Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!


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Post Post #600 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:03 am

Post by SirCakez »

Votecount 1.9

Image

Keyser Soze (4) - Thor665, GuyFawkes, BlueBloodedToffee, Boonskies
Ircher (2) - Golden Robster, KainTepes
Thor665 (1) - massive
GuyFawkes (1) - TellTaleHeart
Boonskies (1) - Slandaar
KainTepes (1) - Aquanim
Golden Robster (1) - popsofctown

Not voting (2) - Keyser Soze, Ircher

(expired on 2016-03-13 08:31:00) remain until day end
Last edited by SirCakez on Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Post #601 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:07 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 597, Aquanim wrote:What is your read on KainTepes?

Don't have one, what's yours?

In post 597, Aquanim wrote:I think Keyser's probably town.

I don't find him very townish at all, he's just posting walls without taking actions. Feels empty to me as a slot.
Why do you town read him?

In post 598, Keyser Söze wrote:I agree that wagons are useful information reference points but your vote-motivation to "force a claim" is
anti-town
. But thanks for being honest :giggle:

If you;

1. Agree that wagons are useful info points.
and (I presume)
2. Agree that a claim should be made before someone is lynched.

Then could you explain to me why a wagon for info that leads to a claim is
anti-town

Because I'd love to hear how that works.

Now, if I was saying "let's wagon up people I town read and force multiple people to claim on Day 1 randomly" then (maybe) you would have an argument.
But I'm not.
So what is your argument?

In post 597, Aquanim wrote:
I do not understand
why L-1/lynching/claiming is even being discussed right now... :shifty:

What do you think is the appropriate time to start discussing lynching scum?
I vote Page 1.
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Post Post #602 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:16 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 593, Thor665 wrote:
In post 591, Ircher wrote:Let's not lynch until everyone has caught up, pls & ty.

What does lynching have to do with L-1 and a claim exactly?

Also, if people want to be caught up before a lynch, they should get caught up.

Not responding to the top half..

As to the bottom -
YOU CAN'T BE CAUGHT UP WHEN YOU JUST REPLACED IN.
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Post Post #603 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:22 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 601, Thor665 wrote:Then could you explain to me why a wagon for info that leads to a claim is
anti-town

Wagons are useful to see how people react to votes being on them (and seeing who opposes or supports the wagon). But forcing votes onto a wagon to purely get a roleclaim is anti-town.

If a player is put to L-1 because there are scum-cases attached to those votes that is very useful.

However, your plan to make people jump onto my wagon purely to get me to L-1/roleclaim does not encourage discussion/reactions as both town and scum can add empty sheep votes onto my wagon. How can I differentiate the opportunistic scum votes from the blind sheep town votes following your anti-town plan - it is butchery of logic and pro-town play. Your vote is currently on me. I was not satisfied with mn's reason for being on my wagon. What is your motivation/reason?
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Post Post #604 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:25 am

Post by Aquanim »

In post 601, Thor665 wrote:
In post 597, Aquanim wrote:What is your read on KainTepes?

Don't have one, what's yours?

Do you not have one because you haven't looked, or because your read is null?
We shape ourselves, one game at a time.
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Post Post #605 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:25 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

Point in case:
In post 587, Boonskiies wrote:Meh. Why not?

VOTE: Keyser


Boonskiies has followed your anti-town roleclaim plan. This tells me nothing. Is Boonkiies opportunistic scum or a blind sheep?

I would rather Boonskiies present why he thinks I am scum.
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Post Post #606 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:47 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 574, Keyser Söze wrote:
Part Two: GuyFawkes ISO re-read next.


In post 409, GuyFawkes wrote:KainTepes is like performance art and I think its fantastic. he could be scum but I see no need to worry about him yet. I think it's more likely scum is pushing his lynch

This post holds 3 positions:
1) KainTepes "could be scum" - but no formed argument.
2) "I see no need to worry about him yet" - has GuyFawkes made an effort to sort KainTepes Day One?
3) "it's more likely scum is pushing his lynch" - GuyFawkes needs to support this accusation, otherwise he should of presented a neutral conclusion.

In post 413, GuyFawkes wrote:
In post 364, massive wrote:Keyser -- remind me again, why you have a bucketful of indicators towards scum-Kain, but aren't going to vote him?

this

VOTE: keyser soze
In post 543, Keyser Söze wrote:Please explain in your own words why you think me not voting my null-read is scum-indicative. Again, this is surface reading - you did not attempt to read my reason for unvoting KainTepes. What is your personal read of KainTepes?


