Newbie 1673: University of Mafiascum Class 108 - D4- OVER!

[newbieinmafia]

Re 168: I am okay with your answers (the last quote is after the vote though) and I am inclined to believe your claim because I have seen it happen in the few games I read. But I still don't like that vote and strike me as opportunistic so I like my vote the way it is right now.

About soul, I also have nothing to say yet, sorry.

[Workdawg]

Alright, this is going to be a few posts, because I have a lot of thoughts.

First off, some smaller, one-off thoughts...

Ok. What do you think of kahlan and that whole interaction?

....
Her and Drixx: they don't seem like a scum team because she probably would have ask her questions in mafia PT.

This is actually a very dangerous assumption, if she (Kahlan) is scum she SHOULD be asking all her questions in this thread to make sure that she looks like a newb so that any potential slips would be viewed as potential newb tells and not scum tells

.

I feel Newbieinmafia had very valid point especially for a newbie game. I think workdawg gives a scummy response. First off this is a newbie game is it not? isn't the point to ask questions to get familiar with the game? and what newbie or I should say a newbie with little to no experience in this game would even think of posting questions in the thread like how workdawg has stated would be what he think he is in the mind set of a scum. He is basically set this 'Dangerous Assumption' up to hurt the town because how are we ever going to be safe to ask questions if we are accused of being scum when we ask questions. This statement just rubs me the wrong way. It is why for now I VOTE: workdawg

@Kahlan - even though I said scum probably wouldn't want to stand out much, it's pretty weak reasoning, which is why I attribute it to gut feeling.
also, I think you are misunderstanding workdawg's post. and his sig is not alignment indicative~ he will have that sig whether he drew town or scum.

Okay it should be clear to everyone by now that I don't have as much as experience in this game. This is my actual first game and it's a little hard for me to keep up with everyone. I still stand by my vote for now. @newbie and @ee wither or not if he was drawn as scum his sig has to have some significance. In my mind it probably has some personal significance to him and who he is as a person because if it didn't then why keep the signature? Granted that is not a big reason to call him out as scum that is why I had my second reason. Now what I'm gathering is most of you agree with workdawg statement but I still don't. In my mind he is saying that to create doubt in the town. Now everyone will zero in on the newbies asking question sincere or not. Even if you don't plan to do it and you don't see anything wrong with what workdawg said you will probably analyze every question asked by a newbie to find a deeper hidden message that might not be there. Just how EE did to me in the beginning.. He analyzed every one of my question and then accused me of budding with Drixx and being scum because I was asking questions as a newbie that I needed answered.. Alright in this game I figured we are suppose to break down and analyze our follow townies in order to find scum but isn't scums job to create doubt and confusion in our minds. For now I still feel like he is scum and I feel like his mind set is that of scums.

I'm not saying AT ALL that asking questions is scummy. I am simply saying that given the assumption of a Kahlan/Drixx scumteam, it would make more sense for you (Kahlan) to ask your questions in the main thread and on the scum QT.

The base assumption of newbie's question was that you were scum with Drixx, the IC. So if we elaborate from there, there are really two options.

1. You ask your questions to your scum partner (in this case Drixx) in the scum QT. In this case, the town knows nothing. It makes zero difference to town.
2. You ask your questions in the game thread. Since we were specifically talking about questions that you asked to the IC (that he is obligated to answer truthfully and regardless of alignment) they can really only lead to you looking like a newbie.

Overall, my point is that in case 1. There is no affect of you posting your questions to the scum QT because as the town, we aren't going to see it so we couldn't possible get a scum tell from your questions.
In case 2, your questions are only making you look like a newb, which you are. In that case, I think generally speaking people will be a little bit more forgiving to a newb. Those questions didn't contain any actual game content, just meta stuff, so no chance of a slip. The only potential effect of posting your questions is to gain some newbie cred, which possibly comes along with more forgiveness.

