Micro 580: Shortnight Mafia [GAME OVER]

[lovelygiant]

fucked up that post, there was a comment directed at the quote of RC's mentioning that I'm again comforted by our reads being so similar, even toward the other group. The comment for Ranger's quote still stands.

[RadiantCowbells]

so like RVS is pretty not okay in this setup right

also hi literally everyone ive never met

This is still a complete load of crap.

VOTE: Chenoan

policy lynch.

He's right, though, Creep is meh.

okay fine, I'll stop insulting your music tastes. To be honest I only really listened to Radiohead because a guy I liked in college was into them.

Still FoS'ing you for quickvoting in an easy hammer situation, though. Why'd you do that when lovelygiant has yet to post

If it's that simple then this game is a lot more town slanted than I thought at first. Thanks for enlightening me RC

But in all seriousness, two people post that random votes are probably bad and then you vote for a non-game reason? Either you really think this game is just super town sided or part of you hopes to trick town into quicklynches and then framing the hammerer.

The paranoia over being quickhammered doesn't really track, here. Scum won't quickhammer in this situation due to the setup, and I think fearmongering over quickhammering is a pretty likely scum tactic. Like, if you were really worried about being quickhammered, would you not crossvote "confirmed scum" since you were worried about being quickhammered? (Sorry if my thought process isn't clear, I've had a couple of beers.)

Woah woah woah.

Definitely picked the right game to pop my mafiascum cherry. I'm definitely excited to see how this setup plays out.

Hello to Chenoan and Radiant Cowbells. The opening interaction is interesting, because either Radiant is civ and excellently caught Chenoan slipping up or Chenoan is civ and too easily got backed into a corner. Although I obviously can't prove it, I know that one of you has to be scum and I think this will be easier to decide on than I thought before the game started.

Votes are not nearly as precious a resource as early posts would have you believe. Hammering would reveal way too much for mafia, and if a civ hammers this early, they've more than earned the vengekill they'll eat.

So far I'm liking Radiant for mirroring similar thoughts.

Dislike this post as a whole, though... feels very fence-sitty and accomplishes little in the way of advancing the discourse. Instead gives reasons why either one of Chen/RC could be scum or town. The last bit is okay but the rest of it feels like padding to look more town.

if we lynch two town and they stupidly use the vengekill on a townie then mafia has already won, guys.

lovelygiant was that a subtle intent to hammer thrown in there?

Obviously a lot depends on both groups lynches. If only one maf gets lynched, then they get a nk on a conftown and put it into lylo with one conftown, which is probably the easiest win for us (outside of lynching both mafia today) assuming the conftown left behind has good reads. But if two townies get lynched and there isn't enough info in the thread to inform the nightkill then the mafia wins immediately.

Which is why I'm thinking Radiant is probscum. Trying to incite an early lynch where they are not the hammer vote and therefor are less suspicious.

Again, this post rubs me the wrong way. Still fearmongering over the AHHH MAFIA QUICKVOTE thing, which really holds no water. I'd expect town in this situation to at least back down and be a bit more reasonable than trying to throw dirt in RC's direction over feartactics. Also...don't really see where RC tried to incite an early lynch, unless I'm missing something.

Well no, I thought it was nothing to fear, but Lovelygiant's said some things that indicated that he might actually do it.

So I'd rather unvote.

I was hoping you'd catch that. That right there is why I'm townreading you already. Scum would have let it be and scores an easy lynch.

So now it's my turn.

VOTE: Chenoan

mmmmmmm

what tho?

From what I've read, RadiantCowbells often aggressively cases others. I've only seen a game where she was cult leader, though.

Oh,

goodie

-- meta!

@TIMU: Are you saying that your vote on Ranger was simply a pressure vote and wasn't meant to be serious?

Yes.

Interesting. What kind of goal were you trying to accomplish? Simply to get Ranger to post? What about Ranger's post satisfied you?

