Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Thor665]

I'm actually kind of with Ircher in thinking BBT might be scum.

For the same reasons or different ones?

[TellTaleHeart]

Pretty similar. The case on Keyser just isn't that great. The fact that he's frustrating me on Kain is also concerning me.

[Boonskiies]

Point in case:

Meh. Why not?

VOTE: Keyser

Boonskiies has followed your anti-town roleclaim plan. This tells me nothing. Is Boonkiies opportunistic scum or a blind sheep?

I would rather Boonskiies present why he thinks I am scum.

Looks like you've just gotten irritated that you are caught out as scum and really don't have many reasons why. That in itself is pretty damning.

[Boonskiies]

And immediately after, you target GuyFawkes, who was just tied with 2nd biggest wagon a couple of pages back. Easy wagon to manipulate onto.

[Boonskiies]

Thank you for being town, Thor.

<3 Ever since Masquerade Large game I have enjoyed playing with you, and find it easier not to question your alignment until later.

[Boonskiies]

@Ircher - this is massive every game, regardless of alignment. I even have modded some games and he does that. it's just massive.

[Boonskiies]

I'm town reading Ircher. I get in his position a lot. The main wagon is formed early game, and he strongly town reads that person. I feel I've done the same thing that Ircher is doing to Keyser, to Thor multiple times. I always defend Thor for some reason...strange. Anywho, Ircher seems to just be tunneling on TownKeyser because the wagon is forming fast.

[Boonskiies]

I have a paranoia of TTH, but I don't want to delve into that right now. Nothing she's doing is scummy to me or anything. I actually like her input. I'm just....aaah. I never know how to deal with her.

[Boonskiies]

I AM FEELING SAD ABOUT THIS GAME,, NOBODY LISTENING TO ME WHEN I SAY THERE IS PROBABLY 2 SCUM WITHIN THIS GROUP:

KEYser, Aquanim, OCEANWIND and TELL TALE HEART....

It's probably Keyser and TTH.

[TellTaleHeart]

I feel like I'm coming off as either really bitchy or scummy when I go after Kain, but whatever. It is what it is.

[TellTaleHeart]

I AM FEELING SAD ABOUT THIS GAME,, NOBODY LISTENING TO ME WHEN I SAY THERE IS PROBABLY 2 SCUM WITHIN THIS GROUP:

KEYser, Aquanim, OCEANWIND and TELL TALE HEART....

It's probably Keyser and TTH.

You're really going to do this?

[Boonskiies]

YOU ARE MAKING ME VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM TELLING THE TRUTH CAN YOU ALL JUST BELIEVE ME??????????????

I AM TOWN AND I AM NOT A TROLL!!!!!! IF YOU SPEND MORE TIME TRYING TO LOOK AT SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE LIKE OCEANWIND AND AQUANIM THEN MAYBE YOU WILL FIND SCUM FASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AFTER NIGHT 1 I WILL HAVE MORE INFORMATION TO GIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you'd be much less annoying if you wouldn't talk in all caps. Actually, I'm going to challenge you to something now. No caps at all. Type in all lowercase. the point will still get across. I promise you.

[Boonskiies]

I AM FEELING SAD ABOUT THIS GAME,, NOBODY LISTENING TO ME WHEN I SAY THERE IS PROBABLY 2 SCUM WITHIN THIS GROUP:

KEYser, Aquanim, OCEANWIND and TELL TALE HEART....

It's probably Keyser and TTH.

You're really going to do this?

Nah, I'm down to lynch Kain with you if you want.

[Boonskiies]

I feel like I'm coming off as either really bitchy or scummy when I go after Kain, but whatever. It is what it is.

I only have a paranoia of you. I wouldn't push you until flips happened, which could just make me town read you.

[TellTaleHeart]

No, no.

First it was Robster, then it was GuyFawkes, then it was BBT. Now apparently you want in on the action with this narrative that Kain is just a poor troll and I'm just being shitty and scummy by picking on him.

