SAGA FRONTIER MAFIA (GAME END)

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Oh, I know it is. I'm just making fun of her for her outrage over someone in a hydra not doing something they really should do to make it easy to follow things, when she isn't doing something herself. That's all.

It's super easy to tell mollie and Titus apart. That's not always the case though. Either hydras should be courteous and ensure it's easy to determine who is saying what at all times, both by posting in hydra all the time AND signing their posts, or everyone should just do the best they can and not demand that others be punished for not exhibiting the same courtesy they themselves fail to exhibit.

That's all. It's not even important, not game relevant, it was just something that popped in my head and I felt like saying. Moving on.

ABR, why was DGB town for so long to you? What changed to make you doubt her?

-Cerb

pedit: I think people are quite certain lowkey is town(I'm not certain why, to be honest), and are afraid of being forced to mislynch lowkey in order to get to flum.

[Sensei]

Because if lowkey is real then being a BG for scum makes no sense.

[Fluminator]

I love how Sensei obviously doesn't read things very carefully too.

Pot calling kettle black.

Does anyone object to us killing Shiro tonight to do what ZZZX would have?

Yes. We should get the obvious scum first. We can worry about this conftown thing later. There's probably 2 scum left, and the only way I see sensei or zulfy as scum is if Shiro is scum which would make up two right there. If we're later in the game and we still have two scum left, then we should maybe worry about it.

I dunno drixx. Part of me thinks your reaction was okay. Because I did kinda not really stay engaged with the party chat.
My thought process was to give some other weaker townreads the chance to adventure, though. And try and solidify my reads on them via a neighborhood environment. Because it's easier to read people with two lines of communication. Zulfy has been giving me townvibes, plus the fact that everyone pushing him is because of an anti-town play. Which is just that, antitown. Basically gut.

I didn't think zzzx would die because he still felt lynchable and I don't know why scum keep leaving abr alive. Things that I need to think on.

Part of it though is that I was skeeved at your calling one of sky/flum scum, thing. I dunno - in the off chance sky is town and think that push is pretty bad.
And when it comes to the thread you've been far less engaged than I have let's be honest.

I think the Skybird OR Flum dichotomy is probably false. I didn't like how Flum went from super sure that Skybird was scum to appearing to have cold feet. Regardless of how yesterday payed out, Flum

could have

hammered Skybird and didn't. That looked a lot to me like someone who wanted someone else to do it. Skybird's reactions to what went on yesterday gave me flashbacks to SMITE. I'm the first person who says that what happened in a prior game cannot possibly have any bearing on what alignment someone got assigned in the current game ... but there is some psychological value to how people react to certain stressors, and Skybird either learned how to fake it or she's town.

ZZZX was going to try and confirm Shiro/Sensei(you)/Zulfy all at once, one way or the other, last night. He's the most obvious and logical kill choice scum have made all game. I'm not at all surprised. I've got a theory about ABR being left alive. I'll keep it to myself for the moment because it needs thinking about.

As for engagement: It doesn't matter if you post a lot but your posts make it clear you haven't read and understood what other people have posted. Likewise, it's a problem if you read and take notes on everything, but never do anything with it. Perhaps we can each borrow something from one another and both get better.

Also where am I putting you down or emotionally manipulating you? Like what?

Post #8484

Someone who's upset at Sensei for apparently not reading posts, this looks really hypocritical.
For the final time (and you can keep ignoring it) she was at L-2. Varsoon even said that "even if I counted the vote wgeurts made it still wouldn't be enough" meaning he didn't count it either way.
You're claim that I got cold feet is absolute garbage and your desperation to press that is making you look really bad.
Not only that but your order of events are wrong and at first I thought it was a mistake but even after clearing it up you're still pushing it makes me think you're intentionally being manipulative. This apparent "stump Flum if he's wrong" didn't even come out until after I didn't quickhammer so saying that made me get cold feet is factually wrong. Why you're ignoring this I don't know.
And you still have made no posts where I got cold feet outside my apparent refusal to quickhammer.
I'm done engaging with you until you get some honesty or read posts.

I'm not sure why skybird decided to roleblock DGB, though. Now that you mention it because there was better people to block that we told her to. So it does kinda smell like a last minute gambit type thing to try and buy sky some townpoints. But meh.

