Micro 567: Kids with Guns - Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

Nothing any of them have said is technically "wrong" or "scummy" per se. GuiltyLion and Khan have an oddly robotic feel to their posts. They seem to have no trouble pointing out things that could potentially be scummy but there's a missing link that would really give their logic trains anything satisfyingly readable.

Look, I'm fine with you scumreading me for a "robotic feel" to my posts, I get that a fair amount.

But if you think there's a missing link to my thought processes, why don't you ask me about what you think is missing to see if you can find it?

Because when you start saying things like this:

I see a couple GuiltyLion town reads bouncing around the thread. Would anyone care to explain them?

without talking to me directly,

it begins to read like you want to discredit the idea of me being town more than you want to genuinely attempt to sort me.

[GuiltyLion]

advantage is basically the towniest person in the thread at this point and I'm waiting for arcangel to justify that terrible vote on him, and an answer to my question from Kublai Khan.

I also don't like this:

You just hid behind a claim that's easily faked by scum. You valued your skin over the town.

coming from Kublai Khan immediately after he said this:

The biggest criticism I always get in early game play is that I blow things out of proportion. I'm trying to change that by acknowledging that the charge I've levied is over-blown in nature.

[advantage]

I see a couple GuiltyLion town reads bouncing around the thread. Would anyone care to explain them?

i am not really sure yet but a small town read on him so far. since he is trying to start conversation so we can move on and post, and get a possible mafia to lynch. however a thing i can think of is that post #90 seemed like a bad reaction to the vote.

i don't think your description of his posts as having an "oddly robotic feel" is accurate anyway.

[Not_Mafia]

VC 1.04

Kublai Khan (0)-

Raskolnikov (0)-

Suzune (2)-

Marquis, advantage

Marquis (1)-

Kublai Khan

GuiltyLion (1)-

ArcAngel9

advantage (0)-

TellTaleHeart (0)-

ArcAngel9 (2)-

Raskolnikov, Guilty Lion

Not Voting (2)-

Suzune, TellTaleHeart

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2016-01-29 01:00:00)

- Jan 29th 01:00 GMT

[Not_Mafia]

ArcAngel9, Marquis and Kublai Khan have been prodded

[TellTaleHeart]

But if you think there's a missing link to my thought processes, why don't you ask me about what you think is missing to see if you can find it?

I also get that sometimes and that's not how I work.

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Kublai Khan]

I also don't like this

Explain.

[GuiltyLion]

In 63 you acknowledge that you are often criticized for blowing things way out of proportion. Your approach to correct this is to acknowledge that your charges are overblown.

Then in the next post you go and make an even more overblown charge by saying advantage "valued his skin over the town".

It felt like an intentional effort to provoke a response from advantage, which you are clearly self-aware of given 63. I can see this possibly coming from town as a method of scumhunting, but it also worries me because if you are scum and someone reacts poorly, you can spin their reaction to push them as scummy rather easily.

Basically those two posts are a weird mix of transparent and not transparent and I don't feel like I trust you enough yet to understand where you were going with 64.

Overblown charges in general are a warning sign to me because scum is more likely to dress things up as scummier than they actually are.

[Marquis]

khan voting me is ew

anyone voting me is ew

[TellTaleHeart]

In 63 you acknowledge that you are often criticized for blowing things way out of proportion. Your approach to correct this is to acknowledge that your charges are overblown.

Then in the next post you go and make an even more overblown charge by saying advantage "valued his skin over the town".

It felt like an intentional effort to provoke a response from advantage, which you are clearly self-aware of given 63. I can see this possibly coming from town as a method of scumhunting, but it also worries me because if you are scum and someone reacts poorly, you can spin their reaction to push them as scummy rather easily.

Basically those two posts are a weird mix of transparent and not transparent and I don't feel like I trust you enough yet to understand where you were going with 64.

Overblown charges in general are a warning sign to me because scum is more likely to dress things up as scummier than they actually are.

>:\
You could've said that without anyone asking. But at least now I know most of your thought process is subsurface.

