You call me scummy because my play is thin, I'd expect a townie with such a fat play as yours to come up with better arguments to base a lynch on, or at least sheep the ones that make sense.

Are you talkative scum?

This is the biggest thing that caught my attention.
He calls titus scum still, there are even votes on titus but instead of pushing any point against her we have random vote time next.

VOTE: pisskop

Fun stops now, scum.

This guy hasn't done anything either.

Let's see if he'll omgus like the other or what.

kk I'll think about it.

[Aquanim]

I'd prefer the wagon to be at L-1 since I can guarantee a hammer.

[Aquanim]

Btw lynch Titus 2mrw if I'm dead~

Does this depend on the LoHa flip?

[Aquanim]

I don't really think it's a good idea to speculate. It's likely to just tell scum who the biggest threats are.

[Aquanim]

Ok looks like I'm not getting an answer from Titus any time soon.

I'll hammer in 15 minutes unless somebody wants to say something else.

[Aquanim]

I think one of soren-aqua-pip is scum.

Is this a list where the three of us have something in common, or just a feeling kind of thing?

[Aquanim]

Anyways Can you hold off for maybe an hour so I can read through the thread after I shower. I want to be sure of this Titus scum read, but from a quick skim of the ISO I'm kinda certina

I can do that.

[Aquanim]

Is the Soren case just "he's done nothing much" or is there more to it than that?

[Aquanim]

Any games I should look at in particular?

[Aquanim]

I mean his troll behavior, idk why doesn't feel scum motivated =\

LoHa or Soren?

[Aquanim]

Okay, hands up. Who would vote for:

Titus o/
Soren o/

Attempting a wagon-swap and ending up with a nolynch would be pathetic. Better to check the numbers first.

I don't have time to do the Soren metaread properly. My qualm about lynching him is that I think a flip on Titus or LoHa tells us much more about the day. There is, indeed, basically nothing of substance in his ISO, despite 40-odd posts.

[Aquanim]

Obviously I'm here. Can you hold on for 10-20 minutes while we consider what's feasible?

[Aquanim]

So Farside and Mala are already voting for Titus IIRC. I would vote Titus. pignash would if he's still here? I think Yakko and Lhix would.

Still leaves us one short. itlepip and Pisskop look unlikely, unless they'd like to say otherwise.

[Aquanim]

If Titus is conf town if lola flips scum and people think Loha is scum, why would we switch to Titus?

The point is that we are less sure LoHa is a good lynch.

If you guys are right and Titus is scum, then since you guys are cutting it so short to the wire if anyone listed is scum they would just not show up for the vote on Titus and we would have no lynch day 1.

If we're doing this I intend to do it in such a way that we can always revert to the LoHa lynch if the other falls through.

Soren there are some advantages so, but I don't support moving to a Titus wagon. Honestly I don't support moving the wagon at all.

What are the advantages to moving to Soren that don't apply to moving to Titus?

I wasn't voting for LoHa anyway so he's still at L-1 with this. Let's see what happens.

VOTE: Titus

[Aquanim]

Also Soren and Titus aren't here, so a wagon on them right now is super scummy cause they can't claim. Aqua, just lynch.

I doubt Soren's coming back before deadline but based on previous activity it's plausible Titus might.

[Aquanim]

kittymo deadline??

;-;

Deadline's about 2 hours if I remember correctly.

[Aquanim]

Yeah I'm typing like I'm drunk.
Night, night

No worries. Whichever way this goes I don't think your vote has to move.

[Aquanim]

This dance has been fun and all but I think it has reached its end.

I counterclaim Bodyguard.

Not impossible there are two, I suppose. It's not that useful a role so I don't feel bad about claiming it d1.

Intent to hammer LoHa.

[Aquanim]

This dance has been fun and all but I think it has reached its end.

I counterclaim Bodyguard.

Not impossible there are two, I suppose. It's not that useful a role so I don't feel bad about claiming it d1.

Intent to hammer LoHa.

And why try to wagon me then?

Whichever way LoHa flips, I've found the last few pages very interesting.

[Aquanim]

P-edit: Some of this is likely invalidated by the flips, I have tried to edit it quickly. Gotta go for now, bbl.

Yeah, in the end that claim was probably bad.