At the end of the day, I told her if she's town, she should use her own judgement on who to block, because that's the only way she has a shot of stopping the scum kill.

And she chose to block someone who both looks scummy and who has implied she doesn't have any night actions to screw up, which makes perfect sense.

Why do you keep defending Sky? Other than that weak role related reason you had, do you have anything else?

Actually, I lied. If ABR is going to be lame, it should go to Drixx, honestly. He's basically the only slot who I am absolutely positively certain is town.

-Cerb

pedit: mollie, nobody is suggesting that we lynch you. It would be idiotic to lynch you before your IC claim can be tested. Drixx is just thinking out loud since he no longer has a place to store his thoughts at that will ensure he is heard even in the event he dies.

peditx2: Hmm. I hope you're right Sensei.

I would probably vote Zulfy as MC before Drixx at this point.

Do you think we should tell TCC to stump Flum? Since he is the only one who can bypass Lowkey's bodyguard.

Actually Varsoon said a stump would redirect too. I forget where.

[Albert B. Rampage]

DGB can easily be caught if scum via game mechanics. There's no point in pressuring a lurker.

If she has a role that makes people hated and didn't claim it then she's probably alone.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Yes, he said a stump would redirect. He also said anyone with anything that bypasses normal protections, as our stump does, would bypass the bodyguard.

-Cerb

pedit: Probably alone? What do you mean ABR?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Given recent events, and I'm sorry if you can't answer, but could a treestump that "ignores regular protection" treestump a bodyguard or would it treestump the target of the treestump?

If a treestump ignored protection, then it would also ignore the bodyguard protection as a similar kill would.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I mean scum, not alone. I'm in transit sorry

[Albert B. Rampage]

I called ZZZX was town the entire damn game even when he tried to lynch me man. I was going to protect him last night so he could rolecop shiro and confirm if sensei and zulfy are town. I had it all figured out and then Zulfy sabotages the town.

He should either replace out or get lynched.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Because if lowkey is real then being a BG for scum makes no sense.

This is textbook outguessing the mod, isn't it? Didn't you say we shouldn't do that?

Flum: Drixx is being dumb and conflating the two events. Trust me. There is no scum motivation in what he's doing, he's simply confused one reason why you didn't vote for another. The L-1 time he's talking about is when he double voted, because with his double vote+wgeurts vote being counted(which we don't actually know if that would hvae happened) sky would have been at L-1, and you could have hammered. He's not wrong about you having the opportunity, but he is confusing the timing of the conversations that occurred.

-Cerb

[Sensei]

Eh. You're probably right but that just seems like such a terrible role if flum is scum and lowkey town.
And flums play leans town anyway.

[Sensei]

I called ZZZX was town the entire damn game even when he tried to lynch me man. I was going to protect him last night so he could rolecop shiro and confirm if sensei and zulfy are town. I had it all figured out and then Zulfy sabotages the town.

He should either replace out or get lynched.

Why the fuck didn't you push his lynch yesterday then?

[Sensei]

Like if we were gonna policy him that was the best time.

[Drunken Pirates]

Oh, and yes, it also implies they have a kill of some sort/may have a kill of some sort at some point. IF you think that post by Varsoon was in any way prompted by DP.

-Cerb

It's almost certain DP is one of the "more than one" who inquired.

Assuming I would have gained a kill last night if I had hammered Skybird (neither confirming nor denying), I would have asked the party for their top 3 scum reads and decided based upon that. It's a hypothetical though ... it didn't happen.

uh

we didn't. you are lying.

and if you are scum aligned and YOU are the 1 who pmed varsoona and then trying to use the mod communication against us that is breaking the spirit of the game. we wld never ask that cos we wld never need to.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Mollie, he's making assumptions. He obviously doesn't know what you asked, but based on the timing of what Varsoon said and the context of your previous posts, it was a reasonable assumption to make.

Sensei: probably because he was on V/LA?

-Cerb

[Fluminator]

Because if lowkey is real then being a BG for scum makes no sense.

This is textbook outguessing the mod, isn't it? Didn't you say we shouldn't do that?