UNVOTE:

[Marquis]

you guys I'm not feeling TTH anywhere near as town as usual here.

this means half of you are my scumreads.

I'm deteriorating.

[TellTaleHeart]

You've had one game with me outside a hydra and you were scum. :S

Also, I kind of need posts for my method to work and it's been really slow going.

[Suzune]

I also don't like this

Explain.

What about you, where are you standing right now?

[Raskolnikov]

FOS: Suzune for being wishy-washy and non-committal.

Advantage feels genuine newbtown, but I don't have strong feelings on a lot of the other people this early. I thought 110 was authentic for what it's worth. In contrast, KK's posts are weird this game and I feel his focus has been on info/technicalities.

I should be more active from this point onwards btw.

[advantage]

In 63 you acknowledge that you are often criticized for blowing things way out of proportion. Your approach to correct this is to acknowledge that your charges are overblown.

Then in the next post you go and make an even more overblown charge by saying advantage "valued his skin over the town".

It felt like an intentional effort to provoke a response from advantage, which you are clearly self-aware of given 63. I can see this possibly coming from town as a method of scumhunting, but it also worries me because if you are scum and someone reacts poorly, you can spin their reaction to push them as scummy rather easily.

Basically those two posts are a weird mix of transparent and not transparent and I don't feel like I trust you enough yet to understand where you were going with 64.

Overblown charges in general are a warning sign to me because scum is more likely to dress things up as scummier than they actually are.

>:\
You could've said that without anyone asking. But at least now I know most of your thought process is subsurface.

UNVOTE:

i'm having trouble seeing

your

thought process here... ;-,

so when you first voted guiltylion, was that because you didn't understand his concerns about Kublai Khan in #101? you said that you didn't work like that so it felt a bit like you were just wanting him to explain by voting, even though someone else asked him to explain not you? the unvote makes it look like you were just waiting for him to answer with something like that, yet you were building up to vote him for a while earlier, and what guiltylion says in #108 doesn't really seem like it should explain your concerns about him earlier. okay that didn't make much sense but i want to work out what you are thinking here because the unvote looks awkward...

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry, I haven't had time to really sit down and wedge this game into my head space. Let me try to resolve that.

Going down the line..

advantage - Post 16 is still super weird and I can't understand where it comes from. Since then, he's claimed VT with little experience playing mafia, so I really don't understand why someone with a VT role would make the argument that "towns don't like to be caught either". It doesn't even make sense even coming from a newb-town context.

His posts seem earnest, but his theory questions make me feel like he's playing (and hiding behind) the newbie card. Or maybe it's accurate because he doesn't seem to have any understanding of mafia short-hand. But I get a negative impression of his posts maybe because it feels like he's bogging down the game with wanting everything explained to him so he can pick apart every assumption. Not because those assumptions are necessarily wrong, but because he doesn't have the experience to understand the assumption.

Basically, my gut says scum, but my head says newb-town. He's the wild card of the game.

ArcAngel9 - I have a leaning town read on him. He has reads and acts on them, but he doesn't have any strong follow-up to his votes. Time will tell.

GuiltyLion - I need to answer him. I'll do it in my next post. The reaction to the advantage claim feels really weird. Like, why focus on that? I don't even see the need to try to figure out who is which mafia because it doesn't really matter. We aren't ever going to get to a point where we are trying to specifically lynch the suicide bomber.

I'm also finding it strange that he says he's not sold on advantage being genuine in his claim, but he's pursuing two people who had scum reads on advantage. It gives me the feeling that he might be hiding behind dogma. I have a neutral to scum lean.

Marquis - The vote on ArcAngel9 was pretty bad. He did address my vote on him and I'm not sure why I still have it sitting there.

Raskolnikov - I'm not really understanding the strategy here from any angle. If e's town, why apply the pressure only to learn what he could already figure out (advantage is a newbie). If e's scum, why force a claim and attack the person that gave the alley oop? I'm not sure why e has a townread on GuityLion. I want more posting because e's still a wild card.

