Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Persivul]

There's a piece of flavor in my role PM that may or may not (I know nothing about the show) help me. I PM'd the mod to ask if I'm allowed to say what I want to say, or if that would be considered quoting a PM.

[Persivul]

Remember it for what?

I would think a green flip would alter those.

[KuroiXHF]

Posts 308-313, especially 308.

308 wan't my post and there is no question there. what do youwant me to answer for?


I never changed my goal post. I just picked myself as example of his not-trying to have scum hunting conversation with anyone and I showed why he is not doing that.

I pointed that post number because he explained it much better than I.

I still kind of want to do Davsto, but really anything outside of {Kittehs/Rob/Elsa/NotMaf/Kuroi} is cool with me.

Why none of this group?

Kittehs and Elsa are strong town, Rob is weak town, NotMaf and Kuroi because ~reasons~

I don't understand this post. You say kittehs and Elsa are strong town, Rob is weak town and then you list our names. Do you believe we're also weak town? Null? Scum?

Kuroi is my next scum read that I wish to focus on. Assuming that Persi is scum, Kuroi's 157 would make so much sense if they were scum buddies together. Showing and interest in the scum read but at the same time defending him? What I find most telling about this post is that it came after he unvoted me, which means he's not sitting a on vote. And so if he has a slight scum read, why not place a vote there for the time being? The unexplained reads in his 426 shows scum not knowing what to do in the game and needing to fill a post up with some reads to make it look like he has something important to tell us about the game. Speaking of this, I like Plottin Kittehs' questioning of his reads in their 465. It shows a genuine interest in understanding the reads, this is demonstrated by the quality of the questions as oppose to simply asking "can you explain those reads please". And so I can happily give Plottin Kittehs a town read based on that, the rest of their overall posting is giving me a town vibe too. Anyways, back to Kuroi, I do not like the transition of votes from Rob to Dav in his 501. Not only did he not pressure Rob after voting him, he was coaxed into a lengthy discussion about Frozen Angel's play (who, by the way, is his scum read as stated in his read lists) which resulted in these three posts 433, 434 and 438. Kuroi what were your thoughts on FA after this discussion, you appear to still scum read her but have given no definitive stance after your conversation with her. Instead you placed an opportunistic vote on Dav, after Persi voted for him. Where did your discussion with Frozen Angel lead to and how did you manage to transition from that to a vote on Dav?

I'm actually having a tough time understanding why people are constantly liking Persi to being on the same side as me. I said I had a scum read on him (I do not now) and that he shouldn't be voted based off something not grounded in logic. For my vote to Davsto, I explained that Rob was scummy. I still believe that, but Davsto is useless to this game. The way I figured it, Rob is either mafia, or townie. Either way, he's participating. I'm sorry if you don't like how I operate, but some players are aggressive and some are not. There are also times I choose to be aggressive and there are times when it's not needed. I don't have enough to be aggressive right now.

My post with Frozen Angel wasn't all that productive. I still have her as slightly scum, but closer to a null read. There are a lot of non-gameplay factors that I'm trying to avoid such as her lack of English fluency, for example, that may cause difficulties. She still does give me a scummy vibe and I'll keep an extra sharp eye out for her, but she's only #3 or #4 in the people I'd lynch right now, but I only have one vote to cast.

I'm intentionally not reading the Kuroi case right now because it looks like it relies heavily on associative tells. Let's wait until the flip, m'kay?

I'm okay with that, one scum at a time.

You're killing me, smalls.

[Persivul]

There's a piece of flavor in my role PM that may or may not (I know nothing about the show) help me. I PM'd the mod to ask if I'm allowed to say what I want to say, or if that would be considered quoting a PM.

Mod shot me down, so feel free to hammer.

[Rob14]

Pers, you don't have any objection to me making public your claim, do you? I've known about your crumb for a while and it doesn't affect my read/decision, but I think it's optimal to let others consider it.

[Persivul]

As I'm pretty much a sure lynch I suppose it won't hurt. If it changes enough opinion to spare me, I'll have to hope for doc protection.

[Rob14]

I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

F

uck you.

B

ring it on.

I

'm not concerned.

Pers crumbed FBI Agent.

C

ome on!

R

eally, do you expect me to buy that?

U

nder no circumstances does it make sense for a townie to refuse to explain the process by which their reads changed.

M

aybe if night actions had already occurred, but we're on day one here.

B

e realistic.

And because it amused me, I crumbed that I knew about his crumb in response to his trying to draw my attention back to it. I was also hoping he'd stop drawing attention to it on the off chance he was town, which he did - not sure if it was because of my crumb of the crumb or not though.

[Rob14]

I do expect intent to hammer and a minimum of a 12 hour wait period before a hammer, by the way. A quick hammer is a scum claim. I would like reactions to this information.

[Persivul]

Did you catch the soft?

[Plottin Kittehs]

Scum has a motivation to avoid scrutiny above all else.

