Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[Kop]

Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

I completely disagree with this, this seems so backwards but if you truly believe this it should be helpful in understanding your actions. Game theory is not alignment indictive, I know, but I'm almost willing to make an exception for this...

how is it opportunistic?

I'm an easy target.

I asked you a question and you answered with a question about my question. That's scum misdirection. So do you feel like answering now?

He is actively lurking. That concerns me.

But isn't he V/LA? How is that actively lurking?

Most of this game, up until your latest vote, you've gone after the lurkers, which tells me your trying to go after the ones that are less likely to interact with you, than going after ones that are actively in this thread who are more likely to react to your votes.

After reading back, the people that are unsettling are, yourself and Lucky.

Lucky doesn't like a vote on him, and thinks by showing he is active that warrants that unvote.

I don't want you to move your vote, I don't really care about that. My concern is that you parked your vote on a player who was a then lurker so you wouldn't have to take a stance on anyone else. Now that I'm here and active,

if you truly believe me to be scum then I've achieved my goal.

You're not hiding your vote.

Am I reading this right, you want to be scum read, is that your goal?

[Kop]

That first quote shouldn't be there.

[Yosarian2]

I don't want you to move your vote, I don't really care about that. My concern is that you parked your vote on a player who was a then lurker so you wouldn't have to take a stance on anyone else.

I originally voted you for lurking. Then when you posted without posting content, even though you were clearly here and reading the game, the vote got a little stronger ("+ 10 scumpoints" was how I put it.) And then you did it a few more times, which I liked even less.

And as ABR has pointed out, I've taken a lot of stances on people, so the next line if fairly silly.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure I said why I didn't like your reads-list when I posted. You should go read my post again.

Ok, let me go back and see.

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.

So no, you really didn't give any real reasons, other then an n apparent dislike of lists.

You're right though, lots of people make reads-lists. Sometimes though, a reads-list just isn't required, or it doesn't say a lot or there is something else wrong with it. I have caught scum by them posting awful reads-lists before. You wouldn't be the first.

Except that was an awesome list, especally for page 4. And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.

It's not actually the 'making of the list' that's scummy. I mean, it still kind of is because nobody needs a reads-list on page 5 or whatever it was, but it's the fact that you felt the need to post it. You didn't need to post it, the only purpose of posting it is to look 'pro-town', especially as you later admit your reads are based mainly on gut.

I posted it because it's good to share your reads with the rest if the town. Reasons are less important then what the reads are.

And if you think I was trying to look pro-town by posting a bunch of town reads with no reasons, you're crazy. I expect random newbs who don't really understand the game to vote me when i do stuff like that. But your reaction was really weird.

I've cut the quotes out from ABR - go and look at what happened right before ABR started posting like that. I picked the fight with ABR, not the other way around. [\quote]

That's reasonable. Frankly, there's a reason i labled the top half of the list "people i don't want to lynch right now" and not "town reads". I would not say i had a strong read on ABR that early.


Now I do, though, and I think my early gut-read on him was right.

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Fantastic. Now, tell me why these tells apply to AI and not me? Because I'm not seeing consistency in your reads.

Consistency is a scum tell.

Anyway, I don't suspect you for lack of scumhunting, i suspect you because you have done some weird things. It's not that you weren't scumhunting, it's that I don't really buy your scumhunting. A lot of the stuff you did early in the game feels weird, and your reaction to my lst really feels off.

And I certanly haven't been getting the vibe that "you don't care what people think" that I got from ABR.

Secondly, I am clearly doubting your AI town read, I think it is clear to see from my posting that I do not think AI is town so I'm not sure why you're feigning confusion.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?

[Yosarian2]

Bah, i keep screwing up the quote tags. Last post should have looked like this

I'm pretty sure I said why I didn't like your reads-list when I posted. You should go read my post again.

Ok, let me go back and see.

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.

So no, you really didn't give any real reasons, other then an n apparent dislike of lists.

You're right though, lots of people make reads-lists. Sometimes though, a reads-list just isn't required, or it doesn't say a lot or there is something else wrong with it. I have caught scum by them posting awful reads-lists before. You wouldn't be the first.

Except that was an awesome list, especally for page 4. And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.

It's not actually the 'making of the list' that's scummy. I mean, it still kind of is because nobody needs a reads-list on page 5 or whatever it was, but it's the fact that you felt the need to post it. You didn't need to post it, the only purpose of posting it is to look 'pro-town', especially as you later admit your reads are based mainly on gut.