Suzune - I think her overall views on Mafia Theory and Best Practices are pretty horrible, but I also think she's pretty town.

Unvote
Vote: GuiltyLion

[Kublai Khan]

BTW, ArcAngel9 is completely correct about the downside of claiming VT.

It's a bad move for town

because it gives the mafia better odds to hit a power role in a random nk. An outed VT cannot provide camouflage for power roles and

thus becomes a useless thing

.

Yes but is it scum?

I see newbies prematurely claim VT in Newbie games all the time and I'm always going to be more suspicious of the people that advocate to lynch them solely on those grounds.

It could be scum. There are so very, very, very, few absolutes in mafia.

In 63 you acknowledge that you are often criticized for blowing things way out of proportion. Your approach to correct this is to acknowledge that your charges are overblown.

Then in the next post you go and make an even more overblown charge by saying advantage "valued his skin over the town".

It felt like an intentional effort to provoke a response from advantage, which you are clearly self-aware of given 63. I can see this possibly coming from town as a method of scumhunting, but it also worries me because if you are scum and someone reacts poorly, you can spin their reaction to push them as scummy rather easily.

Basically those two posts are a weird mix of transparent and not transparent and I don't feel like I trust you enough yet to understand where you were going with 64.

Overblown charges in general are a warning sign to me because scum is more likely to dress things up as scummier than they actually are.

Okay, two things.

One, it feels like you're painting me with a broad "this is scummy" brush, but there's literally nothing there.

You're accusing me of doing something which could potentially be done by scum. That's the nature of the whole game. Everything could potentially be done by scum. That's not really a valid reason to "not like" what someone is doing.

Second, why are you isolating the scenario where I am the only one that could take advantage of a "poor reaction"? When I pressure a newb (or someone whom I think responds poor to pressure) it's also to learn from the reactions of everyone else to that poor reaction.

I am trying to tone down my overblown style because I've been told that it makes me unpleasant to play with. "Tone down" does not mean to "eliminate completely". I can't put a lock on my toolshed.

[ArcAngel9]

received prod. sorry mod
this game is so stalled I don't have much inputs yet. I am reading guilty as scum because I don't see his reason to jump into my wagon, it looks like easy vote of a scum.

he should be lynched today. with that said I am okay with my vote on him unless if anyone else have better theory on other wagons, I will rethink about it.

[GuiltyLion]

ArcAngel9 - I have a leaning town read on him. He has reads and acts on them, but he doesn't have any strong follow-up to his votes. Time will tell.

Can you explain this read? It seems very shallow compared to the level of effort put into your other reads, and I'm not sure why you are so quick to townread ArcAngel when I see nothing town in her ISO.

I don't even see the need to try to figure out who is which mafia because it doesn't really matter. We aren't ever going to get to a point where we are trying to specifically lynch the suicide bomber.

So is this the thrust of your case against me - me thinking advantage is probably not suicide bomber?

We aren't trying to specifically lynch either mafia role, but it's a given that the suicide bomber will bomb as soon as they feel like they are about to be lynched. That's the only point I was trying to make - if advantage seriously believed he might get lynched, he probably would have bombed there. It wasn't a full read on advantage, who I consider my strongest townread now.

One, it feels like you're painting me with a broad "this is scummy" brush, but there's literally nothing there.

You're accusing me of doing something which could potentially be done by scum. That's the nature of the whole game. Everything could potentially be done by scum. That's not really a valid reason to "not like" what someone is doing.

Second, why are you isolating the scenario where I am the only one that could take advantage of a "poor reaction"? When I pressure a newb (or someone whom I think responds poor to pressure) it's also to learn from the reactions of everyone else to that poor reaction.

First I'm not voting you, I don't have a strong read on your alignment yet. Part of the reason I called it out was to see how you would respond.

If something "potentially done by scum" is not a valid reason to dislike something, then what would you consider a valid reason to dislike something?

I didn't say you could be the only one who could exploit a poor reaction, but you were the one provoking it with your loaded accusation. I'm mostly trying to generate more content and see how people react to things, because there's hardly been anything alignment-indicative so far.