And I have the highest post count in the game. I'm not concerned with avoiding scrutiny. Scrutinize away. Lynch me if you like, but playing like that you'll likely end up with a knife in your back yourself.

I thought you were saying that you were vengeful and were going to shoot him.

And when you refused to claim at L-1 I started to worry you might be a scum supersaint.

--P

[Persivul]

As you see now, the knife refers to SK, who kills with a knife. This is my first attempt at crumbing/softing so I apologize if it was clumsy.

[KuroiXHF]

I'm not sure I understand this. Is this a Doctor Who reference?

[Plottin Kittehs]

does your role pm give any hints as to what an SK might look like / what form they might take that you could share with us in paraphrased form? alternatively, what's your take on the earlier "maybe we're all doctors / maybe some of us aren't doctors" discussion?

Also the flavor speculation seems pointless to me. Do we have any reason to think that it's more than dressing to fairly standard roles? I don't see any indication of that in my role pm.

The wiki says that FBI Agent is a very rare role. I had to look it up to see what it did. How did you figure out that you were an FBI Agent?

I looked on site search and the role was used twice in 2015, not counting marathon games, and 3 times in 2014 (again not counting marathon). Why did you think you had a fairly standard role?


The wiki page hasn't been updated since 2011. Does anyone know if this part is valid in current site meta?

"As a result, games with FBI Agent are somewhat evenly split between those that have Serial Killers and those that don't. Unless there is evidence of an SK potentially being in the setup, FBI Agent is essentially a Named Townie."

--P

[Persivul]

@ kuroi: No, it's not Dr Who related. I'm an FBI agent. I investigate each night for serial killer only. (Actually the flavor name is different, but it's an FBI agent.)

[Adaptive Heap]

I dropped in to prod-dodge but considering Persivul's at L-1 I should probably make a decision on the slot.

Bit of background - mastin had actually an associative tell of some kind on Davsto / Persivul which wasn't explained in our QT (and she's only been involved in the game the one time she posted - and left half a dozen posts for me privately). But it's kind of an opposite tell from what you're saying you have from meta, Rob. She said that she didn't find Persivul scummy off his play, but that based on his relationship with Davsto she had him as very VERY likely scum in that case. I don't actually know what the associative tell is about - but she was scumreading Davsto pretty heavily (obviously because of the vote, and I'm completely happy with that read, if not so sure about the associative).

Something that triggered me in relation to that was Persivul's quick townread on Davsto the moment Davsto posted - well anything resembling content really. Post 471 is very thematically straightforward - Persivul's town, and Rob is possibly scum for pushing him. He's already voting Rob for a different reason which he stated in Post 122, so adding another couple of reasons allows him to stick with that vote and not really need to branch out risking questioning on other actual opinions.

Davsto's done pretty much nothing today aside from that one post. I'd prefer to lynch Davsto over Persivul myself but won't oppose a Persivul lynch if the choice is between Rob and him.

Persivul - I'm a bit sketchy on your top-tier town on Davsto, too. Not considering the possibility he could be WK-ing you?

Couple of other thoughts:
I need much much more from FAQ. I think Persivul's observation on FAQ's play is actually good. He seems to always be a sparse poster but in this game he reads as extremely timid compared to the game I played with him. With FAQ's current posts in-thread, I'd lynch here.
I dislike Soren's Post 535. Something about the phrasing feels off to me, like forced natural if that makes sense, but I will certainly be taking them up on their offer to interact when I have time after new year's stuff. Their other posting has seemed bitey enough. Back to null from a townish lean for me pending further info.

Anyway, prod-dodge and I have to work Saturday/Sunday and next week so will be somewhat around but hopefully mastin's around at some stage soon to give some thoughts.
Happy New Year by the way!

-t

[Persivul]

@ Plot - I don't know the flavor and so I can't tell if there are hints about the SK. Mod shot me down on using a single word from my role PM so I'm reluctant to say anything more.

Standard does not equal frequent. It's standard in that I have the exact ability given in the wiki for an FBI agent.

I'm hoping the last part isn't accurate, i.e. if there's no SK then I was basically screwed and made a named VT.

[Plottin Kittehs]

I don't know the flavour either but I was hoping someone else might. It's not worth getting modkilled over though.

I'd ask you which doctor number you were but the wikipedia article for my own doctor number is written in fanspeak instead of english and I doubt any of the other articles are more accessible.

Can't think with all these fireworks. mala said in our hydra pt that she'd be around friday so i'll leave her a note about this development.

--P

[Persivul]

Persivul - I'm a bit sketchy on your top-tier town on Davsto, too. Not considering the possibility he could be WK-ing you?

Again, it would be much easier for him to take Rob's side or to take no side in me v. Rob. Further, he gave good reasoning, quoting posts and showing Rob lying, then moving the goalposts. Third, town is usually lynched D1, so people don't get much credit for opposing a D1 town lynch - there's not much to be gained from WKing D1.

