Mini 1742: game over

[JohnnyFarrar]

Teehee

[A Simple Plan]

Spoiler: so, I ISO'd Wickan...

^This seems like it's trying way, way too hard to read into the fifth game post in the thread.

VOTE: talah

Terrible. I understand your perspective, but my POV is that he's getting the game away from RVS hella quick by generating discussion. That's NOT scum.

Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.

Vote Wickan

. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest. Just normal mafia jabbering. It's not clear to me that that in particular points either way.

I clearly said I have no problems with your

[talah's]

vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town

This is just plain not true. You did have problems with talah's vote; you thought (like I did) that they were making a serious vote off of obviously RVS/spam material (cf 15 22). I dislike that you try to cover this up.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

I can't understand what the heck this is. It looks like you're making a case on Frozen, and then voting RC with no explanation.

In retrospect, 39 wasn't very pleasant either.

Wickan, why do you call out FA for covering up her issue with talah but then you vote on RC? I'm not getting a game-solve vibe from you?

Those are two separate issues. The former I found suspicious, the latter was a vote aimed at RC's weak jump in of "I think FA is town" without any further commentary or a shift in his vote. The two aren't related. I was expressing suspicion of FA, but greater suspicion of RC.

@Johnny: I'm not "twisting" RC's vote at all. RC's response to the whole talah-FA back and forth was to just jump in and say "I like FA for town atm <3"

and leave his vote there anyway.

Yes, I'm aware that that was an RVS vote, but the combination seemed both unhelpful and anti-town.

ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all.

Taly's jump, however, does feel bad, as it removed a significant amount of pressure from me before I had even responded. Even if ICE's post had set off alarm bells, I would've expected him to just wait. That's unhelpful to town, but I'm not quite sure why it's scum.

This post... Geez, where do I start? I shipped a little bit that was irrelevant to my point, but really? Your problem is with RC's lack of commentary, so you cast a

naked vote

. Is it scummy, or not? Your vote suggests it is, but your vote is therefore scummy itself. It should not have required prompting to explain that vote.

The response to ICE is calm and collected, and I think that's fairly pro town, contrary to the rest of the post, and I like the points made about Taly here, though it is potentially setting up a vote for later.

110 is ugly. In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town; b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything; c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic; d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

VOTE: Taly

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

So is Taly's unvote scummy or not? This post is indecisive on the matter because point b paints it as scummy in the first paragraph, but 78 claims it had no scummy motivation for happening. In addition, what happened to RC?

And I am pointedly refusing to answer the question.

Fair. It was a terrible question. Any answer would've been incredibly scummy.

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,

Well, I did.

-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),

I mean, are you saying that I voted RC for no reason? And only came up with that reason later? Yes, I didn't explain it at the time; I thought it an obvious reference to the post he had just made.

-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

It wasn't opposing early discussion so much as thinking that talah was really, really reaching with that logic.

This post radiates of "fuck you, I'm town." I don't like the response re: RC either, because it's one of those things where he goes "look, I voted him, he must be scum! Go figure out why!" There's only one player I can think of who ever does this consistently as town, and he's constantly scum-read for it. As town, there shouldn't be a reason to naked-vote. Also, is reaching with logic scummy? I only ask because a lot of your logic throughout your ISO seems to be reaching, such as 230 I doubt you've played with RC before if you think that's particularly scummy of him, or 232. If you're scum, you know the motivation behind your actions, and it becomes innately harder to fabricate town-motivated content, whereas if you're town, it's clear what to do and what to look for, but harder to get into the mindset of scum, because you're

not

.

Wickan

- why drop your vote on RC without saying anything about a changed read?

Because it hadn't.

@Wickan I think where that falls apart in my head is that ICE doesn't really seem a hugely valuable buddy. At least not so far.

Nobody is really expressing suspicion there (myself included). Seems a perfectly fine D1 buddy to me.

Then why did your only post mentioning him at all between 90 and 213

@Johnny: let's explore your alternatives to me (obviously I'm your number 1, but I'm curious about 2)

Do you think RC's continuous bringing up of his meta is at all scummy?

Do you think ICE's association tell thing is productive?

Did you actually gain anything from these questions? I didn't really see any sort of follow-up either. What is your read on Johnny?

I'm actually scumreading titus and wiccon as I said before. As I said I feel a weird connection between them.

But their already under pressure and I'm analysing people's reaction about them. I'll post my reads later today (don't have the time right now)

All the more reason to add to the pressure though. If you're suspicious, why would you sit back and let other people handle it? Wouldn't the townie thing to do be to add pressure? It looks like you just want to have other people do the dirty work, so that you can stay above the fray.