This really doesn't feel like scumhunting.
What answers were you looking for, Reck? How could TIMU have responded such that you'd think that he's town or scum?
Like I really get the feeling that this is more trying to look busy and scumhunting than anything real.
Meta, so what? Like urgh.

Also for all the talk of Chen/Reck I don't get the impression that he's trying to change the status quo Chen lynch, which makes me somewhat worried about
The LG comments look a lot like distancing as well, especially when he says that part of it is ok.
Ugh.

Again, this post rubs me the wrong way. Still fearmongering over the AHHH MAFIA QUICKVOTE thing, which really holds no water. I'd expect town in this situation to at least back down and be a bit more reasonable than trying to throw dirt in RC's direction over feartactics. Also...don't really see where RC tried to incite an early lynch, unless I'm missing something.

This part just bugs me so much.

I actually think LG is more likely scum than Chen in Group 1. Rereading the interactions in group 1, it seems very much like Chen v RC had gotten into swing when LG arrives.

- Chen v RC over Radiohead jokey bullshit
- RC calls out Chen's paranoia over the "quickhammer" fear
- RC declares his vote serious
- LG shows up with a fence-sitting post leaving options open
- LG takes the pressure already on Chen and RUNS with it

I dunno. Something about the way LG entered the thread and immediately thought this Chen thing was a slam dunk is really rubbing me the wrong way, in retrospect. I think I'd prefer LG > Chen > RC at this point.

I fucking hate how as soon as he gets called out he switches his reads.
This feels like he could be seeing himself getting lynched and trying to distance from LG.
If Reck is really scum I'm really hesitant about voting Chen here.

Also, the RC townread is mostly unexplained and he mostly gets it from crowd mentality, but he's calling me out now?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what the fucking DICK is this?

LG spent page one "slam dunking" Chen because Chen believed the quickhammer scenario was likely in this game and LG/RC railroaded the shit out of Chen for it, and now LG is using the exact same principle to call RC town?

Fuck that

Y'all lynch this

This again. Urgh.
He's pushing on LG in such a fucking insincere way.
Like this is so exaggerated and attention grabby. Like HEY LOOK AT ME IM SCUMREADING LG LOOK LOOK LOOK.
And LG's been trying to discredit me recently. Urgh.

"Because they look town" is not a reason to call someone town. There's no further substance behind anything Ranger says, because Ranger arrived at the CONCLUSION before actually going through the process of discovering her reads organically. You can see that all across her play: she just posted reads in the thread with no actual substance behind them, then cherry picked moments to respond to in order to fit her already established narrative.

I'm using "nit-picky blown out details" to paint RC in a bad light -- why is it nit picky or overblown? Nobody knows, because Ranger hasn't explained it. Ranger has also avoided engaging with the thread in a meaningful way and has mostly skirted around the sidelines and taken shots without fully grappling with the content in the game.

Nothing in this is calling her scum though.
This is basically saying that she's confbiasing; how does that make her scum?

Also I absolutely loathe Reckoner's read progression wrt me.
Reck, go back and explain where your read on me was through this game.

Either way, I'm fairly sure Reck's scum at this point but I think it's more likely that LG is the scum and that the Chen associatives are a deliberate false trail because he intended to be lynched. It goes with LG's flip floppiness over townreading me; he may be acting like this because he knows he has to 1v1 me sooner or later but doesn't want to attract my attention before that.

But idk.

I want to see a response from Reck. What's your read on me through the game and why?

[lovelygiant]

Oh, dear. I wish you weren't scumreading me, but I don't know how to stop you. My flip-floppiness was genuine because, whilst second guessing my scum read on Chen, it left only you to consider. The reason I went BACK to town-reading you was the overall assessment that, no matter how my brain spun it, you were just unarguably cleaner and I was making a mistake.

I do strongly agree with your reads on Reck for my previously explained reasons. I think you're reading his relation to Chen and me

backwards

though. It seems almost transparent to me, go and look at those posts of his, in context. He didn't start dissecting Chen until AFTER ranger mentioned the likelihood of them being a team, and after he had felt he's done his due diligence for the sake of distance, he acted as if he suddenly found me way more guilty. It's bogus as all hell. I guess the transparency comes from knowing my alignment, though. And that I can't prove. Working on it.