Short version: That LoHa wagon was the sketchiest wagon on likely scum I'd ever seen (lots of unexplained votes, no good case, nobody pushing elsewhere much) and I wanted to shake the tree. Messing around with a counterwagon and seeing who bit seemed like the best way. I do regret pushing it far enough that I felt I had to claim to get out of it.

I wouldn't have done it with a more powerful PR (doctor/cop/JK/what have you). Given the odds I'd get shot in the next day or two anyway (rendering my role thoroughly worthless) I don't feel quite as bad about it.

Whatever.

If you want to say I'm scum, come and try it. If you just want to call me bad, save it for postgame.

---//---

On the bright side, I learned some things from my stupid stunt.

itlepip

I don't think #610 comes from scum-itlepip if LoHa is scum and Titus is town. Reads as almost hysterical. It's remotely possible this post is made by scum-itlepip if Titus is scum too and he's trying to save her but that seems extremely unlikely. (post-flip edit: now impossible.)

pisskop

Pisskop's antipathy towards end-of-day shenanigans might be a matter of record elsewhere (anyone have meta to support this?) so I give him less town points for his position against switching to Titus.

Malakittens

Mala was very confident the Titus wagon wouldn't actually go through (see #626). As such I'm not sure it's reasonable to draw conclusions directly from her lack of effort towards a Titus lynch, despite Mala's apparently quite strong scumread on Titus. The disconnect here has me worried but I'm not convinced it means much.

I'd like to see examples from Mala and Titus to back up the argument they were having about Titus calling Mala out for inactivity re. #599.

Yakko

Yakko kinda tried to stir up interest in a Soren lynch (see #579). Didn't really push it very hard. Whether this was towny doubt in the LoHa wagon, trying to see if anyone would bite on a Soren counterwagon, or scum trying to drive a wagon off his buddy, I'm unsure.

I'm not comfortable with #629 given the context of Yakko also trying to push an alternate case to LoHa. I went a lot further than Yakko did in that counterwagon, so his statement in that post isn't totally hypocritical. Still bothers me though.

Soren

#519 is the relevant post here. I could well see this post coming from a scum resigned to their buddy's lynch and wanting it over with. Soren certainly didn't contribute to any further discussion.

Farside

Probably still town.

---//---

Votecount Analysis

Just looking at the final LoHa wagon for now. The Itlepip wagon could do with some attention too.

[7] LoHa ~ Soren, Titus, itlepip, pisskop, hi im Yakko, TheLhix, Malakittens
[2] Titus ~ farside22, Aquanim
[1] hi im Yakko ~ Nosferatu
[1] pisskop ~ Kop
[1] Soren ~ LoHa
[1] TheLhix ~ pignash

[0] Not Voting ~

Other relevant things: Pignash offered to hammer LoHa, Farside voted LoHa originally then switched back to Itlepip. I don't really count Mala's vote as being on the LoHa wagon.

I'd expect to see one scum on LoHa, possibly both. There was plenty of opportunity for them to jump on. From the top:

Farside

still reads to me as sticking the knife into LoHa too hard for them to be likely scumbuddies. #193 had serious teeth, pointing out that LoHa's statement that "Pip's interactions don't seem forced" was in direct contradiction to the facts.

Soren

jumped on early over LoHa misremembering who said the Itlepip self-vote was scummy. It's the kind of thing I can imagine being a bus; Soren can always go "oh he forgot, whatever" and unvote later, or sit at the bottom if the wagon piles up.

itlepip

and

Titus

' votes were what made it into a wagon with momentum, as opposed to Farside applying pressure and Soren jumping on a mistake. Seems unlikely to be scum.

I find it exceedingly unlikely that there is more than one scum in {Farside, Soren, Titus, Itlepip}. That would be a lot of effort to screw a scumbuddy.

TheLhix

's vote was pretty unobtrusive, not really explained at the time, not really pushing for a lynch directly. Mmmmaybe. The wagon could still have died at that stage had LoHa not dug his own grave on Pages 17-18, but Lhix didn't really commit to the vote either. Unlikely to be scum with anybody earlier on the wagon.

Pisskop

's vote was a reaction to LoHa's vote for him. It's possible LoHa figured he was screwed at this point and was distancing. Also possible it's just noise.