I will concede that maybe I'm not the nicest person. But my opinion is that Kain is

not

a troll and he is

not

a bumbling fool. Every action he's taking from the soft claiming to pushing lurkers and the Keyser wagon to changing his playstyle to match the previous game when Aqua brought it up all are aimed at getting townread and surviving.

[TellTaleHeart]

That's actually probably the most taxing part of this game. I'm being made to feel like I'm doing everything wrong.

It's not a good feeling.

[Boonskiies]

He's not a troll, but he is a bumbling fool.

[Aquanim]

...
A combination of both - what of him I have read is little, but it is not particularly screaming town or scum to me.
Why, is there part of him I should read that would give me a town/scum vibe on him?
You also didn't answer my question to you - asking your read of him. Why not?
...

I wanted to know where you were at first.

Why I think KainTepes is mafia

- #129 looks like Kain is hiding behind it being early in the day to avoid discussing his scumreads. Considering that in Kain's completed towngame he voted for scum an hour in and said he was frusturated nobody followed him, he claims to be "a VERY AGGRESSIVE player" as town, and in his towngame he in fact had some fidelity to his early reads despite resistance, I don't buy this.

- The arguments Slandaar and TTH made starting here.

- Kain pretended in #206 not to have read the thread, to dodge talking about the points Slandaar and TTH made about him. I don't believe that he (or anyone) would make that post if they hadn't read the thread (he also claimed not to have read the thread in #219), and I don't believe that a townie having read the thread would dodge like that (unless there were some underlying plan, which I've seen no sign of). I've already been over this at length.

- There is nothing redeeming about the reads Kain has made, and I don't see any coherent town thought process behind his switching from one to the next. I think there should be one if he's capable of these observations:

THIS is TERRIBLE.... BBT LOOKS SO MUCH MORE INACTIVE THIS GAME THAN IN ALL THE GAMES WHERE HE IS TOWN,, I WILL NOT GIVE HIM ANY MORE CHANCES..............

VOTE: BLUE BLOODED TOFFEE

...
too many people suddenly interested in keyser,, feels OPPORTUNISTIC

None of those points is explained away by Kain being a PR.

@everyone

: If you don't think Kain is scum, I want to know what in the above you disagree with.

[Keyser Söze]

At this current time I do no want to lynch anyone, but I will present my Finger of Suspicion on Masquerade this afternoon. He is in my uncomfortable pile.
I will present this soon [FoS: GuyFawkes/Masquerade].

BlueBloodedToffee is also in my uncomfortable pile:
- blind/empty wagon driving
- pushing non-alignment indicative behaviour as scummy
- opportunistic play
- possible buddying attempt

Spoiler: BlueBloodedToffee: anti-town or opportunistic wagon pusher?

He isn't pushing anything, he isn't stating scum reads, he isn't stating people he would like to see lynched for x, y and z reasons. He is simply throwing out a lot of thoughts and seeing what sticks.

This is non-alignment indicative. It is common for players to not have strong reads early Day One.

I remembered you would love to lynch me if you were scum.

Logical fallacy. To justify a vote based on this is naive.

Don't you have somewhere you can keep notes like this so you don't have to clutter the thread? There is, of course, other motivations for doing what you do. Wanna hazard a guess at them?

This is discrediting me as a player and my reads.

Another null read?

This is non-alignment indicative. Null-reads are common where players are trying to sort other players early Day One.

but I'm reading that replace out as town.

Replace-outs are non-alignment indicative. (I will note this soft-defence of Masquerade).

VOTE: Keyser

This needs to hang. And fast.

No - first you must present why I am scum.

Slandaar, help me lynch Keyser.

Tries to push Slandaar onto my wagon (knowing well that Slandaar does not town-read me). Why not convince people not scum-reading me to join the wagon?

TTH, you don't want to entertain a Keyser wagon?

