Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Adaptive Heap]

Not_Mafia replaces MormonCoffee. Please welcome him!

I like the cut of his jib. Plus, his name must be indicative of his alignment in this game.

He seems like someone I can trust.

Alright, Champ. Here's your homework assignment. Spend two hours (or however long it takes) reading this until you realize why I might joke about taking a character and believing they're innocent based on their username. You don't have to laugh. You don't have to agree that it's funny. You just have to understand it.

Why did you make the comment?
It doesn't help you read anyone.

[Adaptive Heap]

My read on NM was "initial" as you say. I called it "early." IIRC it was based on 3 posts. So...of course it lacked substance. You have to start somewhere.

Mokay. I just read it as skating by and dropping a vote. With zero reasoning. That's scummy to me.

I'm finding it strange that you shift back to null on Not_Mafia because Plottin Kittehs had also apparently called out Rob - but fail to recognise your own pushes on Rob as factoring in to a vote that a potential scum-Not_Mafia might make.

I'm finding it concerning that you're not reading the thread closely. At the time that NM voted Rob, I hadn't pushed Rob at all. I had made one null comment on Rob when NM voted.

I stand corrected.

I'm leaning town on Rob myself, town on Frozen and I don't have much of an issue with FAQ's play currently but do want to see a bit more.

I can see Rob as scum or as conf biasing town. Frozen I have a town lean on. FAQ2 as usual doesn't give much to go on, but I don't like what I've seen. As scum he has a higher number of fairly benign questions with little follow up, as town he is more aggressive and takes more stances. See his ISO from 90 - 106 for fairly benign questions which haven't been followed up.

The other game I have with FAQ was this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=63370
Funnily, I can sort of see where you're coming from here. In that game I actually went to the effort of skimming some of his *other* completed games and found he was generally just not a talker.
But yes he does seem a bit more interested in trite this game compared to his lurky-but-pushy self in our last game.

I'm a maybe-town on you (I don't think mastin agrees with this) but am trying to figure out if I get your own reads. I'd like you to be more open about responding to questions that I ask. I agree with Frozen - you seem pretty cagey at times.

Maybe you should ask better questions. I get tired of questions which I've already answered (Frozen's specialty) or which are loaded with factually false premises (as above where you missed the timing of the pushes on Rob).

Me missing timing isn't something you want to get exasperated about. You're not the only person in the game and we're in this together regardless of alignment.

[KuroiXHF]

Not_Mafia replaces MormonCoffee. Please welcome him!

I like the cut of his jib. Plus, his name must be indicative of his alignment in this game.

He seems like someone I can trust.

Alright, Champ. Here's your homework assignment. Spend two hours (or however long it takes) reading this until you realize why I might joke about taking a character and believing they're innocent based on their username. You don't have to laugh. You don't have to agree that it's funny. You just have to understand it.

Why did you make the comment?
It doesn't help you read anyone.

Well you were causing such a fuss with me making a joke about Not_Mafia's username, so I wanted to point out how silly your argument was/is.

And it hasn't been two hours so I know you haven't done your homework.

[Adaptive Heap]

I was asking why you made the comment about Not_Mafia's username in the first place.

Also please don't patronise me. I don't find it funny or clever.

-t

[Not_Mafia]

Also please don't patronise me. I don't find it funny or clever.

-t

If it helps, your argument is stupid

[KuroiXHF]

Yeah. You know what? I'm not answering that question. Because I practically already answered that question. If you can't put a two piece puzzle together, I can't help you out.

[Adaptive Heap]

And again, I'm not sure how it helps you determine anyone's alignment.

Were you hoping for a pingback from Not_Mafia? You got one. How did you read it?

-t

[KuroiXHF]

Well now that I got it, I'm ecstatic. We're thinking of adopting a baby boy and naming him Milo.

</sarcasm> I made a joke. Wasn't looking for a huge response. Take a page out of Frozen Angel's book and let it go.

[Persivul]

Funnily

, I can sort of see where you're coming from here. In that game I actually went to the effort of skimming some of his *other* completed games and found he was generally just not a talker.
But yes he does seem a bit more interested in trite this game compared to his lurky-but-pushy self in our last game.

Why is it funny that we would both come up with similar meta reads on another player?

I'm not just being picky with that question, I have a point. I think I got an early scum rep with some people and my abrasive style keeps them from getting past that. But, if you objectively consider my entire contribution (such as the above on FAQ2) and my motivations you'll likely come to a different conclusion.

[Persivul]

Yeah. You know what? I'm not answering that question. Because I practically already answered that question. If you can't put a two piece puzzle together, I can't help you out.

Hear, hear.

[Persivul]

The Davsto wagon is hitting resistance, and

I don't think that's a coincidence

. In particular, I believe several people have said that commenting on flavor and having fun with it isn't scummy.

