Micro 553: ETL's Double Day Unlimited (Game Over)

[Papa Zito]

HELLO

it seems weird ass mechanics are in play

I read things brb

[Papa Zito]

ok I'm at page 5 and I hate the multi vote thing with a passion already

[Papa Zito]

I feel p strongly that KK and Wicked are town. KK is someone else now, so whoever that is.

Everyone else is kindof a muddle. This damn multivoting thing is throwing me off. I will do some isos and report back.

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: conmanmick

I feel p good about this

Also I refuse to multivote so don't take this as my only scumread tia

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, it's been a while, you were in my very first game on this site.

ohshit that's right

man that was a great game

RC and/or PZ, can either of you explain your town read on Kublai?

Yeah he was clearly trying to solve the puzzle. He was delving into things and hitting the correct notes. I can give specifics if you want but that's the gist of it.

Our conman tho, is like, the exact opposite.

ALSO

If there's a vig in the house (probably not, but) Prohawk would not be a wasted bullet, tia.

[Papa Zito]

oh right

2 goons, 7 VTs. zzzzz

Fine he can eat some rope later. I feel like this double day thing is super townsided. Let's just call the first lynch the vig shot.

[Papa Zito]

you anti why did you unvote conman

[Papa Zito]

because rc might be right and conman might be a trap wagon

where was this

[Papa Zito]

..........................................

[Papa Zito]

ok explain where you got that impression then

[Papa Zito]

it might be easier for you to explain why you're scumreading conman than for me to try to articulate why i think i might've been misreading his weird, detached, floaty style as scummy when it might just be playstyle.

Why are you avoiding the question?

[Papa Zito]

Yeah, I'm pretty damn confident that CMM is town here.

how

guide me to the promised land

[Papa Zito]

This town is asleep.

OFFICIAL VOTECOUNT 1.2.08

ConManMick

(4): Wickedestjr, Papa Zito, ProHawk, TellTaleHeart L-1

WickedestJr

(2): TellTaleHeart, RadiantCowbells

TellTaleHeart

(1): ConManMick

Antihero

(1): Wickedestjr

ProHawk

(1): Antihero

RadiantCowbells

(0):

Papa Zito

(0):

Rob13

(0):

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch, and 4 to no lynch.

---

Deadline:

December 8, 2015 at 10:45 pm EST, or in (expired on 2015-12-08 00:08:45).

Mod notes:

None for now.

@Mod: Where is Rob13's vote(s) at?

[Papa Zito]

K.

And he said he was reading tonight.

Given that slot's history if good things don't happen then I'm gonna make with the angry words.

[Papa Zito]

If this is your reason for voting him, then why him instead of ProHawk/Rob/RC ?

I'm not sure why you're lumping this particular group together, explain? Or is this just your scum list, which by and large I agree with.

----

290:

@Papa Zito:

Rationale for Wicked-town? I'm not really seeing it.

Arrite:

Well I was

going

to vote Tere for being chaotic neutral at worst, but

she's at L-1 right now

!

RC is also at L-1

.

Tere is at L-1 again.

Personally, I think two or three votes should be the absolute max. Even three might be too much if it means everyone is at L-2...

Reminder: I replaced into Tere's slot.

So I'm not sure how helpful this'll be for the rest of you, but I have the benefit of knowing my own role PM. Wicked's actions here are pure town from my persective. He could have easily let my predecessor's vote status go by without mention, at zero risk to himself, and hope for an accidental (?) Tere lynch during all that freewheeling multivoting that was going on early game. But he didn't, he made sure to point it out twice and saved the mislynch. I know there's a "town cred" counterargument here but I don't think that holds much water in this case.

---

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that I might've been wrong about this.

More tomorrow...

porque

[Papa Zito]

I mean what's better - one quick mislynch or being seen as town? As scum, I'd always choose seeming town and let the mislynches follow.