[Zar]

Day 1, Votecount 4

Extrapolated Eagle (3): Drixx, TheDominator37, Workdawg
Drixx (2): Usted, N e s s
N e s s (1): Newbieinmafia
Workdawg (1): Kahlan

Not Voting (2)

: soulmonarch, Extrapolated Eagle

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline

: Tuesday January 12, 2016 2:30 PM  New York Time. (GMT-5)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2016-01-12 14:30:00)

TheDominator37 is V/LA until Wednesday

[Workdawg]

@Ness

*trys to hold back laughter*
*can't*
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQSsrvsszcs[/youtube]

I'm a Vanilla townie and

you should all just take my word for it

~I don't see either of them as an easy target, i just saw either one as scummers. Both were argueing and both have made a few things that stuck out to me so far, so thats why i went after them.

I also don't see how me making a RQS is scummy? It was supposed to help us get somewhere because all that was happening at the time was pointless rambling. I'm not here to cover my butt, thats the truth.

Can you explain this post? What's so funny that you posted a youtube video? What prompted you to claim? Why should we "just take your word for it" that your are a VT?

...
That should answer your 2 questions, but i'm probably going to look like scum no matter what i say right now.

You answered newbie's two questions in the above quote (I removed it to save us the wall of text). Why would addressing newbie's concerns make you look scummy? Do you think your answers are making you look scummy? Are you concerned about looking scummy?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

So the Dom comes back today.

Hi!

VOTE: the Dom

How have you been? What are your thoughts on the thread so far?

[newbieinmafia]

Now that soul mentioned it, I went back to ISO Usted. When I first read 132 and 138, I was thinking 'Huh?' but I didn't dwell on it, so now I am gonna go back to it.

@Usted - About 132, why would ness use RQS to divert attention away from Drixx train when he, himself, got on it (also when he did RQS, the focus was on EE)? and if ness/drixx are scum team, why would drixx call out ness for RQS when everyone else is just going along with it? And about 138, it doesn't make sense for ness to bus drixx when it's not obvious that drixx will get lynched.

I am not saying ness/drixx scum team is impossible but I am not seeing the connection.

[Usted]

@newbie

He started the RQS about two posts after I laid the first vote on drixx. Ness could have jumped on the drixx train in case he got lynched to appear very pro town? I mean, that's entirely possible. I also stated that in all likelihood my guess was wrong. Day1 finding both scum isn't exactly common (especially for me).

Anyways I'm away from home on a trip until Saturday, posting will be light.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

From what I've heard and my experience, scum are most often in the middle of the wagon

[N e s s]

@newbie

He started the RQS about two posts after I laid the first vote on drixx. Ness could have jumped on the drixx train in case he got lynched to appear very pro town? I mean, that's entirely possible. I also stated that in all likelihood my guess was wrong. Day1 finding both scum isn't exactly common (especially for me).

Anyways I'm away from home on a trip until Saturday, posting will be light.

So you're going to say that i'm scum because i voted for drixx? And at the time, nobody was suspecting me so i don't know how that would make me Pro town?

I'm suspicious of usted, i'm going to answer all questions on me later. I'm busy right now.

[N e s s]

@usted

"Whoa he's scum but we shouldn't kill him now!"

Who does that? If i'm scum in your eyes, why aren't you voting me?

And if you're onto me for voting Drixx, why are you STILL voting him?

[soulmonarch]

From what I've heard and my experience, scum are most often in the middle of the wagon

I agree that this is the most common scenario. However, especially early on D1, scum could have a lot to gain by starting -- or at least pushing -- a wagon on their team mate.

Assume, for instance, that Ness is partnered with EE:

- EE is already established as suspecting Drixx in 50.
- Ness establishes suspicion on both EE and Drixx in 72.
- Ness hops on EE wagon in 72. (Whether this starts the wagon or pushes it is irrelevant to the supposition.)
- Ness busses EE through until 102 where he gives it up, despite it being made clear that they both still disagree and suspect each other.

This is an incredibly safe maneuver overall, because we all know that no one is getting lynched that early in the game.