That's not the point. Commenting on flavor is fine. Not commenting on anything else for four pages despite looking at the game at least four times

is definitely scummy

. Characterizing the issues that I and multiple others take with Davsto as simply taking issue with the "fun with flavor" is a strawman.

If it's not a coincidence, what is it? That could imply that people are reading him as town, or that scum are purposely resisting the wagon. It's not clear to me from your post which you think it is.

[Rob14]

Please provide meta evidence for your statements about my meta, because it's just blatantly wrong. I'm super aggressive as scum. It's a hallmark of my play.

P-edit: I thought at the time that the Davsto wagon was hitting resistance because he was scum. No-one publicly said they had a town-read on Davsto iirc, so that option is highly unlikely. That wagon just kind of went caput for no reason.

[Rob14]

For that matter, you've specifically called me out for being aggressive toward you and confbiasing in this game. Then you say I match my scum meta because I'm not aggressive.

???????????

[Rob14]

Possibly lying, possibly conf biasing. You've had it in for me since your first post. I somewhat expected it because I had a perfect scum game in Blitz 1 which you modded, but I didn't expect it to go this far. Interestingly, in that game I was scum. Titus made a mistake D1, and I hounded her on it until she was lynched. In this game, I made a mistake, and you're intent on hounding me on it until I'm lynched.

If you're seriously suggesting that I'm only attempting to have you lynched because you won one of my games, then I'm both offended and generally confused. That makes no sense.

[Rob14]

I've pointed to a specific thing I didn't like that you did. I asked you for an explanation and made it very clear that I would reconsider in light of new information if you provided one. The idea that I'm just tunneling for no reason is crazy. You've replied to me directly multiple times and basically told me to go fuck myself when I asked you to simply explain your rationale. Oh wait - you literally

did

tell me to go fuck off one time.

And you have the audacity to say I'm tunneling/confbiasing? GIVE ME A REASON NOT TO SCUMREAD YOU. It's not like I'm shutting out new information. You're just refusing to provide it.

Here's a montage of some of the times Persivul has refused to do something as simple as explain how his reads have changed over time, to me and others. How is he still alive?

I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

Fuck you.
Bring it on.
I'm not concerned.

I intended to show that your 12.25 posting was better as a defense, but now that I look at it closer, it's pretty bad. Before the game I know I

wanted

you to be town so I could learn something about scum hunting, and I think that played into the post that you're pushing.

I'm trying to understand where that transition came from. If you were scum, it would be a convenient transition. If you were town, you'd have some rationale for it. So your roadmap to "get on the same page" is to explain to me clearly what you were thinking at the time you made the transition, if that's what you want to do. That doesn't mean you have to agree with your own rationale now - if you changed your mind on my posting, that's not scummy. But I need to understand what you were thinking then, or my scumread will persist (and probably strengthen, for that matter).

Reviewing that day I'm no longer interested in getting on the same page with you.

You play your way, I'll play mine. It's not uncommon to give people town reads on this site without an interrogation. You saw Rob and Broseiden do it, but for some reason you haven't followed up with them and are only pressuring me for it.

And bonus points for Persivul saying he's not avoiding scrutiny. LOL

Scum has a motivation to avoid scrutiny above all else.

And I have the highest post count in the game. I'm not concerned with avoiding scrutiny. Scrutinize away. Lynch me if you like, but playing like that you'll likely end up with a knife in your back yourself.

Come on! Really, do you expect me to buy that? Under no circumstances does it make sense for a townie to refuse to explain the process by which their reads changed. Maybe if night actions had already occurred, but we're on day one here. Be realistic.

[Persivul]

Please provide meta evidence for your statements about my meta, because it's just blatantly wrong. I'm super aggressive as scum. It's a hallmark of my play.

I'm not sure who you're talking to here, but...in 142 you said:

I routinely re-read old games of mine to identify differences in my town and scum meta and fix them. I find that openness is the best policy both for my town and scum games because it encourages people to read me based on motivations, not based on my meta, which I deliberately obscure.

So, you claim your meta is obscure when it suits you. But now, you say that aggressiveness is a hallmark of your scum play. This seems contradictory. Plus, you implied in 206 that you've been aggressive in this game, which you now say is scummy for you. Care to clear this up?

[Persivul]

Regarding Frozen I have to downgrade my lean town read to scummy side of null based on meta. It's not a lot to go on but FWIW here's a town and a scum game. The town game was more relaxed, the scum game was more aggressive. This game reads more like the scum game. Frozen actually seems more comfortable as scum than as town.

Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64070

Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156

[Frozen Angel]

SURE AGAIN ANOTHER ..... ...... WHO WANTS TO META READ ME. LET ME FINISH ANOTHER GAME BEFORE THIS ONE.