This is... Overly poor. What could you possibly gain from these questions? It's like calling him scum without calling him scum. Did you benefit from this at all? If so, explain what you got from these "questions", because I don't see how things in a "wouldn't it be better..." Sort of manner is going to gain information. It's leading.

But ICE has taken plenty of stands. He thinks I'm scum paired with one of you or Taly. And he's danced w/ RC about meta and us about "how do scum vs town think."

So is your belief that RC is scum reliant on ICE also being scum?

Okay, I understand. But my question is still there. You're saying that RC is avoiding sorting ICE and saying that that's scummy. But does that also rely on ICE being scum? If we knew for a fact that ICE was town, would that still be problematic??

Again, what did you gain from these questions?

about me pressuring you - I voted you to see your reaction and it was awful. you started accusing others when people started asking you questions. this was weird.

I started accusing others of being scum? Yes, yes I did. That is the game. Do you think that I did so in a particularly suspicious manner, and if so, why?

I read your only meta town game in site and this is not like it all.

I have one game from four months ago. I would argue you're reading way too much into one game.
(also, I would argue that there's plenty of continuity in my town playstyle: I sucked in that game and am doing poorly here )

I asked you a question about the ones your scum reading in your wagon and you refused to answer.

I think I've basically given my thoughts about all players (well, not Simple Plan, but there's nothing there).

Unsure of how to read ABR's 341....

I think the easiest way to read it is on its face: an admission from Albert that he's not going to put much effort into this game. I honestly don't see that as particularly alignment-neutral either way though.

1) Why did you not comment on what was being said about you, choosing instead to redirect? Ignoring concerns is not the way to go.
2) self-meta is scummy. You're basically saying that because people scum-read you, you have to be town, and that's some serious crap.
3) have your reads at all changed? Has Taly done anything more recently than 110 to validate your read further, or was it just early-game that made you suspicious?
4) it's an Albert tell. I can't quite understand- are you saying it is or is not alignment indicative?

Short case: Taly's 110, his attempts to insist that his discussion w/ you were TvT and his buddying up to you, and going all the way back to his unvote on me early on, removing pressure. Although he does seem to have dropped the townread on you recently (not sure why, as I'm not sure what you've done differently that prompted it). (Taly will promptly dispute that he ever had a townread on you, but I honestly don't know how else to read 110)

See also my 230 for the short case on RC (although slightly out of date, I think most of it still holds)

Also @ICE: see my question above on the Titus wagon. Is it primarily driven by Titus not explaining her reads?

I appreciate the shortened versions of cases and explanations for your reads, but I disagree with 230- that's definitely how RC plays as town. Again, though, what do you hope to gain from this question?

And for the record, I absolutely 100% still believe that 110 was an attempt to buddy ICE. From the "I get in a lot of TvTs, especially D1" to trying to placate ICE's concerns to agreeing with his reads. It all looks like an attempt to deflect ICE's attention away from you and to other people.

Okay. Anything since then that you find scummy about Taly, or is that scum read based solely off of that one post?

I don't like how Wickan is approaching the game trying to find cracks,

it feels like he's patting around the dark for the path of least resistance to a mislynch.

I honestly don't know what this means.

To be precise, the bolded part makes no sense to me.

The latter half I understand, and I guess my only response is "no"

This sort of response isn't really necessary. No what? No you're not searching for cracks in the game? It reads like you are. No you're not searching for the path of least resistance to a mislynch? Fair. You're tunneling the fuck outta Taly, who to the best I can tell is not in today's lynch pool.

Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.

I really don't see that that follows at all. Just because they're my townreads doesn't mean I agree with them on everything.

Make the case for why ICE is scummy.

Again, I like this post. It feels town in nature because it defends your own reads, and explains a reasoning for not wanting to follow them on a wagon in the same manner, though Titus offers reasoning for the ICE scum read in 218 and Talah does a much more comprehensive job in 408, enough so that I'd sheep it. It bothers me that you didn't see any sort of case on ICE whatsoever to the point of asking it be made again.

Summary: Laced with questions that aren't exactly beneficial and terrible posts- features a horrible self-meta assessment, tunneling, and early problems explaining his vote. I can definitely see town motivation slipping in through some of his posts, but I'm leaning scum overall, and I'm okay with this wagon.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Is that intent to hammer? ^

[RadiantCowbells]

Right, so, here's what's going on with Titus.

I noticed in 1708 where I was scum that there's some phrases, specifically y'all, that she frequently uses as a sort of tic when she gets frustrated or stressed.