[GuiltyLion]

I am reading guilty as scum because I don't see his reason to jump into my wagon, it looks like easy vote of a scum.

he should be lynched today.

This is literally trash. My vote is on you because you tried to justify your advantage vote on the basis of him claiming VT, rather than a genuine belief in him being scum.

Answer my question please, since you ignored it:

do you think advantage is scum?

[GuiltyLion]

Claiming VT is bad.. It minimizes scum chances to hit VT's. Even if you're telling truth.. youre as good as dead.

^Quoting this again to show what I'm talking about

how is advantage "as good as dead" if he is truly a VT? Given that you literally just said scum won't attack him the sentence before. This thought process doesn't make any sense. This post is the kind of post that scum make when they want to try to drive mislynch wagons through to completion.

[Kublai Khan]

Can you explain this read? It seems very shallow compared to the level of effort put into your other reads, and I'm not sure why you are so quick to townread ArcAngel when I see nothing town in her ISO.

There are two descriptions of her actions.

1) She had a read on advantage. She stayed with her vote and explained why. (town)

2) She is keeping her vote on advantage to try to force a mislynch. (scum)

I simply don't see the second one because she simply hasn't been trying to convince people to join her on an advantage wagon. She just has an opinion that you (and others) disagree with.

Keeping a vote on someone that the rest of town disagrees with and not being actively aggressive about it is a zero gain plan for scum. So, it's not likely to be scum.

So is this the thrust of your case against me - me thinking advantage is probably not suicide bomber?

We aren't trying to specifically lynch either mafia role, but it's a given that the suicide bomber will bomb as soon as they feel like they are about to be lynched. That's the only point I was trying to make - if advantage seriously believed he might get lynched, he probably would have bombed there. It wasn't a full read on advantage, who I consider my strongest townread now.

Okay, this is useless and scummy for two reasons...

One, it's busy-posting. It's similar to IIOA, except it's not even information. It's not fluff either. It's just... words. You're wording. "Look at all the words I'm wording!". It doesn't contribute anything to the game.

Two, it's poor reasoning. If advantage had posted a minute after Raskolnikov and said "Woah, don't hammer I'm VT" then sure whatever. You might have a point. But it was a half-hour. advantage had plenty of time to properly count the votes (game was literally two pages) and then decide to fakeclaim. I imagine a Suicide Bomber would be hyper-aware of the number of votes on them.

Is this the basis of your townread on advantage?

If something "potentially done by scum" is not a valid reason to dislike something, then what would you consider a valid reason to dislike something?

"Probably done by scum"

[GuiltyLion]

One, it's busy-posting. It's similar to IIOA, except it's not even information. It's not fluff either. It's just... words. You're wording. "Look at all the words I'm wording!". It doesn't contribute anything to the game.

I'm responding to what I understand to be your case on me:

Like, why focus on that? I don't even see the need to try to figure out who is which mafia because it doesn't really matter. We aren't ever going to get to a point where we are trying to specifically lynch the suicide bomber.

I posted to explain my thoughts better regarding this point, and now you're just calling it words.

This feels like a disingenuous attack from you - am I not allowed to clarify and answer your question to help you read me accurately?

So to steer this conversation somewhere productive:

why do you think I'm scum?

because clearly there is a miscommunication here.

Two, it's poor reasoning. If advantage had posted a minute after Raskolnikov and said "Woah, don't hammer I'm VT" then sure whatever. You might have a point. But it was a half-hour. advantage had plenty of time to properly count the votes (game was literally two pages) and then decide to fakeclaim. I imagine a Suicide Bomber would be hyper-aware of the number of votes on them.

This is basically exactly why I said at the time:

I'm pretty sure he's at L-2, not L-1. I'm not completely sold on advantage being genuine with his claim

but if he did think he was gonna get hammered then he probably would have suicide bombed if he's the bomber.

Is this the basis of your townread on advantage?

No, my townread comes from basically everything he's posted since my 30.

[Marquis]

will read soon.