Flum: Drixx is being dumb and conflating the two events. Trust me. There is no scum motivation in what he's doing, he's simply confused one reason why you didn't vote for another. The L-1 time he's talking about is when he double voted, because with his double vote+wgeurts vote being counted(which we don't actually know if that would hvae happened) sky would have been at L-1, and you could have hammered. He's not wrong about you having the opportunity, but he is confusing the timing of the conversations that occurred.

-Cerb

It could be he's just actually confused, but yesterday when I pointed it out he still went to push it and didn't read what I said. (And responded by saying I wanted to hammer ABR or something?) If he was town I would expect him to actually read stuff. And today his reads have basically flipped on Sensei, then brought up something about ABR being scum, and now throwing shade on DP? Does he do this as town?

[Drixx]

@Flum - It doesn't matter; you thought you could hammer and didn't. You realize you are critiquing a post where I'm saying I don't like the "either skybird or flum must be scum" thinking, and then go on to give reasons why Skybird and you are probably town. You realize I put both of you in my probably town pile right?

Oh, and yes, it also implies they have a kill of some sort/may have a kill of some sort at some point. IF you think that post by Varsoon was in any way prompted by DP.

-Cerb

It's almost certain DP is one of the "more than one" who inquired.

Assuming I would have gained a kill last night if I had hammered Skybird (neither confirming nor denying), I would have asked the party for their top 3 scum reads and decided based upon that. It's a hypothetical though ... it didn't happen.

uh no we weren't. you are lying through your goddamn asshole. why the lie drixx? it sounds like you are the 1 who is scared.

but I think the obvsly most intelligent, optimal play to do here is to lynch the IC before they have a chance to be mod confirmed that way you know that they are the IC.

Umm... I was speculating. Speculation by definition cannot be a lie. I also never for a moment suggested we lynch you or anything. I just thought it was interesting that at least two people were concerned about it but felt the need to ask privately.

Your slot seemed probable since one of you was role fishing me and I didn't just give you the info.

And Cerberus has it spot on. I'm going to be a lot more stream of consciousness in the main thread because I don't have any other place I can leave random thoughts that might help if I get killed. It's absurd how well Cerb knows me.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Because if lowkey is real then being a BG for scum makes no sense.

Both town and scum have OP abilities and there are two third parties. It makes sense.

[Fluminator]

I object. Please check your PMs.

I've scoured the thread.
I've checked votecounts since the start of the day.
I checked votecounts since my most recent one.
Even if Wgeurt's out-of-hydra vote was counted, you never hammered Skybird.

Wgeurts didn't count and I also pointed this out to Drixx which he ignored too.
I'm seriously thinking Sky/Drixx team right now.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Because if lowkey is real then being a BG for scum makes no sense.

This is textbook outguessing the mod, isn't it? Didn't you say we shouldn't do that?

Flum: Drixx is being dumb and conflating the two events. Trust me. There is no scum motivation in what he's doing, he's simply confused one reason why you didn't vote for another. The L-1 time he's talking about is when he double voted, because with his double vote+wgeurts vote being counted(which we don't actually know if that would hvae happened) sky would have been at L-1, and you could have hammered. He's not wrong about you having the opportunity, but he is confusing the timing of the conversations that occurred.

-Cerb

It could be he's just actually confused, but yesterday when I pointed it out he still went to push it and didn't read what I said. (And responded by saying I wanted to hammer ABR or something?) If he was town I would expect him to actually read stuff. And today his reads have basically flipped on Sensei, then brought up something about ABR being scum, and now throwing shade on DP? Does he do this as town?

Yes. He is a paranoid man. He could do it as scum though, but his suspicions are so in line with ones I've had in my head, but been reserved on because of certain circumstances making them seem improbable, that it feels very appropriately like town drixx.

-Cerb

[Albert B. Rampage]

Let me start off by saying good riddance and thanks Itlepip! Well, now I don't think that your claim was bogus. Mega WindBlast and Shadow Servant is something that makes sense wrt flavor and Skybird may have Shadow Servant already or may get it later. But I still have a lingering suspicion on you, because of the discrepancy between your story and Sky's story, which is still not making sense to me. One of you seem to be lying and your Day Vig claim definitely falls in your favor.