Here were the posts from when she was basically getting shit on by half the game for her performance in a previous game.

OF course not.

I just don't vote "compromises" my scumreads are on. Y'all don't care. I get it. Basic people reading is beyond y'all in this game. It's ok.

Hammer Stool. He will flip town.

The last game y'all fucked up. My unorthodox strategies got us to 3p lylo where RC paid the price for her gamethrowing. Surprised she wasn't banned tbh.

I already told you why Stool is going to flip town. I will case him when I have time. Sometimes you know.

@RC + Chaos, and how many scum lynches did y'all get before my "terrible" reads? Chaos moves a few pegs down. If RC is town, I want Chaos for trying to prolong our fight.

If you look at her play in general you see that phrase exceedingly rarely and only when she's under some sort of strain and I had that pegged as a tell for reading her when I played that game.

I believe that considering her use of Y'all there doesn't match up with the stress or frustration tic usage and she doesn't appear to be under any pressure nor could I see it as being appropriate for just being used in general, that it was a conscious decision by Titus to try to soften my read on her. I have reason to believe that my using that as a tell for reading her may have been brought to her attention, and while it could potentially be used by town or scum, given that she's scumreading me I can't see it as at all likely that Town!Titus would be attempting to change my read in that manipulative manner, and think it far more likely that she's scum.

Plus, there's so many things she's said this game that just absolutely don't mesh with the rest of her kit and she's trying to set up battle lines between groups that I suspect badly misrepresent the gamestate. I want her lynched, end of story.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like, I just get such an incredibly strong feeling that she's trying to manipulate this game.
Her just happening to throw out Y'all at that specific time in that specific context just gets my goat.
Not to mention this little number.

Your vote was shit and is always shit regardless of your alignment. If you're legit careless with your vote, why should I believe anything else you do is that thought out?

Like, since 1708 ended and I apologized to her for what I said at the end of 1682 she's been extremely nice to me in general.
This really doesn't mesh at all and it comes in a post that strongly seems to me designed to manipulate how people see the gamestate.
I can't lynch anything else. this is scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Ok cool, so now that you have had your turn to speak, you can sit back down and we can hammer Wickan after he claims.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Wickan is literally the person she wants to lynch the least; if you think Titus is scum, Wickan is the way to go.

[RadiantCowbells]

Titus obsesses over VCA.

People who obsess over VCA take steps to make sure VCA does not impugn them.

I would be not at all surprised if her partner was in the group of people she wants lynched and all of her townreads are WKs.

[Frozen Angel]

Wickan is literally the person she wants to lynch the least; if you think Titus is scum, Wickan is the way to go.

this logic is flawed.

But yeah I think Titus - wickon is a huge possibility.

Thx for explaining it RC your push against titus sounds way more logical now.

[RadiantCowbells]

Vote Titus, please?

[JohnnyFarrar]

What's a WK? Also let's lynch Wickan first and then when he flips scum we'll do your thing with all the time it gives us

[RadiantCowbells]

white knighting.

I'm not expecting Wickan to flip scum, though.

I want a Titus lynch.

[Frozen Angel]

Vote Titus, please?

but she won't be lynched today

whats a white knighting?

[RadiantCowbells]

She will if you vote her and you get others to follow you.

[Frozen Angel]

But I'm convinced about Wicken as much as titus. Why should I change my vote on her when people won't likely follow.

[RadiantCowbells]

Then you can try wicken later.

Pleaaase <3

[Frozen Angel]

what should I do!!!!!

ah hell. its RC's request

VOTE: Titus

if people voted me for this vote I'll kill you!

[Frozen Angel]

I will announce my Intent to hammer if we reached the L1 again on Wiccan.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm voting both of them in shadows

[JohnnyFarrar]

Not on board. They way we've avoided Wickan is actually starting to creep me out.

[Frozen Angel]

^ what ?

[Frozen Angel]

Not on board. They way we've avoided Wickan is actually starting to creep me out.

whats your opinion about Titus? and why you think the way she is buddying wiccan is not scummy?

[JohnnyFarrar]

I don't think buddying is a thing that happens very often. I don't like Titus' defense of Wickan, but I rarely like the way Titus approaches the game at all, scum or otherwise.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Not on board.

The

way we've avoided Wickan is actually starting to creep me out.

Also edited so it makes sense grammatically

[Frozen Angel]

so your saying you can't read her?

pedit : yeah I found out.

I'm not avoiding it. just testing waters and as a slave of RC's charm I must obey him