Borderlands Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Rob14]

Can I get an over/under line on how long until Mimi says I must be scum because I'm being so stubborn? I feel like I'd want to bet under on that pretty strongly.

[beeboy]

Considering wgeurts gladiated when we have a guilty he really isn't committed to this at which supports my claim where I said he thought it would be an easy lynch.

[beeboy]

Considering wgeurts gladiated when we have a guilty he should really be more committed to this, but he isn't. Which supports my claim where I said he thought it would be an easy lynch.

I am tired lol.

[Elyse]

@Mimi
I'm not buddying Rob. In my catchup post people, ROB INCLUDED, were unvoting and starting to consider not lynching wgeurts and I want to keep that momentum going. I'm going to do everything in my power to get wgeurts lynched because I think he's scum.

I also find it funny how when I post my big long catchup posts, and am finally here and the same time as you, you don't even attempt to engage with me. AND I'M YOUR BIGGEST SCUMREAD.

What the hell is that about?

I also don't want anyone to hammer until TSO responds to me.

[Rob14]

Stop being such a fucking whiner because no one is feeding into your bullshit.

The above can definitely be taken as buddying, given the timing.

I don't consider buddying to be that much of a scumtell, but I think it's a legitimate call-out. As in, I believe Mimi thinks it's a scumtell (which isn't alignment indicative because multiball and/or SK).

I've been accused of buddying many times as town, so I just don't really care about it much as a tell. There are scum reasons to do it, but just agreeing with someone can be called buddying as well.

[wgeurts]

Why?

1) pisskop is starting to look town and has an active night action as compared to a negative utility gladiate.

2) wguerts has multiple times indicated he wants to use the Gladiator AGAIN in the future. the threat of a PL isn't stopping him

I've threatened to use it only on Pisskop yes.

[wgeurts]

Okay can literally fudge anyone explain why Pisskop has become more town over the last pages?
Because there are a lot of people throwing that term around without backing up their claims.

I'm going to have a hearty laugh when I get lynched and flip green, only to later see Pisskop win the game for scum or get lynched if you lot actually start to use your beads.

[wgeurts]

He hasn't become any more town over the last pages in my opinion as:
He's only started to post since I've put his life on the line. He at first just gave up but changed to fight mode after he saw he had a chance. He's just discrediting everyone that pushes him and never responds to any posts about him concerning them.

That's not town.

[Nicole Mimi Tithel]

- If there's a rolecop, then I was screwed anyway from getting good results. The chances of a rolecop aren't bad, but they also aren't great. Even if there is a rolecop, there's the possibility that there's no daytalk, so I'd get a useful Night 2 result. Also, the rolecop could decide not to target me because, more than likely, I'm dying from one of the two scum NKs tonight. There's a lot of what-ifs, but at worst, the role cop would put me in the "bad" situation I've described before where I become useless.

in the first place, if you were reading my posts this game day (which you aren't, fucking rich of you given i've probably put close to as much, or as much, effort into game solving and trying to work with people who _would_ work with me as much as i can _after_ you claimed the guilty than you have the entire game), you would know that i outright said you gained nothing from claiming right at this moment, and that i'm suggesting that the optimal time to claim is on D3, after you get a result on N2. i don't disagree with the fact you could get a useful result on N2 and i'm not suggesting you do something that would take that away.

outside of that, i don't understand what point you're actually trying to make here. you don't care that your role is easily counterable because roles that are easily counterable are screwed from the get go? if that's the case your whole argument based around you being able to gain utility from your role past D3 is ridiculous. i hope for the sake of my sanity there is something else to this

- Similar things for roleblocks and the other counters you propose. At worst, I'm drawing all the scum PRs onto me from both sides in attempts to kill, roleblock, and rolecop me. How is it a bad thing that I'm occupying the PRs on the scum side by not claiming?

this is a fucking retarded argument given a role that apparently gets "guilties" on people is a very powerful role, or at absolute worst a mediocre role. so kudos. you're drawing a PR only for a bunch of roles who are less powerful/useful than yours to do shit, while you're stuck not being able to do anything. and no, you wouldn't be drawing "all the scum PRs" onto you, you would at best draw one from each scum team (i.e. something like a roleblock+rolecop combination on one team would completely bury you while still being able to do shit elsewhere and that's just the _worst_ case scenario i can think of with only 2 roles) and even that is optimistic. by the time it would be even remotely mathematically relevant to hold up a scum PR, you would be dead (you've conceded that you're almost certainly dead soon, right? i don't have to go through and explain why? i mean, i know that's what you just said... )