In a game this size, "one quick mislynch" is really beneficial for the bad guys. Which is why I've got some major misgivings about your slot.

also given the fact he's got a wagon going the "town cred" argument falls apart

[Papa Zito]

I obviously can't defend my predecessor's actions, but I don't think they should be considered by people judging my alignment. He's been banned as a troll account. He directly stated on the wiki here that he is a "liar and troll", and that he deliberately lied and acted against wincon in games. I imagine that's what went on here. He was tanking the game for the "fun" of it.

That may be how he wanted to be perceived but

I don't particularly like the buddy buddy sheeping of Kaboose and Con. They both follow the inquisition and relatively act in a pair, as well much of the criticism to Kaboose's seemingly primary target (RC atm I think) has just been debunked by Tale with flourishing reason. None of that is indicative of alignment, especially this early, as I said, its more or less brash play style or town frustration. (RC has seemed to proved scumhunting and activity, emotion is not a full downfall)

Vote: Kaboose

I want the black sheep dispersed, as their methodology is pretty unhelpful (while I am one not to judge, it does stand for reason that it does sideline analysis) and their criticism in conjunction with others is rather flawed it would seem.

... that's not how he was playing here. That is not a troll post. That wasn't a lolhammer, gosh look at me guyz I'm so whimsical and shit. That was a deliberate game move with a deliberate consequence.

All that said, I DO recognize that the guy got banned as a "troll account" and that "details to come" means the ban was due to ongoing games. And that's the ONLY reason I'm not all over your ass right now. But don't try to sell me some story that I have to completely ignore what your predecessor did, that's loony tunes.

[Papa Zito]

Is this thing on

we have like 3 days left

...

[Papa Zito]

what the hell does that quote thing even mean

[Papa Zito]

So essentially your entire townread on him is built on the assumption that the rest of us are scumreading him for the vote all strategy.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Papa Zito]

I'm wondering why you only called out Con for this instead of other people that weren't doing much scum hunting at the time like Pro/Rob/RC...

Well, in Rob's case he'd just replaced in and (presumably) was catching up, so I don't think it's fair to lump him in this group.

Regarding the other two, I'm not stoked about their lack of contribution, no.

meta

:/

---

This post from Zito is bothering me, actually. Could you explain how you came away with that interpretation from what I wrote? Maybe this is instinctive OMGUS, but surely this is an attempt to strawman. I have a hard time believing you genuinely read my entire post and only came away with an understanding of the first couple lines.

Well, here's your post, with only your "arguments" for him being town included (I've removed your questions/quote at the end), with my bolding added:

So first, the vote all thing. He stood by it. I don't see why scum wouldn't claim a rookie mistake in an unfamiliar setup and back down here when pressured. Instead, he sticks with it to the end. Say he's scum for a second. The lynch doesn't go through; then he's gained nothing. The lynch does go through; then eyes are on him for his voting strategy. I don't agree with his voting strategy, but I see no scum motivation here, and his voting pattern is a significant portion (the only one?) of why people are voting him. So to those voting Con: Where's the scum motivation? If you're voting him for another reason, explain it to me, because it got lost somewhere along the way.

I like your recent play.
With regards to tere, it occurs to me that neither myself nor Kaboose ever answered this:

Kaboose and ConManMick, why have you chosen to make everyone else hated?

At the time I did it because RVS shenanigans. I began unvoting players based on whether or not I thought they could be scum, and left the other votes (a total of four, I believe) because I figured those players could go either way.

And for that matter, what's not convincing about that? You may not agree with it, but I see it as having town motivation. He's working by process of elimination.

239 comes from town. I think TTH is also town, but Con is right to question him on a "joke" comment from page 3 when we were out of RVS obviously. Overall, I think Con is town, or at least don't see reason to believe he's scum that occurred prior to his wagon.

Everything bolded, meaning everything except

one single line

, deals with the vote:all stuff. You've seem to have made an assumption that everyone voting him is voting for purely this incident, and so essentially you're arguing against his lynch by arguing this one point.

[Papa Zito]

I am super sick.

Will read up and post tonight

[Papa Zito]

Vote: ProHawk

(L-2)

I like this more than the ConMan and RC wagons.