So let me ask you this one last time, do you have to get Blue out of the game for you to win with us or you can win along with Blue? I know that you have mentioned that your win condition is the same as everyones, but I just want to make it 100% clear. As my major concern wrt you guys is, I am not able to understand who is lying.

Spoiler: ABR's case on me

He starts off with a FOS on me (5533), which is bs because VI is not related to experience. Neither is it related to Language. It is more of a person's mentality and playstyle. Some even consider ABR as a VI for playing like he does, infact even in my last game there was a moderately experienced player who played like a VI. He gave so many scum tells, that we couldn't relate it to being town.

That said, I have explained my read on Diamond pretty clearly in my posts. And I think ABR didn't read my posts before jumping on me with that 'characterization of Diamond is extremely suspicious' bs is silly. I have said what I have observed and I had said it a long time ago that DS is a slot that we should Vig, its just that I found better targets to scum hunt, and expected scum DS to slip up badly sooner or later. I don't understand what is so difficult to understand in that.

His vote on me is meh. He says that I am trying to break a 'comfortable stalemate' in the Sky-Itlepip thing. Bro, why are you comfortable around them? And why are you believing everything that Itlepip is saying? On one hand he is talking about the hated votes being a problem (5469), and on the other hand he is not open to see that Itlepip could be scum with Flum? That was my question to him really. And why he wasn't scum hunting Flum, as much as he is scum hunting DS or Kling. We have a double lynch remember? So we can very well clear the Sky-Itlepip-Flum set and also lynch one of the lurkers today, so what is the problem here?

If Pip were scum, and had a dayvig, he could justify using it on Skybird saying he is so convinced she is scum that he had no choice.

This statement is not true, as most of the players have already discussed that if one flips town then we will have a scum read on the other. ABR himself implied that Itlepip is not going to get away with a Sky Vig (5176), then why would he even think that it is possible. He is reaching here tbh, and I don't understand why he is so in support of Itlepip.

The major thing that rang the alarm bells for me wrt Itlepip - Sky - Flum set is that, two of them are claiming the Hated votes, and as Yos, R&L and ABR (himself) have said about these votes being insane, and Yos and R&L not being able to make the end game because of these votes is just crazy. Not to forget the FIRE votes which seem to be spreading.

Then on one hand he is suspecting the party and was hinting that Drixx and DS are both scum, (5468, 5478), and on the other hand he is expecting me to not suspect the Sky - Itlepip - Flum relationship. What is this a scum hunting dictatorship?

My question to him was why he was bringing it later in Day 2? I didn't understand his motivation here. At one point he is talking about Hated votes and 4 scum teams having 8 votes and about sparking abilities, and on the other hand he is talking about two scum teams of 3 with lynch resistance, NK and investigation immune. Where is he taking this exactly? That was my point of concern. And why ignore certain players who were equally scummy?

Tbh, his self boasting about the Max push and taking credit for the DS vig push seems a little too much to me. Nothing proves his trustworthiness and if his theory of two scum teams of 3 is to be believed, then what counts him out of the other scum group? DS was an SK so that would mean that there are still 5 scums according to him right? So I am willing to wait and see if he gets us more scums, and until then I am not going to trust him.

Spoiler: ABRs reaction to my questions

I couldn't understand why he is not scum hunting flum, and why he is trusting Itlepip so much and why he is suspecting Drixx. So, I confronted Albert for a discussion (5532).

When he said he has a Null on Flum (5534), I just got mad at him, because it scum pinged me a lot harder than his suspicion on Drixx. Like hello! We are in a game and we need to suspect everyone here, and if you have a null read on someone while you are scum hunting similar players then it is obviously fishy. And I haven't seen any major contribution from Flum this game, like his reads are all bogus (5393); there is no chance that town ABR would null read Flum at this point.

Then he starts justifying his read on me and brings Max into the picture (5538). Like what does Max have anything to do with this? and then he threatens me that I am going to go the way Max did. Hello! Like what does that have anything to do with you not scum hunting Flum?

It was pretty clear to me that I was onto something, so I pushed it a bit further and tried to mock him and insult him but he didn't budge.