[Persivul]

I've pointed to a specific thing I didn't like that you did

. I asked you for an explanation and made it very clear that I would reconsider in light of new information if you provided one. The idea that I'm just tunneling for no reason is crazy. You've replied to me directly multiple times and basically told me to go fuck myself when I asked you to simply explain your rationale. Oh wait - you literally did tell me to go fuck off one time.

And yes, that one specific thing was sloppy. When I'm town I don't pay as close attention to such things.

And you have the audacity to say I'm tunneling/confbiasing? GIVE ME A REASON NOT TO SCUMREAD YOU. It's not like I'm shutting out new information. You're just refusing to provide it.

Consider my entire contribution rather than fixating on that one specific thing which you didn't like.

[Persivul]

If you're seriously suggesting that I'm only attempting to have you lynched because you won one of my games, then I'm both offended and generally confused. That makes no sense.

I'm suggesting that you started with a focus on me because you've seen me be successful as scum. I did the same thing with FAQ2. A player known to be successful as scum is obviously more of a threat than one who is known to be easy to read as scum, so it makes sense to pressure those early.

BTW, did you consider my results in the two games you modded?

As town, I was lynched D1.

As scum, I didn't get higher than L-4 the entire game.

That's because as scum I'm more careful with what I say, while as town I'm not trying to hide anything and so I'm not as conscious of what I say or how my votes transition.

[Rob14]

Please provide meta evidence for your statements about my meta, because it's just blatantly wrong. I'm super aggressive as scum. It's a hallmark of my play.

I'm not sure who you're talking to here, but...in 142 you said:

I routinely re-read old games of mine to identify differences in my town and scum meta and fix them. I find that openness is the best policy both for my town and scum games because it encourages people to read me based on motivations, not based on my meta, which I deliberately obscure.

So, you claim your meta is obscure when it suits you. But now, you say that aggressiveness is a hallmark of your scum play. This seems contradictory. Plus, you implied in 206 that you've been aggressive in this game, which you now say is scummy for you. Care to clear this up?

Aggressiveness is a hallmark of

both

sides of my play, not just my town side. I'm saying that your characterization that I'm not aggressive as scum, was not aggressive in this game, and therefore I'm scum is blatantly incorrect. I challenge you to find any game where I was passive as scum, because it just never happens. Or town, for that matter.

[Rob14]

Regarding Frozen I have to downgrade my lean town read to scummy side of null based on meta. It's not a lot to go on but FWIW here's a town and a scum game. The town game was more relaxed, the scum game was more aggressive. This game reads more like the scum game. Frozen actually seems more comfortable as scum than as town.

Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64070

Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156

Oh, a sample size of 2.

rolls eyes

[Persivul]

I'm saying that your characterization that I'm not aggressive as scum, was not aggressive in this game, and therefore I'm scum is blatantly incorrect.

Where did I say that?

[Persivul]

Regarding Frozen I have to downgrade my lean town read to scummy side of null based on meta.

It's not a lot to go on but FWIW

here's a town and a scum game. The town game was more relaxed, the scum game was more aggressive. This game reads more like the scum game. Frozen actually seems more comfortable as scum than as town.

Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64070

Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156

Oh, a sample size of 2.

rolls eyes

Yes, I knew you'd say something like that, hence the disclaimer bolded above.

[Rob14]

If you're seriously suggesting that I'm only attempting to have you lynched because you won one of my games, then I'm both offended and generally confused. That makes no sense.

I'm suggesting that you started with a focus on me because you've seen me be successful as scum. I did the same thing with FAQ2. A player known to be successful as scum is obviously more of a threat than one who is known to be easy to read as scum, so it makes sense to pressure those early.

BTW, did you consider my results in the two games you modded?

As town, I was lynched D1.

As scum, I didn't get higher than L-4 the entire game.

That's because as scum I'm more careful with what I say, while as town I'm not trying to hide anything and so I'm not as conscious of what I say or how my votes transition.

Persivul, here's my post about your scum team's play after my game finished:

6) The scum team was

incredibly

obvious. I'm not just saying this due to modsight. Persivul egged ETL to self-hammer and then said she should be banned for it. Ocean was incredibly opportunistic. Ranger did not scumhunt in a single post, and there were serious relational tells between him and Persivul (major coaching from Persivul, in particular). Persivul scum-read Ranger all game, but kept pushing counter-wagons whenever a wagon was starting on Ranger and

never

placed a vote on Ranger. This isn't a scum win; it's a town loss.

Tell me more about how I thought your scumplay was so good that you were the biggest threat in the game over exceptionally good players like Mastin, Mala, etc. Come now. This is just getting silly.