[lovelygiant]

I do agree with the insincerity of Reck's push for my apparently obvious malalignment, especially while claiming

I

am the arrogant or cocky one.

[lovelygiant]

But I guess I can't blame you for lightening your scum read on Chen after I did the same. His wall post was unarguably the most town he has sounded thus far.

[lovelygiant]

I also need to reconsider things. Chen's wall post came off as very towny and unexpected.

Unvote.

For the record, in all of my past experience on the other forum, games were always 20 or so players, and there was no hammer, at all. When deadline came, the votes were tallied for that phase and whoever was in the lead was lynched. The whole concept of hammers is still new to me so I've been very experimental with it this game to see how it can be used in less straightforward ways. It's kind of neat.

Yeah, so I really don't like how when I started FoSing Chen, LG immediately jumped on the wagon and moved to hammer, and then every time I've doubted that townread he starts doubting his townread on me as well.

I get the feeling he could just be trying to side with whoever's townreading him to get the other lynched. I don't really feel a lot of scumhunting vibes from him?

What did you like in Chen's wall? Why do (did) you think that I'm town?

I feel like my reads on people in relation to them townreading me is more coincidental than causal. I have been doing my best to scum hunt, whether or not I've been successful at it.

It wasn't specific points in Chen's post, but more the way he wasn't afraid to garner more attention and create more discussion around him by calling out pretty much everyone, the opposite of what a scum would typically want in that situation, right? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

I found you very civ for your withdrawn vote in fear of my hammer, amongst other things. Our early interactions with Chen revealed a lot, I thought, but the more I look at them, the more I can see them with both town and mafia motives, myself included. That's what the doubt and Unvote/revote nonsense was about.

I find myself confusing Reck's and Ranger's reads a lot. I'm gonna reexamine the thread in its entirety while it is still short.

I already have explained why I was "discrediting" you (which quite frankly isn't the case). And I no longer feel that way. I had my second thoughts about Chen but after stumbling upon his connection with Reck (and subsequently, finding Ranger feeling similarly) bolstered my scumread on Chen.

I'm fairly confident in the possibility of a Chen/Reck team and don't see why you doubt the possibility of one, RC. Double ISO Chen and Reck for me and tell me what you see. If you're still so skeptical, I'll look through again.

[lovelygiant]

an OVERALL scum read list, including both groups. Scum on top, town on bottom.

Reckoner
Chenoan
-
TIMU
-
Ranger
Radiant Cowbells
Lovelygiant

TIMU lands in neutral territory, could be swapped with Reck for the mafia of his group. I don't find it entirely likely, but the possibility is there I guess.

[Ranger]

I wish you weren't scumreading me, but I don't know how to stop you

Honestly? I don't think we need to.

In fact: I think this game is an auto-win if I understand the mechanics correctly.
Say everything goes terribly wrong: you're town and get lynched, and

somehow

, I get lynched. Reck's obviously scum, so we vengekill him. TIMU becomes confirmed town, and RC is obviously town. We lynch Chenoan, we win. This also works if we vengekill Chenoan, albeit not as well, because it leaves Reck/TIMU both alive and while RC's

probably

not going to let Reck live, you never know.

Say things don't go terribly wrong: you're town and get lynched, but I don't get lynched: instead, Reck gets lynched. He's scum, so scum get to vengekill someone, probably me but you never know, could always be TIMU. Doesn't matter, though: you're left with RC who is obviously town, and Chenoan.

So, I don't see how we can lose. The only question is whether we get a perfect victory or have to do this the long way. I still think it's Chenoan. I still think you're town. But it's not the end of the world if you're lynched.

[lovelygiant]

wow. I'm actually impressed, Ranger. I didn't think it so simply, but makes total sense.

anyone see any holes in this? I honestly don't.