this is also ignoring the fact that VTs exist... drawing a PR isn't a good reason to do anything when mathematically there's like at least 1/3 chance the block or whatever you're drawing would have been completely useless anyway. it isn't a good justification even if you are just a mediocre PR as you're apparently claiming

and if you are a mediocre role, it also ignores the fact that scum have more knowledge of the setup, and, for instance, might have found a better role somehow, either via crumbs or role results or other info they might have somehow; the second one in practice may apply here if scum found something on N1 (dunno how likely it is but don't just try and handwave it). there would be a somewhat-OK chance you're just running around "drawing a PR" for nothing

i can think of some more nuanced scenarios where something like this would backfire but those are two general ones that apply in any game. there are probably other general scenarios that i can't be assed to write about cos i need to leave in a few mins - key point is you're delusional if you're dedicating a bunch of effort into something which worst case scum can easily plan around and best case is still completely useless 1/3 of the time

- I can't respond to your point regarding how you would lynch guilties anyway without significantly narrowing down what role I am, but the point is not accurate.

yes, it is, and people like you who go "LEL ROLE INFO" every game are people who don't play optimally. have you never ran into games where, for instance, scum have claimed miller after being cop guiltied and got away with it? i know GreyICE won a game with a guilty on him that way, zmuffinman won a game by arguing that the (dead) cop couldn't have guiltied him even though they had obviously crumbed their result, and i've even managed to survive a day by claiming miller after a cop guiltied me in a game a long time ago.

- Setup speculation will never be more important than finding scum, which is literally what not full-claiming allows me to do. You wouldn't trade a potential 1-shot investigative for knowledge that the 1-shot investigative exists. That's what you're proposing, assuming I survive a night.

this is a progression from my previous point - it's not "trading a potential 1-shot investigative" given the (very very high) likelihood of scum either being able to interfere or killing you. whether you like it or not, outside of the (very unlikely) scenario i described where you could miraculously get some protective role on you and survive several more nights, you will gain maybe a useful result on N2, and if you're really lucky one on N3, and that's it. with several unknown scum counters in play and 2 kills/night, it is astronomically unlikely you will have much of a chance to gain much (if any) more utility using your role past D3 and on and on, especially if your role is as you describe where you can't get innos and can only get definitive guilties some of the time - it's purely risk/reward

- The whole "scum gains an advantage from Rob claiming" ignores the fact that they gain a pretty huge fucking disadvantage when I out a guilty and literally lynch scum based solely off of the partial claim. So lol.

you are either misinterpreting or being deliberately dense about my point. you gaining utility after guiltying scum is irrelevant to this. the key point as explained above is after D3 you are extremely unlikely to actually gain any additional utility from your role.

I also will literally never, in any game, take advice on how to play my PR from someone I have a guilty on. Never going to happen.

and this is why you're fucking awful at this game

you're reading all of the my posts with the impression "LEL GUILTY" and ignoring the fact what i'm talking about is 100% theory. there is no "advice" or "opinion". it's theoretically correct, and this is true regardless of what my alignment is. which is, kind of, you know the very first thing i said in my post, and kind of why i made sure to make a point of it

[Nicole Mimi Tithel]

I also find it funny how when I post my big long catchup posts, and am finally here and the same time as you, you don't even attempt to engage with me. AND I'M YOUR BIGGEST SCUMREAD.

OK, let's engage. what is the purpose of this post if i'm supposedly confirmed scum?

you're doing the same thing here you did when you "reached out" to dwlee d1

[Nicole Mimi Tithel]

for those watching from the sidelines

i. Rob is against fullclaming on D3. this directly means that he thinks he'll be able to get utility from whatever role has has, starting from N3.
ii. in any setup, scum will have ways to counter town roles. this is just common sense - it is absolutely fucking impossible there are no scum roles that will counter town PRs - there will be at least one or two ON EACH scumteam in the game. he's already partially claimed, and has stated you can infer what his role does solely from the role name, aka Rolecop (which is somewhat common) is a HARD counter to the role, i.e. if a scum team has one, now that he's laid this partial claim out, fuck any chance of his role catching any of them. his justification for the above is "durrr i can draw a scum PR".
iii. the setup has 2 scum-oriented kills per night, meaning he'd have to survive 2 nights, with 2 kills per night, with no scum countering his role. the only way this is even remotely possible is via protection (bear in mind the claimed doctor can only protect women...) and this still doesn't guarantee it won't be interfered with in other ways.
iv. he's claiming he has an average role, which can't get innos, and can only sometimes get definitive guilties. with that in mind on top of everything else, the chance he gets anything useful after tonight's result is basically 0% and obviously so.
v. he has ACKNOWLEDGED he is LIKELY to die VERY SOON (I.E. TONIGHT), and is still pushing this.

and no, this isn't a "people should massclaim d1" argument. it's "someone claimed so early it would be delusional for him to expect to survive, and have their role, which is apparently meh anyway, completely uncountered, for 3+ additional nights after claiming"

anyone who can't see the idiocy here is beyond me

[Maxous]

He hasn't become any more town over the last pages in my opinion as:
He's only started to post since I've put his life on the line. He at first just gave up but changed to fight mode after he saw he had a chance. He's just discrediting everyone that pushes him and never responds to any posts about him concerning them.