I posted it because it's good to share your reads with the rest if the town. Reasons are less important then what the reads are.

And if you think I was trying to look pro-town by posting a bunch of town reads with no reasons, you're crazy. I expect random newbs who don't really understand the game to vote me when i do stuff like that. But your reaction was really weird.

I've cut the quotes out from ABR - go and look at what happened right before ABR started posting like that. I picked the fight with ABR, not the other way around.

That's reasonable. Frankly, there's a reason i labled the top half of the list "people i don't want to lynch right now" and not "town reads". I would not say i had a strong read on ABR that early.


Now I do, though, and I think my early gut-read on him was right.

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Fantastic. Now, tell me why these tells apply to AI and not me? Because I'm not seeing consistency in your reads.

Consistency is a scum tell.

Anyway, I don't suspect you for lack of scumhunting, i suspect you because you have done some weird things. It's not that you weren't scumhunting, it's that I don't really buy your scumhunting. A lot of the stuff you did early in the game feels weird, and your reaction to my lst really feels off.

And I certanly haven't been getting the vibe that "you don't care what people think" that I got from ABR.

Secondly, I am clearly doubting your AI town read, I think it is clear to see from my posting that I do not think AI is town so I'm not sure why you're feigning confusion.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?

[roflcopter]

ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.

How about Yosarian + KMD?

[Yosarian2]

[

Uh. What? I'm playing in an incredibly risky fashion to the point of recklessness here to try and lynch scum.

What? How is your play in any way reckless and how are you trying to lynch scum? You're voting a lurker, a lurker who you have no case on I should add.

Did you miss the part where I townread half the people in the game on page 4? I mean, obviously not since that's the excuse you gave for voting me.

OK, so this makes no sense at all. You

expected

to be attacked for your reads-list (cough *you're lying* cough), I attacked you, and you called me scum for it? Can you explain how that works when you was expecting to be attacked?

Of course i expected it. Some people always react badly to stuff they're not used to, especally newbies.

But that doesn't at all explain your reaction, which was much stronger then that and really made no sense at all, especally since you are not a newbie.

If you want to try to explain yoursrlf better, feel free, but your extreme reaction just feels fake and scummy.

Scum don't have to "take control of the game". If the loudest and most agressive players are town and they all fight each other, the scum can just stay out of the way and let them fight.

This is another comment in a growing list of comments that seem to directly contradict your read on me. Let's talk about that.

Not all scum play that way, of course. Did you really think that I was saying no scum are ever active, or that all scum have the exact same playstyle?

Scum are at least somewhat more likely then town to lurk and/or try to stay out of the spotlight. That is simply true. Of course some town lurk, and of course some scum are active and aggressive.

You attempt to find "contradictions" where there clearly aren't any is not really making you look better.

[roflcopter]

ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.

How about Yosarian + KMD?

how about you stop trying to deflect things back to kmd?

[roflcopter]

i'm waiting for yos to call me tricksy again if he says it a third time beetlejuice will appear

[roflcopter]

i'm also waiting for yos to stop burying himself in a stupid argument about reads lists and tell me in words why ai is a townread

[roflcopter]

to answer whoever wanted to know why i am townreading lowell and kop, lowell is seeing the same things i'm seeing (except that he needs to see the light on ai), and kop is a gut read

[roflcopter]

hey always innocent, at what point is the game mature enough for you to have scumreads instead of just scum-leans, equivocations and lurker votes?

[roflcopter]

multipass

[AlwaysInnocent]

hey always innocent, at what point is the game mature enough for you to have scumreads instead of just scum-leans, equivocations and lurker votes?

I'm getting there. I am just preventing the mistakes you make, by being overconfident about players.

[Yosarian2]

i'm also waiting for yos to stop burying himself in a stupid argument about reads lists and tell me in words why ai is a townread

He's not as hard a town read as he was a few pages ago. Still leaning town on him, though.

For one thing, if he was scum, I don't really think he would turn on me like that and vote me when i was the one defending him. That does not seem like something a scum worried about self preservation would do.

[roflcopter]

For one thing, if he was scum, I don't really think he would turn on me like that and vote me when i was the one defending him. That does not seem like something a scum worried about self preservation would do.

so much wifom

is there a second thing? or a third thing?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If BBT is indeed town, then it is likely that Yosarian is scum.

Why?