So my deduction is this:
- ABR may not be scum, but there is something between ABR and Flum.
- He is hiding something from us and is not being open with why he is suspecting certain players while ignoring certain others who have a similar playstyle.
- And he is paranoid about Multiball and Drixx.
- But is contradicting himself when he says that he is worried about 4 man scum team having double votes and hated votes, but not questioning the people who have claimed those hated votes.
- He is believing Itlepip's claims beyond reason, and this doesn't go well with him being selectively paranoid on others like Drixx.
- He is not scum hunting Flum, who has bogus reads; infact he is null reading Flum, which makes no goddamn sense.

I would like us to do one of these things today:
- Pressure ABR into knowing why this selective scum hunting exists in his play.
- Clear the Sky - Itlepip - Flum mesh to make more sense. Infact, I am willing to let Itlepip be taken out of that equation for now. Because his day vig claim was true and makes sense with his claim earlier in the Day, when he said that he chose Day Vig so Sky must have got a double vote. (Shadow Servant seems like a Double Vote power to me)
- Get one of the lurkers lynched along with one of Sky / Flum.

I have already stated that I did not get any magic last night. Just because Itlepip did, doesn't mean that I did too. I have to go on adventures or hammer someone to gain magic.

I can win with blue if blue is town.

Then no worries as I am town.

Your weak-ass push on me is getting annoying. Actually type up a case instead of saying you "sense" I'm scum and never giving reasons.

Skybird's defense is decent and she did point out that she doesn't have the Double Vote, but what about her Claim?

Link me to the post where you think she had a good defense. Or are you just agreeing to be agreeable?

Also please answer this.

Ha ha, I will get a case on you Flum don't worry about it, but first I want to understand if I am missing something wrt reading you.

And regarding Skybird's defense, it is not pressurized or panicky as you will observe here (5150, 5178, 5180). She is clear about her not having a double vote and is proving it by voting for Itlepip in 5180. Which I think is a decent defense to Itlepip's claim on her having double vote powers, and her claiming that she doesn't have those powers.

But, now after reading about Shadow Servant I have an Idea to clear this Double Vote thing.

Skybird, could you please post these exact words in your next post?

Shadow Servant:Gale Wing Srock

Shadow Servant:Gale Wing Srock

How does being a double voter or not have anything to do with whether she's scum. Literally all the those defenses are some irrelevant tangent on role powers.

Flum, you are taking this out of context. Check out the context below:

Albert, lets discuss Sky - Itlepip - Flum, what do you think about them?

I started the day very aggressive with Skybird, but you know what, I liked her posts and the way she's been defending herself.

Skybird's defense is decent and she did point out that she doesn't have the Double Vote, but what about her Claim? What about her read on Flum and Itlepip? Where do you see this Blue vs Rogue thing leading into?

The discussion about Sky's defense here is not wrt her being town. But wrt Itlepip's claim on her and her reaction to it. Obviously, I have a lot of confusion wrt Sky's alignment. A lot of it depends on Itlepip's read, his claims, Sky's claims and their posts, they are kind of a pair wrt roles and both of them appear scummy to me. But the arguments of one being town and the other being scum, Blue being the villainous role between them, both being 3rd parties with one benign and one malign, both being town, all have some merits to them and cannot be brushed aside. That is why it is a mesh and people were ignoring them, including me. But the hated votes that both of them have claimed seems to be bothering me a lot. I want to find out if Sky's claim of not using the Hated vote is true, and also want to find out if

Itlepip's claim of his hated vote being temporary makes Sky's hated power as temporary too. And if it is temporary, then why didn't she use that power on her most scummiest read?

There is a lot of confusion in my mind wrt them and I want to clear it out. But as of ABR's recent claim, it seems that the hated votes and the FIRE votes would disappear if it were to be true. So I am waiting to see what R&L, Sensei, Drixx and DP decide wrt his claim.

PEdit: Albert what is stopping you from claiming the Rune's name?

No, the mod told me my hated vote stays and is cumulative. I'm not going to use it on someone until I feel pretty sure they are scum. It's too devastating to use and accidentally hit town. And obviously other people besides me and Itlepip have this ability since so many came up hated.

Look at how fucking fishy this is. Skybird probably transferred some powers to Gale or something with the bolded text, right under our nose.

I'm not wrong about Skybird.