The goal would be to set up EE as an overly aggressive player. Because as I noted last time, scum would be crazy to draw so much attention to themselves, right? So EE remains in some small amount of danger, but really not any worse than any run of the mill aggressive townie might be. Meanwhile, Ness has had a chance to buss without actually getting his partner lynched. Now EE has an established persona and can accuse people indiscriminately to muddy the waters, either causing a no-lynch D1 or maybe even hitting gold and getting the town to lynch their own. At the same time, Ness can play the somewhat calmer traditional scum role, stepping in to push wagons in the middle and try to keep enough suspicion off him to make it to the endgame.

Too complicated, maybe? But everyone here (aside from Kahlan) appears to have some experience, and scum *does& get daytalk, which would help immensely.

So I'm gonna go out on a limb and...

VOTE: N e s s

[N e s s]

*sighs*

No way to defend myself right now because i have no idea how to.

[newbieinmafia]

185 was an interesting read.
But EE already said scum are usually in middle of the wagon so if Ness were to push wagons in the middle, wouldn't that make it obvious?

No way to defend myself right now because i have no idea how to.

since I don't have a lot of experience, I can't give you much advice but what I would do is rebut the case against you and then go on with scum hunt to help the town. whether others believe your defense/argument is up to them.

[Workdawg]

*sighs*

No way to defend myself right now because i have no idea how to.

Well, you could start by responding to post 178

[Kahlan]

Alright, this is going to be a few posts, because I have a lot of thoughts.

First off, some smaller, one-off thoughts...

Ok. What do you think of kahlan and that whole interaction?

....
Her and Drixx: they don't seem like a scum team because she probably would have ask her questions in mafia PT.

This is actually a very dangerous assumption, if she (Kahlan) is scum she SHOULD be asking all her questions in this thread to make sure that she looks like a newb so that any potential slips would be viewed as potential newb tells and not scum tells

.

I feel Newbieinmafia had very valid point especially for a newbie game. I think workdawg gives a scummy response. First off this is a newbie game is it not? isn't the point to ask questions to get familiar with the game? and what newbie or I should say a newbie with little to no experience in this game would even think of posting questions in the thread like how workdawg has stated would be what he think he is in the mind set of a scum. He is basically set this 'Dangerous Assumption' up to hurt the town because how are we ever going to be safe to ask questions if we are accused of being scum when we ask questions. This statement just rubs me the wrong way. It is why for now I VOTE: workdawg

@Kahlan - even though I said scum probably wouldn't want to stand out much, it's pretty weak reasoning, which is why I attribute it to gut feeling.
also, I think you are misunderstanding workdawg's post. and his sig is not alignment indicative~ he will have that sig whether he drew town or scum.

Okay it should be clear to everyone by now that I don't have as much as experience in this game. This is my actual first game and it's a little hard for me to keep up with everyone. I still stand by my vote for now. @newbie and @ee wither or not if he was drawn as scum his sig has to have some significance. In my mind it probably has some personal significance to him and who he is as a person because if it didn't then why keep the signature? Granted that is not a big reason to call him out as scum that is why I had my second reason. Now what I'm gathering is most of you agree with workdawg statement but I still don't. In my mind he is saying that to create doubt in the town. Now everyone will zero in on the newbies asking question sincere or not. Even if you don't plan to do it and you don't see anything wrong with what workdawg said you will probably analyze every question asked by a newbie to find a deeper hidden message that might not be there. Just how EE did to me in the beginning.. He analyzed every one of my question and then accused me of budding with Drixx and being scum because I was asking questions as a newbie that I needed answered.. Alright in this game I figured we are suppose to break down and analyze our follow townies in order to find scum but isn't scums job to create doubt and confusion in our minds. For now I still feel like he is scum and I feel like his mind set is that of scums.

I'm not saying AT ALL that asking questions is scummy. I am simply saying that given the assumption of a Kahlan/Drixx scumteam, it would make more sense for you (Kahlan) to ask your questions in the main thread and on the scum QT.

The base assumption of newbie's question was that you were scum with Drixx, the IC. So if we elaborate from there, there are really two options.