Again, this is not presenting why I am scum. It is an empty wagon.

Talk about MN and GR some more. Also, what makes you think Keyser is scum?

Asking others to express why they think I am scum, while not sharing his. Again adding more diluted fuel to an empty wagon.

I don't see Keyser being assertive at all

This is non-alignment indicative.

look at his content. It's poor.

This is discrediting me as a player and my reads.

it always ends with a null read and a serious lack of committment and conviction.

This is non-alignment indicative.

What I do know is that the content he is producing is less than impressive.

This is discrediting me as a player and my reads.

I mean, even when Keyser was voting Kain he still said he needed time to sort the slot.

This is non-alignment indicative. No one is a closed case.

I can't read Kain for shit and I'm hoping he gets vigged.

So why can't I "read Kain for shit" too?
(Because it doesn't fit your Keyser-scum narrative. In your narrative, scum-Keyser isn't allowed to null-read KainTepes).

will you help me lynch Keyser Tomorrow?

Still pushing a lynch but no sound argument.

I want to catch the people who are much more likely to slip through the net. Like Keyser.

If the majority scum-read me I will be lynched. There is no 'slipping through the net'. This is fearmongering.

Alright.

Can you help me lynch Keyser now?

Still pushing a lynch but no sound argument.

There is also the lack of any sort of commitment/conviction to a read and we're on page 22. That's also pretty appalling, no?

I have expressed reads and my thoughts from Page 1. Nevertheless, having no firm reads at 22 is non-alignment indicative.

Scum posting.

Please explain, how I am scum-posting. You need to justify your positions/comments.

TL:DR

BlueBloodedToffee has spent nearly all his time tunneling me (anti-town/scummy) presenting no alignment indicative argument. He has discredited my contributions so far, and is actively pushing only my wagon, instead of trying to figure out who is town, who is scum. I do not feel like BlueBloodedToffee is concerned in engaging me - his only concern (based on his miss-reps, discredits, leeching onto other's reads/thoughts on me, loud/empty wagon pushing and non-alignment indicative argument) is to get me miss-lynched. Take away his his tunnel on me, and his ISO is hollow. I cannot see BlueBloodedToffee's town-motivation in his D1 play so far.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Thor665]

I will go over some posts in more detail in a little bit, as I have to chauffer my girlfriend to work.

I wanted to get out there though that BBT came across as a strong townread this page, and TTH as a strong to moderate one. That bumps Kain into a more lynchable position, even though I'm not the biggest fan of the one case I've seen on him (will be one of the posts I discuss later).

That's me.

[Keyser Söze]

I don't know

why we aren't lynching Golden Robster today

. Okay, I do know, probably the partners factor. But there's like

nothing positive

about his slot. All the opportunism and questionable pushing of the BBT slot but not even a more threads of

positive feel

to it.

VOTE: Golden Robster

I currently do not scum-read Golden Robster.
Can you explain to me what makes a

"positive"

feel.
Show me

"All the opportunism and questionable pushing of the BBT slot"

too.

[Thor665]

Pretty similar. The case on Keyser just isn't that great. The fact that he's frustrating me on Kain is also concerning me.

No cases on Day 1 are "that great" though - I am always fascinated that people quest for the "great" ones, they are all based on gut or generally accepted scumtells (or on strength of blowhard posting, my method ) and that's about it. To tell yourself otherwise is self-delusional methinks.

Like, you're presenting associative tells as part of a case on Day 1 with no flips. That is hyper weak, but I'm fine withit because I understand the situation we're in and what we have to work with. But if you're allowed to toss out comments like that in relation to your case, I'm at a loss as to where you get off saying a "he's not scumhunting case" is "not that great". Eh, maybe not, but it is as great as anything else out there, and is better than more than half of them. It is at least a valid statement that can be debated - is or isn't the slot scumhunting? You can at least look over posts and assess that.