Four and a half hours left Zito

Well crap.

I'm at my son's scout meeting, will read up best I can.

[Papa Zito]

Shit this is dense.

Apparently I have votes on me, none of which are explained, all of which fell when I was away. Nice. Very definition of opportunism amirite.

I've skimmed, need to do Isos, BUT a couple things that were at me:

1. My CMM vote was unexplained, not terrible.
2. My beef with Rob's weird CMM defense was never really answered but my scan didn't show further comment so maybe this is much do about nothing.
3. I always :/ at meta. I give meta no value. Feel free to meta me on this topic. :3
4. I didn't find the selfvote and replacetapdance impressive in the least.

Man phoneposting ducks.

[Papa Zito]

SUCKS

Fu phone.

Where's the vote at.

[Papa Zito]

Vote: ProHawk

(L-2)

I like this more than the ConMan and RC wagons.

Four and a half hours left Zito

Prohawk where did he say that

[Papa Zito]

Gdi phone.

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: CMM

That NK doesn't change this at all.

let's see... you've:
>changed your reads to conveniently head off threats

what's this one?

[Papa Zito]

what's this one?

magically appearing scumreads on me+conman after we start scumread/vote him.

Can you show these?

That NK doesn't change this at all.

????????

what does the nk change for you?

Not much. I went back through TTH's iso and the NK still points to Conman. (inb4 raging against NK analysis; idc those decisions aren't made at random)

[Papa Zito]

It points to Rob as well, who I also suspect because of that slot's prior shenanigans. I thought you were asking in relation to the vote tho.

No I mean, can you show me RC quotes in which the magical appearing scumreads happened?

[Papa Zito]

Zito, explain how it points to me when TTH was town reading me. I don't know what anti's reasons are, but I 100% think you piled on as one more way to fake your reads. You are NOT being genuine.

That post again ...

I was townreading your slot mostly because I thought there was no way scum could be as all over the place and bad as Lhix was, but stuff like this makes me think I went wrong somewhere and you're just scum.

reading is tech

hooked on phonics will work for you too!

---

Let's make a deal.

I'm positive that the scumteam is Anti/CMM right now.

How about we lynch in the 3 of us, and if you lynch me then you have to lynch one of them after.

Does that sound fair?

I'm not super interested in lynching your slot right now.

---

3. I always :/ at meta. I give meta no value. Feel free to meta me on this topic. :3

Ok well why don't you give it any value? If you are voting somebody for a particular player trait, then wouldn't you want to know if it's something that they usually do as town or as both alignments. Wouldn't that render your reasoning invalid?

This is a theory discussion that we can have some other time.

Let me show you what true lazy thinking looks like.

You have been voting for CMM all game.

This is lazy thinking. This is "I don't really approve of this behavior" thinking. I just discussed how nothing in the NK changes my view on that slot. That slot was my top scumread yesterday. If nothing changes, it stands to reason that it's my top scumread today. Why would I not vote my top scumread?

Yet you haven't given any reasoning.

Again, this is lazy. "I don't like that you haven't done what I want." You can't tell me, with a straight face, that you've never seen a town player vote someone and maintain that vote without providing a case.

I just skimmed your iso and noticed you haven't spoken to CMM once this entire game. Why aren't you trying to get explanations from him? Why aren't you asking him any questions?

What, exactly, am I supposed to be asking him? He promised a catch-up post that only just now was delivered. I haven't been provided new content to question him about. You'll notice I started engaging with Antihero instead, who was posting. Again, lazy, you're not actually looking at what's going on in the game, you're just pulling at straws.

[Papa Zito]

Ok well why don't you give it any value? If you are voting somebody for a particular player trait, then wouldn't you want to know if it's something that they usually do as town or as both alignments. Wouldn't that render your reasoning invalid?

This is a theory discussion that we can have some other time.

A theory discussion "some other time" isn't going to help me determine your alignment "right now". It's a simple question and I don't understand why you aren't answering - I can't just assume that you genuinely believe what you're saying because I don't know your alignment and your opinion makes zero sense to me right now.