1. You ask your questions to your scum partner (in this case Drixx) in the scum QT. In this case, the town knows nothing. It makes zero difference to town.
2. You ask your questions in the game thread. Since we were specifically talking about questions that you asked to the IC (that he is obligated to answer truthfully and regardless of alignment) they can really only lead to you looking like a newbie.

Overall, my point is that in case 1. There is no affect of you posting your questions to the scum QT because as the town, we aren't going to see it so we couldn't possible get a scum tell from your questions.
In case 2, your questions are only making you look like a newb, which you are. In that case, I think generally speaking people will be a little bit more forgiving to a newb. Those questions didn't contain any actual game content, just meta stuff, so no chance of a slip. The only potential effect of posting your questions is to gain some newbie cred, which possibly comes along with more forgiveness.

Okay I can see your point @workdawg but with that assumption of being scum and asking questions to look like a newb or asking general questions because I am a newb how is one to spot the difference and if they did wouldn't it be to late for forgiveness from the other players? forgiveness doesnt save someone from getting voted for. Now I agree and understand that it would be smart for someone to play up the newb role if they were scum but saying I (Kahlan) Should be posting questions in the thread if I were scum even though I'm not scum makes it almost seem like I would be scum by asking questions as a newb intentional by you or not. however I feel at least for me I'm not really safe to ask questions as a newb. Now that could have been the case before your comment as well but it is more so now that you had made that comment. I however don't fully believe you are scum right now so i'm just going to just place you under FoS for now... UNVOTE: @workdawg

[Kahlan]

From what I've heard and my experience, scum are most often in the middle of the wagon

I agree that this is the most common scenario. However, especially early on D1, scum could have a lot to gain by starting -- or at least pushing -- a wagon on their team mate.

Assume, for instance, that Ness is partnered with EE:

- EE is already established as suspecting Drixx in 50.
- Ness establishes suspicion on both EE and Drixx in 72.
- Ness hops on EE wagon in 72. (Whether this starts the wagon or pushes it is irrelevant to the supposition.)
- Ness busses EE through until 102 where he gives it up, despite it being made clear that they both still disagree and suspect each other.

This is an incredibly safe maneuver overall, because we all know that no one is getting lynched that early in the game.

The goal would be to set up EE as an overly aggressive player. Because as I noted last time, scum would be crazy to draw so much attention to themselves, right? So EE remains in some small amount of danger, but really not any worse than any run of the mill aggressive townie might be. Meanwhile, Ness has had a chance to buss without actually getting his partner lynched. Now EE has an established persona and can accuse people indiscriminately to muddy the waters, either causing a no-lynch D1 or maybe even hitting gold and getting the town to lynch their own. At the same time, Ness can play the somewhat calmer traditional scum role, stepping in to push wagons in the middle and try to keep enough suspicion off him to make it to the endgame.

Too complicated, maybe? But everyone here (aside from Kahlan) appears to have some experience, and scum *does& get daytalk, which would help immensely.

So I'm gonna go out on a limb and...

VOTE: N e s s

I think you might be on to something @Soulmonarch. In the beginning I would have been all for the theory of EE being scum but that could have been because I was a bit upset at him. Right now I'm still on the fence about EE ...

Speaking of EE what happen to you? you has seemed to quieted down a bit in this last page. Although you came back to make a vote..and no surprise it was the dom you voted for. Now I dont want any trouble from you EE.. We already know I had a bunch of that in the beginning. I just wasn't surprised by you voting for the dom wither it was to be funny because dom was suppose to be on today or if you was really voting for him for reason I'm not sure of. I have noticed that you like to vote for the people who are voting for you. So The Dom watch out you might be next in the EE attack

[Kahlan]

Okay people my head hurts.. it might be from thinking about all this scum business or the headache I have..I'll probably blame the

thinking

headache. I'll be back on tomorrow.

[soulmonarch]

@ Newbie

... EE already said scum are usually in middle of the wagon so if Ness were to push wagons in the middle, wouldn't that make it obvious?

EE made a very valid point: Scum is

usually

in the middle of a wagon. (Note the emphasis.)

