Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[Aneninen]

This is fairly accurate. I'm taking a backseat on purpose while the holiday finishes. Sorry, I know that's shitty, but I am following along.

I actually did the same thing quite a couple of times, regardless of my alignment. I think it's a null.

ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.

I wouldn't describe ABR's play I know in a way like that. In spite of it, that seems to be the town-ABR I've seen before.

However, if a player seriously pushes for the lynch of another player, and this would have taken a huge risk if both were scum, then I am more inclined to believe that they are not scum together, i.e., that at least one of them is innocent.

Not essentially. Scum-scum puppetshows do exist.
And you're speculating too much.

VOTE: Lucky2u
Found scum.

Why?
What do you think of AlwaysInnocent?

VOTE: Lucky2u
I know that we are still transitioning from RVS to scumhunting, but Lucky2u is playing too minimalistic now even for my taste. I want to see more from him.

Are you just voting any wagon gains momentum?
I don't think we're still in the transition of RVS–scumhunting.

AlwaysInnocent, 135 – again, speculating instead of scumhunting.

kmd and alwaysinnocent are scumbuddies. you heard it here first.

I have my doubts about KMD, but I am curious why you think that. Like I said, trying to find positive connections between scum on D1 often fails. So why do you think you are able to find a connection between me and KMD? For giving up so easily on me? That caught my attention, too. But what does it tell us? Not much.

scumbuddies confirmed

Kidding, right?

if i were a dayvig i would shoot you right now

unvote, vote: always innocent

Well, good that you aren't then, because that would be totally reckless.
BTW. Why me, and not KMD?

This last bit tells me that KMD's not scum but AlwaysInnocent is. Or at least, scums often try to "lead" players to their suspected buddy if they know the buddy-guess is wrong.

There most definitely is. Scum would happily spend most of their time posting about theory because it distracts from actually scum hunting. Both your posting and Kop's posting around this subject makes me feel uneasy.

^^
That!
BBT could be town, I guess. I know those "interrogative BBT-catchups".

If other people want to play without theory, then that is up to them. I, however, refuse to play without theory. I don't play chess without theory either.

Hhhhhhhhhh
BBT, I guess you remember JK9 – and everything I did there as scum. ^_^

Caught up.
VOTE: Yos
This needs to happen now.

Why is Yossarian scummier than AlwaysInnocent?

People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. ^_^

I note Yos' vociferous defense of AI in 151. My suspicion is that it makes Yos more likely scum and AI more likely town.

I have limited experience on Yossarian but he seems to be a vociferator.

People usually confirm in different ways; a few examples to illustrate my point.
'/confirm. Let's get this game going.'
'/confirm, wooooo, I'm excited'
'/confim, y'all are making me nervous already.'
'/confirm, accompanied with random GIF' etc etc.
I'm sure you get the point now.

Yeah, I've seen such things before but sometimes players just post /confirm. I'd never consider it a tell. (And I thought you'd been joking in that very early post.)

It makes perfect sense to hunt for lurkers early D1. Mainly to pressure them to become more active, making it easier to read them.

Fighting a lurker instead of an active player is a thing scums often do. (Actually I did the same in another C9 game. The first scum-game on MafiaScum ever.)

actually he's right the verbiage of the pm was very specific, part of why i found your opening point dumb. also we're way beyond arguing about whose confirms are scummy now so lets just get together and lynch always innocent for actually being obvscum.

Gzzzzzzzzz I haven't even read that part. ^_^
(Wow, I'm a caught scum now, aren't I?)

[Aneninen]

As for Day1 speculations, here's my opinion:

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

[AlwaysInnocent]

die scum die

pew pew lazer beams

Ugh.

lowell, kop, shadow and toffee are all town and should all climb aboard the always innocent wagon with me for great justice

Yes. Listen to the guy without any arguments at all.

I really hope for your sake that this is part of some "strategy" to find scum. If you are serious, then your play is terrible. I fear the latter.

Or you are scum, of course.

[roflcopter]

the reason this playstyle is effective is because scum freak right out when they can't figure out what they've done wrong

end lesson

[roflcopter]

also lol at yos trying to explain my playstyle to always innocent to no avail as he continues to run headfirst into the wall of being obvscum

sorry your coaching didn't work out yos, love ya buddy

[AlwaysInnocent]

the reason this playstyle is effective is because scum freak right out when they can't figure out what they've done wrong

end lesson

Effective you say. I am going to save this post for later.