Finally

Yakko

pushed the wagon up to L-1, presumably in reaction to Pisskop's interaction with LoHa.

If there are no scum on LoHa it would have to be because either:
1) They tried to push a counterwagon. The Itlepip wagon totally died (despite my interest in it), so the most obvious place for scum to be if they're doing this on Titus. I doubt it's Farside but Mala's at least plausible. Related topic: Pignash and Yakko also canvassed for interest in another lynch.
2) Neither of them were in the thread at a time where they wanted to (or could) get on LoHa. That points a finger at Kop/Nosferatu/Pignash.
More-or-less the same ideas apply to thinking about the one off the wagon in a one on, one off scenario, except that the one off the wagon is more likely to have been avoiding the thread rather than being unable to be in it.
(Post-flip edit: With Nosferatu dead this means either one scum was on LoHa, or neither were and there's presumably a reason for it.)

Kop

's only meaningful contribution to discussion was #439 in which he questioned Titus' reads on LoHa and Farside, as well as her not pursuing Pignash any further. This looks like an ideal position for scum; arguing against a case on a scumbuddy which he can demonstrate is in fact bad. Also, I'd already said most of it.

Nosferatu

was absent for almost the entire business, came back when LoHa was at L-1 and approved a hammer. Unlikely to be alignment-indicative I think. Hasn't done much else besides that argument with Itlepip, and interacting with me over it. (Post-flip edit: might be some association here but I doubt it.)

Pignash

tried to start a wagon on Lhix in #378. If Lhix is town I can't imagine scum don't have him pegged as a mislynch at some point this game, simply for inscrutability and a weird style. (Post-flip edit: Unless it's a PR snipe I dunno why scum takes this shot.)

Since my protect is aimed at preserving PRs I am not inclined to say who I protected.

[Aquanim]

mfw I forget one:

TheLhix

Actually unvoted LoHa.

Pignash wanted to lynch Lhix, too. Maybe it's that easy.

[Aquanim]

Loha hard defends Farside too.

Are you talking about this?

[3] LoHa ~ farside22, Soren, TheLhix

If scum is on me it's either Titus or TheLhix or both.

[Aquanim]

VOTE: Farside
...
No interactions with NoS
...

Nos had sweet FA interactions with anyone but me or itlepip so this one I don't buy.
I'll think about the rest of it.

[Aquanim]

Mala pig kop post more after NoS just being called out for coaching...not likely

This I don't understand. Wouldn't a scumbuddy post more to try to draw the conversation somewhere else?

[Aquanim]

I mean, maybe if you were making a huge issue of that point they would try to be missing so as to not talk about it...

also Pignash is dead and I don't see any Mala posts anywhere near #265 so I actually don't have any idea what you're getting at.

[Aquanim]

I see now, you were referring to this.

Finished reading up, LaHo is probably scum, don't necessarily see Titus's reasons for it.

pip looks a lot better.

not liking lhix; I'm having trouble reading his sudden mood swings, feels like I'm listening to a girl on her period

idk how I feel about Titus v Farside looks kind of TvT to me

would like for mala pig and kop to post more

Aqua and Yakko read town to me.

Even assuming Nos was concerned by your observation (considering neither you nor anyone else followed it up IIRC this is not necessarily true) I don't think anybody says "Nosferatu is coaching Malakittens... and Pignash... and Pisskop". Both on the grounds that it's totally possible to conceal one scumbuddy among three targets, and that it would be ridiculous for Nos to "coach" Mala and Pisskop.

[Aquanim]

Aqua, I said NoS was coaching LoHa telling him to scumhunt. NoS, seeing I perceived that, is highly unlikely to repeat that his buddy needs to post more. It's not about whether the assessment is true but rather him avoiding links.

I don't think there was anything much *to* say about Pisskop, Pig or Mala at that point besides "I wish they'd post more". In fact, if there was nothing but that to say about a scumbuddy, concealing it within a group of similar townies is pretty much exactly how I'd expect it to be said.

I'm not arguing Pisskop or Mala are likely scum but the point's weak.

[Aquanim]

Aqua, wasn't my Loha point "weak" too?

Yes. Yes it was. Still is, in fact.