The main goal of scum is to be above suspicion whenever possible. After the lynching, everyone will try and figure who actually DROVE the wagon to Lynchville. Sure, the two people most suspected are typically the guy who rented the car (first person) and the guy who actually tossed the body in the trunk (the last person.) Everyone else in the wagon shouting encouragement has a little bit more plausible deniability. But make no mistake, if the lynchee flips town, every single person in that wagon is going to get scrutized pretty heavily.

On the morning of D2, we will have a corpse (two, actually) on our hands to provide our first bit of real evidence. Since everyone on the wagon will be suspected, scum only has to be somewhat less suspicious than the townies who participated. If they think they can do that while starting a wagon or hammering, they'll try it. But usually the middle is a lot safer.

But hey, safe doesn't win wars, right? And scum makes as many mistakes as town does, they are just better informed.

------

@ Kahlan

Now I agree and understand that it would be smart for someone to play up the newb role if they were scum but saying I (Kahlan) Should be posting questions in the thread if I were scum even though I'm not scum makes it almost seem like I would be scum by asking questions as a newb intentional by you or not.

Okay people my head hurts.. it might be from thinking about all this scum business or the headache I have..I'll probably blame the

thinking

headache. I'll be back on tomorrow.

Ah ha! I see you have discovered the wine in front of me! Trust me: Both cups are poisoned. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If you stop asking your questions, anyone who implicated you can now say: "See? She stopped when I confronted her! I must be right!" If you continue asking the questions, they may continue to implicate you... but at least you will have your questions answered!

[Zar]

Day 1, Votecount 5

Extrapolated Eagle (3): Drixx, TheDominator37, Workdawg
Drixx (2): Usted, N e s s
N e s s (2): Newbieinmafia, soulmonarch
TheDominator37 (1): Extrapolated Eagle

Not Voting (1)

: Kahlan

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline

: Tuesday January 12, 2016 2:30 PM  New York Time. (GMT-5)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2016-01-12 14:30:00)

[Kahlan]

@ Kahlan

Now I agree and understand that it would be smart for someone to play up the newb role if they were scum but saying I (Kahlan) Should be posting questions in the thread if I were scum even though I'm not scum makes it almost seem like I would be scum by asking questions as a newb intentional by you or not.

Okay people my head hurts.. it might be from thinking about all this scum business or the headache I have..I'll probably blame the

thinking

headache. I'll be back on tomorrow.

Ah ha! I see you have discovered the wine in front of me! Trust me: Both cups are poisoned. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If you stop asking your questions, anyone who implicated you can now say: "See? She stopped when I confronted her! I must be right!" If you continue asking the questions, they may continue to implicate you... but at least you will have your questions answered!

@soulmonarch
Haha! You hit the nail right on the head! I now must put my big person pants on and take the poison by asking my questions. Sure it can be a slow and painful death in the end but you are right.. At least I'll have my questions answered!

[Zar]

Prodding Drixx and TheDominator37

[Zar]

I will be lax with activity in the game until Jan. 2nd because of the upcoming holiday. Happy New Year!

[Zar]

Mod will be V/LA until Jan. 2nd

[Extrapolated Eagle]

But hey, safe doesn't win wars, right? And scum makes as many mistakes as town does, they are just better informed.

------

I actually disagree with this. I think scum does not make nearly as many mistakes as town does for two reasons:

1. Their only goal is to stay alive longer than everyone else: so they don't have to be as active as town, or as wordy; I've found they're less likely to respond with their emotions, and they are more likely to check their posts over a couple times to make sure they don't actually say something that could bring a lot of suspicion their way. The pressure town has to put on other players to really get reads out of them has to be unreasonable and less than logical, otherwise the thread would remain quiet with people very calmly discussing mafia theory.

2. They're better informed so they don't have to really do any of the things town does to get reads out of people. They already know everyone's alignment and so their reads can magically be whatever won't get them lynched later.