[Lowell]

lowell, kop, shadow and toffee are all town and should all climb aboard the always innocent wagon with me for great justice

Kop and shadow are town???

Is KMD town? A friend wants to know.

[roflcopter]

lowell, kop, shadow and toffee are all town and should all climb aboard the always innocent wagon with me for great justice

Kop and shadow are town???

Is KMD town? A friend wants to know.

kop and shadow yes

kmd probably still no but i'd rank him behind ai and yos at this point, and there might only be two scum

[AlwaysInnocent]

I

think

roflcopter is town. I think it is hard to fake this kind of... well... bad play.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

(Not saying that roflcopter is stupid. I think he is a smart guy, but his overconfidence causes stupidity in this case. He does not seem to consider the possibility that I am genuinely annoyed as town.)

[Lowell]

I think I may almost be coming around to AI being town? His offputting earnestness might not be an act.

Can we talk about ABR? Why is he town? I feel like we had a modest wagon that fizzled out.

[Lowell]

@mod

I'll be away from noon tomorrow until Monday morning. I may or may not have internet access during that time (I will try to check in at least once or twice, but don't have a smartphone so it's sort of a pain in the ass).

Can I proxy my vote while I'm away?

~.No <.< ~.Zar

[AlwaysInnocent]

I think I may almost be coming around to AI being town? His offputting earnestness might not be an act.

Can we talk about ABR? Why is he town? I feel like we had a modest wagon that fizzled out.

Obviously there is no indication that Albert B. is town. Anyone who claims otherwise is full of shit.

Just look at his ISO. There is no tell on him whatsoever. Except that he is a lurker.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Never mind Lucky... I found someone better.

UNVOTE: Lucky

VOTE: Albert B.

Albert, come play with us.

[Yosarian2]

Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Agreed. This in no way assuages my concerns that you're scum or even responds to my comment about your post though. You side-stepped my issue, well played, but try again.

You claimed it was "scummy to make a list" with absolutely no justification for that fairly bizarre statement (especially since making a list is pretty much a universal behavior from many people irrespective of alignment). Anyway, the only real way to town-hunt is to make a list of people who look town, and then go after people not on the list.

Excuse me? What is "incorrect" about my statements? I've been playing with ABR for many years now, I think I have some idea of what his meta is.

You said ABR was picking fights - I showed you that this was wrong.

How dare you

WE WERE A TEAM

So you want me to town it up for yall or am I playing my normal scummy game?

This is not "playing mildly". He's being deliberately provocative to try to get a reaction from people, which is pretty much what I'd expect.

This was also great:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Texcat

For drawing conclusions so quickly.

AlwaysInnocent, you drew a conclusion just as quickly as TexCat.

No, no. I never conclude anything. I only assume things.

Townish, aggressive, trying to scumhunt without fear or excessive caution.

He also changed his vote 4 times by page 4, which, in context, is town-ish and implies scumhunting. He's lurker hunting, which is also pro-town at this stage of the game, and in general his play makes a lot of sense.

Just because you describe something as 'townish' it doesn't make it so, you just repeat this is townish, this is townish, this is townish. Why were those actions townish?

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Why are you trying so hard to get me to defend AI, anyway? Why do you care so much where my town read comes from? I could understand your play if you thought AI was scum, but as it is, your whole thrust here just looks wierd.

Aggressive is a trait reserved for town now is it? That's a first.

Being aggressive is a townish trait, yes. It's not "reserved for town". Being passive is a scumish trait, although it's not reserved for scum.

If you expect me to come up with 100% reliable town or scum tells in the first 4 pages of the game, then I hate to break it to you, but that's just not how this game works.

Lurker hunting is the easiest form of scum hunting for scum to do, there is nobody to respond to their accusations.

I didn't say lurker hunting was a town tell, i said it was pro-town behavior, which it is.

This feels like a scummy vote from BBT, but obviously I may be biased here. Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

You wanna elaborate on this bad vibe you're getting from my posting and why my vote is scummy? You need to stop stating things like they're fact and start explaining.

I'm going to say things however I want to, in whatever way I want to, and you are going to deal with it.

If you want to know, I think that I posted a list that had you in the "scummy" catagory, and you massivly over-reacted in a pretty irrational way, that didn't really make any sense at all. That makes you look bad.