A theory discussion is just white noise and isn't going to determine anything BUT if you really wanna dance this dance then we can.

Spoiler: this is theory, everyone else is free to ignore

I don't give any weight whatsoever to something a player does in other games or has done in the past. I honestly just don't care. There are way too many variables to make that kind of analysis meaningful. Saying "Well this player lurked in his last game and he's lurking here so he must be scum!" is stupid. Maybe he has computer issues! Maybe he has connection issues! Maybe Life Happened and he's super busy! Maybe he's burned out! Maybe he's just not having much fun! There's all kinds of perfectly reasonable explanations for why someone's behavior can change from game to game. I gave (what I consider) a super great analogy for this in another game but it isn't over yet or I'd import it here.

Here's a fun exercise - go review my past games. Iso me and ctrl-f meta. Report your findings to the class. If you're really serious about this shit you'll do it.

Keeping your vote on somebody for an extended period of time, on its own, isn't scummy.

Great.

You're right - townies vote without giving reasons all the time.

Great.

You didn't question him about any of his original content either, so this is a pretty bad excuse. You've literally never spoken to him once in this game.

I stg I have to go over this every fucking game. I'm not obligated nor required to grill someone in order to put a vote on them. I'm just fucking not. If other people are talking to someone and I don't feel the need to jump in and add something,

guess what I won't.

whoa slow the fuck down we have a crazy ass concept here. I really have 0 idea why people have decided I need to be held to this ridiculous standard when other people are free to do nothing but drop naked votes, snort coke, and post train pics without batting an eye. /rant

[Papa Zito]

If I systematically shoot down meta in my town games, then my shooting meta down here is not scummy. How's that base logic.

But you have been asking other players questions, so I just assumed you were the type of player to get reads by asking questions - that's why it confuses me that you're not asking CMM anything. I don't know that this is necessarily a scum tell, but it's certainly an aspect of your play that doesn't make sense to me and I thought that your response would help me understand your thought process.

My thought process is that I don't have to ask someone questions if someone else already is. Unless there's something pressing that I want an answer on and whoever is doing the questioning isn't hitting that point, why the hell would I stick my nose in there and ruin someone else's efforts? Why not use the opportunity to watch not just the target but also the questioner to see if they're coming from a good place? Why not put my efforts elsewhere and broaden the town's overall scope of scumhunting instead of tunneling on someone that's already being questioned? ffs this seems so goddamn obvious to me, why do people have trouble with this.

[Papa Zito]

@Rob: uninstall your internet please.

[Papa Zito]

The

real

tell here is the way Rob's waiting for Wicked to commit before he does so himself.

[Papa Zito]

You're not scummy for disagreeing with meta.

Great.

I'm glad you guys are being so understanding. Here's a heart balloon in a strong breeze: ~~~<3

My ASCII skills are superior don't even try.

[Papa Zito]

too much yammering
not enough hammering

I'm totally stealing this.

zito if you're not doing rc would you do this?

I'm down.

UNVOTE: ConManMick
VOTE: Rob13

Whose effort did you not want to ruin?

You and Antihero.

If you continue to dodge this, I'll have to assume there's scum motivation here...

ffs I'm not dodging anything. I'm even engaging in stupid mafia theory debates in the middle of a goddamn game.

When did I criticize your vote movements? When did I say "gosh Wicked wtf are you doing unvoting that guy?" I recognize people use meta all the time. I don't agree with it, I think it's more destructive but helpful, but hey whatever the fuck floats your boat. If you wanna build your house on sand that's fine by me but don't expect me to build my house next to yours.

[Papa Zito]

Hey RC I posted something in the QT could you check it real quick.

[Papa Zito]

Oh woops slipped silly me.

[Papa Zito]

Zito put more words into that joke than he has into explaining any of his reads this game. That's why you should all be voting him. That's why he's a sure thing.

ur mom's a sure thing

ayyyy

[Papa Zito]

And Papa, you fucking unvote Rob now.