That's not town.

The problem is that it has gotten pretty hard to judge his behaviour because what the hell is he supposed to do when you get gladiated.

regardless, i'm gonna re-vote

vote: pisskop

I just can't bring myself to vote somebody

so town

and while it may be a 1 1 in 10 chance pisskop is scum...it's at least a chance.

ain't happy about this though.

[pisskop]

'oh look an AtE. let me follow it and claim to be emotional'

[pisskop]

you know what I like? I like to hop my vote around in already confusing games and then say'opps, I followed the heart of the cards'

because we all subscribed to objectivity a second ago, and objectively rated yougyrts as trash

[pisskop]

butt

noo

, lets all do this some more. this day is getting ripe.

im not varsoon has made their policy on posting clear, btw

[pisskop]

You know what hasnt happened?

yougurts has not

-made an attempt to finished his promised reads list and catchup
-apologized for/retracted his claim to want to use his power. oh sure, he put a qualifier onto it.
-made any actual, nonemotional nofriendcardy attempt to reach out
-produced content
-tried to convince anyone new he is town/notshit
-adddressed his glaring claims to be able to nolynch
-addressed the worst gladiate ever after after declaring multiple times that nicole should die
-offered up any reads at all

[pisskop]

what information do we need again to end the day?

who hasnt produced that has not had ample oppurtunity to had they given the cares to?

why are we hung up? Is nicole v rob going to suddenly demistify without more NAs/flipping?

[wgeurts]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
The reads post thing yeah I'll admit to having let sink to the background but the rest is bullshit.

[Nicole Mimi Tithel]

btw Elyse, if you want engagement, here's another point: you're blatantly talking out of both sides of your mouth re: this Rob/me shitfight. in your first wall when it first happened you said something along the lines of "why are you questioning Rob, we lynch Mimi and if she flips town we lynch Rob next". you then critique me because i've just assumed people will inevitably lynch Rob after i flip.

???

and don't try to bullshit around this by saying something like "you have a guilty on you, it wouldn't have mattered anyway". i think you were forcing the whole "just stop trying to get Rob to claim" in order to (again) buddy up to him.

[Nero Cain]

So I have alot of reading to do.

[Rob14]

Mimi, if I get countered, it doesn't give me a false result. It gives me a result that I would know is useless by nature of my role. Full claiming leads to me getting countered. Not full claiming is weakly better because I could be countered or not. Not to mention that a PR is required to counter. You start talking about how a PR targeting me is a loss of an investigative but if I full claim, again, I'm already losing my investigative because of how easy it is to claim around it.

I'm done reading a word you say though because you're not even aiming any of it at me anymore. It's all aimed at the peanut gallery so you can point back and say "but scum wouldn't have posted this!" to WIFOM your way out of the lynch.

[Rob14]

I also find it funny how when I post my big long catchup posts, and am finally here and the same time as you, you don't even attempt to engage with me. AND I'M YOUR BIGGEST SCUMREAD.

OK, let's engage. what is the purpose of this post if i'm supposedly confirmed scum?

you're doing the same thing here you did when you "reached out" to dwlee d1

This post shows clearly your attempt to WIFOM.

[SirCakez]

He hasn't become any more town over the last pages in my opinion as:
He's only started to post since I've put his life on the line. He at first just gave up but changed to fight mode after he saw he had a chance. He's just discrediting everyone that pushes him and never responds to any posts about him concerning them.

That's not town.

The problem is that it has gotten pretty hard to judge his behaviour because what the hell is he supposed to do when you get gladiated.

regardless, i'm gonna re-vote

vote: pisskop

I just can't bring myself to vote somebody

so town

and while it may be a 1 1 in 10 chance pisskop is scum...it's at least a chance.

ain't happy about this though.

Why is wgeurts so town? He gladiated someone when there was a guilty on someone else.

[SirCakez]

Nicole - you're basically throwing everything but the kitchen sink at Rob. You're saying he's misrepresenting, ignoring things, making terrible arguments but you still think he's town? This doesn't add up at all to me.

[popsofctown]

People who do PR things that will surely get them killed get to be Innocent Childs unless their name is wgeurts