[Note - GuyFawkes' end position on KainTepes: "I'm not convinced he's town but I'm not convinced he's scum either".]

GuyFawkes' comes back to the thread, (his vote is still on me), but the following post just feels like an empty pressure comment to keep the focus on me:
In post 578, GuyFawkes wrote:Keyser, do you remember coming up with an "orgy of evidence" against Kain Tepes? or calling him the easiest lynch you've ever seen? and stating that he will be today's lynch?

'cause if that's how you talk about your null reads I can't wait to see what you say about scum


I do not get the sense that the GuyFawkes-Masquerade slot is trying to sort players. There are no real inquisitive pushes/questions with players. Who has GuyFawkes engaged? His interactions with me are all closed and mocking.

Scum-lean


Show me you care about finding who is scum and who is town. Right now your focus is narrow - I believe that is intentional.
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Post Post #607 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:49 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 581, Slandaar wrote:
In post 574, Keyser Söze wrote:To me, this is a slot that never got started. I cannot see no real drive/earnest endeavor to sort people.

Why this slot and not Phoenix?

I was doing a Masquerade ISO. I will discuss Phoenix Wright later.
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Post Post #608 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:32 pm

Post by KainTepes »

GuyFawkes, where do you think SCUM are on my wagon if you think scum is on my WAGON,, answer this question please,,
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi
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Post Post #609 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:09 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 602, Ircher wrote:Not responding to the top half..

:wink:

In post 602, Ircher wrote:As to the bottom -
YOU CAN'T BE CAUGHT UP WHEN YOU JUST REPLACED IN.

I never claimed to be caught up or not caught up - I do, by inference, appear to be able to play the game and react to it though.
Neither point has any bearing to your original raised issue, nor to my question though - you're kind of talking to me sideways.

Spoiler: A wall that is mostly game theory - the salient point is in my answer to Keyser below, just read that for TL:DR
In post 603, Keyser Söze wrote:Wagons are useful to see how people react to votes being on them (and seeing who opposes or supports the wagon). But forcing votes onto a wagon to purely get a roleclaim is anti-town.

This is your thesis, copy.

In post 603, Keyser Söze wrote:If a player is put to L-1 because there are scum-cases attached to those votes that is very useful.

Why are only cases able to be read as scum or town. Why are not votes? Why are not comments? Why are not attacks? Why are not defenses?
You appear to believe that the only way someone can be read is if they make a case.
Sounds like you'd have a hard time reading most people.
Also - a one word post followed by a vote *is* a "case" in the most wide definition of the word, it's just not a wordy case.

Heck, take my "case" on you. It exists, my reasons are stated, and my logic is being explained multiple times - that is information to read me on. Even if my case is "I don't like your nose" you can read scum and town intent and, even if you for some reason can't/couldn't it *still* leaves wagon analysis for late game and, while we're at it, people avoiding offering their reasoning is *also* something you can read. Like - why are they not making cases...that can have scum and town value just as much as a wall can. And both scum and town do both.

So, either your statement is that you don't understand that things other than a "Case" can be scum/town read.
Or you're being obtuse to try to pretend like my push to get you lynched is inherently "bad" simply because I am honest about having a weak case on you.
Basically you're defending yourself by complaining that I'm not playing "good" while ignoring that I am playing with a lot of info.

In post 603, Keyser Söze wrote:However, your plan to make people jump onto my wagon purely to get me to L-1/roleclaim does not encourage discussion/reactions as both town and scum can add empty sheep votes onto my wagon.

Well, it's true that empty votes could be added.
I fail to see why we couldn't discuss them though - what about my method prevents that?

In post 603, Keyser Söze wrote:How can I differentiate the opportunistic scum votes from the blind sheep town votes following your anti-town plan

How would you differentiate between a true town case on you and a vile scum case on you?
By reading it, analyzing motivation, and assessing your value call of the person's purpose.
Y'know, the same way you assess a vote not attached to a case.
All a case does is let you debate "facts" wherein we're in a game lacking many facts and filled with opinions - then people bash opinions, act like they've disproven facts, and claim a "victory" that no one cares about because both sides are doing the same thing. At best it shows who is a better master of debate, not who has a stronger case.

In post 603, Keyser Söze wrote:What is your motivation/reason?