Both are town.

Yos really isn't town ABR - I would like you to join the Yos wagon.

VOTE: KMD

Naked votes are best. Why?

I missed that post. Nevertheless, my second point stands.

Second time you have done this and that makes me nervous.

He's probably reading it in a different tone than I am. I see someone going "hey we played a game together and now we're both here, cool". Maybe Yos saw more seriousness? I dunno. That's my best guess, but it definitely didn't come off as aggressive to me. I also don't think aggression is a town tell though, so meh.

What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him. The fact he stated that ABR could easily manipulate the meta but still called him town felt all kinds of wrong to me as well.

[texcat]

Prodge. I'm a bit behind and need to catch up, but won't have a chance until later tonight.

[Yosarian2]

For one thing, if he was scum, I don't really think he would turn on me like that and vote me when i was the one defending him. That does not seem like something a scum worried about self preservation would do.

so much wifom

is there a second thing? or a third thing?

Not really WIFOM. Person A calls person B town, person B votes person A. Person B is clearly does not care about trying to stay on person As good list. Which makes me thin AI cares more about scumhunting then survival.

He's also moving his vote around a lot in a way that feels townish, like he's really scumhunting.

There are a few other iffy things he's done since then though. I agree the KMD thing felt oppertunistic, and he's not reacting well to pressure. So he is down from a strong town read to a weaker town read.

I did explain my earlier game town read on him back in post 151.

[roflcopter]

What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him. The fact he stated that ABR could easily manipulate the meta but still called him town felt all kinds of wrong to me as well.

this is gold

[roflcopter]

He's also moving his vote around a lot in a way that feels townish, like he's really scumhunting.

this pretty much contradicts what he has actually stated he is doing with his votes, since he still refuses to scumread anyone

forget it, you're scum with him, i'll stop making you dance and help make you hang instead

unvote, vote: yosarian2

[roflcopter]

ai, come back to your bus vote on yos and i'll give you a townie brownie!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.

I see, so what you're saying is I said your reads-list was unnecessary, random, an attempt to look like you had reads (look pro-town) and an attempt to look busy (pro-town) but none of those constitute as problems to you? OK then.

That's the whole point, there was no need for you to share that reads-list at that point in the game. Page 4 reads-lists aren't worth shit.

Except that was an awesome list, especally for page 4. And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.

Except for all that stuff you just wrote about? OK.

I posted it because it's good to share your reads with the rest if the town. Reasons are less important then what the reads are.

No, it isn't. It's quite easy to infer people's reads from the way they talk about/to people. Reads-lists simply are not needed.

Consistency is a scum tell.

No, it really isn't. Reading different people differently for the same actions is scummy and shows a flaw in your thought process.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?

I could do, but I'm much more interested in getting you lynched right now.

ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.

You should absolutely join the Yos wagon.

How about Yosarian + KMD?

You seem to think Yos has a decent chance of being scum and if I remember correctly you spoke earlier about bigger wagon being more effective than one vote wagons? How about you join the Yos wagon?

Did you miss the part where I townread half the people in the game on page 4? I mean, obviously not since that's the excuse you gave for voting me.

You can't make your mind up can you. Depending on what you're talking about, your top half was 'town reads' or it was 'people who had something you liked', you can't just chop and change your opinion depending on what argument you want to try and present.

But that doesn't at all explain your reaction, which was much stronger then that and really made no sense at all, especally since you are not a newbie.

Why doesn't it explain the action? You expected to be attacked for your reads-list, and I attacked you. That seems quite a natural flow of events.

Not all scum play that way, of course. Did you really think that I was saying no scum are ever active, or that all scum have the exact same playstyle?

Scum are at least somewhat more likely then town to lurk and/or try to stay out of the spotlight. That is simply true. Of course some town lurk, and of course some scum are active and aggressive.

You attempt to find "contradictions" where there clearly aren't any is not really making you look better.

Of course you have to state that, otherwise you would have no reasons for thinking I am scum (even though you're still yet to put your vote where your mouth is).

There are clearly contradictions in your posts and how they correlate to your reads. I just showed you one.

[Yosarian2]

What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him.

Oh please. Have you ever played with Albert? He's not the type to trust you just because you call him town.

I get that most people can't read ABR. But he looks like town ABR this game.

Obviously my page 4 read was based on very little, my goal was just to skim everyone in the game and try to make a snap judgement on every single person. It's a good scumhunting technique.