ABR, it's hard to ignore the BS. I'd really like to go on at least one adventure but while people are doubting I'm town, I'm not going to push for it.

Anyway, Gale's posts today have felt more town to me. Why are you pushing a lynch on him?

Before the bus

I'm liking this post and others that Gale has made D2.

Skybird was also defending Gale. Which makes the bus all the more obvious.

Sky, what is the feeling exactly? Can you elaborate?

"Bus me harder please"

No I'm voting you.

Gale said he was putting a "placeholder vote" on you.
Max defended you.

Then the bus:

Reading through GWS' posts the past 3 pages or so, he doesn't look good. The posts feel off to me, as in not how I would expect town to react. I can support that wagon.

VOTE: GWS

This was after Yosarian sided with Lowkey and me against Gale and the tide was looking like it was turning.

OK everyone, I am pretty certain Skybird is scum. Let's lynch her please.

This is my case on Skybird.

We shouldn't deviate from our plan yesterday. If Skybird is town, then Flum is scum.

VOTE: Skybird

[Drunken Pirates]

Mollie, he's making assumptions. He obviously doesn't know what you asked, but based on the timing of what Varsoon said and the context of your previous posts, it was a reasonable assumption to make.

Sensei: probably because he was on V/LA?

-Cerb

wld you like to talk about how you know that titus asked varsoona something and then explain how drixx wld know that titus did?

what drixx did is the biggest bunch of bullshit and you know it.

[Drixx]

Because if lowkey is real then being a BG for scum makes no sense.

This is textbook outguessing the mod, isn't it? Didn't you say we shouldn't do that?

Flum: Drixx is being dumb and conflating the two events. Trust me. There is no scum motivation in what he's doing, he's simply confused one reason why you didn't vote for another. The L-1 time he's talking about is when he double voted, because with his double vote+wgeurts vote being counted(which we don't actually know if that would hvae happened) sky would have been at L-1, and you could have hammered. He's not wrong about you having the opportunity, but he is confusing the timing of the conversations that occurred.

-Cerb

It could be he's just actually confused, but yesterday when I pointed it out he still went to push it and didn't read what I said. (And responded by saying I wanted to hammer ABR or something?) If he was town I would expect him to actually read stuff. And today his reads have basically flipped on Sensei, then brought up something about ABR being scum, and now throwing shade on DP? Does he do this as town?

I threw out my assumptions and started thinking from scratch. You're getting bits of it as I re-read and think about things. Given that Sensei claims that he was/is townreading the entire prior party, Cerberus already pointed out that the optimal play would have been to get everyone into a deflection circle, and there would be a party full of hard to kill people who could check people who have claimed to have no access to any killing ability and who aren't in the probtown pile. Acting against the optimal strategy with no warning is the sort of thing that gets attention.

I think I'm just not expressing myself clearly to you, or you are reading into what I'm saying something that's not there.

The only question I have for you right now is this: When you thought you could hammer and gain a power, why did you wait and not do so? You said you thought ABR or Sensei might take the hammer. What was the point of that? What test were you performing? What outcomes did you predict? Which outcomes would be town and which would be scum?

[Fluminator]

@Lowkey
Do you take the hit away from me always, or only if I would die by the hit?

[Drixx]

Mollie, he's making assumptions. He obviously doesn't know what you asked, but based on the timing of what Varsoon said and the context of your previous posts, it was a reasonable assumption to make.

Sensei: probably because he was on V/LA?

-Cerb

wld you like to talk about how you know that titus asked varsoona something and then explain how drixx wld know that titus did?

what drixx did is the biggest bunch of bullshit and you know it.

Seriously stop it. Your crap is getting old fast. I

SPECULATED

that your slot may have been one of the ones to ask. I had a good reason to speculate that: your slot was role fishing me temporarily close to the announcement.

You have badgered me with no less than three posts, and called speculation a "lie", despite speculation by definition being neither true nor false, but rather an observation of something that is possible or probable.

Your hate-on for me is getting old. I never said I

knew

you guys did anything. I speculated that it might be the case and asked what people thought. This

absurdly gigantic overreaction

on your part is bizarre, and I'm wondering what to make of it.

[Drixx]

EbWoP: temporarily should be temporally.