[Aquanim]

Let's not get into that, shall we?
I'm sure we both have all sorts of uncomplimentary things to say about the other's play.

[Aquanim]

...just asking for your vote because I was right before and you were wrong.

That's not how this works. You convince me you're right, then you get my vote.

[Aquanim]

Also pretty sure I never townread LoHa.

[Aquanim]

I guess you missed the part where that was mostly a play for information...

Ugh. The fact of the matter is Titus, if we're going to have this conversation I can't help but make it personal, because my entire opinion here is personal about you. If you want to go into that, we can.

I'd prefer not to since I'm town, you almost have to be town, and so it's a complete waste of time which will shit up the thread. We can do it somewhere and someplace else, instead of inflicting it on everyone else who has to read it.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: should be "somewhere else and some other time"

[Aquanim]

I'm Mason

Gfu

Do you know if pignash crumed or something? I don't understand that shot and I'd like to.

[Aquanim]

...
I played perfectly imho.

Don't we all, Yakko, don't we all.

[Aquanim]

...That made more sense in my head.

The point being that I think the large majority of players have an inflated opinion of their own play. Likely including myself.

In other news, a Vigilante claim would give me peace of mind that we're not facing an SK but I'm not sure my peace of mind is worth having the role in the open, especially if it has another shot. Use your own judgement.

[Aquanim]

...That made more sense in my head.

The point being that I think the large majority of players have an inflated opinion of their own play. Likely including myself.

In other news, a Vigilante claim would give me peace of mind that we're not facing an SK but I'm not sure my peace of mind is worth having the role in the open, especially if it has another shot. Use your own judgement.

I can half see what your saying about the SK, but bringing out the Vigilante role out in the open uneases me, and if the vigilante comes forward, how can we prove that he is the vigilante and not a SK?

Titus, will understand the stance of what happened with that, in the first blitz game.

We find the last scum, we lynch the last scum, if the game doesn't end we lynch the vig claim.

Assuming it's a vigilante, I think the best thing is to leave it to their judgement when to claim based on whatever their thread position is.

[Aquanim]

Can we lynch aqua? He makes my headache.

I apologise.

Seriously: I don't really understand where Pisskop is coming from either. I'd like that explained a little more.

[Aquanim]

Aqua, could you please explain at the time your reasoning for claiming bodyguard there was? I don't see any scum reasons for doing it, but I also don't see any town reasons for doing it so I'm still really confused by it.

Because I knew Titus and Yakko were going to make my life even more miserable today than they did yesterday, and I realised if I left that play unexplained they might actually get thread traction.

Without that claim you could make a case on me that might actually get me lynched. Trying to counterwagon against LoHa, equivocating about the LoHa lynch all day, throw in something about sheeping Farside.

Would that justification hold up if I were scum, too? Probably. That being said, I'm very sure that if I were scum in that spot I would have taken the bus on LoHa (who was very doomed, even if the lynch didn't happen immediately) rather than get myself in hot water with that stunt. Where a protective role did not bother to counterclaim LoHa, if I were fakeclaiming they probably would.

My personal estimation is that the rest of my ISO is very town-readable too, but your mileage may vary.

---//---

Also aqua are you emulating someone? You read like a couple different people posting to me.

No, and I'm not a hydra. Sometimes I forget to play nice though.

[Aquanim]

Was anybody on the LoHa wagon there because of Titus' case? Hands up.

[Aquanim]

The vote from pip. Opportunistic as fuck. I like it even more now. Go ahead and hang him.

I 100% accept this, but it doesn't mean that LoHa isn't scum.

TLDR: Titus is a god and you should just give in and follow whatever she says, because if she is town we will win and if she is scum the game is already over...

Dangit, I was liking Titus's defense of me .

Also not a fan of pisskops pings that seem to just be following the aqua-farside-yakko groupthink.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.

[Aquanim]

Oh also, from the site rules:

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes,

>>> wagers, promises <<<

, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

Can we not go here?

[Aquanim]

Titus's quote in her sig is my exact thought about the game right now.

Who do you agree with in this conversation?

[Aquanim]

Picking a fight with the one player in the game you know will OMGUS you into oblivion sounds like a profoundly poor scum plan.

[Aquanim]

@Lhix/Soren, who do you think is scum?