The case Ircher raised on BBT (and that you apparently agree with) basically is a complaint that he did a whole thread review (something Ircher just did...so I'm not sure why that freaks him out) and then "tunneled" on Keyser. Since you seem to have issues with Kain and could be accussed of "tunneling" that slot, I am not sure why you find "tunneling/focus" to be a bad thing. Like, that's a case that makes little to no sense to me, even compared to the weak case I am pushing on Keyser which you don't seem to like for not being strong enough, yet you're backing Ircher's case which is worse.

Can you respond with some thoughts on the above in a general sense?

- #129 looks like Kain is hiding behind it being early in the day to avoid discussing his scumreads. Considering that in Kain's completed towngame he voted for scum an hour in and said he was frusturated nobody followed him, he claims to be "a VERY AGGRESSIVE player" as town, and in his towngame he in fact had some fidelity to his early reads despite resistance, I don't buy this.

Did you look at any of his scum games to see if he plays slower as scum than as town?Because if he does then you're selling me super well on this case, but if he doesn't then I'm not sure this point is as relevant as you think.

- Kain pretended in #206 not to have read the thread, to dodge talking about the points Slandaar and TTH made about him. I don't believe that he (or anyone) would make that post if they hadn't read the thread (he also claimed not to have read the thread in #219), and I don't believe that a townie having read the thread would dodge like that (unless there were some underlying plan, which I've seen no sign of). I've already been over this at length.

That does look skeevy.

- There is nothing redeeming about the reads Kain has made, and I don't see any coherent town thought process behind his switching from one to the next.

I (slightly) agree with this, but will admit I am leaning towards a belief that the noted play is what Kain thinks of as him being an aggressive player.

@everyone

: If you don't think Kain is scum, I want to know what in the above you disagree with.

I do think he has a chance to be scum - but my disagreements are noted.

[Keyser Söze]

Aquanim ISO

Aquanim actively challenging a read: (post 91)

Masquerade doesn't seem to be interested in pushing anything

or

getting information with which to push anything. All I see is a fairly generic question of KainTepes:

Agreed.

Anyone around for a chat?

What do you think?

What part of that do you disagree with?

If you have an explanation for Kain's play besides him being scum flailing or a deliberate troll, you're going to have to sell me on it.

@Phoenix Wright

: Can I get some thoughts from you? You pick what.

If anyone besides Kain doesn't understand why I'm voting him, feel free to ask.

Who do you think is a better lynch?

@Phoenix Wright

: Can I get some thoughts from you? You pick what.

This is not active lurking, this is

inquisitive-play

- asking for opinions, open for questions, open for his position/opinion to be challenged, searching for answers. Aquanim doesn't attack players thinking he has the absolute right answer. If someone has an opposite understanding to him, he doesn't rush in with a strong scum-read/vote, Aquanim wants to be persuaded otherwise.

Aquanim sharing with us his throught-process: (post 313).

I can feel Aquanim's frustration with the KainTepes slot and popsofctown's defence: (post 372, post 380, post 396)

Aquanim's final conclusion on KainTepes:

The more I think about it, the more it rings true with me as scum mentality.

And in the end... if he's a deliberate troll then I will not feel bad about lynching him even if he flips town.

Aquanim attacks KainTepes' vote on my slot (yet another non-alignment indicative reason/anti-town being pushed):

VOTE: KEYSER

DIE KEYSERRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! YOU ARE A MEAN PERSON!!!!

Of all the people in this game, Keyser is not a "mean person", and I don't see how anybody can honestly come to that conclusion.

Aquanim is not surface reading, he is actively looking at motive: (post 486, post 488, post 491).

Town read

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: A wall that is mostly game theory - the salient point is in my answer to Keyser below, just read that for TL:DR

Yes, too long, did not read

why not help me put Keyser to L-1 to

force a claim

? That could be a bit more

entertaining

and give us something new to debate also.