[Ranger]

Well there is one big hole: it assumes RC is town. It also makes a secondary (albeit less important) assumption that Reck is scum and TIMU is town. If either assumption is wrong, the win becomes less assured. Though frankly, I'll take the blame for the loss if Reck's town since that's my call, and if RC's scum he's earned the win.

[xRECKONERx]

This really doesn't feel like scumhunting.
What answers were you looking for, Reck? How could TIMU have responded such that you'd think that he's town or scum?
Like I really get the feeling that this is more trying to look busy and scumhunting than anything real.
Meta, so what? Like urgh.

What kind of questions do you believe "qualify" as scumhunting? I try to poke and prod wherever I can until I get solid reads, that's just how the game is played. I find it hilarious you think my actual questioning/consistent thoughtful points on the game are "trying to look busy" but have said nothing about Ranger's empty reads with no scumhunting behind them (like, objectively).

Reck, go back and explain where your read on me was through this game.

First, you get to explain why you're giving Ranger a free pass with the copious amounts of shitty shit he's producing.

[Chenoan]

Not the case. I never once have tried to defend a lynch on me by "LOL I AM JUST BAD AT D1", and the fearmongering here based on potential futures instead of anything concrete is pretty terrible.

Well of course you haven't yet, but it still reads that way. Looking back it seems like I'm not the only one who thought so.

I made a mental note to comment on the Radiohead thing because I love Radiohead, got distracted by actual content stuff and things happening, forgot about it, mentioned it after the fact. Why is that weird? Why is that some grand conspiracy?

It felt very weird. And potentially buddying? But I honestly couldn't tell. It would have been nice if you'd put some comment about how "oh, this is late, but..." or something??? It was just weird okay?

Second off, I wasn't self-metaing. I was bringing up a reasonable defense of my actions regarding the Day 1 comment. That's not self-meta. Self-meta would be saying, "I am town because I do X" or something of that nature. This was simply me providing rational, empirical evidence to clear up the confusion around my "I'm bad @ D1" post.

Referencing you own meta as a defense is self-metaing in my opinion.

As I said, I reread. Why are you starting from a place where you assume ill intent rather than earnest enlightenment? Why does it

feel like

I'm trying to earn town points by defending you if you're town, rather than

feel like

I reread the first few pages and saw something I hadn't seen before?

And betting on "sure lynches" as scum makes no sense in this setup, given nobody is playing a long game.

All scum has to do is get two mislynches, and seem JUST towny enough to not get NK'd, and they win. So sure lynches seem like the obvious mafia strategy to me?

Reckoner's vote feels a little OMGUS'y, but he gives reasons for it... hmm... Is there a way to view multiple player's iso's at once? It's be interesting to just read group two's posts in iso.

Yes, indeed, you can click the "+" icon near the bottom of the page to do that.

Thanks for that. But no acknowledgment about the OMGUS?

[xRECKONERx]

Referencing you own meta as a defense is self-metaing in my opinion.

You're wrong.

It wasn't being used as a defense of the meta itself -- someone asked "why are you doing X" and I was going "because I had this bad experience in another game" and pointed to what happened in the other game for reference.

[xRECKONERx]

People use OMGUS without understanding what it means and I've grown very old and tired of explaining it to people and have basically become incapable of being nice about it anymore, so the second I see the term OMGUS get used, I tune it out because it has been diluted over time to mean absolutely nothing.

[xRECKONERx]

OMGUS is also not scum or town dependent and can be used by either alignment pretty evenly so

even if

my vote for Ranger was OMGUS, it would be null.

It wasn't OMGUS, though. I waited to see what Ranger's reasons were for voting me, I found the reasons and trajectory taken to get there flimsy and scummy, and I voted accordingly.

[RadiantCowbells]

OMGUS is also not scum or town dependent and can be used by either alignment pretty evenly so

even if

my vote for Ranger was OMGUS, it would be null.

It wasn't OMGUS, though. I waited to see what Ranger's reasons were for voting me, I found the reasons and trajectory taken to get there flimsy and scummy, and I voted accordingly.