Not only that, it makes me think that if you do flip scum, that probably most or all of your scum team is also on that scum list I posted, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to discredit me.

Also, you missed the part where I asked you to show me where Kmd was pushing ABR.

Town it up if you are town. Be scummy if you are scum. Like if you are scum, keep buddying people like you have with Yos and BBT already

[Kmd4390]

Apparently my family decided we are celebrating Christmas tonight so I'm buying gifts and heading over. Sorry I'm behind, but I'll come back tonight.

[Yosarian2]

People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. ^_^

No, it's not.

In my experence, town usually lose to semi-active scum who fly under the radar. That happens because people focus on attacking people who are loud, aggressive, and obnoxious, while ignoring people who are quiet and only just kind of contributing.

The best way to avoid that is, instead of only looking for scum tells, look for town tells, look for people who are acting like town. Make a list of them. Compare them to the list of the people playing the game. There will usually be a few people who aren't on your list of town people, and who you hadn't really even noticed were in the game and hadn't thought about until you made a list.

Those people are usually the scum.

[Yosarian2]

also lol at yos trying to explain my playstyle to always innocent to no avail as he continues to run headfirst into the wall of being obvscum

sorry your coaching didn't work out yos, love ya buddy

Lol.

I was actually trying to explain to him that you act like this as town, rofl. I was defending you, and trying to difuse what is pretty obviously a town v town fight.

[Yosarian2]

Updated list:

Town:
AlwaysInnocent
KMD

Leaning town:
roflcopter
Aneninen

Null-town-ish
kop
acryon
Lowell
Albert

Null-scum-ish:
shaddowez
texcat

Scummy-
BlueBloodedToffee

Lurking + Scummy
Lucky2u

[AlwaysInnocent]

I wouldn't describe ABR's play I know in a way like that. In spite of it, that seems to be the town-ABR I've seen before.

There are no tells on Albert B. yet. Anyone who claims otherwise is bullshitting.

Not essentially. Scum-scum puppetshows do exist.

I never said they didn't exist. I am talking about probabilities.

And you're speculating too much.

No, I'm not. This is common sense.

Are you just voting any wagon gains momentum?
I don't think we're still in the transition of RVS–scumhunting.

I am voting for lurkers atm.

AlwaysInnocent, 135 – again, speculating instead of scumhunting.

That's not speculating. That's theoretically describing a rational strategy for early-D1.

This last bit tells me that KMD's not scum but AlwaysInnocent is. Or at least, scums often try to "lead" players to their suspected buddy if they know the buddy-guess is wrong.

What did you say about speculation again?

^^
That!
BBT could be town, I guess. I know those "interrogative BBT-catchups".

It doesn't take much to convince you.

Hhhhhhhhhh
BBT, I guess you remember JK9 – and everything I did there as scum. ^_^

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I assume you used theory as scum. Good for you.

Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. ^_^

Actually, he is correct.

Fighting a lurker instead of an active player is a thing scums often do. (Actually I did the same in another C9 game. The first scum-game on MafiaScum ever.)

Because luring out lurkers certainly has no value, right?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yosarian, why is KMD town? She hasn't done anything.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, why is KMD town? She hasn't done anything.

Eh. There are things I like from his post #100, things I don't think would be to his advantage if he was scum.

Obviously these reads are all like 75% gut right now.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Surely there are players that are more town-leaning than KMD? It just seems off.

[Yosarian2]

Surely there are players that are more town-leaning than KMD? It just seems off.

Objectivly speaking, probably. In practice, though, i highly doubt KMD is scum thus game. Of course that's based on pretty much one post and may change

[Zar]

Day 1, Votecount 3

Albert B. Rampage (2): acryon, AlwaysInnocent
AlwaysInnocent (2): Aneninen, roflcopter
Lucky2u (2): Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage
shaddowez (2): Lucky2u, Lowell
acryon (1): Kmd4390,
texcat (1): Kop
Yosarian (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (2):

texcat, shaddowez

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline

: Saturday January 9, 2016 11:30 AM  New York Time. (GMT-5)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2016-01-09 11:30:00)

Mod is V/LA until Saturday

Lowell is V/LA until Monday

[Kop]

I will get to this tomorrow. Too tired and I've just got back from the hospital.