@Kahlan
You could say that I've voted for people who have voted for me, except you would have to forget about Ness(who voted for me but I have not voted) and newbie (who I have voted for but has not voted for me). But it is false to state that I am/have been voting people because they have been voting me. I have given a plethora of reasons for each of my targets, and, as it is still (at least in my mind) RVS (as I have not completely sorted all the players yet), my votes are following people who I have not yet sorted in some form or fashion.

And the fact that you bring up how quiet I've been as well as the fallacious argument that my votes have merely been OMGUS, but somehow fail to mention drixxs absence (which I should note that drixx has been straight up absent from the game, instead of just quiet) is a point towards this being told to you in scum private chat. I think you likely would have noticed these other things should you have come to this discovery on your own.

Who would tell you this, I am not sure, there are two people that come to mind immediately from begging response from the guy pushing the Dom wagon and distracting from the absence of the IC.

I am waiting on mr dominator, at the moment, and quite patiently, but should he be absent much longer my patience will wear thin. The RVS vote drop and go as well his continued absence makes me more and more likely to believe we have a bad case of lurker scum.

[Workdawg]

From what I've heard and my experience, scum are most often in the middle of the wagon

I agree that this is the most common scenario. However, especially early on D1, scum could have a lot to gain by starting -- or at least pushing -- a wagon on their team mate.

Assume, for instance, that Ness is partnered with EE:

- EE is already established as suspecting Drixx in 50.
- Ness establishes suspicion on both EE and Drixx in 72.
- Ness hops on EE wagon in 72. (Whether this starts the wagon or pushes it is irrelevant to the supposition.)
- Ness busses EE through until 102 where he gives it up, despite it being made clear that they both still disagree and suspect each other.

This is an incredibly safe maneuver overall, because we all know that no one is getting lynched that early in the game.

The goal would be to set up EE as an overly aggressive player. Because as I noted last time, scum would be crazy to draw so much attention to themselves, right? So EE remains in some small amount of danger, but really not any worse than any run of the mill aggressive townie might be. Meanwhile, Ness has had a chance to buss without actually getting his partner lynched. Now EE has an established persona and can accuse people indiscriminately to muddy the waters, either causing a no-lynch D1 or maybe even hitting gold and getting the town to lynch their own. At the same time, Ness can play the somewhat calmer traditional scum role, stepping in to push wagons in the middle and try to keep enough suspicion off him to make it to the endgame.

Too complicated, maybe? But everyone here (aside from Kahlan) appears to have some experience, and scum *does& get daytalk, which would help immensely.

So I'm gonna go out on a limb and...

VOTE: N e s s

This is definitely an interesting theory. It's something that I mentioned at the end of my post 174 where I came to the same conclusion after analyzing the Drixx wagon. You elaborated a bit more on it, obviously, but it's definitely something to look back on if either of them flips scum later on.

@ Newbie

... EE already said scum are usually in middle of the wagon so if Ness were to push wagons in the middle, wouldn't that make it obvious?

EE made a very valid point: Scum is

usually

in the middle of a wagon. (Note the emphasis.)

The main goal of scum is to be above suspicion whenever possible. After the lynching, everyone will try and figure who actually DROVE the wagon to Lynchville. Sure, the two people most suspected are typically the guy who rented the car (first person) and the guy who actually tossed the body in the trunk (the last person.) Everyone else in the wagon shouting encouragement has a little bit more plausible deniability. But make no mistake, if the lynchee flips town, every single person in that wagon is going to get scrutized pretty heavily.

On the morning of D2, we will have a corpse (two, actually) on our hands to provide our first bit of real evidence. Since everyone on the wagon will be suspected, scum only has to be somewhat less suspicious than the townies who participated. If they think they can do that while starting a wagon or hammering, they'll try it. But usually the middle is a lot safer.

But hey, safe doesn't win wars, right? And scum makes as many mistakes as town does, they are just better informed.

Huh, I thought I had made a comment about scum placement on wagons in the previously mentioned post 174, but I guess I didn't. I hope people realize it was implied with the comments about Ness wagon hopping, but I guess I forgot to elaborate on that part.