This is arguing that he 'could' be town because OMGUS is null.
Not arguing that he's town.

[xRECKONERx]

I'm arguing about OMGUS from a theoretical perspective which is completely devoid of any relation to this game or any alignment shit.

This is why I don't get into theory discussions about it and tend to ignore it completely, because I can only do the "get off my goddamn lawn" routine so much before I just want to put a gun in my mouth.

[RadiantCowbells]

Which is true but a horrible way of responding to it.

First, you get to explain why you're giving Ranger a free pass with the copious amounts of shitty shit he's producing.

she's*
But yeah, I don't like how quick Ranger is to write me off as town after she did the same in our last game and I was scum.
I still think Reck's scum and Ranger's town but wtf.

I'm arguing about OMGUS from a theoretical perspective which is completely devoid of any relation to this game or any alignment shit.

This is why I don't get into theory discussions about it and tend to ignore it completely, because I can only do the "get off my goddamn lawn" routine so much before I just want to put a gun in my mouth.

What's so flimsy and scummy about Ranger's trajectory?
Like if you're town you're getting fucking nowhere with being an obtuse ass about it.
And that's the point? Stripping game context from your positions is something scum do alot to avoid making errors due to cogdis.
Like screw you not being scum. Why should I believe that you're town? If I was in this group, why should I vote with you?
Enough of the fucking macho posturing.

[RadiantCowbells]

But yeah.
Ranger, why are you willing to use a strategy established on townreading me when you should have already established you have issues reading me?

[xRECKONERx]

What's so flimsy and scummy about Ranger's trajectory?
Like if you're town you're getting fucking nowhere with being an obtuse ass about it.

I've literally made posts about why I find Ranger's reasoning and posting iffy. Empty reads list, no reasons, fill in the "reasons" later, never explain the "why" behind any of it -- it reeks of arriving at your conclusion before actually having any real reasons for thinking that way, and that fits with scum wanting to control the narrative rather than town wanting to figure out the narrative ??? I've been pretty explicit about my reads, I'm so sorry if you're not reading the fucking game

And that's the point? Stripping game context from your positions is something scum do alot to avoid making errors due to cogdis.

oh you mean pretty much exactly what Ranger is doing? Maybe like, not going into depth on reads or explaining the why behind stuff in order to avoid having to commit to anything? you mean like just being like "this act is scummy or townie" without explaining why it's scummie or townie? like literally removing GAME CONTEXT FROM YOUR POSITIONS is what Ranger has been doing and you're calling ME out for it??? get fucking real

Like screw you not being scum. Why should I believe that you're town? If I was in this group, why should I vote with you?
Enough of the fucking macho posturing.

Because I'm the one in this pod who has actually gone into depth on my thoughts. I'm not scared to take flak for "changing my mind" when I see things that make me think differently, I'm engaging with all aspects of the game instead of just the ones that fit my safe little narrative, and I'm the one who has the most detailed thoughts and explanations on people's motivations and why my reads are what they are. I don't just stop at "but this is scummy", I explain why it's scummy, I dig into the motivations and behavior behind it instead of couching my shitty reads in fucking cute little buzzwords and calling it a day

[RadiantCowbells]

Alright stop.

And with this, you're inverting your initial reads. This fits with the classical "distance from buddy, don't actually bus" methodology from scum: you called Chenoan as the most likely scum initially to look good, yet now when push comes to shove, you've pushed lovelygiant hard and are using nit-picky details blown out of proportion to paint RadiantCowbells in a bad light, which by default places Chenoan at the top. You're deliberately trying to set up lovelygiant-RC antagonism, setting them against one another.

This is really storytelling-y. Reckoner has a point here; it feels more like a prepared narrative than a legitimate thought process.
And I hate how quick Ranger is to declare the game solved.

[xRECKONERx]

omg did i actually make some headway

i dont know what to do now

this

never happens

[RadiantCowbells]

what the fuck was that?

[xRECKONERx]

nothing, carry on with how im right / have a point plz

[Maestro]