I have stated that I find your posts empty, and have noted that by staying on you I am part of the biggest wagon.
I have noted both of these bits of information before.
I stand by them, I find you to lack scumhunting and to be a likely wagon I can get bigger. As such, I want to lynch you and see who supports or opposes my plan, then maybe we'll lynch you or not, depending on those reactions.


In post 604, Aquanim wrote:Do you not have one because you haven't looked, or because your read is null?

A combination of both - what of him I have read is little, but it is not particularly screaming town or scum to me.
Why, is there part of him I should read that would give me a town/scum vibe on him?
You also didn't answer my question to you - asking your read of him. Why not?

In post 605, Keyser Söze wrote:Boonskiies has followed your anti-town roleclaim plan. This tells me nothing. Is Boonkiies opportunistic scum or a blind sheep?

I would rather Boonskiies present why he thinks I am scum.

Then why didn't you ask him directly?
You're trying to win an argument here - not assess alingment in me or Boon.
That's why I want you lynched, and that's why your complaint about the case I have on you is empty.
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Post Post #610 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:19 pm

Post by Ircher »

Whoops, wrong post;
@Mod --)> Could you delete that


Deleted it.
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Post Post #611 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:19 pm

Post by Ircher »

Spoiler: Mini 1769 Game Notes
1. In post , Kein trying to get everyone to lynch GR because he is trying to avoid a vote. -
Ugh.... this guy...... Anyway, I'm taking this as non-alignment-indicative as Kein is new here, but just wanted to point out that the game is still in RVS here, and people tend to fool around in RVS. In other words, GR hasn't done anything worth mentioning yet as he is simply fooling around, etc. -
Null-Indicative


2. In posts , , , , , and , mn expresses a strong scumread on GR. -
Not sure what to say here, but the fact he is unwilling to share about his past meta () makes me think this is a mafia slot. Not sure if I'd call it a bus or an attempt on a townie though...... -
Scum-Indicative


3.
As of , I get a general town vibe from Keyser. His interrogation of mn seems reasonable and normal from this slot. -
Town-Indicative


4. GR expresses a dislike of Keyser in . He states Keyser, not mn is overreacting, and Keyser's dialogue seems forced. -
I must disagree. Also, you state Keyser took mn's comment seriously in RVS. The way I see it, Keyser saw it as a regular RVS thing and was suspicious of Aqua's jump. However, mn's responses made Keyser wonder if mn was actually serious, so Keyser investigated further. () Mn responds with to Keyser, so that actually makes me suspect of you as your jump on Keyser seems a bit opportunistic. I am willing to give leeway, as this probably a miscommunication error, so -
Null-Scum Indicative


5. Masq provides a nice summary of what I just said and some in . -
Accurate and not warped imo. Personally like the post. -
Null-Town Indicative


6. Personally disagree with my predecessor's Mn townread and Masq scumread in .

7. by OceanWind is fairly nice and thought out.

8. Pops votes mn in for being "the most recent post". -
Really, 4 pages in & you don't have time? Why did you join in the first place? The fact you vote mn for a completely random reason (ok, not 100% random) just reads as scum not even trying imo. This does NOT read as too busy town. -
Scum-Indicative


9.
Good points brought up in by Aqua subsequently followed by a well-thought out response by Keyser in . -
Town-Indicative for both


10. In by Phoenix, Phoenix tells Keyser that mn is looking for reactions. -
Ah, that gives me a slightly different perspective on mn; I wasn't sure what he was aiming at, but this makes sense. -
Null-Town-Indicative; Reevaluate mn read


11. Lol, I could agree with

12.
As of , BBT, Massive, and TTH automatically get a slight scumread for not actively trying to participate in the game. Though, I must admit, Massive tends to generally lurk anyway.


13. In , Aqua calls Masq out and points out that he hasn't said anything of substance lately -
I mostly concur with that -
Scum-Indicative for Masq


14. is the first time I've seen Keyser react under pressure. He goes on to chainsaw(?) Phoenix. Instead of defending himself, he goes straight in for the knife kill. -
Not sure what to say here. All of us have stress levels/frustration levels and we all respond differently. Keyser generally posts long, analytical posts. This post is rather agitated and has a harsh tone to it on the otherhand. I kinda like his arguments though -- aka, Keyser seems to keep his logical ability even when he's frustrated. -
Null-Indicative; Null-Scum Indicative for Phoenix


15. I honestly didn't notice that GR practically shut down the Kain wagon, but Keyser points this out in after a statement by TTH in -
I remember the last game I played, Mini 1755. This reason was probably the biggest reason why scum got lynched D1 --> we had a nice early wagon going then Raskol comes in and literally derails by claiming we were trying to lynch it and we were at L-1. Anyway, that leads me to this conclusion -
Null-Town Indicative (Keyser, TTH); Scum-Indicative (Golden)


16.
@Kain - () You're not a troll. Your simply a VI/Mafiascum newbie.