If you cannot see why I think this mentality/idea is anti-town then there is no point engaging you in regard your "let's-force-a-roleclaim-for-entertainment-and-masterdebation-lolz" plan.

I find it especially tactically abhorrent the fact you have not fully caught up, but are willing others to force me to L-1/claim, without providing any thoughts yourself.

Feels empty to me as a slot.

This does not say anything. Instead of saying everything I write is empty, please state which points you agree or disagree with. I was not satisfied with mn's reads, neither am I yours.

So I would suggest catching up please.

Tell me where I am wrong, this is a team game. Just saying I'm an empty slot and pushing people to force me to L-1/roleclaim does nothing for me (productive communication).


Let's look at your 3 recent conclusions:

I wanted to get out there though that BBT came across as a strong townread this page,

I disagree with this - show me "strong townread". Convince me BlueBloodedToffee is 'strong' town.

and TTH as a strong to moderate one.

Yes, I share this read. Show me how you got there.

That bumps Kain into a more lynchable position, even though I'm not the biggest fan of the one case I've seen on him (will be one of the posts I discuss later).

Why/how was KainTepes promoted to a "lynchable position"? Because your town read(s) support that wagon?

I do think he has a chance to be scum - but my disagreements are noted.

So what is your conclusion so far on KainTepes?

[Thor665]

I find it especially tactically abhorrent the fact you have not fully caught up, but are willing others to force me to L-1/claim, without providing any thoughts yourself.

I have provided many thoughts. In fact you are quoting many thoughts I have offered and disagreeing with me about my plan to put you to L-1.
You can't disagree with my thoughts AND claim I don't have any in the same breath without your post looking very empty.
Which it does.

This does not say anything. Instead of saying everything I write is empty, please state which points you agree or disagree with.

It is difficult to agree/disagree with points I find empty.
That's kind of the point.

So I would suggest catching up please.

Your suggestion is noted and dismissed.

Let's look at your 3 recent conclusions:

Okay (also known as thoughts - f which you claim I'm not offering any).

I disagree with this - show me "strong townread". Convince me BlueBloodedToffee is 'strong' town.

Judging by the vote counts I have no need to do so - you're far more likely to be lynched than he is, and my goal was to state my belief, not sell it.

Yes, I share this read. Show me how you got there.

By reading his posts and getting a gut reaction to them.
Again, I am more interested in talking about my scum read (you) and how you're doing nothing then in trying to explain my town reads (which are not under heavy attack) to a player I think is scum.
I want the conversation to be about you and how you should be lynched for doing nothing.
You're trying to distract from that with minutiae and starting "discussions" about things that don't need to be discussed.
No. This is empty.

Why/how was KainTepes promoted to a "lynchable position"? Because your town read(s) support that wagon?

Yes - I tend to lend more credence to slots I think are town then to slots I don't think are town, and the fact both of my town reads in the game (and Aqua who is a slight town lean and offering a case) all have issue with the Kain slot makes me tend to be far more willing to consider lynching the slot then I would be if, say, everyone pushing Kain was a scum read of mine.
Why, do you play differently than that?

I do think he has a chance to be scum - but my disagreements are noted.

So what is your conclusion so far on KainTepes?

It would be the conclusion you literally are quoting.
That's like quoting my screen name and asking me what I'd like to be called...okay *maybe* there is some confusion there...but it seems strange to have any.

I mean, seriously, what part of "he's more lynchable, and I do think he has a chance to be scum" equates to "Thor is lacking a conclusion about his read on Kain"?
That is the definition of a conclusion.
Again, this is why your posts feel empty to me - you're making a lot of noise and thrashing around, but it doesn't feel like you're reading things, and it also appears to be your goal to bog us down in needless repetition and meaningless side discussion rather than advancing your own beliefs.

Your entire last post is a valid representation of my case against you.
I hope you understand my issue now, but I suspect I will instead get a repeat of more of the same.