I am down for voting say of the three in my pool but only those three.

I've explained my reasoning for Mala
My next is undecided. Though I am wary of Aqua and Soren, Soren because he has done much of the similar shit I called Mala on. Aqua not as much, given that he seems to be trying to lead town.

Can you explain these two points about Mala more? I don't understand what you're referring to.

anti-progressive to potentially game forwarding reasoning

as well with Nos (whom little resistance was given by) being scum

[Aquanim]

Scum is 100% in Aqua, Pisskop, Yakko.

Take the bet Farside?

No consequences. Scum's 100% in there Farside. What's your pool?

Scum:
Titus, Soren, pisskop

There is my group

Any particular reason not Kop?

[Aquanim]

...
Since my protect is aimed at preserving PRs I am not inclined to say who I protected.

Not that protecting PR reads is as relevant now. I don't think it's all that useful to say but if enough people want to know for some good reason I could.

[Aquanim]

It tells us who you are town reading.

Actually, it tells you who I PR read, which is a different question.

[Aquanim]

I'll do it if one or two more people think it's a good idea. I feel much less strongly about not saying now with our increased knowledge of the PRs in the game.

[Aquanim]

I'll do it if one or two more people think it's a good idea. I feel much less strongly about not saying now with our increased knowledge of the PRs in the game.

Is it safe to say me and yakko would like to hear this

I meant one or two people *more* than you and Yakko.

[Aquanim]

Do you mean "ply" as in the word or as in policy lynch?

You'll get my reads later, I'm busy right now.

[Aquanim]

I'll do it if one or two more people think it's a good idea. I feel much less strongly about not saying now with our increased knowledge of the PRs in the game.

Is it safe to say me and yakko would like to hear this

I meant one or two people *more* than you and Yakko.

Nice rephrasing you have there. A+ in terms of being substantial in any way shape or form. Evasion skills get a C though.

This is exactly how it was phrased in the first place. You two asked, I said I'd do it if "one or two >>>more<<< people think it's a good idea".

I don't have to take this shit from you when you didn't actually read my post.

[Aquanim]

Tell you what, you two. Match #651 in terms of effort and analysis and I will begin to give a shit about your opinion of my play.

Until then, you can either scumread me or piss off.

I was finding a little bit of time in between other work to interact here but I'm no longer finding this conversation enjoyable. You'll get my reads when I have some uninterrupted time to write a case. Until then, bye.

[Aquanim]

VOTE: Soren

Has made 40-odd posts with next to no content. I reckon there was a scum on the LoHa wagon and Soren fits that bill. The vote was over LoHa misremembering who had called itlepip's self-vote scummy; not really the strongest reason for a vote.

I reckon scum are likely feeling pretty resigned after having lost two players in a cycle. This post looks pretty resigned to me:

13p normal game. we have 2 masons, and 2 scumflips. We've practically autowon already.

True. There's probably only 1 scum left. We should just mass claim and weed out the last scum. No point dragging it out.

In general Soren's day 2 posts look the least motivated out of all the players here IMO, though the more experienced players here likely know they should try not to look that way.

[Aquanim]

Other possibilities:

Kop

has nine posts halfway through day 2 and I refuse to lose to that.

TheLhix

jumped on and off LoHa twice during the course of the wagon, and Pignash's scumread of Lhix in this post is the most obvious reason for a Pig shot. That being said my gut read on Lhix has been town and their play day 2 looks much more energised than resigned.

After that I guess I'd look at

Yakko/Mala/Pisskop

. None of those have pinged me particularly - nor farted town rainbows, either.

I would expect a scum-Mala to have been able to coach LoHa into being less suicidal. Pisskop and Yakko might well have done that too.

Especially given LoHa's request for advice when he claimed scum that indicates to me that

there was nobody particularly experienced on his scumteam for him to seek that advice from

.

Conceivably Pisskop and LoHa could have arranged that cross-vote as a distancing tool I guess.

I'm not sure what to make of Nosferatu pushing but not voting Itlepip at that point early in the game where the Itlepip wagon was Farside, Yakko and myself. It's possible Nos got spooked by the self-vote and decided not to vote... it's also possible she didn't want to vote so close to Yakko if they're buddies. It can't have been Nos getting spooked by another scumbuddy voting the wagon because the only vote which came after and anywhere close was that of Pignash.