17. Good analytical post by TTH in -
I must vehemently disagree with the Keyser read though. I see little noise and a lot of scumhunting from the slot. Just my two-cents on the matter. -
Null-Town-Indicative


18. Pops accuses Keyser of trying too hard to contribute & avoiding an alignment indicative discussion (in his referring to -
THIS is the guy we should be lynching; the one who lurks all day and then tries to paint something that completely isn't alignment indicative as alignment indicative. -
Very Scum-Indicative


19. From to , BBT finally chimes in & gives his thoughts for...... THE ENTIRE THREAD??????? He also pushes a strong anti-Keyser case. -
This slot's scum, no doubt about of it. You aren't even willing to commit to thread, over 15 pages and you are JUST NOW reading the ENTIRE thread???? Your Keyser case is awful, the first problem being that Keyser has been actively trying to solve the game and scumhunt. His questions and comments all seem to have a genuine purpose bhind them, and Idc if he's wrong --> I learned a few things last game, one of them being your consistent reads are probably what you think they are. -
Almost Confirmed-Scum-Indicative
(Haven't seen Keyser in a few pages though.....)


20.
Also scum-reading Guy Fawkes & Aqua as of


21.
Eh, scratch that, I like Pops more for scum as of


22. Kein believes there to be two scum in Keyser, Aqua, Ocean (me), and TTH as reaffirmed in -
I can affirm that I am not scum. My guess as far as OceanWind is he either left the site or just couldn't keep up; if you didn't notice, the slot hadn't said asnything in 300+ pages. That should be a clue it's not scum lurking. Keyser is definitely on my town list. And Aqua was great at the beginning, meh in the middle, a bit scummy towards 457, and back to towny as of now. Aka, I'm pretty sure Aqua is town. So, I don't believe in your statement Kein, esp. when you are impossible to read and are constantly OMGUSing players. -
Null-Indicative


23.
- Are you referring to Mini 1755? Tbh, you were reading as scum pretty badily early on, but PoE nets you a neutral read.


24. Kein states he finds the Keyser Wagon opportunistic in -
I partially agree with you; not everyone is being opportunistic with the wagon, like yourself, but some people are..... staring at BBT....... -
Null-Indicative for Kein; More Scum-Indicative for BBT


25. To :
Bye!


26.
@Kein in - On the contrary, Mafia will tend to bus their partners @ the opportunistic moment. Aka, they get a buddy lynched for towncred. Furthermore, while somewhat uncommon, it is not impossible for town to White-Knight another town player (defend heavily). In fact, an example can be found in D1 of Mini 1755


27. Beat the mod in

28. While it's kinda funny with the replace-outs, it's also kinda mean to th mod. In other words, one joke about it is funny, but keep it at that --> Don't make the mod's job more stressful than it is.

29. Thor wants Keyser to claim in -
Much too early for that; also, you JUST replaced in and already want Keyser to claim???????????? Idk about everyone else, but that flat out reads as SCUM-MOTIVATED to me; there is
zero
town motivation to getting a player to claim
when you haven't even caught up yet!
-
Very Scum-Indicatove


30.
In response to : I don't like lynches & I don't like the possibility that someone gets hammered before I get my two-cents in. Also, was skimming & didn't really read your post, all I saw was Boon putting in a vote & remembering that Keyser was the top wagon. I didn't care to lookup the vote number, just wanted to make sure people didn't lynch til everyone had a chance to catch up.


31. In , Thor wants to know how running up someone to claim is anti-town. -
I can tell you why -- it gives Mafia a confirmed PR to shoot at night. In other words, you 1) Nullified any info gained from possible NKA 2) Just allowed a town PR to get killed before they could even use their ability. Tell me what
isn't
anti-town about that.


Spoiler: Reads
Confirmed Town
(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM
KeinTapes (99%) - He soft-claimed PR and has yet to been CC'd. That means he's conformed town.

Likely Town
(85%-97% Confidence)
Keyser Soze (97%) - I have seen nothing that isn't town-motivated from this slot.

Leaning Town
(60%-84% Confidence)
Aqua (65%) - Pretty decent start, meh middle, then later when engaged with GuyFawkes, I kinda scumread the slot, and later, I started town-reading the slot again.