Are you concerned that Rob is still full steam ahead, requesting intent despite my claim? Further, consider the claim. It doesn't prove that there's an SK per the wiki, but it strongly suggests it. Since Rob knew the claim, he could have shifted focus today and waited to see if there are two kills, which would support my claim. If only one kill, he could have revealed the crumb and pushed me tomorrow. You could argue that FBI agent is a safe fakeclaim for the SK himself, but my play in no way indicates me as SK. I've never played SK but I imagine you have to remain pretty well under the radar to be successful.

[Persivul]

I do expect intent to hammer and a minimum of a 12 hour wait period before a hammer, by the way.

Actually I retract that he requested intent - this isn't necessarily a request. The argument to back off until D2 is still valid though.

[Rob14]

@ kuroi: No, it's not Dr Who related. I'm an FBI agent. I investigate each night for serial killer only.

(Actually the flavor name is different, but it's an FBI agent.)

This is making me reconsider. My gut over the last page is telling me I'm wrong about Pers, and my gut is more often right than not.

Which is annoying because it's basically a reset for me, but it is what it is.

UNVOTE:

I'd much rather go for a Davsto lynch, who's also been horrible, in the hopes that his lynch clears up the Pers question. I don't know what the associative tell is from mastin, but I consider my tell to be nearly 100% that they can't be scum together, unless Pers is deliberately obscuring his meta on a level that I don't think is possible. If Dav flipped scum, I'd move Pers over to town as a result.

[Adaptive Heap]

Persivul - I'm a bit sketchy on your top-tier town on Davsto, too. Not considering the possibility he could be WK-ing you?

Again, it would be much easier for him to take Rob's side or to take no side in me v. Rob. Further, he gave good reasoning, quoting posts and showing Rob lying, then moving the goalposts. Third, town is usually lynched D1, so people don't get much credit for opposing a D1 town lynch - there's not much to be gained from WKing D1.

See I don't get this argument that things are "much easier" for scum and therefore they do them. I didn't think his reasoning was good, in much the same wasy that I didn't think that Not_Mafia's reasoning was good.

Davsto is re-hashing reasons that you've already given yourself and presenting them as his own.

Sure. Here's one example. When clearly

caught in a lie

, instead of admitting it and retracting the charge, you

move the goalposts

.

Frozen Angel

moving the goalposts

too, going from "you're not asking me questions" to "you're not asking me questions

I like

, when any town player would just answer those questions when they're presented to them on a silver platter.

Moving the goalposts

. He started off saying "moved off me" and talking about votes, and then once Persivul points out

he was lying about the votes

, he backpedals and says "nonono I meant pressure and people off the wagon saying I'm town".

Ultimately I question the actual content which he brought in his catch-up post and wonder if you're just blind to it because he said what you wanted to hear.
I don't think any sane scum-player would actually lie about vote-counts so that's not a compelling argument and "moving goalposts" is pretty buzzword-y unless the scum advantage is clearly explained by the accuser.
I think Rob's been scumhunting and trying to figure things out and it was pretty "easy" for Davsto to scan through Rob's ISO and find a couple of things that he could present as scummy, then posted them.

My WK comment also related to that fact that you two have been the main two players arguing with each other today.

Are you concerned that Rob is still full steam ahead, requesting intent despite my claim? Further, consider the claim. It doesn't prove that there's an SK per the wiki, but it strongly suggests it. Since Rob knew the claim, he could have shifted focus today and waited to see if there are two kills, which would support my claim. If only one kill, he could have revealed the crumb and pushed me tomorrow. You could argue that FBI agent is a safe fakeclaim for the SK himself, but my play in no way indicates me as SK. I've never played SK but I imagine you have to remain pretty well under the radar to be successful.

Well ignoring your intent question - my experience of an SK was entirely the opposite (Saki in FE:A completely spamming the thread and being one of the reasons we ended up getting the largest day in a Large game - which still actually stands O_o
I had a townread on Saki there as well and my thoughts on good SK-play since, have been that you scumhunt. A lot. Your main advantage is that you can be seen as pro-town because

you don't know the scumteam

.

[Rob14]

Pers, the reason I don't consider two kills to confirm is that FBI Agent is a great fake claim for an SK.

Think about it. You get the two kills to "confirm". Scum don't kill you because you can't investigate on them. It's pretty airtight.

I thought about your claim and how it could/couldn't be confirmed, and I concluded that there was no feasible way to confirm it without assuming that an SK wouldn't lie. And that's obviously not a good assumption to make.

[Rob14]

Oh wait, reading comprehension. Had I kept reading I would have seen you said that - duh.

Anyway, still, I did consider that.

[Persivul]

This is making me reconsider. My gut over the last page is telling me I'm wrong about Pers, and my gut is more often right than not.

Which is annoying because it's basically a reset for me, but it is what it is.

UNVOTE:

That transition is as awful as anything I've done in this game.

[Adaptive Heap]

Is there any reason you're not voting Davsto right now Rob?

I don't quite get your mental reset mechanics considering you have a meta tell saying one is not scum if the other is, and asked which was the more likely.