Farside's town, and Itlepip's interactions with the flipped scum do not look at all like scumbuddies. That leaves Titus.

[Aquanim]

I understand where the desire to lynch Titus comes from, I really do; but there's only one player I've ever seen whose policy lynch favours town wincon even when extremely likely to be town, and Titus isn't RadiantCowbells.

I even understand why you're scumreading Titus, I think her arguments have been poor all game and her reads are largely OMGUS.

I just don't see the Titus-LoHa interaction as a bus. If they planned to bus it would very likely have to have been before LoHa's vote for Titus which started it.

Note that scum have daychat:

6) Day talk is in effect for roles that may communicate outside of the thread.

Why orcestrate some tunnel-y bus when the town is barely sniffing at anybody on the scumteam yet, and there's a mislynch wagon or two on the table?

...
Ding, Nostaferu just coached Loha.

Also, why call your scumbuddy out for coaching your other scumbuddy, when you could have told them not to with your daychat?

[Aquanim]

The post you are objecting to by Soren is overconfident town.

Possible.

LoHa's vote on Soren was not a bus.

Why not?

The actual point is that Soren's spent forty posts doing... nothing. No pushes, no questions, barely even any awkward observations.

[Aquanim]

I shot nos

>>> and titus.<<<

you

what

If you take another shot and miss we lose a lynch, and I

will

lynch you for being an SK unless the game is already over

[Aquanim]

That wasn't quite clear enough.

DO NOT SHOOT tomorrow night. If you do, and you miss scum, I promise you that you will be lynched the day after, and (since we would be at 4-player MYLO) no matter whether you are a Vig or an SK you will lose and scum will win.

[Aquanim]

Calm down. You will not lynch me.
...

Yes, you're right, I won't - as long as you play to your wincon.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: and playing to your wincon in this situation is to NOT SHOOT.

[Aquanim]

It'd take a fair bit to convince me the itlepip-Nosferatu interaction was a bus.

Also agree lhix is a townlean.

I ought to review both of those though.

[Aquanim]

I don't believe a bodyguard and a pair of masons against three scum and an SK is balanced by the standards of this site.

(Note: If there is another PR out there, you should claim now.)

[Aquanim]

Fine. I feel more strongly about making people shut up about this than the (still good) reasons not to do this now. Good job.

Titus night 1, figured the lurking and arrogance might have meant PR and if Titus was shot it would be because scum thought she would tunnel in the correct direction d2.

Farside night 2, because I strongly expected her to be shot and enough people are derping over my claim that confirming my alignment by death was more important than preserving the presence of my own opinion in the thread.

[Aquanim]

Four claimable roles (considering Bodyguard doesn't actually decrease effective scum KP, Masons don't do much besides confirm each other, and Vigilante can shoot townies pretty easily too) seems entirely balanced against a three-man scumteam.

It's comparable to MMVVDTT in C9++; scum don't have a Godfather which would be worthless anyway, and town both don't know anything about the setup which would allow them to setup spec and have a significantly worse role in place of the Doctor.

[Aquanim]

Actually, that reads even more weighted against town than the corresponding C9++ setup. Then again, if the last scum is also a Goon then they don't have the corresponding Roleblocker either, which I think moves it back closer to even.

[Aquanim]

All other suspicions have been confirmed, such as Nos and Titus.
...

What about Kop?

[Aquanim]

I prefer the situation where Yakko doesn't shoot and we have two lynches to work with before LYLO, myself.

Also the numbers change if Yakko is one-shot bulletproof SK.

[Aquanim]

Then again we can get screwed by a SK-yakko holding his shot tonight, then if we mislynch from 1-1-3 he and scum shoot and there's then only two players left, and unless they're both townies we lose.

Bleh.

[Aquanim]

Things I want to see soon:

-Mala say something more constructive than "stop tunneling" about TheLhix's scumread
-Kop do basically anything useful

[Aquanim]

Sorry Mala. You did not deserve to die before Kop, but when someone gets quickwagoned while I sleep...

[Aquanim]

And all of that applied even more to Kop.

[Aquanim]

And all of that applied even more to Kop.