Null
(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)
Boonskiies (0%) - Who'd he replace again?
Massive (0%) - Being inactive is unfortunately part of his meta, and the last game I played with him, he provided a bit more content as scum. He doesn't seem to be misleading anyone this game.... actually, it doesn't seem he is doing anything at all right now.....
Phoenix (+10%) - Slight townread at the start of the game, but has diminshed greatly as I don't remember what this slot has done since then.

Neutral
(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Slandar (+55%) - Like TTH, I am having a hard time deciding here. Again, I see little manipulation from this slot and active, constructive gameplay, so I lean pretty close to a town-lean.
TellTale Heart (+55%) - Bit hard to make up my mind here, hasn't done anything extremely towny but nor has he done anything extremely scummy. I'm leaning towards a townread here as he has been active & seems to give rationale thought this game.
Golden Robster (-40%) - Mainly PoE; his start was kinda scummy but he has begun to do a bit better.

Leaning Scum
(60%-75% Confidence)
Popsctown (-60%) - I really cannot remember, but there was one part where I got mild scum vibes from this slot.
Thor (-75%) - For just suggesting to running people to L-1 and forcing claims. Mn doesn't help this slot's towniness.

Likely Scum
(76%-100% Confidence)
GuyFawkes (-80%) - Meh start and then went downhill ever since he replaced in.
BBT (-95%) - Massive lurking at the beginning then around 400, I don't remember, starts tunneling Keyser. His tunnel seems to have no genuine basis to it, and seems more like scum desparately aiming for a mislynch.


Our inevitable lynch imho ought to be BBT, but I want to do a bit poking first....
VOTE: Massive - Stop staying under the radar, prod-dodging, and contributing zero info. At least in my last game with you, you actually said stuff of substance from time to time.

Last thing: I do realize that with my strong townread of Keyser and constant and consistent town-reading of Keyser throughout this post will inevitably lead to an association case if Keyser were to flip. Please don't make assumptions until then though.
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Post Post #612 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:22 pm

Post by Ircher »

Note: Above post (which the mod will hopefully delete) has nothing to do with my role pm for this game or any other game I am in.
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Post Post #613 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:24 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 611, Ircher wrote:Last thing: I do realize that with my strong townread of Keyser and constant and consistent town-reading of Keyser throughout this post will inevitably lead to an association case if Keyser were to flip. Please don't make assumptions until then though.

*cough*
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Post Post #614 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:26 pm

Post by Ircher »

@Thor
Read the post in its entirety
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Post Post #615 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:40 pm

Post by Thor665 »

@Ircher - you're distancing from a 97% sure town read.
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Post Post #616 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:50 pm

Post by Ircher »

For association purposes, I am in a way
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Post Post #617 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:16 pm

Post by GuyFawkes »

In post 608, KainTepes wrote:GuyFawkes, where do you think SCUM are on my wagon if you think scum is on my WAGON,, answer this question please,,

I said scum were pushing your lynch and I think keyser is that scum
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Post Post #618 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:21 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 616, Ircher wrote:For association purposes, I am in a way

Why are you nervousenough to call that out about a 97% town read but not a 99% or whatever your rank below him was? What made Keyser the special one?
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Post Post #619 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:33 pm

Post by Ircher »

Cuz lots of you scumread him for I'm not totally sure why reasons
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Post Post #620 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:34 pm

Post by Ircher »

Plus the Kein read is based off him claiming PR, so..... I don't think an association case could be made there
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Post Post #621 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:11 pm

Post by TellTaleHeart »

Hi Thorella! :3
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Post Post #622 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:14 pm

Post by TellTaleHeart »

In post 611, Ircher wrote:KeinTapes (99%) - He soft-claimed PR and has yet to been CC'd. That means he's conformed town.


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Post Post #623 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:18 pm

Post by TellTaleHeart »

I'm actually kind of with Ircher in thinking BBT might be scum. :(
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Post Post #624 (ISO) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:18 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 619, Ircher wrote:Cuz lots of you scumread him for I'm not totally sure why reasons

Why should that matter if you're 97% sure he's town?

In post 620, Ircher wrote:Plus the Kein read is based off him claiming PR, so..... I don't think an association case could be made there

Why not?
Someone claiming a PR and being hard defended hardly removes association, especially if the person in question is scum, didn't claim much, and was hard believed by someone for no other reason than "he claimed!". That's a pure association case as far as I can tell.

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