This guy has rented a giant caterpillar bulldozer and is pushing the biggest pile of bullshit in the universe on me and you honestly think that's coming from a good place?

Can I remind you that he replaced TheLhix aka Captain Fuckhammer?

I am 100% all in on lynching Conman (who's doing a great job of lurking out his wagon) but that would mean I have to listen to this font of nonsense for yet another day.

[Papa Zito]

I don't know what he was banned for. I certainly couldn't see it in his posts here.

For real though, I've answered every damn thing this guy has said, AND every thing Wicked has said, and yet the vitriol continues to flow like a Saudi oilfield. The ONE thing I haven't done is sit here and dole out a case, partially because it causes him to go into an apoplectic fury which is kinda funny.

[Papa Zito]

Well fuck you because I want to win.

<3

Zito, I noted in 377 that Lhix was banned as a troll account. Are you not reading my posts or opportunistically ignoring them?

I answered that in detail in my 381. Are you not reading my posts or opportunistically ignoring them? :3

For real, you keep throwing shit hoping it sticks and I keep watching it slide down my teflon raincoat. Plz continue though, at some point people are going to wake up to the smell.

[Papa Zito]

Your response was basically he wasn't trolling in this game. But he was banned for trolling in an ongoing game. The ban contradicts what you're saying entirely.

His ban says "details to come". Do you know something I don't?

Regardless, there was

nothing troll that he did in this game

. I am ONCE AGAIN going to remind you that idgaf what he may or may not have done in another game, all I care about is what players do in

this

game, and in

this

game he was not trolling, but scummy.

In Blitz 1, Titus also deliberately flustered SW, who can be hotheaded, to throw them off their game. Titus was scum. Honestly not sure if that's what's happening here, but I consider it possible.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're attempting to tie my behavior to that of a completely different player in a completely different game. Please tell me you aren't trying to tie my behavior to a completely different player in a completely different game.

Papa I'll lynch you on principle if you continue this.

Continue what, not unvoting Rob?

[Papa Zito]

I'm not voting either of those.

[Papa Zito]

I'd rather vote conman with you instead.

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: RC
VOTE: Zito

see, this is terrible. I dunno if it's worse than his 239 but it's up there.

That said I really need to see Predator again, it's been waaaay too long.

[Papa Zito]

what a shocker

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: RC

I'm not going down until I convince you all that Zito is fucking scum.

like this is the worst self-preservationist vote in the history of mafia

[Papa Zito]

I'd like to remind everyone we're in lylo with unlimited votes.

Rob doesn't care about this cuz he's scum tho.

[Papa Zito]

If by some miracle of Jehovah you're town then you're handing scum the game as soon as they both get on to quickhammer me. But since you are one of those scum you of course aren't thinking that way.

That was the 2nd lolhammer by your slot. Are you a troll account too? Or could it be that your slot enjoys hammering townies because -gasp- you're scum?

@Town:

Where you guys at.

[Papa Zito]

I'm here, puzzling over stuff.

Can you tell me who your top suspects are? You don't have to make cases, I just want to know where your head is at.

[Papa Zito]

guys plz

[Papa Zito]

Anti I want discussion not votes. :/

[Papa Zito]

No, that's precisely what happened, no matter how he tries to spin it.

Screw it.

VOTE: Rob13

[Papa Zito]

I thought you had the game sussed out. It's a Zito/Anti team. You're so sure you've dropped votes on us

both

.

If that's the case then why are you spending so much energy arguing with scum? The town is Con/Wicked right? Shouldn't you be spending your time trying to get them involved?

(there's a very easy answer here)

[Papa Zito]

Sure.

UNVOTE: Rob13

[Papa Zito]

lol

[Papa Zito]

ah ok then. VOTE: antihero

[Papa Zito]

ilu

[Papa Zito]

I keep telling people about meta, man.

nobody listens to me

[Papa Zito]

I'm really really shit as scum so that play was super great from my perspective. Either it works and Rob is essentially cleared or it doesn't and nobody will ever think of us as a pair.

Mostly I hate being scum and I'm glad it's over.