As I acknowledged, and as he is one of the top picks at the moment. Now I got somethings I want answered and fulfilled
1. Reads, all of them, full analysis, impress me. I know you can, you've done it all game.

What reads are even left? Farside's town by claim, Yakko must be either town or SK, Kop's a policy lynch, I still lean town on you but I could certainly write a case on you.

2. Who did you protect when you did

If you'd been reading the thread you'd know I protected Titus night 1 and Farside night 2. Since uncertainty as to my protect is the only reason I can see why neither Farside nor Yakko were shot last night I have no sodding intention of saying who my night 3 protect was, besides that it was one of those two.

Why? I'm beginning to think I'm being framed as the LYLO mislynch. I have no intention of letting scum guess who I'm protecting night 4 if the game goes that long.

[Aquanim]

Let's do claims right now before anything else.
Kop please claim.

You realise how long we're gonna be waiting for this? :/

[Aquanim]

One thing I am going to say now because it has burned me the last two days. (I'd have liked to talk to Soren and Mala.)

Don't lynch anyone today until I have had a chance to talk to them and give my opinion on the lynch after doing so, or until I indicate that isn't necessary

. (Obviously make an exception if deadline looms.)

[Aquanim]

Well, from my perspective... assuming Yakko is indeed a vigilante (which seems likely) we just lynch through Kop and Lhix in some order and collect the win.

If Yakko is an SK we need to lynch the right one of {Kop, Lhix} today.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: If Yakko is an SK and we mislynch today there are probably still ways for town to win but that starts to get into really dicey territory I would prefer to avoid.

[Aquanim]

GG

that mala lynch should of never happened

...yeah, pretty much

Titus, something for you to remember: when you wanted to lynch

LoHa

there was interest and eventually it happened, even if many of us didn't like your case in particular. When you wanted to lynch

Farside

,

myself

,

Yakko

and

Pisskop

nobody was interested.

Moral of the story - there's more than one reason for people to disagree with you, and it's not always that they are awful or scum.

(Second moral of the story - when your entire mindset appears to be built around OMGUS you don't get taken seriously.)

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: No doubt you have some explanation for why your reads weren't OMGUS... but my statement above is based entirely on what you looked like from the outside, which was "OMGUS anyone who disagrees with me or scumreads me, and barely even talk about anybody else".

[Aquanim]

And another EBWOP: This isn't really me being bitter or anything; this is me offering you feedback on your play, and hoping that you might find it useful in refining your towngame.

[Aquanim]

Masons register as false positives to me. The reason is there was a townread that was not based in evidence. That's true of scum.

So far as I remember, your case on Farside was associative with LoHa and had nothing to do with Pignash at all.

Yako registered as a false positive because he was killing people and sensitive about it. That vig on me was horrible.

The second vig shot wasn't real good, no. However, the first shot being on scum means that he was 99.9% to not be mafia. SK, maybe, but not mafia.

(Yes, that's not 100%. Yes, I once saw mafia fake being a vigilante by shooting a buddy with scum KP. Monumentally unlikely here since it would leave the Pignash shot unaccounted for.)

Pisskop was attacking obvious town, which only served scum.

If Pisskop had not been shot I suspect we would have at some stage lynched him.

Aqua was attempting to wagon town while knowing we wagoned scum. That's lynchworthy.

Well, if you don't buy that that was me fishing around to see who would bite (incidentally, Itlepip refused to bite so hard that I strongly townread him for it, when that was a difficult read before) then this scumread is understandable.

Town got really lucky here. I was wrong, but seriously I have zero idea how town won this.

Just because your methods of making reads resulted in a bunch of false positives this game doesn't mean it was impossible for anyone to make accurate reads. Also Kop shot some totally possible mislynches for reasons I don't understand, though I suspect we would have won in any case after N1.

[Aquanim]

Also... this is why having admitted you're scum you should just hammer yourself:

...
Especially given LoHa's request for advice when he claimed scum that indicates to me that

there was nobody particularly experienced on his scumteam for him to seek that advice from

.
...

This was information I should never have beeen given.

[Aquanim]

Thanks to everyone for not replacing out and to Farside for picking up the didn't-confirm slot.

I'm busy for the next month or two but perhaps you will see me again after that.